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PLEASE VOTE HILLARY. Paul Krugman: Hillary Universal Health Care, Obama NOT

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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:44 AM
Original message
PLEASE VOTE HILLARY. Paul Krugman: Hillary Universal Health Care, Obama NOT
I wish Krugman had written this days ago. The media is not covering it, or the issues at all.

I'm asking everyone to please, please READ THIS and consider the facts, and others such as Hillary's economy plans (mortage, interest rate feeze, loan) Obama is not for doing nearly as much as she is.

Please think about how much the media has trashed Hillary and given Obama almost exclusively positive coverage. The media should not be promoting one candidate and bashing another, but they are. They should not be telling us who to vote for.

PLEASE READ


By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: February 4, 2008

The principal policy division between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama involves health care. It’s a division that can seem technical and obscure — and I’ve read many assertions that only the most wonkish care about the fine print of their proposals.
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Paul Krugman.
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But as I’ve tried to explain in previous columns, there really is a big difference between the candidates’ approaches. And new research, just released, confirms what I’ve been saying: the difference between the plans could well be the difference between achieving universal health coverage — a key progressive goal — and falling far short.

Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton’s would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama’s — at only slightly higher cost.

Let’s talk about how the plans compare.

Both plans require that private insurers offer policies to everyone, regardless of medical history. Both also allow people to buy into government-offered insurance instead.

And both plans seek to make insurance affordable to lower-income Americans. The Clinton plan is, however, more explicit about affordability, promising to limit insurance costs as a percentage of family income. And it also seems to include more funds for subsidies.

But the big difference is mandates: the Clinton plan requires that everyone have insurance; the Obama plan doesn’t.

Mr. Obama claims that people will buy insurance if it becomes affordable. Unfortunately, the evidence says otherwise.

After all, we already have programs that make health insurance free or very cheap to many low-income Americans, without requiring that they sign up. And many of those eligible fail, for whatever reason, to enroll.

An Obama-type plan would also face the problem of healthy people who decide to take their chances or don’t sign up until they develop medical problems, thereby raising premiums for everyone else. Mr. Obama, contradicting his earlier assertions that affordability is the only bar to coverage, is now talking about penalizing those who delay signing up — but it’s not clear how this would work.

So the Obama plan would leave more people uninsured than the Clinton plan. How big is the difference?

To answer this question you need to make a detailed analysis of health care decisions. That’s what Jonathan Gruber of M.I.T., one of America’s leading health care economists, does in a new paper.

Mr. Gruber finds that a plan without mandates, broadly resembling the Obama plan, would cover 23 million of those currently uninsured, at a taxpayer cost of $102 billion per year. An otherwise identical plan with mandates would cover 45 million of the uninsured — essentially everyone — at a taxpayer cost of $124 billion. Over all, the Obama-type plan would cost $4,400 per newly insured person, the Clinton-type plan only $2,700.

That doesn’t look like a trivial difference to me. One plan achieves more or less universal coverage; the other, although it costs more than 80 percent as much, covers only about half of those currently uninsured.

As with any economic analysis, Mr. Gruber’s results are only as good as his model. But they’re consistent with the results of other analyses, such as a 2003 study, commissioned by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, that compared health reform plans and found that mandates made a big difference both to success in covering the uninsured and to cost-effectiveness.

And that’s why many health care experts like Mr. Gruber strongly support mandates.

Now, some might argue that none of this matters, because the legislation presidents actually manage to get enacted often bears little resemblance to their campaign proposals. And there is, indeed, no guarantee that Mrs. Clinton would, if elected, be able to pass anything like her current health care plan.

But while it’s easy to see how the Clinton plan could end up being eviscerated, it’s hard to see how the hole in the Obama plan can be repaired. Why? Because Mr. Obama’s campaigning on the health care issue has sabotaged his own prospects.

You see, the Obama campaign has demonized the idea of mandates — most recently in a scare-tactics mailer sent to voters that bears a striking resemblance to the “Harry and Louise” ads run by the insurance lobby in 1993, ads that helped undermine our last chance at getting universal health care.

If Mr. Obama gets to the White House and tries to achieve universal coverage, he’ll find that it can’t be done without mandates — but if he tries to institute mandates, the enemies of reform will use his own words against him.

If you combine the economic analysis with these political realities, here’s what I think it says: If Mrs. Clinton gets the Democratic nomination, there is some chance — nobody knows how big — that we’ll get universal health care in the next administration. If Mr. Obama gets the nomination, it just won’t happen.
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jlake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kick for the truth.
It is shameful that Obama has made is supporters spin for right wing ideas and policies.
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. I agree. He's no liberal.
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ursi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. give me a break! the ability to predict the future is amazing!
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. So it doesn't matter what a candidate says? Why not just not vote at all.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. yeah--that Vision thingy from Obama--isn't that the Future?--and blind faith believers believe.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. Please stop calling it "universal"...
Any plan involving PRIVATE insurance companies is NOT universal health care.


Please stop repeating that LIE.

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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You are wrong. Read Krugman's article. Obama's plan is w insurance companies!
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. So is Hillary's...
She isn't proposing single payer. She wants us to pay PRIVATE insurance companies for coverage.

If it isn't single payer, it is NOT universal coverage!!
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. She is proposing Universal care, whetger you like how it's done or not. Obama is NOT.
You complain she includes insurance companies. So does Obama, but gives no universal plan...nothing.

We have to start SOMEWHERE.

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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. It is not universal care...
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 02:04 AM by ingac70
when private companies selling you the policy pick and choose what you are getting, and not doctors. That is what most of us have now, and under both plans, more people will be forced into the same shit.

Quit calling it universal.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Obama's is not 'universal' cause he leaves out 15MILLION folks--go figure!!
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
28. they're almost exactly the same except for mandates
There are arguments to be made for mandates and Krugman discusses them eloquently, which is no surprise.

But it is disingenuous to say that Clinton's plan is universal and Obama's is not. They both provide universal availability of health insurance, with some public non profit option and subsidies for premiums depending on income.

Neither would be universal health care. With Obama's plan, some people would choose not to participate. With Clinton's plan, some people would refuse to participate. Saying that what makes a plan "universal" is making people who don't want to buy health insurance buy it, is ... wrong.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. I don't care for either candidates health care plans
and I don't like the way Hillary dances around the question of mandated insurance (will people be fined, will the be forced to purchase).

Seriously, why are the insurance companies involved with this?

So basically, I've written it off as a way to select one over the other.

At least Edwards was up front about answering the questions.

And Kucinich had the right idea.

There are many countries with universal health care, some quite successful, let's study them and pick the system that fits the US.

As for this being the "last chance" at universal health care and "Obama can't do it without mandates" and if Obama is the nominee "it just won't happen".

That's hogwash.
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Edwards plan is virtually indentical to Hillary's.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. And his sucked too.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Did you see me say that I liked Edwards plan either?
No... all I said was that John was at least honest about enforcing mandates. Hillary prevaricates.
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. We need SOMETHING, and hers is the best. My friends don't have any insurance.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Will they be able to afford the premiums?
Because she is offering no caps on premiums, she's just going to force people to purchase a policy.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. Hey, you know what... *I* don't have insurance.
My premiums would be $1200 a month. With a $10,000 per year deductible.

Nobody wants to see universal health care more than me.

But there are times (like right now) where I can't afford ANY health insurance, at any price. No income so no tax credit. But I often DO have income for the year (last year's taxable income will be $40K). But I live (normally) in California... $40K before taxes does not pay for the basics, much less for mandated health care.
So a tax credit does me no damn good at all. And even with lower premiums, how am *I* going to afford to pay even $200 a month for insurance... never mind at what deductible?

You try living with a few heart defects from birth for a while.

They both suck. Single payer is the way to get universal health care. But Corporate America or the MSM or whoever decided that wasn't going to be in the cards this year. So I'm stuck picking between the two that are left. I weighed everything and decided that this election isn't about *ME* and my needs... I'm over 50 so if I slink off now and find a cave to die in who the hell will care? This election is about the next generation. We've already saddled them with $10 Trillion in government debt, global warming which may be the next great extinction event on this planet, endless war for the remaining oil OR a huge investment in renewables to replace the current energy usage OR a vastly downsized standard of living with a lot fewer people.

I'm not worried about health care one little bit, even though *I* need it more than most.

It's time we quit being the "me" generation.

I picked a leader for the next generation. Let's hope he addresses the issues that I have listed. They are more important than even poverty or health care.

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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. There are more important things than poverty or health care? I think you're in the wrong party
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Really...

Global Climate Change is the most important issue facing not only Americans, but mankind.

Period.

What will heath care or poverty matter if we cannot grow enough food to feed us... never mind us, feed the people of the world. What do you think will happen if a country that has military capability is faced with widespread and continuous famine?

And, coupled with that, why do you THINK we are in Iraq right now? Hunting for WMDs? Spreading freedom? Or maybe it's because they have either the second or third largest deposit of light sweet crude anywhere in the world? How much stuff that you eat or wear or how you get to work or heat and cool your home is dependent on oil and natural gas?

Health care is nice and all, and poverty would be nice to end, but survival issues (which we haven't faced in a long time) come first.

Not to mention that the resources we devote to those survival issues will, to a large degree, determine what we can do about the social justice issues.

And if you think I'm in the wrong party, then I guess I will go join the likes of Al Gore.

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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I hope nothing happens to you. I had cancer this past year and insurance, what about my friends?
What would happen to them?

You don't know what the premiuims would be.

They'd be less than what you're paying now!

You don't make sense.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. I don't know what will happen to your friends.

I don't know what the premiums will be. Why should there BE premiums in the first place? Why are we turning the insurance industry into a regulated monopoly... sort of like the phone company in the first 7 decades of the 20th century? Where they get a big say in what your long distance rates will be!

And I'm NOT paying $1200 a month now so that IF I get sick, I only have to cough up (literally) $10,000 before insurance kicks in. I don't have insurance. That's the lowest rate for insurance that I could find.

And neither Hillary's plan not Obama's plan is going to work for me either.

So why should it be a selector on choosing one candidate over another? Not to mention that any such plan is likely to be DOA in a Senate that we can't muster at least 61 votes. So why pick apart the details of a plan that simply isn't going to be waved into law on inauguration day or even 6 months later?

You want to support health care reform, support single payer. Write your Senators and congress people and tell them to look at what other countries have done and support a system like that. Watch Sicko. Whoever the nominee is, when they win in November, start pushing them then to cut out the bloodsucking insurance companies. What function do they perform other than shuffling paper around and taking a big cut? Do those people provide any service? Do they cure anyone? Do they change bedpans or take temperatures or wheel patients to labs? Why are they at the table OTHER THAN THEY CONTRIBUTED TO THE CAMPAIGNS? (and yeah, I'm mad about it)
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. How do her Lobbyist donors feel about this?
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Insurance companies know they have to change with her mandate, and have begun to plan.
If we get Obama or a Repug, we'll get nothing.

Hillarys is a mandate on the insurance companies.

She has fought for this her entire career! She wants to accomplish it more than anything.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. The only mandate to the insurance companies...
Under her plan is that they have to provide coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. The do not have to cover any pre-existing condition itself, and goodness knows what the premiums will be!
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Norwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. No, and I don't care for either of their healthcare plans
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. Romneycare II is NOT universal health care
It's forced corporate care, and it will allow corporations to garnish your paychecks. Seig HeilHill!
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. I am with you ---~SHE CAN IT-WE CAN DO IT~
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LulaMay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. We saw her in LA and she was so GREAT. She cares about people.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I'm jealous--I am hoping she makes it over here to WI some day. I will be there pronto!
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Yes she does. She was in Ga.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
32. k/r
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