Healthcare in Europe

[busymom]

Since it is touted by some as being the most superior option...I thought I'd share my experience:

I lived for nearly a decade of my adult life..in both Germany and Northern Ireland (a part of the UK).

In Germany, the system is set up to allow for anyone to insure themselves either privately or through several different govt. insurance plans. Let me be clear though....everyone is MANDATED to choose coverage and the only way you can choose how much or little you pay is based on whether you choose a private or govt sponsored (but a company) plan.

Individuals insured privately get individual rooms and the kind of care we are used to here. People on the govt plan (like I was when I lived there) get rooms with many people in them and care by resident physicians instead of attendings most of the time. Still...I would have never been denied care for any disease or problem while there.

That system is now in financial difficulty, btw....and the premiums there for both types of plans are expensive enough that many Americans would not be happy with it.

I also lived in the UK.....and though it is a much cheaper system, paid for by taxes (again, not an amount you can choose)....there are extremely long waiting lists and quality of care CAN be an issue. Our good friends from over there had to come to the US to have their 3 year old treated for a kidney condition that they couldn't get care for there....because the child wasn't allowed to see a registrar or a pediatric urologist (too expensive). Sadly, the pediatrician was an idiot...and they had no other recourse.

My husband is a physician who worked in the system and he found it sometimes impossible to get scans for people who really, really needed them immediately. He also experienced being called to a code and the medications not being on the cart ala "sorry, we don't have anymore".

That is something scary to think about.

Healthcare is not free....and I know that you want the best healthcare available when you become ill. Do you want to fight for a PET scan? Wait so long for heart surgery that you die while on the list?

This is a very complex issue...We should be looking at all countries that offer universal coverage, researching the pros and cons and then coming up with a plan that will work best here in America. I think Hillary Clinton has that plan for right now.

[dkf]

1. Looks to me like the problem is a shortage of doctors and staff?

If there were capacity for scans, wouldn't they be done promptly?

[busymom]

2. There aren't enough scanners.

Scanners are horrendously expensive.....In all of N. Ireland there was a single MRI/CT/PET scanner...in Belfast.

That's one of the reasons that govt. sponsored health plans scare me. We all know medicare and medicaid refuse to pay any more than pennies on the dollar. We will not be able to continue to invest in the newest equipment and technology without...money. AND...healthcare professionals also want to be compensatd for their work. Unless a guarantee can be made that physicians won't leave medical school with 150-200k in student loan debt and then won't have to buy into their practices AND purchase insurance programs for a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year....we can't go to a low paying govt. plan either.

[nancyharris]

4. This is why

23% of the doctors currently in the United States are foreign-born. My personal physician (who is absolutely wonderful BTW) is from China.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

5. And, they get paid much, much more, as well.

Since their training didn't leave them horribly in debt, so they can now reap the fiscal rewards of providing for profit medical care here in the U.S.

Nothing against foreign-born doctors, the best cardiologist with whom I've ever worked was from Iran.

I'm just pointing out another reason that they're practicing here.

[Maddy McCall]

10. An article I read says that there are seven locations in NI that provide scans.

[busymom]

12. It has been 11 years since we left NI

and things have certainly changed.

That being said, I live in a town of 60,000 and we have a total of 6 MRI scanners in this area alone.....2 for a private radiology clinic, 2 for a health clinic and 2 at the hospital. There are 2 PET scanners here....I have no idea how many CT scanners.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

3. "fight for a PET scan? Wait so long for heart surgery that you die...?"

These things happen every day here for those with and without "insurance." In fact, there are many that wouldn't even be able to think of getting on the "waiting lists" or even know they need a PET scan because they'd have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars just to arrive at that point.

After spending almost thirty years in health care, myself, I have had the opportunity to work with colleagues who came here from countries throughout Europe, among other countries on other continents.

They are frankly appalled that turning away care is the norm, not the exception. One is a friend who came from the public health sector in the UK to the privately funded insurance care here, and tells me that family and friends in the U.K. are stunned by the way health is "managed" here.

A complex issue, indeed, and beginning any discussion by dismissing out of hand any other country's government health plan because it isn't perfect seems an unproductive start to this hugely important discussion.

edit, spelling and geography clarification

[sandnsea]

6. I really really need an MRI

and I can't get it because I can't pay for it. Tell your husband he never even sees the people who need health care, and can't afford it, in this country because that's the way this system is set up.

[busymom]

13. My husband would not only see you....

He would fight for your bill to be comped by the system and would probably not bill you for his services. He was raised in Europe and can not fathom that there isn't universal coverage here. In case you are wondering (which I'm sure you aren't), he supports Hillary BECAUSE her plan requires mandatory coverage.

[sandnsea]

25. pssht

His billing office protects him from people like me. He doesn't even know we exist.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. sandnsea

:hug:

[busymom]

27. Nope. Wrong again.

My husband chose to work for a large, catholic healthcare system. He has gone in many nights after midnight to treat people who are admitted and have no insurance coverage...and does it without blinking an eye. You are very wrong....but that just shows that you haven't read what I've written.

[sandnsea]

30. Oh, you mean emergency care

Right. Those of us who need routine care don't get seen because the billing dept of Catholic health care keeps us out too. You don't understand how it really works for the uninsured and underinsured.

[busymom]

36. No...now get off of your pity pot.

My husband is a specialist that provides specialty care...and he will get up out of a dead sleep to go in and help whomever needs his brand of care, regardless of whether they are black or white/male or female/rich or poor/ insured or not...AND...he is one of the biggest advocates within this particular healthcare system for those who are uninsured.

As I have said multiple times, my husband comes from europe where mandatory universal coverage is a requirement for everyone and he does NOT understand why so many Americans are denied a basic human right.

So go shit on someone else.

[sandnsea]

39. Listen to Michelle Obama

You don't know what you're talking about.

[busymom]

42. Listen to yourself.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

47. sandnsea, didn't you hear?

You must get off the pity pot, there's only so much of her physician husband to go around.

[busymom]

51. well,

it's a good thing he has a better heart than you guys do....because despite your opinions he will still see you.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

52. What a guy.

[Solon]

37. Dude, I understand how you feel...

I'm going through the same shit, the orthopedic surgeon I was able to afford to visit ONCE, wants me to get an MRI for my shoulder. Can I afford that? Hell no, and that's BEFORE the surgery he thinks I need.

[sandnsea]

44. I am really lucky

I finally got subsidized insurance, but I still have to worry about every office visit because I don't know what is going to be paid and what won't. I'm waiting to see if they will pay for an MRI on my ear and so far, no luck. And then there's the 20% after the surgery, and I have to wonder how the hell much that is going to be and I know you do too. And I know half this country, at least, lives like that. I don't know what all the answers will be, but I sure know some of the things that aren't. Mandates before the problems are solved is sure not on the list.

[busymom]

41. And btw..

I do undersand how it works for the uninsured and underinsured because I have been there/done that too.

Do you think though that nurses, doctors, lab techs, radiology techs, ultrasound techs, PA's, NP's etc should just not get paid either? How much of their services should they give away?

My husband will see whomever, whenever necessary if they are ill....no matter what...no questions asked. And frankly, if you were ever to need his services, he would do the same for you for as long as you needed him.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

7. My cousin had to go to Mexico to get an EKG

He worked for a along time in a law office in California where the pace was unbelievably hectic (about 50-60 hours a week). Over the years he developed enormous stress and a heart condition. He was insured through his employment but the insurance company refused to allow an EKG test. He had to travel down to Mexico on his own dime and found a heart specialist who was educated in Europe. He received excellent care, a battery of tests besides the EKG, and cheap pharmaceuticals that saved his life. Overall, he paid less than one-third what he would have paid in the U.S. Sure, this is just an anecdote but I'll bet it represents the situation of a lot of others as well. He went around and around with the insurance company and they were intransigent.

[Bad Thoughts]

8. Thanks to Bismarck

We need health care. But it takes time to set up properly. In Germany, the origins of health care were in the Second Reich, with Bismarck's drive to win workers over from the SPD. It was perfected over the succeeding decades. Mandating complete health care all at once, though, is a much larger step, one frought with greater political challenges.

[Vinca]

9. Are there many people in the UK or Germany anxious to trade

their health care systems for one like ours? How many pay $1,200 - $1,500 a month (last unaffordable quote we got) with a huge deductible and the possibility an insurance clerk will deny coverage when you need it most? How many people in those countries go bankrupt over medical bills? I'm uninsured and suspect I need a hip replacement. Is there any waiting list for me in the U.S.? No. Pass the Aleve.

[busymom]

14. Where's the beef?

They don't pay $1200-$1500/month, BUT....they also have long waiting lists and YES, we have a friend who has had to come here for pediatric urology care for their daughter.

[Vinca]

32. Would an uninsured American kid get pediatric urology care?

Nope. Not unless Mom and Dad hold bake sales and car washes. What a country.

[BooScout]

11. Yes, the UK sometimes has....

....long waiting lists but you can also take out private coverage in addition to your NHS coverage and bump up the list if you feel you need to. And the premiums for private coverage are very cheap in comparison to American premiums.

Still, it's much better than 50 million having no health insurance.

And socialised medicine must be doing something right because life expectancies throughout Europe are higher than the US.

[busymom]

15. I'll be honest....

I was really horrified by the nursing care in Germany....they did it on the cheap. Nurses there aren't even qualified to start IV's etc.....They are not well-paid like in the US and the care really is substandard. My fil died because the nurses didn't change the dressing on his wounds....or help him to the bathroom after surgery. He became septic and that was the cause of his death. This happened only a few years ago. It was shocking to me. If he had had better nursing care, he would still be here.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

16. Are you a doctor yourself? Or a nurse?

[synesthesia]

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[synesthesia]

17. *

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[no name no slogan]

19. I also lived in the UK,

and I have to say that, post-Thatcher, the system was a shambles.

However, most people who want single-payer universal care DO NOT WANT a system like The UK's. They want a system more like those in Scandinavia or Canada, where the government is the sole insurer, and the system itself is still privately owned.

The closest to this in current debates is HR 676 (http://www.hr676.org).

[busymom]

22. What I don't understand is that we can't talk honestly about this here...

Even at DU, a supposed hub of the democratic ideals, people have preconceived ideas without experiencing the system or knowing what it is like. Healthcare is a huge issue and it needs to be debated and discussed. Neither Hillary or Barack are presenting the country with the final plan as it will be when it goes through the proper channels in the House/Sentate committees, etc. But we have to start talking about it and being open and honest about what does and does NOT work in countries that already provide universal coverage.

Jeesh. Why re-invent the wheel when we can look to other countries that have systems in place and then NOT make their mistakes...

[no name no slogan]

24. I think a lot of it has to do with the money

there's a lot of poeple who make a lot of money off the current system-- and they give A LOT of money to politicians in both parties. IMHO this is the main reason the whole topic of a true single-payer universal health care plan stays off the table.

I liken it to a medical-industrial complex. Sadly, I think it describes our system to a tee.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

28. I just noticed several posts referencing experiences in other health care systems than this one.

We've been talking about it long before your arrival and BTW welcome to DU.

[Maddy McCall]

35. Indeed. And there are NUMEROUS DUers in Europe who would disagree with the OP...

and who have related their experiences as, overall, positive.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

54. HR 676. Thanks for the reminder.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

29. Did I mention, Blue Cross/Blue Shield also sucks?

[busymom]

31. Blue Cross/Blue Shield

I have had BC/BS for 8 years and have never had a single problem with them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

33. I'm sure you haven't.

[avrdream]

21. The Australian system works quite well but they pay higher taxes here.

Those grumbling about being mandated to get health care coverage (or, God forbid, have it taken out of our wages) don't realize that the payment has to come from somewhere. Ultimately it is cheaper for everyone if everyone is covered for one big reason: people seek out health care EARLIER before the disease process progresses to a more expensive state.

You pay tax on gas, you pay sales tax, tax on cigarettes. Think of it as paying a tax that then turns around and gives you something absolutely amazing (if done correctly).

I think people come here just to grumble because they don't like Hillary for other reasons. She cannot be faulted on her health care plan if people look at it realistically.

BTW, I'm a physician.

[displacedtexan]

23. I've been hospitalized in both England and Germany: Amazing quality care!

I've had exactly the opposite experience as you and your family.

And there was no cost for Xrays, private room, 24/7 nursing care,
and excellent food. I even had a private emergency exam room.

Both times I made a donation to their children's fund.

Then, when my daughter had an ear infection in Uxbridge, England, two years ago
the actual physician came to the emergency room waiting area to greet us. Once again,
no cost for amazing care and the medication.

I saw no one waiting more than 10 minutes, either.

[busymom]

45. I had babies in each country....

I would say that my care was better in the UK to be honest....but I was able to get immediate appointments in Germany.

And...the outcome for my first two pregnancies was actually better in Europe than the outcome of my third delivery in the US. In europe, I had a healthy mom/baby thing...in the US, a medical error was made that caused a problem.

That's me being honest.

[Solon]

34. Are waiting lists exclusive in UHC system? No, I don't think so...

My grandmother had to wait a fucking year to get her knees replaced, and that's here, in the good ole USA. That's with insurance, by the way. Don't peddle that BS here, we already have people who wait for treatment indefinitely, in this country, because they can't afford to pay the bills out of pocket.

[Maddy McCall]

38. It's common to have to wait more than a month for a MRI here, too.

[Solon]

43. Exactly, people seem to think that its exclusive to UHC systems...

its not, it all depends on availability, I would gladly wait a year for my MRI and/or surgery if I was guaranteed to have either. As it is, I've been waiting 3 years and will wait until I die. :(

[busymom]

46. I live in a small area...

and granted...it is not necessarily a reflection of America as a whole, so my opinion is filtered through the lense of my experience here currently. Because the large hospital here is a catholic run organization, and we have 6 MRI scanners in about an 8 mile radius, no one waits here whether they are insured or not.

Again...this is not necessary a reflection of other area in the US and I know that.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

48. It's very much not a reflection of the US as a whole.

P.S. Catholic hospitals won't perform tubal ligations.

[Maddy McCall]

50. So do I. In rural Mississippi.

It takes a month or more to get an appointment at the only hospital here that serves more than 12 counties. With insurance.

I could go to a larger city in the state and get an MRI in a week or two, but that means having to drive 90 miles. And many doctors won't prescribe an MRI at a "competing" hospital or medical establishment.

[gravity]

40. Every health care system has its benefits and drawbacks

America's health care is some of the best in the world if you have the money and insurance.

The challenge is to find a healthcare system that offers that offers everyone adequete coverage, while addressing some of the weaknesses of other universal health care systems.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

49. And accept nothing is perfect. But, it can be a whole lot better here.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

56. "some of the best in the world". That's about right.

[treestar]

53. Individual stories are all so different

Some deny there are lines or any such problems.

A few people will have bad experiences no matter what.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

55. Well, that's a safe statement. Just wading right in there. :-)

[beachmom]

57. Re: Germany. I thought there was one group that falls through the cracks:

Self employed people who don't choose to buy insurance. Most do, of course, but some don't. It also may be kind of like mandated car insurance. There are still people who don't do it -- you can never reach 100%.

That is what a friend of mine told me in Germany.

Also, Germany is a far more regulated country than here. I think the mandates are a non-starter in America.

[dflprincess]

58. The onyl advantage we have ,coming so late to the health care table is that

we can look at all the systems civilized countries have - see what works and what doesn't and hopefully pick from the best.