There's no question Hillary just lost the General Election today.

[stevietheman]

The GOP will be all over her "go after their wages" words like white on rice.

Nominating her would be suicide for the Democratic Party.

[BlackVelvet04]

1. you wish

[The Delegates]

3. Why would we wish?

He is absolutely right. This moment will be used by Mccain for the entire election. And whether it makes sense or not to garnish wagers is irrelevant. Whether it's already done with taxes and social security is irrelevant. The American people don't want to hear that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

Well, just MAYBE Hillary can repeat what she actually did say and not the freakin' LIES you Obama

supporters have been spewing all day. The TRUTH ALWAYS WINS. You and Obama can continue lying through your teeth, but the TRUTH shall prevail...whether you like it or not.

[MoonRiver]

21. Obamaniacs think the garbage they manufacture on DU will somehow trickle down

to the real world. :crazy:

[emilyg]

33. They are sheep.

[f the letter]

74. Not everyone who disagrees with clinton is an obamite sheep

Fuck her health care plan, and his too. Single payer universal health care for all is the only civilized solution. There is no solution for the health care mess that includes the insurance industry.

[CoffeeCat]

30. The truth has come out...

...that Hillary's "I cover everyone" plan only works when she fines or garnishes peoples' wages
for not participating in the plan.

That's the truth.

The delicious irony here, is that Clinton thought she was so smart. She thought that her "I cover everyone"
soundbyte would trump Obama's plan, which does attempt to cover everyone--by severely cutting costs for
low-income earners. Obama didn't quite have the "I cover everyone" soundbyte, like she did. Instead of
going for the lame soundbyte which would please the muddled masses, he crafted a solution that actually
does something to help low-income earners to afford health insurance. He drastically cut costs through
subsidies.

Clintons plan offers "tax deferments". Silly, beyond repair. You tell that single mom, making $1,000 a
year, that NEXT YEAR--she can claim her health-care cost on her taxes! This does nothing to help
people PAY NOW. Obama's plan does. It's a decent good start, and an honest one at that.

Everyone may not be covered under Obama's plan. He's stated that it's not "universal coverage" but
a step in that direction.

What Hillary didn't tell anyone, was that under her "I cover everyone!" soundbyte--lies a mandate. Her
mandate will not cover everyone and she knows it. Her plan does not address the high cost of health
insurance. It just mandates that people buy it and....WHOPEEEE! You're all covered!

The truth has been revealed about Hillary's plan, that's for sure. And the truth is that everyone
WON'T be covered under her plan. That's obvious to anyone.

[mcg]

42. "would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it"

From the article
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080203/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp_30

'Clinton said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it, which puts undue pressure on hospitals and emergency rooms. With her proposals for subsidies, she said, "it will be affordable for everyone."'

So such a measure would not apply to a "single mom, making $1,000 a year" nor is it true that it "just mandates that people buy it".

I haven't given this idea much thought, so I won't comment on it, but let's not distort it, that's the republicans' job. I don't think it would be up to her anyway, it would have to be passed by Congress.

Btw, I don't know who I'll vote for in the primary, my state is after Super Tuesday, so it may not matter.

[hfojvt]

69. there's a huge problem there, though

Who decides what I can or cannot afford? Can a $10 an hour worker afford health insurance? What if he/she lives in Chicago or Los Angeles? What if he/she quits their second job?

Plus, to a degree, the truth is not gonna matter. Just like the tax proposal that would have increased taxes on the wealthy in Alabama. The voters voted it down, either because wealthier people outvoted poorer ones, or because the opposition called it a "tax increase" as if it was for everyone.

[in_cog_ni_to]

73. It will be based on a wage earner sliding scale. A multi-millionaire will pay more than

a $200,000 wage earner and a $200,000 wage earner will pay more than a $60,000 wage earner and so on. If someone make NOTHING, they pay NOTHING.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

Everyone's in the system and we all win.

[krkaufman]

87. What about the employers who could afford to pay?

Where is the employer-mandated health coverage? Why is putting the health of one's workers allowed to be a competitive advantage?

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. WRONG. Here...watch the video. She SAID, "NO ONE WILL BE FORCED TO PAY IF THEY CANNOT AFFORD IT."

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

I just watched the video. I heard her say! Stop lying.

[CoffeeCat]

54. Ok then....

So, are you arguing that "wage garnishment"--Hillary's stated idea--is not a form of "forced payment"??

Or are you arguing now that she's not doing "wage garnishment" which she clearly said was an option, as she
spoke today on "Meet The Press".

The Princess of Parse really screwed herself with this one. Her rationalizers
are making a mockery of the English language.

[in_cog_ni_to]

57. Everyone has to contribute or it won't work. Do you want Universal Health Care, or not?

It's a simple question. She COULD garnish wages of people who CAN AFFORD IT, but she did not say that is what she's going to do. It was only her throwing out ideas.

[CoffeeCat]

68. That's not what she said this morning...

And furthermore, of course I want universal coverage. What Dem doesn't???

That's not the point.

Hillary has a MANDATE. That means she forces everyone into the system. People
want to know how that is done. She can't pay for healthcare for EVERYONE.

She does not have an answer. It appears.

You can mandate that every American own a Prius. That doesn't mean that everyone
will own one. It's logical to ask...how will you make certain that everyone has
a Prius?

She has no answer. To me, this signals that she doesn't have a serious plan.

She must answer the question, "How will you MANDATE that low-income earners and
senior citizens on fixed incomes---buy health insurance---when they can't even
afford to buy medicine, food and heat????"

I'd love an answer.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. Did you watch the video? That's not what she said! Once more...

"No one will have to pay if they cannot afford it." ONLY people who CAN afford it will pay. The entire thing will be based on an income sliding scale. If you make nothing, you pay nothing, but if you are a multi-millionaire you will pay more than a $120,000 wage earner and a $120,000 wage earner will pay more than a $50,000 wage earner.

[CoffeeCat]

76. Ok, help me out with this...

George asked Hillary how people would pay for it, if they couldn't afford it.

She did say that "wage garnishment" was a possibility. She didn't want to say this...George
had to ask her the question at least three times before she admitted it.

I heard her say this, and I know for a fact that she NEVER said wage garnishment was
specifically for higher income earners. That's not what George asked her about.

I Tivo-d it...I'll have to watch it and post the exact quote.

I think history is being re-written here...but I'm willing to look up the entire
quote...

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. The video link is here:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466 The health care discussion starts at 8:50 after the second commercial.

She threw out 2 examples that COULD BE DONE. One was an auto-enrollment plan or wage garnishment, but those were just examples. She did not say she would garnish wages. She also went on to say that "no one would be charged if they couldn't afford it." and "Everyone will be covered under my plan." It will be based on a wage earner sliding scale.

[FlyingSquirrel]

88. Put yourself in the average person's shoes for a second...

They're thinking, "Well I can't afford it!" And then they're thinking, "Who's gonna decide whether I can afford it or not - me or them?" And then they're thinking, "I get screwed no matter what the government does. So obviously the government is gonna say I can afford it whether I can or not."

Especially if they're Republican or leaning that way, they're suspicious of Government taking any more of their hard-earned money away. It doesn't matter if the end result would be that they would be more financially secure in the long run because they would have better medical coverage - these people don't take a long view or think in those terms.

This issue could be exploited so many ways and so effectively by the Repugs who have already pigeonholed Democrats as "the bad guys who want to tax you to death and control you with big government." That much is certain.

[Jed Dilligan]

38. Maybe you could start by repeating it here

with link.

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Here's the video...at -8:50 after the second commercial the health care discussion starts.

ONLY people who CAN afford insurance and won't pay COULD HAVE wages garnered. It was just an example of what CAN BE DONE. She also went on to say that "NO ONE will be FORCED to pay if they cannot afford it."

Go watch the video:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

[Jed Dilligan]

52. Thanks

But I'm still not comfortable letting (what will probably be a Republican) Congress decide what I can afford as a low-to-middle wage worker.

[in_cog_ni_to]

55. Repukes are not going to be controlling Congress. We will have a NICE Majoroty.

Whatever we have to pay, it will be a FRACTION of what private policy owners pay. I pay $560.00 a MONTH for my son and myself. THAT'S VERY PAINFUL, but we have to have insurance. Universal Health Care will be much less, I'm sure.

[Jed Dilligan]

58. I don't think that health insurance should exist

The government should subsidize medicine to make it affordable. Something in between doesn't do anything for me. Taking money away from me to put into a useless HMO-like plan will make me less healthy, because I will not be able to afford the special foods and Chinese medicines that keep me in good health.

I can understand mandating insurance for children. Children are optional. I've opted out, and if I ever decide to opt in I will pay for the kid's health care, through whatever channels.

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. How do you know it's going to be a useless HMO plan?

SOME kind of insurance is better than no insurance, is it not? One extended visit in a hospital and you're bankrupt! Who can afford to pay a $60,000 hospital bill? NOT ME!

[Jed Dilligan]

65. After the Republicans hack it up, there's no way

it will provide quality care to lower-end earners. (I am one of those people, I admit, who think a Hillary candidacy will put a lot of GOPigs in Congress because there will be a large turnout of haters.)

I can't afford to pay a 10K or 60K hospital bill. Whether I buy insurance or not, a catastrophic illness or accident will be the end of me financially. I would rather live well until that happens than pay for basically nothing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. Repukes are NOT going to win Congress. No one is voting for repukes

in this election. Democrats have had TWICE the turnout in the Primaries. Hillary will bring Dems with her. She can beat McCain's ass. They just want you to think she will lose because they FEAR HER. they have thrown so much garbage at her over the years and she's still standing! She went on to win 2 Senate elections and Bill left the WH with a 65% APPROVAL rating! She can and WILL beat McCain. Don't believe the rhetoric they're spewing!

[Jed Dilligan]

72. I don't actually watch MSM news

I listen to people in everyday life. I think the hatred and scorn for Hillary runs deep in this country and affects the great mass of Independents as well as freeper types.

Regardless of that, I doubt even the "moderate" Democrats in Congress will deliver anything but a raw deal to me when it comes down to the nuts and bolts. I'm the perfect prey for this corpo-fascist government, a guy that earns enough money to cover his own shit but is very, very vulnerable to added burdens. They do seem to love a debt-slave.

[krkaufman]

86. well, what did she actually say? n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

12. Yeah, what they want to be is lied to by Obama and his supporters

about unity and bipartisanship that really means anything but that.

[elizm]

2. Her superb judgment at work again. nt

[Dems Will Win]

39. She has a high IQ but a low JQ (Judgement Quotient)

Mandate and "going after people's wages" is the new third rail in politics.

She also lost the nomination...

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Only in your dreams.

Obama is not going to win. The sooner you accept that, the happier you'll be.

[bigtree]

5. are you guys in a club or something?

oh, yeah . . .

[jasmine621]

6. When did she say "going after wages?" nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

11. This morning on Stephanopoulus. I heard it clear as a bell. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. NO YOU DIDN'T! Stop with the freakin' LYING! What she DID say

is:

and she was just givng examples of what she COULD DO, not what she WILL DO....

ONLY people who CAN afford health care and won't buy will have their wages garnished. She didn't say she WOULD do that...she was giving examples of things that COULD BE done. If people who CAN afford health insurance and don't buy it, go to the hospital and can't pay that bill, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK PAYS FOR THAT????!!!! YOU DO! I DO!

STOP LYING.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

37. Sorry, but "go after their wages" was the killer phrase.

BTW, who are these people who can afford health insurance? How many of these mythical deadbeats do you think there are?

Let me guess, you're not self-employed are you? You probably get your insurance through your employer, pay your small part of it, and are blissfully unaware of what the total cost is.

Why don't you call a health insurance agent and have her price an individual or non-group family policy for you. Oh, and be sure to include all those "extras", like coverage for pregnancy and cancer screenings. See how big your deductible would be for the amount you could barely afford. Come back and tell me about it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. No it's not. The KILLER PHRASE was, "No one will be forced to pay if they can't afford it."

I pay $560.00 a freakin' month for health care. A freakin' Private policy. It hurts to pay that, but we have to have it. Don't lecture me about it. OKAY?

You can be damn sure that if I have an opportunity to buy insurance through a Universal Health Care plan that's cheaper, and it HAS TO BE, I will buy it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

59. And what if Hillary Clinton decides you can afford what you're paying now?

You won't be paying less.

[ErnestoG]

61. then GARNISHMENT, here we come!

[in_cog_ni_to]

66. Go watch the video for the TRUTH of what she ACTUALLY said: after second commercial at -8:50

the health care discussion starts.


http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

[ErnestoG]

67. her garnish comment probably just cooked her election goose.

[in_cog_ni_to]

77. No it didn't because she said no one will pay if they can't afford it. The TRUTH always wins

at the end of the day.

A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS. Just remember that'

Everyone is in the system and everyone wins.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. *sigh* It's like we're having 2 different conversations here.

I'll try again:

Mandatory private health insurance =/= universal healthcare

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. No it doesn't. We either want the the 50 million uninsured covered or not. We either want a plan

where EVERYONE can afford health care coverage or we don't. I pay $560.00 a MONTH for a PRIVATE insurance plan and it freakin' HURTS! You cannot tell me that if we have a plan with MILLIONS of people participating, it will cost more. It will cost a FRACTION of what I pay now.

Universal Health Care does not equal Mandatory Private Insurance. That a fucking RW LIE. It fact, that's one of their favorite things to spew against Universal Health Care.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. There's going to be a wage scale. Low income people will not have to pay.

Everyone contributes and everyone wins.

It's sounding more and more freeperish in here everyday!

It's MY money. I want to keep it! I earned it! Why should I pay for that poor person down the street ? He's just a lazy bum!

Democrats think the glass is half full and Republicans think the glass is theirs!

A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS! Just remember that.

Everyone pay...IF they can afford it and everyone wins.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. Sounds like you're for universal single payer healthcare. So am I.

Neither Clinton nor Obama are proposing that. Both their plans are boondoggles for the insurance industry. Clinton's a little more so because of the mandates.

Both plans suck. Congress needs to pass HR672 (Kucinich's plan).

[seriousstan]

26. When it is a Clinton, you must parse the words. They will argue it is could not should.

Coming from the team of "what is is" are you surprised?

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. Go watch the video and hear the TRUTH instead of taking the Obama liars word for it. LINK:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

The health Care discussion starts after the second commercial at -8:50

[Darth_Kitten]

7. Why? Because she confidently answers every question asked of her...

and doesn't hesitate?

[ErnestoG]

44. ...except when it comes to the IWR.

And then she stammers all over the place, like she did in the debate.

[LittleBlue]

8. If I were the Republican Party, this is what I was looking for

First racism, now this. WTF is her problem?

[jlake]

14. The problem is that Obama lies about what Hillary says. NOT WHAT SHE SAYS.

[stevietheman]

16. This is about Hillary's actual words, though. n/t

n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. No it's not. That's not what she said. Stop lying. n/t

[stevietheman]

20. I'm sorry you cannot face the truth. n/t

n/t

[LittleBlue]

24. "Going after people's wages"

That's what she said. A direct quote. The truth.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. You can all stop your blatant LIES now...Facts and videos are a funny thing:

The New York senator has criticized presidential rival Barack Obama for pushing a health plan that would not require universal coverage. Clinton has not always specified the enforcement measures she would embrace, but when pressed on ABC's "This Week," she said: "I think there are a number of mechanisms" that are possible, including "going after people's wages, automatic enrollment."

Clinton said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it, which puts undue pressure on hospitals and emergency rooms. With her proposals for subsidies, she said, "it will be affordable for everyone."

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1709472,00.html

She SAID: People will NOT be forced to pay if they cannot afford it! Go here:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466 The Health Care discussion starts after the second commercial and the countdown clock is at -8:50

listen to the video and then come back and repeat your LIES.

[jlake]

23. Hillary never used the word garnish. And logically, Obama's plan

will either be ineffective, or end up the same way.

[LittleBlue]

19. She said "going after people's wages" today on TV

I don't know if you saw it. That was totally stupid. She should have added "round up the Jews" or "uppity" and save the Republicans the trouble of destroying her.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. She said.."IF people who CAN afford insurance refuse to buy it, she COULD

garnish their wages. She went on to say, that if people can't afford it, THEY WILL GET HELP PAYING IT. Also, she was just listing things that she COULD implement as President....she did not say she WOULD. COULD and WOULD are 2 VERY different words. Pay closer attention next time.

[stevietheman]

43. "COULD" means she's open minded to it, and that is absolutely unacceptable. n/t

n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

51. Go watch the damn video. The health care discussion starts at -8:50

after the second commercial. Hear the TRUTH. What she actually said.


http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

[guruoo]

81. I watched the video - You're correct.

Thanks.

[RoadRage]

84. AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM! The people WHO CAN AFFORD IT are REPUBLICANS!!!!

THEY, along with many independents and several democrats who "CAN AFFORD IT" but are not wanting to even THINK about having their wages garnished will be out in droves to vote AGAINST HER in a General Election.

In MY mind - I actually like Hillary's plan better then Obama's. But, Obama's has a better chance of passing because It doesn't mandate (except for children) and it has a chance of actually passing the house & senate. Hillary's does not - it will not get bipartisian support.

And now people have a non-sexist reason to come out in droves and vote against her in a General Election. They don't have to say "i'm voting against her because she's a woman, or she's a Clinton". They just have to say "I'm voting against her because I make a decent wage, and I don't want her to garnish that for her health care plan".

[jlake]

27. Oh dear, you've gone round the bend.

Do you want universal coverage or not?
I am sad that so many Obamabots are resorting to right wing scare tactics to protect their corporate candidate.

[LittleBlue]

32. Universal health care, yes. Universal insurance, no. n/t

[Zueda]

9. Delete

Self delete

[rpannier]

10. If you say so

I mean...you obviously speak for all Americans

[stevietheman]

15. I don't speak for all Americans, but I do know campaign logic.

And I would bet you do too. You *know* the GOP is going to run Hillary's words over and over and over and over again.

[rpannier]

29. If you go over everything that has been said by all these people running

there's enough out there to sink them all.

I've worked on campaigns... I worked on the Cranston 86 campaign which was fairly nasty and I was in Texas for Ann Richards campaign when she was elected Governor.

That comment will not sink Clinton...
The Clintons are better campaigners than that.

They give as good as they get.

Where we've got sunk, time and again, is when we don't return volley 10 fold.

But, then what do I know. I supported John Edawrds and still do (especially his program) and I'm assuming you've been supporting Obama the whole time.

[ileus]

13. 56% on average isn't enough?

[never_get_over_it]

22. Oh please

either one of these two are going to lose - you guys all fell for the M$M rock star - white woman black man thing hook line and sinker

can't wait to see how that works out for you

do you REALLY THINK going after wages is more harmful than being a BLACK MUSLIM JIHADIST or BALL BREAKING VINCE FOSTER MURDERING DIKE -

no matter who gets the nomination - I hope you all enjoy the next 9 months especially oh lets see the last three days or so - should be quite the show...

[Cha]

28. Not if she's not in it..she hasn't lost it

for us.

[denem]

31. Her EXACT words

"... when pressed on ABC's "This Week," she said: I think there are a number of mechanisms that are possible, including going after people's wages, automatic enrollment."

Note the words, 'that are possible' are the reporters.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080203/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp_30

[emilyg]

34. Thank you.

[Jed Dilligan]

41. Do you have any source for what actually was said

in that lacuna? If it's purely an addition, the reporters' words would seem to mitigate the statement, not make it worse.

[stevietheman]

45. And "going after people's wages" will repeated over and over and over and over again by the GOP. nt

n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. Here's the video. Go hear it yourself. After the second commercial at -8:50

on the countdown clock. "No one will be forved to pay if they cannot afford it."

Obama LIED again. Surprise, surprise.


http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

[Hill_YesWeWill]

35. no link? nt

[emilyg]

36. There is no question your language comprehension is lacking.

[sjdnb]

40. The GOP is floundering ... neither Obama or Hillary (nor any of us)

should give a rat's rear what they think anymore.

Just look at the GOP fundraising/voting numbers. This is not gonna even be close - no matter who the nominee is.

[Quixote1818]

56. "go after their wages" = "I voted for it before it before I voted against it"

Major blunder on Hillary's part.

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Watch the video..."no one will pay if they cannot afford it." Go watch it for yourself:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/News/story?id=466

The health care discussion starts after the second commercial at -8:50.....ONLY people who CAN AFFORD IT and refuse to buy insurance COULD have their wages garnered.

Hell, Obama wants to hit people up at the hospital if they don't have insurance! He wants to force them to buy it while they're in the middle of a crisis at the hospital.

Hillary's plan blows Obama's out of the water and is closest to John Edwards' health care plan.

[Quixote1818]

63. I know you are right but it won't matter in the General Election

John Kerry had actually done the right thing but he used the wrong wording. Same situation here. The Republicans will take it out of context and just say it over and over and over and over and over!!!

Not to mention it rolls off the tong.

[RoadRage]

85. Has anyone asked Hillary how she determines "Who can afford it"? NT

[jillan]

82. And I am sure that Hillary will be able to answer their allegations and not just sit there

and take it....like someone else would.

[creeksneakers2]

83. I took a survey to see how this was playing out

MSNBC.com - nothing
CNN.com - nothing
Nytimes.com - nothing
CBS.com - nothing
ABC.com - an article far down the page but its a balanced article and quickly passes by the topic to get to others.

I expect the vast right wing conspiracy media to jump on this tomorrow and there will be another day of fake outrage. But Hillary picked the best time to come forward with the truth about mandates. Most people are going to be more interested in talking about the Super Bowl. The right wing media will also be very busy making a last ditch attempt to derail John McCain. So there won't be much time left to exploit the fathead listeners on the mandates.

Its exciting to you but not to everybody else.

[Usrename]

90. Gee, I didn't know the General Election had already started.

Who are the candidates? Is Hillary even on the ballot? :shrug:

:eyes:

[Scriptor Ignotus]

89. I thought the same thing

nail in the coffin.