Why is it that women have to fight twice as hard, gain twice the experience before

[demo dutch]

before they are even considered adequate enough to beat a man!

[mtnsnake]

1. Because half our society and more than half of our forum is comprised of freepers

and that's the kind of mentality they perpetuate.

[demo dutch]

2. No shit!

[Windy]

3. Jesus. That is NOT IT. Woman like me aren't voting for her because she lacks sound judgment.

That is not a man or woman thing...its a matter of ISSUES which is what I thought this race was all about after 8 years of blind loyalty by a large majority of this country to George Bush!!!

My god, my gender is really disappointing me. Vote for Hillary if you think she is the best candidate. It is NOT ABOUT GENDER!!!!!!!

Respect yourself and your intelligence please!!!!

[demo dutch]

6. I happen to think she is the best candidate, but Obama's lack of experience is dismissed!

[Windy]

13. Obama has much more legislative experience and more to the point, she made wrong choices

that have cost lives. Her so-called experience hasn't served this country very well. I'm sorry, I can't trust the lives of the sons to a woman who is so cavalier about going to war!!

[Radical Activist]

15. Obama has more years in public office than Clinton.

And that's not his only experience related to politics and government.

[demo dutch]

28. Oh really he graduated in 1991!

[Radical Activist]

32. He was elected to the State Senate in '96.

Thus, he has more experience in office than Clinton.
I'm not sure what you think the year he graduated from law school has to do with it.

[demo dutch]

35. It has a hell of a lot to do with it! It's called on the job experience

[Radical Activist]

39. I prefer Obama's job experience

including his community organizing experience before he went to law school. That's something Hillary could have done but she passed up a job offer to do community organizing with Saul Alinsky and went straight to law school instead. Even in her 20's she wanted to work in the establishment instead of being a popular change agent.
I also prefer Obama's experience teaching Constitutional Law since it appears to have given him a better appreciation for things like limits on Presidential power that Clinton doesn't have.

[Yossariant]

36. Illinois State Senator is a part time job.

If Obama gets the nomination, manages to get elected and re-elected, the Presidency would be the longest running full time job he has held in his life.

[Radical Activist]

38. Its a full time legislature.

Nice line, but untrue.
What was Hillary's longest full time job? Corporate lawyer?

[Yossariant]

50. Obama is lying to you again. The legislature is part-time. Link:

By Kevin McDermott | Sunday, December 10, 2006 | No comments posted

SPRINGFIELD — In their roughly six months of legislating this year, state lawmakers couldn’t come to an agreement on how to ease the impact of skyrocketing electricity rates, rein in the state’s campaign laws, or put the state budget on sound long-term footing.

But before adjourning for the year last week, they did manage to significantly raise their own pay, maintaining one of the highest legislative salaries in America — and the very highest among similar part-time legislatures.

http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2006/12/10/news/state/doc457b98d1a4953685154318.txt

[Radical Activist]

53. I worked for the state legislature. I think I know.

Its considered a full time legislature.

[Yossariant]

54. One of us posted a link and it wasn't you. It is in session for 6 months and you're desperate.

[Radical Activist]

55. Your link didn't confirm what you claimed.

This one does support my point though...
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/press/2004/backgrounder_fullandpart.htm

I live in the capital of Illinois. I know how often the legislature is in session and its more than 6 months. You should also study up on how "full-time" v. "part-time" legislatures are commonly defined.

[Armstead]

18. Thank you from a male

[helderheid]

22. AMEN, sister!

[zabet]

4. It has been my experience

as a woman who worked in what
is considered a mans field, women
have to be twice as good, work twice
as hard, to get HALF the recognition
of a man doing the same job.

[MADem]

12. I have to agree with you that this is way too often the case.

Female personnel in the military had a similiar uphill climb. Some of it had to do with rank prejudice and anger at the entree of women into a predominantly male domain. Some of it, sadly, has to do with the "Old Boy's Club." The women just weren't invited to fill out a foursome on the golf course where WAY too much 'business' is often solidified, and, back in the days before temperance became fashionable, a woman who 'bellied up to the bar' with the fellahs was viewed with a bit of a jaundiced eye.

[Jamastiene]

23. Precisely.

Funny how other countries have had female presidents and prime ministers for ages now, but America is still behind the times when it comes to progressive thinking. We are behind the time on any kind of thinking beyond unilateral reactionary thinking, which really isn't thinking at all.

[sandnsea]

5. Hell I'd vote for Michelle

I'd vote for Elizabeth.

The Clintons are not what the country needs. That Is ALL.

[GoldieAZ49]

8. agreed

and just between you and I, I thought Elizabeth was a stronger candidate than her husband

[Armstead]

21. Yes Elizabeth Edwards would've been a great candiate

[NC_Nurse]

7. I'd vote for many women, but not Hillary.

Barbara Boxer to name one.

What about the fact that a lot of her rise to power is based on her husband? Doesn't that sort of take away from the whole
"victory for womankind" thing?

[plantwomyn]

24. Or you could look at it this way.

Most of Bill Clinton's rise to power was based on his wife.

[Occam Bandage]

9. Well, I suppose if gender-baiting is all you have left...

[demo dutch]

10. That's what is boils down to if there's little difference in issues

[sandnsea]

14. It's bottom up vs top down

Those of us on the bottom get the difference. If more low income people had the time to dig into the details, this election would have been over long ago.

Tax credits through FICA so everyone gets them. Bonuses in social security checks. Respect for people who can't afford health insurance, not punishment.

A change in the mindset that got us into Iraq.

HUGE differences. The only ones who have said there are no differences are the Clinton supporters who have nothing substantial to offer.

[demo dutch]

29. No huge differences, every political expert agrees on that

[sandnsea]

31. That's why Democrats keep losing

Our political experts are out of touch with real Americans. It's pretty telling that the country had to be going completely down the shitter before people would give Democrats a chance.

[demo dutch]

34. Last time I checked Obama and Hillary were tied to losing against McCain

[sandnsea]

37. Yeah, that's pretty telling

Don't you think? As bad as things are, we're still going to have a fight to win in November and there are people here who want to go with the same tired politics that have cost us the Senate, House and White House for over 10 years. It's ridiculous.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

11. Not really true. Most women or men would be laughed out of the race if they only had Obama's 1 year

in the senate before starting to run for president

[AGirl]

16. That's so true.

[Yossariant]

17. A lot of women are jealous of other women.

A woman with Barack's resume woulda been beat by Alan Keyes.

:shrug:

by Gloria Steinem

THE woman in question became a lawyer after some years as a community organizer, married a corporate lawyer and is the mother of two little girls, ages 9 and 6. Herself the daughter of a white American mother and a black African father — in this race-conscious country, she is considered black — she served as a state legislator for eight years, and became an inspirational voice for national unity.

Be honest: Do you think this is the biography of someone who could be elected to the United States Senate? After less than one term there, do you believe she could be a viable candidate to head the most powerful nation on earth?
...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/opinion/08steinem.html

[Barack_America]

19. Why is it that we've never had a viable female candidate that wasn't married...

...to a former President?

I don't know.

[zabet]

33. We did, America just was not

ready for a woman then, especially
an African-American woman.

Shirley Chisholm joined the Congressional Black Caucus in 1969, as one of its founding members. In 1972, she made a bid for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination, receiving 152 delegate votes, but ultimately losing the nomination to South Dakota Senator George McGovern.

[Berry Cool]

42. You considered Chisholm "viable"?

I'm not sure I'd call her that.

And what is this crap about "America" being "ready" for anything? I think that's just so...excuse-making. It takes a whole lot of individuals and boils them down into one mass who is either "ready" or "not ready" to elect someone.

[zabet]

43. Certainly.

Racism was far more overtly
rampant during her time, the
fact that she made it as far as
she did speaks volumes.
When I say ready, it means in
a sense that American had not
grown up enough to look past race
and gender during this era.
Women have had to fight for equality
with men in the professional world
for years and African-Americans have
had to fight oppression since they came
to America.
I was not but 10 years old when she made
her bid and I can remember it.

Shirley Chilsom - "in spite of hopeless odds, . . . to demonstrate the sheer will and refusal to accept the status quo."

In 1964, Chisholm ran and was elected to the New York State Legislature. She then ran as the Democratic candidate for New York's 12th District congressional seat and was elected to the House of Representatives in 1968, defeating Republican candidate James Farmer and becoming the first African-American woman elected to Congress.

As a freshman, Chisholm was assigned to the House Agricultural Committee. Given her urban district, she felt the placement was a waste of time and shocked many by demanding reassignment. She was then placed on the Veterans' Affairs Committee. Soon after, she voted for Hale Boggs as House Majority Leader over John Conyers. As a reward for her support, Boggs assigned her to the much-prized Education and Labor Committee; she was the third-highest ranking member when she retired.

Chisholm joined the Congressional Black Caucus in 1969, as one of its founding members. In 1972, she made a bid for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination, receiving 152 delegate votes, but ultimately losing the nomination to South Dakota Senator George McGovern. Chisholm's base of support was ethnically diverse and included the National Organization for Women. Among the volunteers who were inspired by her campaign was Barbara Lee, who would go on to become a congresswoman some 25 years later. (Currently, Barbara Lee has a couple of pieces of legislation that would honor Shirley Chisholm, including H Con Res 9, calling on the US Postal Service to create a stamp honoring her, and HR 176, which would create a program to encourage educational exchanges between the US and Caribbean nations.) Chisholm said she ran for the office

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Chisholm

[EffieBlack]

20. The same goes for blacks . . .

[hiaasenrocks]

25. It's in the Constitution!

Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

Happy to help! :hi:

[demo dutch]

27. It's in the constitution that women have to fight twice as hard? Oh please

get yourself educated about the constitution!

[hiaasenrocks]

41. Holy crap. You thought I was being serious?

:dunce:

[Whisp]

26. in most circumstances I would agree with you

but not this one.
Hillary fought real hard to support many of the corporatists wants and needs and Bush's need for war.

and because she was such a 'good girl', she will be rewarded with a presidency. thats about as unfeminist as I can think of.

[David Zephyr]

30. She didn't fight twice as hard, she was married to a president.

George W. Bush didn't fight twice as hard, he was the son of a president.

Hillary hasn't fought twice as hard as Barack, it's the other way around. She's the one who was married to a president.

[Yossariant]

40. LOL! She even waited twice as long because Bill went first. He always said she was smarter.

[scheming daemons]

44. Why is it that black people have to fight twice as hard, gain twice the experience before

they are even considered adequate enough to beat a white person?


Two can play that game, demo. My statement is as equally valid as yours is.

[EffieBlack]

45. Is this a contest?

[scheming daemons]

46. Just pointing out how silly these gender and race based things are...

demo dutch has spent the past several days telling us that the #1 reason to vote for Hillary is because she has ovaries.

That's no different than an Obama supporter making the EQUALLY ridiculous assertion that he/she is voting for Obama because of his skin pigment.


Get past it people..... the content of their character has nothing to do with their gender.


...

[EffieBlack]

47. I don't agree that "content of the character has nothing to do with their gender"

While I don't believe that race or gender should be the only factor considered when voting for or against a candidate, you cannot always completely separate out someone's race or gender when considering their character. Of course, whether someone is a good or bad person is unrelated to their race or gender. However, someone's race or gender can often affect many things in their lives and how they dealt with them.

For example, when considering Obama's qualifications for the presidency, I not only look at his experience and what he has accomplished in his life, I also consider the fact that he achieved these things as a black man in America. Like it or not, being black - or female - still carries with it obstacles, burdens and challenges that others just don't have to face. Black males face enormous challenges - double the unemployment, racial profiling leading, limited educational options, racial profiling, police brutality, etc. The fact that Obama has managed to avoid being tripped up by these obstacles and accomplished the things that he has, that he has endured and risen above blatent racism that he has faced, and that he has done so without bitterness, anger or rancor says an enormous amount about the "content of his character."

This does not apply only to minorities. I apply this to everyone.

Just like John Edwards' Southern roots are cited as an important part of his development, his race is also a critical part of who he is. I always appreciated and respected Edwards' progressive views on race. One of the reasons I appreciated him so much is BECAUSE of his race - I am enormously impressed that a white man from Edwards' background holds the views that he does. There are plenty of white men from similar backgrounds who are nowhere near as progressive on race as he is. If Edwards were black and he held those views, I'd think it was nice, but I would be nearly as impressed, since it would is not unusual or politically dangerous for a black politican to think this way. But a white man from a modest background in North Carolina taking on this issue with such fervor and passion warms my heart and tells me a great deal about the "content of his character."

For some reason, people - especially liberals - have come to believe that there is something wrong with noticing or appreciating someone's race. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

A few years ago, I was planning to have lunch with a colleague whom I had never met. He asked me how he would recognize me in the restaurant. Knowing that very few black people would be in the restaurant, I told him, "I'm black." He got very flustered and said, "That doesn't matter. What will you be wearing?" I said, "I have on a red dress. But you won't be able to miss me. I'm black." He got even more flustered. "I don't notice skin color. What color is your hair?"

I had to tell him that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him noticing that I'm black - after all, along with my being female, at first sight, it's my most visible distinguishing characteristic." Now, if he were making a value judgment about me based solely upon my skin color, THAT would be wrong. But if he uses my skin color to pick me out in a crowded restaurant filled with white people - not mad at him.

[LordJFT]

48. stupid question

They're not, it's just that not all people think experience is only measured in quantity. And there are many better female candidates than Hillary.

[eridani]

49. Is there a difference between prowar and antiwar women here? n/t

[catagory5]

51. HEY OP

It' gonna be twice as sweet for you!!!!!

Hang in there. We are in for a really good day tommorow!

[mckeown1128]

52. Your analogy would be stronger if....

Hillary hadn't already beaten out several men with much more experience.