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It is time to break the highest glass ceiling. (with post script)

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:47 PM
Original message
It is time to break the highest glass ceiling. (with post script)
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 06:21 PM by Deep13
If we really had gender equality in America-that is practical equality, not just legal equality-about half of the leaders in this country: political, social and business, would be women. That is obviously not true. The average female worker still makes dimes to the man's dollar. Even in leadership roles, woman must work much harder than men to stay there. I have seen this. Not only must they be as tough and resourceful as men, but they must avoid any of the land mines of the double standard of behavior. It has been said before. Men are assertive while women are bitchy. Men can be sensitive while women are just weak. And so forth. In addition, women in leadership positions must resist the attempts of women in traditional support roles to be part of their pecking order. You would think an M.D. or a law degree would end that kind of thing, but it doesn't. In addition to this there is a reluctance to put women in responsible positions due to the possibility that she will leave ultimately leave to have children. Lastly, but significantly, there is an implicit assumption that men lead and women, like children, are led. (Why women AND children first? Shouldn't it be just children first?) Of course religion greatly contributes to this assumption. As long as we continue to permit discrimination in hiring for religious positions, I do not see that changing. Even parental attitudes reinforce this. I went to a public college that was considered lower class for men and middle class for women. (Parents are more likely to send males to expensive schools.)

Misogyny really, really bugs me. Sure there are other forms of bigotry. But the sexism is what gets under my skin most. Maybe it is because I was mostly raised by my mother and saw what she went through. Maybe it is because throughout history, whatever group was up or down, in or out, women were always down and out. Whether her husband or father is a slave or a king, in most of the world, she is still a slave to his wishes. Maybe it is because it affects half of the world. Maybe it is because the oppression of women has the stamp of approval of most of humanity's gods. Whatever the reason, I hate it. In this country, gender equality has always taken a back seat to racial equality. We did the 15th Amendment in 1870. We didn't do the 19th until 1920. We did the 14th in 1867. E.R.A. never happened at all. (There are other examples.) Obviously, we have done much to end racism and still have much to do. This is not an either-or situation. Still, for once I would like to see us put that half of the population first.

So, one of the reasons I am voting for HC next month is because she is a woman. And I think that is a perfectly valid reason. Granted, even if she is elected, it will not end oppression of women or end discrimination or sexist attitudes here. But it will help. The whole woman can't be leaders argument is not so persuasive with a woman in the Oval Office. Also, if HC can't break the glass ceiling, who can? If not now, when? I frankly don't see anymore in as good of a position as she is coming down the pike anytime soon.

POST SCRIPT:

I feel it necessary to add a disclaimer since many posters have misrepresented what I said. (Yes, I am calling you liars.) I did not say that I am voting for HC BECAUSE she is a woman. I said it was ONE reason. If she was not qualified and capable of doing the job, I would not vote for her regardless. Since she is and her has very little experience, it is almost a moot issue. So, in addition to being a highly capable person, the fact that she would put another nail in the coffin of sexism is an added attraction. We cannot correct what is wrong if we refuse to do anything about it because of a preconceived label. Saying there is no difference between this and voting for a man because of gender, ignores the fact that men are already running the country.

I have to say that whatever positive opinion I have developed of O. from observing his highly effective campaign goes right out the window when I read his supporters' posts on this forum (GDP).
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. ............
If blacks are voting for Obama because his skin color, then women can vote for Hillary based upon her gender.

And don't feign your left wing outrage. I am not buying it.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I guess that was my point.
So, I'm not going to be outraged by what I just wrote. :shrug:
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NOLALady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Wonder how that works out for black women?
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. Good question ..., Some thoughts from Carol Moseley-Braun
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 06:09 PM by Iceburg
NPR audio clip
"Sexism is universal, racism is localized"
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REDFISHBLUEFISH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I am a male, I vote for Hillary. The men have messed this up bad enough, Hillary will fix it!
Oh yeah I said it, men have royaly messed up this country.

If females were running it...civil rights would have been done YEARS earlier....
Health Care...done! SO MANY THINGS....

Want real change, put a Woman in charge! Who better to clean up after the slobs we jhave in DC now!
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
54. i love you.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Would you vote for Condi? n/t
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. "So, ONE of the reasons I am voting for HC next month..."
(caps. added)

I guess reading comprehension is slipping around here. I blame NCLB.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. Actually I did
Your whole post is about womens' issue and gender equality. You may have ended it with "ONE of the reasons" the whole post was about the gender issues.

Perhaps it's not my reading comprehension but your clarity of the written word that is slipping.

Mz Pip
:dem:
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't that reverse sexism?
Voting for a qualified woman because of her qualifications is fine, but using gender as a qualification?

How would somebody that stated that they were voting for Obama because he's a man be received?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. So you didn't read the post, did you.
Men are already running this country. You know, affirmative action is something liberals have traditionally supported at least since the 1960s.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yes, I did....and I've never supported some of the aspects of affirmative action
I read the article. I wouldn't vote for a candidate based on skin color or creed or gender or sexual orientation.

Isn't that the goal of equal employment opportunity (something liberals have traditionally supported)?
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hillary represents inherent change and breaking the glass ceiling
We haven't had a member of the Clinton couple in the Oval Office in eight years!

There are many reasons to vote for Hillary. Her gender is not one of them.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. she represents de-evolution, retrograde movement...Not Change
May olde acquaintance be forgotten!
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
52. yeah yeah-First Obama takes us back to Reagan era then 1960s with jfk.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bigot.
If it's acceptable to say, "I'm voting for her because she's a woman and a woman would do better as President," it's acceptable for men to say, "I'm voting for McCain because he's a man and a man would do better as President."
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Fuck you. Where were you when I was campaigning for Jesse Jackson in 1988?
You obviously base your opinions on a bunch of cliches and liberal memes and have no clue about the practical effect of any of these things.

I said it before. I have donated thousands of dollars and spent hours of my time working for Dem. candidates in the past. But I will not spend one fucking dime on Obama. If you represent his supporters, then I will be taking a long hard look at McCain if O. is nominated.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Doesn't change the fact that you're legitimizing discrimination.
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 06:02 PM by Occam Bandage
No clue about the practical effect of affirmative action? There's a laugh. I oppose it despite the fact that I'm a liberal, and because of what I've seen.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Discrimination exists. I would like that fixed.
Moron.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. And legitimizing discrimination to fight discrimination is counterproductive.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Nope.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. Well, I'm convinced.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. You'd consider voting for McCain because you don't like Obama supporters
on DU?

You've just demonstrated that you're not to be taken seriously- and that you're not a particularly good democrat.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. My zip code is 44212. Look me up on 2006 and 2004 election cycles.
Are you donating the Federal maximum to O? I did for Kerry and for Sherrod Brown.

politicalmoneyline.com

The name is Russell A. Hopkins and I am sick of self-rightous amateurs. And I have the right to vote for whomever I choose. Now, I'll still vote for for Betty Sutton (OH13-D). And I'll probably even vote for your guy, but I will need to consider it carefully. Anyway, if you don't think Hillary Clinton is a good D., then I guess I am not too concerned about your opinion.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Don't put words in my mouth.
I think Hillary Clinton is an admirable dem. So shovel your crap someplace else. And yes, I donated to Dean and Kerry. I've also donated to Kucinich and Obama. YOU are the one that bashes Obama and says you'll consider voting for McCain. I'm thankfully not like YOU.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
45. Why do you assume that 'bigot' means 'racist'? nt
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. you calling out the ip as a bigot??
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. I assume you are capable of reading. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. The charge of wage inequality has been debunked
women are said to make 70 cents for every dollar men make, but this trend does not apply to men and women in the same position.

More men have higher paying jobs, like Engineers, etc. Also, they work more hours than women on average.

The only place where the job ceiling still applies to CEOs and such, since that is a lot about knowing the right people. But in 95+% of jobs, including high profile jobs such as doctors, women get just as much pay.

Furthermore, nowadays more women go to college then men. In that aspect, males are being held back more than women, since as children and throughout school they are not encouraged as much to focus on academics.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:00 PM
Original message
THAT'S MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT!!!!
Women don't get those high-paid positions as often. To a large degree they have been programmed by their up-bringing not to go after them.

Jesus Fucking Christ, does anyone around here have the slightest idea of what s/he is actually writing?!
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. That's their personal choice if they don't decide to become Engineers
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 06:04 PM by Levgreee
There still are plenty of female engineers, but not as many. They prefer on average the less mathematical, mechanical jobs. In some ways men and women just think different, biologically, culturally, whatever, they have different preferences.

don't blame it on some glass ceiling holding them down.

It may apply to CEOs, but that is only .0001% of jobs.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I blame it on the glass ceiling...
...as explained in my OP.
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Levgreee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. How does it apply to engineers? I don't understand. Women can easily be engineers
if they decide to go through the schooling and choose that vocation.

How are female engineers held back?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. NO--girls tend to drop out of science-middle years--not encouraged-but
some of this is changing.

lots of acedemic research related to girls in science out there.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. That is where the problem is, and where the solution is. Preferential hiring does not fix anything.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Until this problem is resolved, pref. hiring is needed.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Why? It does nothing to solve the systematic problems; in many cases it makes them worse.
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 07:44 PM by Occam Bandage
It helps the person hired, sure. We've done that one person "justice." But in doing so, we've harmed literally everyone else in the paradigm--minority and majority--including the next generation of minority students.

I think we need to move beyond "let's think of ways to help this person," and towards "let's think of ways to fix the system so we don't even have to help this person."
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
47. Clintons do. One couple may control the White House for the second time in a decade
What a barrier Hillary is scaling!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. Nice sexist sentiment there,
How about we vote for whoever we think that the best person, male, female, black, white, brown, is for the job.

Voting for somebody just because they're a woman is just as sexist as the reverse. Why don't we simply base our vote on the person's plans, policies and record. That would be the truly non-sexist path to take.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. see post #5.
"...just because they're a woman ..."

First, it is one reason among many. Second, the correct way to phrase that is to say, "just because she's a woman."
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. So one of your reasons for voting for Hillary is because you're sexist.
Still, is that really the path to true enlightenment and harmony? Instead we should consider a candidate based on their merits, their policies, their record, their plans rather than their sex or skin color.

You despise the fact that there are going to be people who won't vote for Hillary because she is female. Yet your response is to continue to divide the country along sexist lines. Classy.

But hey, thanks for being a grammar nazi:eyes:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. grow up!
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Hey, I'm just following the OP's logic here,
If you don't like where that leads, talk to the OP.

Let me ask you this, would you think it's a good thing if I came out and stated that one of reasons I'm voting for a candidate is because that candidate was a man? Hell no, you'd be all over that shit and tearing me a new asshole. Why is it suddenly hands off when it comes to this post?

Oh, yeah, it involves your candidate:eyes:

So, is one of the reasons that you're voting for Hillary is because she is female?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. liar
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Sheep!
What are you calling me a liar over? Did you not state that one of your reasons for voting for Hillary is because she is female? Is that not a sexist position? Wouldn't you call that sexist if the roles were reversed and I stated that one of the reasons I'm voting for candidate X is because he is a male?

Look, you put this garbage out there, why be surprised when you get called on it.
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The Delegates Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. Let's hope for the time being
That the glass preventing the power hungry lady from achieving the presidency is unbreakable for this election.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Right, we only want power-hungery men.
That's normal for men, but for a woman it is unlady-like. Am I in the wrong place? This is a liberal message board right?
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The Delegates Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. The most power hungry family in the US
Outside of the Bushes is the Clintons.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. She will make history. She has the best platform and the
most fully explained plans on what she wants to accomplish. I want to vote in this fully competent woman. She makes me proud.
Break that ceiling Hillary, you go girl! And if the glass cuts you on the way through, go right ahead and cry if the shards hurt.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. WE would be the ones cut as the glass shards
trickle down on us.

We don't need a corporatist of EITHER gender. Haven't the last 7 years (or 15 years, or 27 years) convinced you of that?
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. How so?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. NAFTA. Welfare reform. Hillarycare.
NONE of the big themes of the clinton years benefitted Democrats or America. They were either republican initiatives or the didn't work at all. All the benefits of the 90s were derived from the tech boom - the decade started with people using 8088 dual-floppy computers and ended with PCs with 2 gig hard drives. Bill was just along for the ride.

And face it, Bill is up there holding the door open - she's not cracking any glass ceiling.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's time to bust into the Trinity.
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. We'll mark you down for Obama then.
Edited on Mon Feb-04-08 06:06 PM by goldcanyonaz
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:07 PM
Original message
President is small potatoes compared to being God
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. Don't worry, males are failing
Female college enrollment 60% and rising. You will get your female-dominated society soon enough.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. I tend to vote based on what I percieve as a candidates qualifications to lead a country.
Having a vagina is not really a qualification to lead a country in my opinion. If Clinton wants to win this election she needs to run on merit not her sex.

And yes people who would only vote for or against a candidate based on their race, sex, religion or sexual orientation are bigots in my humble opinion.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. I refuse to vote based on gender.
But you are free to. I know many women who have. But myself, I will wait for a woman I believe in.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
37. ~ALL FIRED-UP FOR THE LADY~-YES SHE CAN, YES WE CAN~
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. It's time to give Bush a third term
No, no, hear me out!

What would have happened if term limits were in place when FDR was in the white house? What if we get another FDR and have to kick them out prematurely??

I say it's time to set a new precedent (or revive an old one). Let's let Presidents keep the White House as long as anyone will vote for them and -- more importantly -- it's high time that we did that RIGHT NOW! Don't give me any crap about how big a hole we've dug for ourselves during the last two terms. Don't whine about the damage that needs to be undone; what matters is making a symbolic gesture without delay. Nothing compares to that.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-04-08 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
55. I support Hillary because I agree with her on many issues...
especially her Health Care Plan. I'll work for her, donate to her and support her passionately because she's a woman.

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themaguffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
60. It's time to break the ceiling of the spouse of a former President FINALLY getting the top job
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