Hillary, the archetypal "Witch," is enduring the fate of uppity women

[pnwmom]

throughout history.

Early on in Bill's administration, she dared to use her maiden name and she made a joke about staying home and baking cookies. And she's been a marked woman -- a Witch -- ever since.

In the eyes of the Hillary-haters, if a woman is smart and ambitious, then she can't be warm and feeling. She can have brains or heart, but not both. If this smart, ambitious woman shows evidence of human emotion, then it only goes to prove how CALCULATING she is. What a phony, say the haters. She can't be real.

No, she's inhuman. She's a WITCH. Her gifts are supernatural. Her capacity for evil is boundless.

We are living in a country where the current President is blotting out the words of the Constitution, line by line by line. We can't stop him, so we turn to an easy scapegoat. It's all Hillary's fault. Hillary, the witch. Time to dunk her in the pond and see if she lives. (If she does, then it's time to execute her. But at least we saved her soul.)

Anyone who fails to see the misogyny that has been engulfing her is part of the problem.

[libertee]

1. WoW! that was a great read...scary great...True, too!

[pnwmom]

4. Thank you, libertee. Scary and sad.

And I also feel sorry for the young women who don't see what is happening. I think many of them are in for a rude awakening one day.

[papau]

27. So many women hate women who do not "know their place in life"

[libertee]

61. Happens to me all the time..live in a senior citizens complex...

course, men hate me too so it all evens out.

[liberal renegade]

2. and in the meantime

Bush and his gang of thugs get away with crime after crime...

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. I couldn't agree more. No matter what she does, they nit pick it.

The good old boys club in DC has launched an all out assault against her campaign. WHY? She threatens their long-standing power over women.

[Baby Snooks]

165. Messalina

She is nothing more than a modern day Messalina. As for the good old boys, the neo-con boys like her. That's why they are putting their money behind McCain. Because they know he will lose. And she will win.

People do not dislike Hillary because she is a woman. They dislike her because they dislike her. The same way people dislike Nancy Pelosi.

They are Empresses. And they serve the Emperor. And that, quite frankly, is not a liberated woman.

[pnwmom]

220. Some people DO have misogyny underlying their very personal dislike

of HRC. I assume that's not true for you. But I'm mystified when people fail to see it -- it's all over DU, in every crack about her tears, her "fake" emotion, her pantsuits, her "shrill" voice, her cackle. When do you ever see another Dem criticized in that way? Do you see other Dems making fun of Obama's ears or his big teeth? No, of course not. But many of them never hesitate to ridicule HRC for her appearance. Why is that?

[misslauren66]

304. If you hate phoniness, that does not make you a misogynist

Many DUers seem to be implying that BO is a phony too, simply because they view him as a "cult of personality". It's not just about HRC (or about gender) in that regard. It's about who you believe is honest or dishonest and why. I find the the tearing-up in New Hampshire fair game because I believe it was staged and manipulative in the worst way, not because of any gender nonsense.

[pnwmom]

317. I think you regard her as a phony because you can't mentally

combine her ambition and intelligence with her having a warm (if reserved) personality.

I believe the incident in New Hampshire and the one a few days ago were both quite real.

[misslauren66]

341. Bzzzzt...sorry, thanks for playing.

I don't think ambition and intelligence are relevant to the argument. If someone has made it this far through the primary season, clearly they have both.

My argument is simpler than that. I don't believe that this warm (if reserved) personality is genuine because it seems to appear only when Hillary is possibly about to lose something big. I've never seen this otherwise, and IMO there is reason to see this as a trend. And my heart told me that the tearing up in NH was phony - just as many DUers, in their hearts, see Obama as a phony.

BTW - please don't play the "I'm smarter than you" game here. It's unbecoming and an argument you can't win on this board.

[xmas74]

306. Not true.

I just read a LTTE in the KC Star a few days ago. The writer (a woman) stated that she and her friends would never vote for Hillary because "she doesn't know what it's like to clean a house or load a dishwasher."

I live in Missouri. I hear similar comments all the time. For the average Joe it has nothing to do with your argument and everything to do with her being an "uppity woman" who doesn't know her place.

[polmaven]

192. That good old boys club

extends to the MSM as well......I think Matthews is going to have to go into long term psych counseling if Hillary wins this nomination......


Imagine it! A woman who is using just her first name (what is she? ashamed of her last name?) and who "is always clapping (what's with her always clapping)" Sheesh! Doncha gotta have a "guy" do this stuff?

[sallyseven]

242. matthews needs to go into counseling

never mind if she wins the nomination. He is already insane. He has that man thing that must drive his wife nuts. I'll bet he makes her put on Aqua Velva before she goes to bed at night.

[maq-az]

340. What does Matthews have

That Imus didn't have? He needs the boot and Schuster with him.

[pnwmom]

246. And doesn't it make you laugh to hear a guy with HIS voice

insinuating that HERS is unpleasant?

What a moron.

[OHdem10]

5. HRC gets the Working Class and Middle Class---=Uppity

Obama gets the LimoLiberals.

[libbygurl]

212. That's what I find interesting-the rich, highly educated, & college kids seem to go for...

...BO, while the older voters and working class tend to go for HRC. Do people with more real-world concerns find HRC's platform more meaningful?

[LandOLincoln]

328. Yes, of course we do. Besides, to us Hillary Clinton

is a known quantity, and we like what we know. We know the real Hillary bears no resemblance to the Hillary of the smears and talking points we've been hearing for 15 years now from the far left as well as the far right. We know the kind of crap that's been thrown at her and her family over the years, and it was OUR tax money Ken Starr spent trying to dig up dirt and coming up empty-handed year after year.

Some of us know, too, that Kerry and Kennedy are backing Barack Obama for reasons having everything to do with a last grab for power, and nothing whatsoever to do with the good of the party or of the the country.

So for some of us--to paraphrase Michael Corleone--this isn't business. This is very, very personal.

[libbygurl]

342. Yes, I agree with you on all points.

Thank you for your response, LandOLincoln!

I just donated again yesterday - twice in two days, too! I feel it worth it, since Hillary is a genuine fighter!

Hillary '08!

[dkf]

6. Why does it have to be this one or that one?

You assume that because a person thinks she is smart that they will think she is cold? I don't see what one trait has to do with the other. They are not opposite traits.

This makes no sense to me.

And I can't stand her because she is unethical in my eyes. What does that have to do with being a woman or a man?

[pnwmom]

11. It is not all people, it is misogynists who cannot conceive of

women being both smart and warm -- smart and feminine. Men are the ones who are "supposed" to be smart. The feminine ideal has never included the gift of intelligence. If a woman is smart, therefore, she can't be feminine -- she can't be warm and caring.

You may be unaware of the degree to which your views of Hillary have been influenced by all the haters who are at large.

[dkf]

31. No, I started disliking her when she and Bill inserted themselves

into the 2004 race. I felt they tried to kneecap Howard Dean.

And when I saw what her surrogates were doing, irresponsibly throwing in insinuations of Obama as a drug-dealer, I went BALLISTIC.

I truly feel I have only ramped up in my dislike due to her or her people's actions and yes, I turned hypercritical after that. But everything is rooted in true dislike of things she has done.

[pnwmom]

42. You had valid reasons for being upset with her.

But I hope "hypercritical" doesn't mean you joined the Witch hunters.

[krkaufman]

73. For example...

Clinton's call for seating of Florida delegates not entirely altruistic?

Clinton campaign tactics post-Iowa have heavily turned me off, from the distortion of Obama's Iraq position, to the "Jesse Jackson won" comment, to the above. These are *actions* with which I disagree, and behavior I want to purge from the Democratic Party.

[Andromeda]

263. You sound very young to me.

And the "unethical" part of your statement clearly shows that you have no basis for your accusation.

You believe all the lies of the right-wing and far-left propaganda machine. Please show me with, proof, that Hillary is unethical.

[Iceburg]

7. Forget the war in Iraq, there is a war on women happening right here in America /nt

[TriMetFan]

10. How right you are.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. Sorry, I'm not forgetting the war in Iraq. A lot of women are dying there. nt

[krkaufman]

75. Yeah, how many of the million dead and 4 million displaced in Iraq are women?

And how many centuries has women's right in Iraq now regressed? What about the rights of Jamie Leigh Jones and other women still at risk in an effectively lawless warzone?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

76. And how does elevating a privileged woman in this country to Pres. mitigate that?

Especially when she cast a vote in favor of the debacle.

[krkaufman]

79. "Forget the war in Iraq, there is a war on women happening right here in America"

... would seem to be prioritizing a domestic, social issue, framed rhetorically as a "war", over an actual war, and prioritizing relative injustice over absolute injustice. (There is no future remedy that can compensate the hundreds of thousands killed as a result of the war.)

Both issues *can* be addressed simultaneously, but the ref'd quote is declaring "Forget the war in Iraq."

[mrreowwr_kittty]

89. That's exactly what they want us to do.

I'm very disappointed in the feminist leaders who have been hoodwinked by the Clintons. All of a sudden it has become imperative to elect Hillary Clinton because she is the first viable female candidate. Pay attention to the emphasis on that word: HRC is not the first highly qualified woman to run for President. However, she is the first to have glowing opeds penned by Gloria Steinem in the NYT and to have the feminist community rally support for her based on her gender. Where were they when Carol Mosely Braun was running? Oh yeah, she wasn't viable. But HRC is and you are supposed to forget why HRC is viable and obediently vote for her.

[krkaufman]

92. We are on the same page.

I agree that it would be splendid to have broken the glass ceiling come this November, but I view it as a side benefit of our having two good candidates from which to choose, whose election would be historic, rather than as breaking the glass ceiling, relative to gender or race, being the motivating factor in voting for either.

I've been surprised by comments such as that of the NOW-NY leader, who castigated Ted Kennedy for having the audacity not to be supporting the female candidate in the race based on the candidate's gender.

[laconicsax]

261. relative injustice?

[SOS]

53. And yet...

how many American women, particularly millionaires at the pinnacle of American society, would willingly trade places with a woman in the living hell that is Iraq?

[sniffa]

56. Yeah, fuck all those dead, maimed and displaced Iraqis

And our international reputation be damned!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Forget the war in Iraq?

I guess you'd pretty much have to.

[cgrindley]

181. No. There isn't.

A war on women? that really is the stupidest thing I have ever read in my entire life.

[BeyondGeography]

8. I'm like Oprah...I look forward to the day when I will support a woman for the nomination

and Hillary is proving in this campaign that women are more than up to the task. Throw away her institutional advantages and she's still the strongest candidate in the field bar one, IMHO.

Misogyny is not the issue for me. I do, however, suffer from Clintonophobia, as does much of the party and the country. The symptoms are an aversion to closed government, special interest politics, top-down governance and, yes, a sense of entitlement in those to whom we would give power. Understand that many of us have put a lot of thought into this, and gender is the last thing on our minds.

[pnwmom]

16. I understand that it's perfectly possible to disagree with her or support

another candidate without being a woman-hater.

I'm not talking about those people. And I'm sure you've noticed the people I'm talking about, if you spend any significant time on these boards.

[BeyondGeography]

26. Agreed...just wanted to get that perspective in as well

And good luck today.

[pnwmom]

34. Thank you, BeyondGeography.

I won't be voting today, just watching. I like both candidates and will gladly support our nominee.

But I've been so sad to see how little headway we've made as a society -- if so much misogyny is rampant on DU, what is it going to take to get over this?

[AZBlue]

128. Excellent question.

And one that makes me sigh. I too, like BeyondGeography, did not vote for HRC but it's not because of her gender - it's actually in spite of her gender for me personally. Should she be the Dem nominee I will support and fight for her - it's just that I think BO would make the better candidate based upon issues and ideas.

But back to the original question: what is it going to take to get over this? I wish I had the answer. But, until that answer's clear, I know I'll keep fighting to find it!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Der Blaue Engel]

12. The freeps?

Have you read DU? With friends like these, who needs freepers?

[Clinton Crusader]

25. wow, how perfectly put!

[bidenista]

17. why post it, then?

I get a little tired of "oh look at how awful the freeps are being about Hillary" posts which then regurgitate their garbage so we can all look and take note.

Disingenuous.

[pnwmom]

29. I'm not talking about the freeps. I'm talking about DUers. n/t

[jgraz]

36. Ah, so it IS a transparent attempt to intimidate her detractors

And with that, you've lost any credibility you could possibly lay claim to.

[pnwmom]

40. You're wrong. I am neutral with regard to Hillary and Obama.

But I am not neutral with regard to Hillary and those particular detractors whose antipathy is clearly based on their own misogyny.

[jgraz]

62. Then why not qualify your post? You make it sound like it applies to anyone who doesn't like her

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

98. My post was in the context of all the vicious attacks just yesterday about

her entirely human reaction when her former boss of thirty-five years ago paid her an emotional tribute -- complete with his own tears -- about how much it has meant to him to see the girl he remembers accomplish so much.

And because she teared up in response, she was ripped to shreds by many here.

It didn't occur to me to qualify my post, because the context seemed so obvious.

[libbygurl]

213. Thanks for pointing that out again, pnwmom! nt.

[pnwmom]

229. You're welcome, libbygurl.

And thanks for your support. I knew I would run into some flak, but this whole thing has been really bothering me.

:shrug:

[polmaven]

248. Not only those here, but

...and I can't come up with a name here, on Dan Abrams' show the other night, when he was doing his "scoreboard, he showed a picture of a member of the Obama campaign who had said that "He (Obama) doesn't go into crying fits......." Crying FITS???? She teared up a little, and, as you pointed out, so did her former boss. An obvious reference to Hillary's gender.

Why wasn't that all over the airwaves for a week like every little thing said by anyone on the Clinton campaign is?

[ismnotwasm]

13. Yup

I never post here, but I have to chime in. Many of the venomous attacks on Senator Clinton are seeped in sexism and misogyny.

I understand disagreeing with her policies, politics or whatever, but how those objections are phrased are very telling. Sad really.

[Skidmore]

14. Oh, please.

Hillary and Bill have chosen to play a very divisive form of politics in a way that have set them up for some of the criticism they both receive.

[pnwmom]

20. Hillary has been the subject of misogynist attacks since Day 1 of her husband's

administration.

This is nothing new, and it isn't caused by her being divisive. What the hell was divisive about wanting to use her middle name? Or about wanting to use her talents?

This is about an uppity woman being made a scapegoat.

[divineorder]

208. Hill. Playing the Victim Card Again

How about people disliking her because she is so divisive and arrogant?

[pnwmom]

232. Yeah, she's arrogant all right. That's another word for uppity, isn't it?

How dare she be ambitious like that. And it's all her fault for being so divisive, of course. She brought it all on herself, trying to use three names, not baking cookies, standing by her man . . .

:sarcasm:

[robbedvoter]

15. I just read this to my 9 years old. She said: Wow!

We pulled the lever together for Hillary today - after giving her the history of the right to vote for women. This fit into that perfectly.

[pnwmom]

23. I am deeply touched. Thanks for telling me this.

And say hi to your daughter!

(P.S. My own just told me she's decided to vote for Obama, because she thinks there's too much antagonism out there. I bit my tongue. It's her decision, and I can't say it's an easy one.)

[xmas74]

307. My daughter voted with me on Tuesday also.

She was very excited when I asked her who it would be. (I already knew who we were voting for but wanted her to help.) She said she was all about the "girl power" so we know who we voted for. ;-)

[pampango]

18. And if Obama loses he endures the fate of uppity Blacks?

Is that really all this comes down to? Have Democrats backed ourselves into such a corner that the losing side is going to claim racism or misogyny?

It makes me wonder if Democrats will vote in the primary whichever way makes them feel a little less guilt-ridden for oppressing women and Blacks for so long rather than looking at the candidates for who they are. (Although I think that's may be the RW meme that we are always considering race and gender rather than letting treating people as people?)

[pnwmom]

28. Where are the racist threads on DU? The Obama-haters whose racism

underlies their hate?

I'm NOT saying that anyone who criticizes Hillary is a misogynist.

I'm saying that a certain kind of vitriol, a certain kind of venom, that you see all over these boards -- just as you on the freeper boards -- is happening because she's an uppity woman.

And if you don't see it, then maybe you should open your eyes a little wider.

[pampango]

60. I haven't seen the post that you have saying they hate Hillary because she is a woman.

And I haven't seen the threads with posters who hate Obama because he is black.

If you are saying that some people who express hatred for Hillary are clandestine misogynists who hide their true motivations in their hurtful posts, you are probably right.

Likewise I haven't seen posts in which an Obama-hater admits that it is solely because he is black. Are there posters with racist motivations who post against Obama? Just as likely, though that is hard to discern from afar.

There is plenty of venom here directed at both Hillary and Obama (we must be in our freeper phase during the primaries). Perhaps your eyes are just open wider than mine, so that you can ascertain the misogyny and racism of posters, while I have a harder time reading the ulterior motives of Clinton or Obama bashers.

[pnwmom]

99. I am talking about the many posters who deny to Hillary normal human feelings.

The ones who consider her cold, unfeeling, and evil and ascribe any touch of normal human emotion to a calculated act.

Such as the people who were all over her yesterday because she teared up when her former boss of thirty-five years ago paid her a very moving and emotional tribute -- complete with his own tears -- about how very proud he was to see how much she had accomplished over her life.

[hfojvt]

19. what about those who hate her

because she's a liar who does not care about the working class or the poor?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4401408&mesg_id=4401802

I hated Bill for the same reason, and many people believed Bill was just as calculating.

[pnwmom]

32. I don't know you or whether you are seeing her clearly.

But when I read people attributing to her almost supernatural ability to do evil, then I know they're after her because she's a Witch.

[hfojvt]

45. Some of that might be about the power of her/their machine

Some rightwingers believe in a vast left-wing conspiracy and some left-wingers believe in a vast DLC/corporate conspiracy. We seem to give Bush an almost supernatural ability to do evil as well. There are far too many misogynists in the world, but I am not sure if witchcraft is a strong meme any more, certainly not among people who grew up watching Elizabeth Montgomery on TV.

[Nederland]

21. Yeah that's it

The reason that people don't like Hillary for president has nothing to do with the fact that:

1) She is a corporate stooge.
2) She voted for the war.
3) She voted for Kyl-Lieberman.
4) Her campaign engages in borderline racist activities.

etc., etc.


No, just ignore all those things. It's all about the fact that she's a woman and anybody who doesn't like Hillary obviously hates women...

[Straight Shooter]

30. Here's a reason people don't want Barack for president:

1) Barack is a corporate stooge. (Hint: they're both corporatists)
2) Barack was against the war but votes to fund the war. Likes to have his war cake and eat it, too.
3) Barack NV for Kyl-Lieberman. (no vote)
4) Barack's campaign engages in borderline playing the race card activities. (No proof on either side for your number 4 or mine, but hey, it's so nice to throw out baseless accusations.)

Just ignore all that, especially the NV on Kyl-Lieberman, because it takes a man of great courage and commitment not to vote on something, but just to talk about it and use it as a political bludgeon against his opponent.

[Nederland]

65. Yeah right

I know the real reason you hate him is because he's black. :sarcasm:

[polmaven]

250. I haven't seen a single post

in this thread that says the OP "hates" anyone.

Sarcasm aside, I really wish we could see a lot less of that horrid 4 letter word.

[pnwmom]

37. I never said that. People can and do have valid reasons for not supporting her.

But too many people here are making her into not just another candidate they disagree with, but a Witch, inhuman and capable of every evil.

[GoldieAZ49]

22. now she is the victim? get off the cross we need the wood.

Hillary's dislike is of her own making, no one to blame but herself.

[pnwmom]

43. Oh yes, she was so wrong to use her maiden name or

to want to use other talents besides baking cookies.

What an awful woman. Clearly, she has ALWAYS only had herself to blame.

:sarcasm:

[GoldieAZ49]

55. cry me a river

[earthside]

24. Totally Wrong

What you refuse to understand is that Clinton's problems are about her as an individual -- her character flaws, her policy errors, her choices. But apparently being unable to admit those problems as part of her being a unique person, they must be conflated into some kind of general mysogynistic conspiracy.

I don't remember folks using the terms 'witch' and 'uppity' about Liddy Dole when she ran for president in 2000, or about Carol Moseley Braun when she ran in 2004.

You may keep trying to shift Hillary's distinct defects onto society, but her political problems are the consequences of her own actions, not because she happens to be female.

[pnwmom]

51. Liddy Dole was "ladylike." She didn't use her maiden name or make

jokes about cookies. She wasn't a Witch like Hillary.

Carol Moseley Braun wasn't viewed as a serious candidate, or she WOULD have ended up being attacked as a Witch, too.

[ShortnFiery]

33. Wow, her supporters are bringing up "the quintessential victim" defense that has served HRC so well

BUT, will it work now? :eyes:

[pnwmom]

48. I like Obama just as much, and I liked Edwards, too. This has nothing to do

with that -- I'm not voting in our caucuses because I'm feeling neutral with regard to the remaining two.

I wrote the OP because I have been sickened to see all the misogyny around here, not because I think HRC is perfect. I do think she is human, however, unlike some DUers.

[jgraz]

35. This may apply to freepers, but it's pretty rare around here

Most of the most vocal Hillary detractors on DU are against her politics. Contrast that with the large number of Hillary supporters who have said straight-out that they are voting for her -- at least in part -- because she's a woman.

Posts like this always make me suspicious about motivation, especially when they appear with no qualifications whatsoever. It's never "Repugs hate her" or "freeps hate her" -- the attack applies to everyone. And usually "hate her" is a synonym for "voting for someone else".

So I'm left to wonder if this is a simple analysis of the backasswards ways of some of our less-evolved citizens, or if this is another attempt to intimidate anyone on DU who would post a word against your candidate.

[pnwmom]

47. She's not my candidate. I'm neutral. I'll support the nominee.

It's not logical criticism of Hillary that I'm objecting to. It's the vitriol, the venom, the damned-if-she-does, damned-if-she-doesn't attitude that I see so frequently around here.

It's bad enough when Freepers do it. But when I see it happen here, among people who should know better, it is much more discouraging.

[mondo joe]

39. I'm reminded of Anne Sexton's "Her Kind".

Her Kind
by Anne Sexton

I have gone out, a possessed witch,
haunting the black air, braver at night;
dreaming evil, I have done my hitch
over the plain houses, light by light:
lonely thing, twelve-fingered, out of mind.
A woman like that is not a woman, quite.
I have been her kind.

I have found the warm caves in the woods,
filled them with skillets, carvings, shelves,
closets, silks, innumerable goods;
fixed the suppers for the worms and the elves:
whining, rearranging the disaligned.
A woman like that is misunderstood.
I have been her kind.

I have ridden in your cart, driver,
waved my nude arms at villages going by,
learning the last bright routes, survivor
where your flames still bite my thigh
and my ribs crack where your wheels wind.
A woman like that is not ashamed to die.
I have been her kind.

[pnwmom]

49. I've never read that poem and I love it! Thank you so much, Mondo Joe.

Now I'm going to have to go out and buy Anne Sexton.

:)

[mondo joe]

57. Ah, it's one of my favorites.

Glad you enjoyed.

[saltpoint]

78. mondo joe has a poem like that at the ready which means mondo joe is

a great American, IMO.

If you invest in Ann Sexton 9and you definitely should), give her collection TRANSFORMATIONS a look. There is one edition with an introduction by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

[pnwmom]

97. Thank you, too, Old Crusoe.

And I agree about Mondo Joe.

Any great poetry lover is special in my book.

:)

[OzarkDem]

193. Thanks, mondo joe

Great poem!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

41. My problem with Hillary Clinton is...

she isn't enough of an "uppity woman".

My idea of an "uppity woman" is Barbara Boxer, Cynthia McKinney, Maxine Waters, and Barbara Lee. Women who aren't afraid to take a stand when it counts. Women who aren't afraid to use their voices with passion and conviction to tell the truth when it counts. Women who do the politically inconvenient thing when it counts. Women who show genuine courage when it counts.

Sadly, Hillary Clinton lacks the true "uppity woman" spirit.

[pnwmom]

50. You may be right. And we can only imagine

how a truly uppity woman would be trashed, after seeing the trashing Hillary has undergone.

[topaz_eyes]

104. Amen to that!!

:yourock:

I wish one of those uppity women you mentioned had been a choice on the ballot today.

[MonumentMan]

44. Hillary

I view myself as being left of center, and worked on the Kerry campaign.

I think that Hillary's "us vs. them" mentality is exactly what is wrong with politics and I believe that her campaign is a personal vendetta against the right. To me, her campaign seems to be the "win for the sake of winning" power-grab and I am incredibly turned off. Like GWB, she wants to divide and conquer, and frankly, that just ain't my style.

Hillary represents THE establishment, THE politically connected, THE powerful, and so forth. Her gender means nothing, and take it from me, you cannot hide your true personality on the campaign trail.

[pnwmom]

52. The reason I wrote this is because of all the attacks yesterday

based on her very human reaction when her former boss at the children's center spoke a moving tribute about her, and he shed a few tears -- she was touched and teared up herself. And for that she was ripped to shreds.

What woman wouldn't have been touched by that tribute? Only a Witch.

[pnwmom]

54. I forgot to say,

welcome to DU, MonumentMan!

[Marrah_G]

46. Her being a witch would be a bonus in my eyes !

[topaz_eyes]

105. Me, too, Marrah.

Wouldn't that be something? A woman and witch with a chance to be President?

[crawfish]

58. Admit it...that is just a distraction...

to keep people from thinking about what she actually stands for.

[pnwmom]

100. No, it's a REACTION to the misogynistic attacks she faced yesterday

because she showed a normal human reaction -- a tear or two -- to the moving tribute paid to her by her former boss of 35 years ago (complete with his own tears) about how proud he was to see how much she'd accomplished over the years.

I am neutral with respect to Obama and Clinton.

But I'm not neutral about the attacks she's been facing simply because many people still can't deal that she's both a smart, ambitious, and a caring, feeling woman.

[mopinko]

59. i agree with you, but i still can't stand her.

i think especially that the right wing hate is pretty much as you say. but until a woman candidate gets up there and fights for the acceptance of the female half, instead of trying to out-boy-the-boys, this shit will go on. if she has gotten out there and said-

i would be all over here. i find her attempts to look manly disgusting.

[pnwmom]

101. The right wing hate is a given. But I was actually responding to DU-hate

yesterday, in all the attacks she was subject to because she was visibly touched by a very moving tribute paid to her by a former boss (who shed a few tears himself).

[AllyCat]

63. I like witches. But I don't like HRC's policies and plans.

That's why I don't like her. Her stands on the issues are what makes me not vote for her or support her in any way.

It has NOTHING to do with any of the other stuff you mentioned. Maybe others feel that way, but I don't.

[pnwmom]

287. "Maybe" others feel that way?

I believe you that you don't like her because of her stands on issues.

But are you telling me that you haven't seen all the vicious sexist attacks on her, based on her appearance, voice, and demeanor?

Those are the people I was reacting to in the OP, not people who disagree with her on issues.

[Forrest Greene]

64. Of Course, You're Not A Sexist

[pnwmom]

102. I certainly try not to be. How about you? n/t

[Vinca]

66. Sounds like another excuse for why she isn't mopping the floor with Obama.

For starters, she's not "uppity." She's a person who can certainly hold the office comfortably. Her only problem is that other people often want to hold the office as well. If you need to blame someone, blame Bill. When I watched him campaign for her, it almost always seemed to be more about him. He'd start talking about Hillary, then slip into "I this, I that" as if he was the candidate. He was really overshadowing her until they reeled him back in a little. Will her fate be because she's "uppity" if she wins?

[pnwmom]

110. No, it's a reaction to all the hate displayed here on DU yesterday when she

failed to meet people's standard of perfection by tearing up in response to a very moving tribute by a former boss who talked about how proud he was of all that she had accomplished over her life.

[Radical Activist]

67. First she used her maiden name. Then she changed to a hyphenated name under pressure.

Then she dropped the hyphen. Then she dropped her maiden name all together and now we have Hillary Clinton. Constantly shifting, changing and pandering. That's why people don't like Hillary Clinton. She even does it with her name. Its part of who she is to be that way. If she were more uppity I'd like her better.

[pnwmom]

103. She never used a hyphen. Apparently you don't have any women friends

who've changed their names over the course of their lives. My daughter is in her 20's and she still isn't consistent.

[Skittles]

186. oh please

what horse shit

[femrap]

68. K and R

And how many women were burned at the stake for being 'witches?' Estimates of 6 million, yet no museum showing this horror

[BooScout]

69. What saddens me most...

Is that I have seen so much of this behavior here on DU lately. Virulent attacks directed at Hillary and sadly fellow female DUers.:-(

[pnwmom]

127. Yes, me too. We expect this from the freepers, but not here on DU.

And when even the women buy into it . . . how sad.

[krkaufman]

70. Speaking for my mom, it's not that Hillary used her maiden name ...

... it's that she changed her name to accommodate her transient political needs.

Hillary Rodham
Hillary Rodham Clinton
Hillary Clinton

I don't discount misogyny and irrational hatred as being a factor in the excessive negativity associated with public opinion of Hillary, but these factors don't negate valid criticism or her past actions, either. (I don't care about the name change; but the Iraq vote is problematic.)

[RedShoesBlueState]

85. Hmmm. What's Obama's middle name again?

Politicians are in the business of managing perceptions and minimizing risk.
If they weren't, then I'm sure that Obama would be proudly including his middle name on the ballot.

I see no less hypocrisy in what he has done, than in what she has done. Neither bothers me.

And by the way, who in the world uses the term "maiden name" any longer? Egad. Pretty 19th century.

[krkaufman]

90. Re: "who in the world uses the term 'maiden name' any longer? How 19th century"

Ummm... the Original Poster. To make my post accurate, I had to correct it after previewing to change "last name" to "maiden name" to match the OPer's terminology. booYah! (Forsooth and gadzooks... do please note that "egad" isn't exactly a new entry in M-W.)

Re: "Politicians are in the business of managing perceptions and minimizing risk." -- Agreed. Politicians must continually calculate the risks associated with their positions, statements and actions. However, some found Hillary's name gymnastics to be particularly calculating. As I said, I couldn't care less about Hillary cycling her name to match her outfits; I'm merely reporting what a handful of people I know have expressed. (Note that I was intentionally being adolescently antagonistic with the "outfits" comment.)

Re: "I see no less hypocrisy in what he has done, than in what she has done." -- I don't see "hypocrisy" in either. But I do so a difference in your example cases. I'm not sure that many candidates ever commonly traffic their middle names, though some sprinkle-in the middle initial for whatever reasons. Obama going on the ballot and self-referencing himself as Barack Hussein Obama would be peculiar, just as it would for John Whatever Edwards to do the same. Obama has taken no actions regarding his name; though his opponents (including Clinton-supporter Bob Kerrey) have. A more comparable action by Obama, in relation to Hillary's name tweaks, would be advertising his middle name "Hussein" to Arabic and Muslim demographics while keeping it mum amongst the Christian and Jewish communities.

Salutations and glorious benedictions to you.

[pnwmom]

112. I doubt you are a woman, because most married professional women have

gone through some struggles trying to decide which of several options to take regarding their names. It is not "peculiar" for any woman to try to keep her maiden name and use it along with her married name. It is also not peculiar for the woman to eventually decide it's too cumbersome or otherwise inconvenient and to drop it -- or to use three names in some situations, and two in others. That's what I do. Legally, on paper, I use three names. In other situations I use two.

[krkaufman]

143. I'm sorry, but where did I say it was "peculiar" for Hillary to go by ...

... Hillary Rodham, or Hillary Rodham Clinton, or Hillary Clinton. I said it would be peculiar for Obama or Edwards to do so.

What seems, to some, as calculating (to use my actual words) is that Hillary Clinton has adjusted her preferred moniker based on electoral needs.

[pnwmom]

163. As I said, it is very common for married women, although not for men,

to use various combinations of their names at different times.

Which makes me think that you must be a man, or you'd understand this.

[krkaufman]

182. Anyone who's been in the workplace in the last 30 years "understands" it.

What you speak to is typically related to the need for consistent "branding" in the corporate world, to retain one's reputation and name recognition. But it doesn't explain Hillary's shifting names to suit her latest political tack, which was the point I'd made, in relating the opinions I've received.

[pnwmom]

234. She tried to use her maiden name as a middle name, probably because

she still felt a link to it. I do, to my own.

And then she drew holy hell for that, so she backed off.

Yeah, let's put her in the stocks. She deserves it.

:sarcasm:

[krkaufman]

243. Hey, I think it's hypercritical, but I'm just passing along what's been related to me.

The only comment I'd make on your speculation is that, if I recall correctly*, the name changes occurred during the earlier Clinton presidential campaigns, so it wasn't just a matter of a change of attitude. The complaint is that the changes seemed politically calculated to attract or avoid offending (I've no clue which, anymore) voters.

re: drawing holy hell... she's been drawing it since before we knew her. The Right is truly loathsome. But I kinda like that they're spending all their time, now, giving it to one of their own.


* p.s. I suppose I could do some googling, but neither of us thinks this is that important, right? (I gotta drive through 20 miles of snow to get to Amtrak in a bit, so I'm hoping you say "right!") :)

[pnwmom]

244. Drive safely. Twenty miles in snow doesn't sound fun!

I used to like it back when I was a kid in the midwest, but everything changed when I learned to drive.

Have a nice day.

:hi:

[krkaufman]

262. Thx. Normally I wouldn't mind, except I've been up all night. n/t

[pnwmom]

111. As a woman, I am frequently asked to provide a "maiden name" on forms.

Passports, driver's licenses, birth certificates . . .

It may have ancient origins, but the term is still in common usage.

[pnwmom]

109. She and Obama both dropped their middle names for "transient political needs"

-- but that's not acceptable for her.

Lucky for Barrack Hussein Obama, he's not held to the female standard of perfection. At least not among DUers. (He obviously is on the Freeper boards.)

[krkaufman]

148. Really? He "dropped" his middle name for political needs?

When, exactly, had he ever broadcast his name as Barack Hussein Obama?

How can he "drop" something he'd never... errr... held?

[pnwmom]

157. Just because he dropped it when he was younger doesn't mean

he didn't drop it for political purposes.

It's easier to say Barrack Obama. It's easier to say Hillary Clinton.

No difference.

[krkaufman]

158. The point has wandered far afield, and I fear it shan't return. n/t

:shrug:

[Skittles]

185. who the fuck broadcasts their middle name? nt

[pnwmom]

235. Millions of women do. Open your eyes. n/t

[Skittles]

184. WTF???

why can't someone call themselves what they want whenever they want?

[krkaufman]

264. Good question.

Regards,
Leroy Bugtussle

[BlackVelvet04]

72. I just love women who always find some

reason, a lofty sounding reason of course, that they just can't support another woman. If only it were the "right woman"....that perfect ideal, paragon of virtue who is 200 times smarter, who is just the right amount of attractive, yada yada yada. It's just never THE woman of the moment.

[Cant trust em]

81. Should it be the "woman of the moment"

I'd get the point more if you took it from the position of a man. If men were saying "I'd vote for her if, reason XYZ were true".

Or maybe you're getting to the idea that sexism pervades even the women's community?

[BlackVelvet04]

82. Absolutely.....

sexism pervades the women's community. I've heard women say they would like a woman president but a woman can't be commander in chief. WTF? I find that all of the lofty sounding reasons usually, not always, are spouted by women who will never support another woman, they never do, no woman is ever perfect enough for them. When push comes to shove they choose the known of supporting a man. Just watch....we'll get posts about how Hillary is just too evil to support. How they are just too principles to vote for someone JUST because she's a woman. Or how sexist it is to vote for a woman because she's a woman. Women have always been each other's greatest critics and often each other's worst enemy.

[Cant trust em]

87. I mostly agree with you - 90%

The whole women can't be Commander in Chief is crap. The Hillary cries and is too weak to be president is crap. The Hillary stuck by Bill during the Lewinsky affair and anyone who would stand with a philanderer can't be trusted thing is crap. People will always try to rationalize their subconcious feelings with something tangible.

I do think, however, that voting for anyone for issues unrelated to politics (gender, race, sexual orientation) are goofy.

I'm more interested in how we subconsciously assign roles to people based on gender. People who would never think they are sexist because they believe in universal suffrage or equal pay for equal work might discount Hillary for reasons that they never imagined. It's called the glass ceiling because we can't always see that it's even there. Hillary faces a different kind of discrimination because it manifests itself in ways that people didn't even know they possessed.


I'm a man, BTW, so maybe I'm totally full of shit.

[pnwmom]

164. For what it's worth, I think you are very perceptive.

My father thought he was a big feminist because he wanted all of us not only to have careers, but to achieve in male-dominated fields. (Nursing, education, journalism -- not good enough.) But he, like many men in his generation, had a deep strain of misogyny he wasn't aware of. "She's so opinionated," he would say. Or, "she's such a witch." Or "what a bitch."

He was often full of it.

But you don't seem to be.

[Cant trust em]

308. The first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem

I try to look at situations objectively. If that means putting myself under the microscope, then so be it.

It's funny that you mention the word bitch. If I were pissed of at a guy I would call him an asshole. There is no genderless phrase that I could use for a woman to mean the same thing. Bitch is the only one we have and that has some kind of sexual/whoreish implication to it. Some comedian or pop culture icon needs to invent some other word we can use for this. This is a weird concept, but it's like even our language has hidden misogynist tendencies.

[Perry Logan]

74. How fitting that Hillary--the greatest recipient of right-wing slander--will become President.

[saltpoint]

77. I'm having some trouble with your If A is true, then B is also true construct.

No one remembers the "cookie" era much. The CBS 60 Minutes interview is resonant for some, but not most, of voters these days. Her husband's roaming eye was well-known in Democratic circles long before the New Hampshire primary in 1992.

Men and women can be smart and ambitious and most of us know it and vote accordingly. Once in a while someone comes along with both qualities plus compassion in public service. FDR certainly. John and Robert Kennedy certainly. Barbara Boxer and Bella Abzug certainly. It appears to me that it concerns who they are as people and not which sex/gender they represent.

Senator Boxer, a brainy, ambitious, compassionate, and IMO brilliant soul, counts among her supporters quite a few million people who are male.

You and I agree on the damage Bush has done to the sense of public service generally and to the dignity of the Constitution's role especially, but your next point following that is "It's all Hillary's fault. Hillary, the witch." That point seems to come out of nowhere and is unpersuasive. What point is being made? Why would the Bush administration be Hillary's fault? It's the Bush administration's 8 years and they've dropped the ball. They must shoulder the blame. Let's put it where it goes.

A male voter who supports Boxer, for example, might still be a misogynist. A male voter who does not support Hillary Clinton may not be. Either might be and either might not be.

The misogyny card isn't working for me regarding the HClinton bid for the White House.

[pnwmom]

119. The fact that "no one remembers the cookie era much" is part of the problem.

Many people here don't realize that they're being influenced by attitudes against Hillary that were developed in the media long ago, based on events as trivial as whether or not she baked cookies or used her maiden name. The hate isn't some new thing, developed in response to recent actions that Hillary has taken. (I'm distinguishing hate here from normal, valid criticism.) The hate had its roots long ago, in a misogynistic reaction to an obviously smart, ambitious-for-herself woman.

Up till Hillary Clinton, the smart First Ladies cleverly limited their ambition to their husbands' careers.

You misunderstood me when I said "It's all Hillary's fault." I wasn't speaking for MYSELF. I was parroting the throng of DUers who seem to want to blame her for every evil -- who act as if she's the female equivalent of George Bush. I don't believe that AT ALL. You and I clearly agree on that.

[saltpoint]

301. Well, media attitudes have changed, haven't they? When I was a wee lad,

there were no women newscasters, no Afro American newscasters, etc. on the tv.

Very few of either were in the U.S. Senate. That's changed.

Very few were governors. That's changed.

I think there's a disconnect between the assertion that voters supporting Clinton support her on the single issue of her being a woman. I think that's true of some percentage, but not a majority. It certainly is not hurting her among people aware of her historical potential to be the first female president, but if she does not win nomination, IMO it will not be because she is female. If she loses nomination it will be because of the strategies her campaign adopted. I'm not very impressed with her chief advisors.

Obama's campaign is capturing the overriding theme of unity and has inspired a lot of support on that alone. If Clinton's detractors here or elsewhere oppose her because she's a woman, which I find questionable, then would it be correspondingly so that Obama's supporters support him because he's a man? I find that also questionable.

So the take-away for me is that these two candidates vying for the nomination of my party are not "female" or "Afro American" as imperatives. They are Democrats, and our job is to decide which one can forge the most persuasive coalition to undo the damage of the last 8 years.

I'm not arguing that sexism is not still prevalent in many theaters of American life. But I think the Democrat who wins our nomination will win because of his or her talent for unifying electable numbers and inspiring for the common good.

[spooky3]

209. Old Crusoe, as a fellow Edwards supporter, I think this would be helpful

Go to Mediamatters.org and read through some of the MANY threads documenting sexist media treatment of H. Clinton. Mediamatters.org provide many examples of how the sexism is manifested, as pnwmom has clearly and repeatedly said, separate and apart from legitimate differences on policy grounds, voting records, etc., with Clinton. Although pnwmom is not talking about the media, many of the examples would also fit the situation you are describing. And though mediamatters.org targets right wing misinformation, what's particularly troubling here is that some of the same behavior has been manifested here at DU. Somehow some progressives seem to have a blind eye to biases based on gender, and that is disturbing. Pnwmom's not playing a "misogyny card"; she is pointing out sad realities.

Further, social science research supports what she is saying about the difficulty that many people have - male and female - with women who don't fit sex role stereotypes.

I had to switch to CNN from MSNBC because I got so sick of the subtle manifestations last night--the downward spinning of her successes by the all-male, except for one or two Republican or Obama-loving MSNBC female, team; Joe Scarborough's mocking her "clapping" as she began her live speech, etc. Interestingly, the night before, Dan Abrams predicted that that very thing would happen, though he didn't explicitly attribute it to sexism. I wonder how he knew... Much as I like Keith Olbermann, he is as guilty of it as his colleagues. For example, he loves to talk about how Obama has closed such huge gaps in short times, implying that Clinton's support is badly declining, etc., but makes no mention of the fact that old polls mostly reflect name recognition, which everyone said at the time. Believe it or not, CNN was far less guilty of this, so I plan to watch their future coverage.

While Boxer has many male supporters, do you not find it interesting that she has not run for President?

[saltpoint]

300. spooky3, I think Boxer has not run for president because she would

frighten the herd.

She's too far to the left for many Americans' tastes, which is why I like her in the first place.

And again, we come back to her very significant and very loyal male voter support.

If Sen. Boxer can win repeated state wide ballots in diverse California, how can a case be made that a "sexist" media, for example, impedes her?

There is a dangerous notion that voters vote simplistically. Some do, certainly. I like to think of those voters as "Republicans." Democrats are a diverse bunch, even pointedly so. Many people in New York City vote for Bella Abzug for mayor in the mid-to-late 70s and a couple years later, voter for her against incumbent Patrick Moynihan for the U.S. Senate race. I was one of those Democrats supporting her. I didn't vote AGAINST Moynihan because he was male.

Do you see my thought on this? I'm not arguing that sexism does not exist. I am arguing that it is not the imperative of most voters who are selecting Obama over Clinton for our nomination.

[pnwmom]

325. I don't think it is the "imperative" of most Obama voters either, Old Crusoe.

My comments weren't restricted to Obama voters and they ONLY applied to Hillary-haters pushing sexist memes.

[saltpoint]

330. In truth, pnwmom, your OP didn't really make that clear.

Of the two limelight candidates we have left, both have potential Achilles' heels, but there is an added danger in defending them on grounds of the least complex (and therefore troublesome) denominator: race and gender.

One main point of the women's movement, if I may say so, was that gender NOT be an impediment to advancement in careers or respect in society. Senator Clinton loses ground when someone defends her on grounds of gender, IMO. This isn't about cookies and it isn't about crying in public. It's about economic democracy and global cooperation. Women and men can excel at either or both. Senator Clinton's chances for the White House, IMO, ride on public perception of her abilities in both those areas and not on the notion that she's female.

[pnwmom]

334. I understand that now. At the time, after all the attacks on her the previous

day because of her brief touch of positive emotion, I thought the context was obvious.

And I'm not saying that anyone should vote for Clinton BECAUSE she is a woman. I'm saying that some people, often unconsciously, are especially vehement or unfair in their attacks because of underlying sexism. And that it would help to bring this out into the open and separate it from the REAL issues that matter.

[saltpoint]

336. Agree. We can see it down any sidewalk or in any shop in the country, but

isn't it refreshing when it's conspicuos by its absence?

I've always felt that the person who blasted gender roles out of the known universe was Janis Joplin.

Here was a young woman from Port Arthur, Texas, of all places, suddenly singing in hot music venues in San Francisco to genuinely devoted listeners.

Her band, all male, sucked. I'm sorry for people who liked that band, but I never did. I thought they were little better than scruffy junior high schoolers playing Rock Band out in the garage.

Imagine what Janis Joplin would have sounded like if she'd had a really excellent blues rock band playing behind her. As it was, she still did remarkably well.

Every gauge of gender restriction went out the window posthaste when Janis took the stage and broke into the first verse of a song. One critic described it as a voice like "a giant talon rearing out of her body and into the souls of the audience" -- or something close to that paraphrase.

[pnwmom]

337. I haven't thought of her in a long time. Thanks for the reminder. n/t

[pnwmom]

324. Thanks, spooky3, for the thoughtful post. n/t

[Cant trust em]

80. great subject line, excellently written n/t

[pnwmom]

122. Thank you, Cant trust em. n/t

[RedShoesBlueState]

83. Freeps don't have a corner on Misogyny

Some of the posts I've read here at DU have been truly depressing. I find myself thinking, "If these are the attitudes of people that call themselves Progressives and Democrats, then we truly haven't come very far." Hateful, sexist remarks focused on her appearance (which are sooo revealing of their sexism; after all, women are supposed to shut up and be pretty) or thinly veiled "bitch" references. In fact, that's one of the things I find distasteful about Obama. He uses code phrasing to call her a bitch.

[pnwmom]

124. You're absolutely right. In fact, I wrote this as a reaction

to the hate I saw spewed HERE yesterday, after she teared up when her former boss shed a few tears while paying her a very moving tribute.

Welcome to DU, RedShoesBlueState.

[RedShoesBlueState]

226. Thanks for the welcome

And thanks for your responses to several of my posts. It seems we have similar sensibilities. Nice to meet you.

[Maven]

84. Spot. On.

K/R

[pnwmom]

245. Thanks, Harvey. n/t

[saltpoint]

86. If there are any Katha Pollitt fans hereabouts besides me who follow her writing,

here is her recent endorsement.

Note the as-usual integration of an extremely wide-ranging field of considerations packed into all her sentences.

_ _ _ _ _

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/anotherthing?bid=25&pid=279745
_ _ _ _ _

An Edwards supporter, I'm staying neutral in the nomination race at the moment, but felt that this piece was worth a look.

[Jed Dilligan]

88. Funny, I have a totally different stereotype of her

To me, she's Miss Perfect: a platinum-haired princess who never got a B+ in her life, who was bound for the Seven Sisters and/or Ivy League from the moment she was conceived, who has never gone without anything she wanted. Nothing wrong with all that, except that it has made her cold, bossy, and intolerant of anyone who ever faltered or went off the beaten path. Sure, she has emotions, but they are all wrapped up in herself and her ambitions. When she cries or "tears up," it's not for the homeless or the children in Africa, it's for her career and campaign.

I have known scores of women like this, and they have their male counterparts--not a single thing I said above doesn't apply to them, except the Seven Sisters and the -ss in princess. It has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her social class. When I look at her I just see everyone who has ever scorned me from a superior position or shut me out of an opportunity. I see the entitled mainstream, drunk on its power to squelch difference. Is it a stereotype? Of course it is. But she's done nothing to disprove it to me. My stereotype of black-clad people with crowbars is that they are trying to steal something. It would be smarter to act on that stereotype than not.

I believe in Barack Obama because he knows what it's like to be different. He will not pursue one-size-fits-all policies that benefit "his kind of people" only. He has been the black guy in Hawaii, the African/White guy uncomfortably blending with Black Americans, the American kid overseas, the fatherless son. He understands the diversity and uniqueness of each and every American experience. I believe that he does not have it in his heart to steamroll the edges to prop up the middle.

[topaz_eyes]

107. This is an excellent post.

I especially agree with these lines:

"It has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her social class. When I look at her I just see everyone who has ever scorned me from a superior position or shut me out of an opportunity."

[pnwmom]

116. No, you have the typical gender based stereotype of her.

Under the old gender stereotypes, women were supposed to be driven by their emotions, men by their intellect. A woman who was smart was unwomanly. A man who showed any emotion (except anger) was unmanly.

The corollary to this is if a woman was obviously smart and ambitious, then she wasn't a "real woman." If she was smart, she couldn't be feeling as well -- she had to be cold and calculating. If she appeared otherwise, then it had to be just an act.

For whatever reason, you believe that HRC fits the classic stereotype. I don't believe that. I think it's just a box that people want to stuff her into.

[Jed Dilligan]

118. Did you reply to the right post?

Because what you said makes no sense at all as a response to my post.

I'm talking about privileged kids who think that they are perfect and anyone who isn't like them isn't worthy. I feel the same way about Mitt Romney.

on edit: I do admit a certain level of "reverse racism" that contributes to my assessment. But gender? Bah. Only the privileged races and classes get to play boys against girls in the professional world.

[pnwmom]

120. Read your first paragraph again and you (might) see what I mean.

"To me, she's Miss Perfect: a platinum-haired princess who never got a B+ in her life, who was bound for the Seven Sisters and/or Ivy League from the moment she was conceived, who has never gone without anything she wanted. Nothing wrong with all that, except that it has made her cold, bossy, and intolerant of anyone who ever faltered or went off the beaten path. Sure, she has emotions, but they are all wrapped up in herself and her ambitions. When she cries or "tears up," it's not for the homeless or the children in Africa, it's for her career and campaign."

In other words -- she's a straight A student -- smart. Therefore she's cold, bossy, and intolerant.

This is the classic gender based criticism of smart women. If they're smart and ambitious, they're not presumed to be capable of warmth. They're not real women. They're witches.

[Jed Dilligan]

121. "Nothing wrong with all that, except..."

Not every privileged child turns into a bully. Just most of them. I'm still waiting for her to show she isn't one.

[pnwmom]

131. The funny thing is, Jed, that the biggest bully I've known personally

came from an extremely underprivileged background. And happened to be gay, too -- not one of the insiders.

Being a bully isn't necessarily related to whether or not you grew up feeling privileged. It has to do with a lack of empathy, and that can occur in any class, race, or gender.

[Jed Dilligan]

134. Well, rich white people aren't known for having much empathy.

Their bullying is different because it is supported by social structures.

I have lived my life as a freak, an outsider. I don't consider myself against the mainstream (much of the mainstream tends to differ on this). When I look at would-be leaders and authority figures, I am very sensitive to whether or not they make me feel included. I don't think Hillary thinks about people like me when she thinks about America, or if she does, she is thinking about how to discount us. If you're not in the homeowner, f/t permanent employee, married with kids box, or at least aspiring to be there, she has nothing to say to you.

Barack, on the other hand, seems like he has a vision of all of America, in which even the weirdos, the wanderers, the perennial dreamers, the middle-aged guys drinking 40s on park benches are part of the social fabric. He wants to work things out for everybody instead of creating a one-size-fits-all solution for the kind of people he prefers.

I have no problem living at the margin of political life, as long as I don't get swept up in something that wasn't meant for me and will leave me worse off than before.

[pnwmom]

138. Obama disappointed me, and many other supporters of the GLBT

community, when he paid that homophobic preacher to act as his Master of Ceremonies on an Obama fundraising tour, and gave the guy an opportunity to spew his homophobia in a thirty minute diatribe on Obama's stage.

So I'm less confident than you are that he really sees all Americans as being part of the social fabric. I see no reason to believe he's more inclusive than Hillary is.

[Jed Dilligan]

139. I don't know about the whole McLurkin thing

I had never heard of this person before seeing Obama smeared with the association. Is it possible that he just thought he was a popular black Christian entertainer? I've never seen it documented that Obama caused this to happen in order to spread homophobia.

I feel that slurs about Arab/Semitic "slumlords" in the black community during an MLK Day debate are just as offensive as "ex-gay" proselytizing.

Mostly, I just think that Obama knows what it feels like to be different, to be an outsider. Maybe he did overtly spread homophobia at a campaign event. But I don't see him pursuing policies that help the middle by hurting the fringes, the way Bill Clinton did. I never voted for him.

[misanthrope]

145. Your rather convenient editing left this tidbit out...

..."I have known scores of women like this, and they have their male counterparts--not a single thing I said above doesn't apply to them, except the Seven Sisters and the -ss in princess. It has nothing to do with her gender and everything to do with her social class."

Sounds to me like Jed is calling a selfish asshole a "selfish asshole," regardless of the chromosomes.

[pnwmom]

146. There is nothing in Hillary's past that justifies your slur. n/t

[misanthrope]

149. I was referring to the characterization...

...Jeez Louise. Or is that sexist too because I used the word "Louise?"

[Kitty Herder]

294. Yes, I read his post as being about class, not gender. nt

[NashVegas]

140. Would You Say She Hasn't Worked Hard For Her Successes?

When I look at Hillary I see someone who was very fortunately born into a good family and received a lot of the breaks that come with that.

I also see someone who received the accompanying ethic good families teach their young: to lead; to organize; to be aggressive about going after what they want; to set goals and work their butts off to achieve them. All the while she was Mrs. Clinton (Rodham-Clinton, if you prefer) in the 1970s and 1980s she was busy working on her personal/professional goals.

[Jed Dilligan]

141. Hard work or not, I've found the empathy to be lacking

in people from her background. I was happy today to take my very first chance in all history to vote against them.

[misanthrope]

144. Excellent post!!**nm

**

[TheDonkey]

91. HR turns HRC turns HC = Calculating

emotion chip = calculating
cackle = scary

[RedShoesBlueState]

94. Interesting choice of words

I find "calculating" to have a more negative edge to it, and it's about one step away from "scheming" -- which we all know is an adjective continually reserved for desribing the female gender.
This reminds me of a thing I saw a long time ago about how the language used to describe traits in women is oftentimes more negative, while the words for the same trait in a man are positive. I wish I could find it now, but the examples I remember were: A woman is "aggressive," and a man is "assertive." A woman is "inflexible" and a man "confident in his position."

As I said above, Obama doesn't use his middle name. Calculating? I see it as strategic.

The gymnastics that Hillary has performed with her name don't bother me, any more than Obama's failure to include his middle name on his resume bothers me. Strategic.

And by the way, picking on Hillary's laugh is something I'd expect to hear in Free Republic.

[pnwmom]

125. I have had exactly the same thoughts recently about language.

HRC is so often criticized for being calculating. How could anyone be elected President who wasn't?

And I almost wrote about that instead. Then this witch stuff popped out.

[topaz_eyes]

108. Would you call a man's laugh a cackle?

Ya know, I never noticed Hillary's laugh until some right-winger described it as a cackle. I still don't hear a cackle, just the laugh of a middle-aged woman. To some, however, that's automatically a cackle. I never would have thought much about her appearance if people like Rush Limbaugh didn't bring it up. It's this kind of focus on personal characteristics like the quality of Hillary's laugh or what she's wearing that show us how far women have yet to go before we are judged by the content of our character and not the appearance of our bodies or the sex appeal of our giggles.

[El Pinko]

170. My mother's laugh is a bone-chilling cackle.

Hilary's laugh isn't bad at all. The people who attack Hillary on her laugh have never heard my mom's laugh.

Even when I was a kid, it gave me the creeps. (She's okay otherwise, just has a horrible laugh.)

[pnwmom]

247. I myself could never be President because of my

sneeze. Or sneezes, to be precise. Loud and repeated, over and over again. The MSM would have a hey-day with me.

But yeah, Hillary's laugh is nothing.

[pnwmom]

173. Welcome to DU, topaz_eyes! n/t

[pnwmom]

115. Many many women have gone through a few name permutations.

Others use different combinations of names in different circumstances.

I use three names on legal papers, two in most other situations.

But let Hillary act as a normal woman and watch her being attacked -- she'll never meet the required standard of perfection.

[Arugula Latte]

93. That may be true for many, but there are also MANY of us who are feminists

who dislike Clinton. Just because I'm a female feminist doesn't mean I automatically like and support all women who run for office.

[pnwmom]

117. Of course it doesn't. Lots of feminists support Obama for various reasons.

I was reacting to all the misogyny displayed here yesterday -- when Clinton showed a normal human reaction, tearing up when a former boss from 35 years ago paid her a very moving tribute -- shedding his own tears -- about how proud he was to have witnessed all that she had accomplished over the decades.

The misogyny displayed here yesterday was typical of the venom that people have spewed at this uppity Witch ever since she made her entrance onto the national scene.

[eridani]

95. And the women of Iraq? Are they "uppity" too? n/t

[pnwmom]

114. Absolutely, I'm sure many of them are -- or would be if they stepped out

of line.

Strong women everywhere are liable to be attacked.

[eridani]

152. Clinton voted to bomb the shit out of them and destroy their infrastructure n/t

[pnwmom]

279. She voted to give Bush the authority to attack Iraq IF Hussein refused

to allow the UN inspections to go forward. None of the Democrats voted for what transpired.

Beyond that, people need to remember that the Dems had a terrible choice to make that October. Bush had vowed to attack Iraq, and he had a written opinion from his attorney general that said he could do so without ANY approval from Congress. He was prepared to go ahead, but many Democrats thought that would be setting a terrible precedent. Lugar, Biden, and Hagel met with the White House to draft a compromise IWR. (The White House version would have allowed Bush to attack terrorists ANYWHERE, without any conditions.) If the Dems had voted en masse against the compromise IWR, it wouldn't have passed. But they already knew that the Rethugs were all but certain to take over the Congress in January. At that point, Bush could have gotten a Republican Congress to pass any IWR that he wanted -- a total blank check.

So this was the real choice they faced: help to pass an IWR that was limited to Iraq only, and was preconditioned on Hussein failing to allow the inspectors in. Or defeat it and watch Bush being handed a blank check in January. If that had happened, I'm sure we'd be in Iran already. And I don't see how we'd be better off.

[eridani]

289. Or stand up for what is right.

The majority of Dems in the House voted against this, and those who did are mostly still there. If Feingold could see it, Clinton should have as well.

[pnwmom]

290. Standing up for "what is right" would have led to standing by while

the Rethug majority in January gave Bush a war resolution that allowed him to attack not only Iraq but Iran, Syria, virtually anywhere (Hagel specifically mentioned Greece.)

I fail to see how that would have been the best thing to do.

[eridani]

291. There has been a Rethug majority since 1994

No thanks to the Clintons.

[pnwmom]

293. No, not in both houses. But if you had been right,

then every Democrat in the Senate could have voted against the IWR and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

[eridani]

295. They should have done so anyway

It is utterly vile to go along with Rethug propaganda without even bothering to try to put out a countermessage.

[pnwmom]

296. It would have been utterly vile to attack Iran,

as it was utterly vile to attack Iraq. At least the compromise IWR prevented us from making the same mistake twice.

[eridani]

297. Clinton voted for Kyl/Liebermann

She has no objections to attacking Iran as far as I can see.

[pnwmom]

298. Then you're not listening. She's stated very clearly and repeatedly

that Bush does NOT have authority to attack Iran.

The version of Kyl/Liebermann that was passed was gutted compared to the original version. That was actually a success for the Dems.

[eridani]

302. Supposedly he wasn't going to attack Iraq either

There must be some reason why most real Democrats voted against it, no?

[pnwmom]

305. It is possible for people to have honest disagreements, and I think

this was one of those cases.

But if one of her reasons was political -- knowing what she'll face in the general election -- I personally don't find it all that horrifying. Kyle-Lieberman does not allow Bush to attack Iran. He's on notice about that.

Politics is politics. It's a messy business.

[eridani]

310. Technically it doesn't. In practice-

--it's putting the car keys in the hands of a known drunk driver yet again.

[pnwmom]

311. Bush can't hide behind K/L as he did behind the IWR because Reid, HRC,

and others have already gone on record, in advance, saying specifically that he faces impeachment if he does so.

They did learn SOMETHING from his actions after the IWR.

[eridani]

303. "Attacked" as in burned alive, or dying from the destruction of your medical system?

[pnwmom]

314. What do you mean "your" medical system? n/t

[LadyVT]

96. I'm for Witch HIllary!!!!!!!

Go Hillary '08!

[DemGa]

106. It won't be easy to forgive the left's attacks on Hillary

and their alliance with right-wing talking points.

Not easy at all.

[pnwmom]

113. There's a lot of bitterness, I agree.

It's been sickening to see all the venom that's been spewed.

[LittleClarkie]

123. I just don't like the way she plays politics sometimes.

And I prefer Obama to her.

[Andromeda]

265. I find it amusing

that you said that. You don't think Obama plays politics too?

It's just different when she does it I guess.

[DiamondJay]

126. its the media

they hate seeing a women who isn't insanely hot and doesn't care about anything. from a policy standpoint, i like her, but me personally would die before dating a woman like her

[pnwmom]

129. And, if you're really that kind of guy, a woman like her would probably

rather not date you either. So that works out well.

But I'm glad you can separate her policy positions from whether you'd want to date her or not -- unlike all the idiots who picked Bush because he'd be the better guy to have a beer with.

[BlackVelvet04]

130. It's just too sad....

to see all of the excuses about why one just can't vote for Hillary. Like these voters never held their nose and voted for a male that was much less than what they considered a good choice.

Lots of what people hate Hillary for is the manufactured product of 10 years and millions of dollars of right wing propaganda.

I'm always amazed at how often on the Apprentice the women get their asses kicked by the men....not because they aren't as smart or smarter but they refuse to band together.

[TheWraith]

132. Nonsense and horsecrap.

Elanor Roosevelt wasn't both smart and warm? How about Elizabeth Edwards? Or Michelle Obama? Are you suggesting that all of these women drew as much fire as Hillary Clinton has?

Or is there maybe a reason why Hillary gets disliked? I hate to break it to you, but Hillary is perceived as being not warm and feeling because she's not warm and feeling. She suffers both from comparison to her husband, whose charisma is undeniable no matter how you feel about him, as well as to the other candidates.

And the fact that you're basically saying "if you don't support her you're a sexist" doesn't help her case. Sure, some people here dislike her for silly reasons. Others because she supported the war. Yet more, like me, have been grossly displeased by her campaign tactics. But to dismiss all criticism as solely due to sexism is dishonest and disgusting. Personally, I'd expected better out of you, since I've known you in the past to be quite reasonable and level-headed on many issues.

[pnwmom]

171. Are you kidding? Eleanor Roosevelt was despised by many, in much the

same way as Hillary (and even Chelsea).

And you're comparing HRC to Elizabeth and Michelle? Get real. Hillary followed Nancy Reagan, the First Lady who sat at her husband's feet and gazed adoringly. Hillary was the first First Lady to want to have a real career of her own. She paved the way for other candidates' wives to have their own ambitions. They can thank Hillary for making their path easier by taking so much of the brunt on her shoulders.

[midnight]

133. I'm thinking of giving Hilliary my vote. My mother is outraged over

her aipac involvement. Can anyone give me information about this organization and what you think? Please no bashing. Just the facts.

[Andromeda]

266. You won't get objective analysis

about AIPAC at DU. Use google and do some independent research.

[theHandpuppet]

135. Great post. Thanks!

It's a damn shame that even here too many folks fail to grasp the depth of the misogyny in this society and how that fuels al the Hillaryphobia.

[libbygurl]

219. I think many women themselves have internalised the misogyny as okay, too...

...so you see sexist comments not being criticised as they should be in this day and age.

[rhett o rick]

136. I am disappointed with this post. I would gladly support Sen Clinton if she was more progressive.

It has nothing to do with gender. I will support her if she is our candidate but will never, ever forgive her vote to give George W. Bush the power to preemptively invade Iraq. The Democrats that gave their support to this fascist dictator let us down. They were supposed to represent us and save us from the craziness of the fascist Bush/Cheney regime. It has nothing to do with gender.

My rule of thumb since 2000, "If G.W.Bush is in favor, vote no." Very simple.

[pnwmom]

161. This isn't about people who rationally disagree with her positions.

This is about the misogynists on DU who -- rather than limiting themselves to criticism of her positions or her actions -- make fun of her pantsuits, her voice, any display of positive emotion, and who obviously adhere to the old gender stereotypes. To wit: a "real woman" is driven by emotion, not intellect. Therefore, according to the old stereotypes, any smart ambitious woman must be lacking in "normal" "womanly" feeling. These people can't imagine that she's the nice person she appears to be -- no, she's cold, calculating, and a phony.

I'm NOT accusing you of being a misogynist, or people who -- like you -- happen to have good reasons for supporting other candidates. But I'm surprised to see that you haven't noticed the misogyny all over DU. Just yesterday, DU abounded in vicious comments after she shed a tear when an old mentor introduced her -- and shed his own tears -- talking about how proud he had been to see how much she had accomplished in her life.

[rhett o rick]

214. Ok, I didn't understand that from the post. My mistake. And yes I see all kinds of hate spewing in

here. I generally stay away from GDP. A lot of the hate is being initiated by right wing trolls, i have caught a few doing it. But the reactions and re-reactions are not appropriate of Democrats. GDP is shameful. I think the energy here is indicative of eight years of frustration. And I hope the energy will carry thru the general.

And further more, the best beer in the world is in the Pacific Northwest.

[pnwmom]

238. Thank you, rhett o rick.

I like a lot of things about the Pacific Northwest, but unfortunately beer contains gluten, which doesn't like me -- so I'll have to take your word on that.

How do you catch trolls, by the way? I've suspected it around here, but how do you ever know?

FYI, I'm pretty neutral on the race now. One thing I dislike about WA state is the caucus system -- since I like both candidates and I hate the caucuses, I'm going to let the rest of you decide. May the best person win -- and by that I mean, whoever is going to have the best chance in November.

[rhett o rick]

275. The caucus system is very un democratic both big D and little d.

As far as catching trolls, i will give you an example: One particular poster who will remain nameless (starts with neu and ends with tron) has a habit of jumping into threads and responding to the first or second responder. His (i am assuming it's a he because i am prejudiced and assume all asshats are hims) posts many times have nothing to do with the post he is responding to but a editorial of his own. A very clever way to get your post into a popular thread w/o actually discussing the topic. If you search by his name you will find he always posts the same basic things. No issues but only divisive posts. Meaning no bias, everyone of these I have run into has supported Clinton.

On a more fun note, i have traveled some in Europe and drank a lot of beer (only for research you understand)and firmly believe that the Pacific Northwest, Seattle and Portland areas have the best beers. And pretty good wines too. My daughter would add coffee to the list but I can drink any old coffee and be just as happy.

[Raine]

137. You're wrong if you think that's why

some of us aren't voting for her. If it makes you feel better to believe that go ahead, but if she gets the nomination her staff needs to look further than that. If they don't they will drag the whole Democratic party down to a defeat that will take decades to recover from. :-(

[pnwmom]

172. Some of us have good reasons for supporting other candidates.

I myself am neutral -- I like both Obama and Clinton, and I liked Edwards very much too.

But there has been an astounding amount of misogyny voiced on DU, in connection with HRC's candidacy. These are the people who -- rather than criticizing her policies -- make their attacks intensely personal. These are the witch hunters, in my view.

[porkrind]

142. oh please. SHE VOTED FOR THE WAR !

'nuff said.

[stillrockin]

147. This is a load of misleading crap. She VOTED FOR THE WAR!

[BrightKnight]

155. "Bush disowns Clinton peace proposals for Middle East"

"...the Bush administration disowned months of dogged effort by President Bill Clinton to deliver a peace deal in the Middle East."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,436199,00.html

---

There was a huge difference between the Bush and Clinton administration foreign policy agendas.

[pnwmom]

166. The OP has nothing to do with the war, or with people

who simply disagree strongly with her positions.

This is about the Hillary-hate that developed long ago, when she first began as First Lady. And it is about the misogyny that has been abounding recently on these boards.

I'm neutral with regard to the Obama-Hillary race. But I'm not neutral with respect to woman- hating. And the latest example was a day ago, when she was sliced and diced here on DU for tearing up when her former boss introduced her with such emotion that he shed his own tears.

[MilesColtrane]

150. Surely there's some irrational hatred out there for Hillary because she's female...

...but it's not like it's pervasive in the Democratic electorate.

She is, after all, the frontrunner, and she has been since she started campaigning for president.

[pnwmom]

160. You're right, it isn't pervasive in the Democratic electorate.

But the odd and disappointing thing to me is that it's as common as it is here, on a progressive board.

[MilesColtrane]

210. I chalk it up to the effect that those who have the strongest feelings (including negative ones)...

...tend to bark the loudest.

Not too many people will go out of their way to carpet bomb a discussion board with posts stating, "I am ambivalent about Subject X!".

That and the false perception of internet anonymity appeals to people's dark sides when expressing themselves.

For every misogynistic post by one person, there are a thousand reading it, rolling their eyes, going "Ugh", and thinking that a reply to such garbage isn't worth it because life's too short to engage with psychic vampires.

[pnwmom]

251. I hope you're right. But I've been afraid of the thousand others

who might read the sexist crap and say, yeah, damn right!

[emilyg]

151. K&R

[bhikkhu]

153. Because people don't want her to be president?

I am sorry if I don't see the point...how privileged can a person be and still cry out for pity?

The office of president is a very rare opportunity, even to the highly qualified and incredibly intelligent. In broad scope, invoking perfect fairness there are three hundred million who could be president if only the road were not so tightly guarded...perhaps on election day all but one of us should have a good cry at home at the injustice of the world.

[pnwmom]

159. No, many people resented her from her first days as First Lady.

She wasn't enough like Nancy Reagan. She wasn't adoring enough and she had her own ambitions. And she made fun of baking cookies.

You don't think it's sexist to make fun of her pantsuits? Or to call her voice shrill? Or to call her "calculating" instead of intelligent and rational?

The Hillary-hate started a long time ago, and it had nothing to do with her current run for President. It's what happens to many uppity women.

I'm not surprised when freepers do it, but it's been disappointing to see so much of it here. I'm not talking about people who criticize her with facts or who support another candidate. I'm talking about people whose hate is clearly based on an emotional reaction to her "inappropriateness" as a woman.

[bhikkhu]

276. Agreed about the excess of negativity here, on both sides.

I didn't follow politics or watch tv back in the early nineties so the comparison of her to Nancy Reagan is something I had never thought of. Hillary is certainly a different person.

I suppose it is all too easy for a male to say that calm assertiveness and self-confidence are primary elements of an admirable political character, when a woman displaying those elements may be simply ignored or considered an oddity.

[cooolandrew]

154. There is mysogny by right wingers but I rarely see any on our side. Not against her gender at all.

I am very uncomfortable with her links to murdoch the DLC and bush. Never was her gender an issue for me I initailly supported her.

[pnwmom]

156. It's common on DU.

How could you have missed all the sexist comments about her tears yesterday? Many DUers are viewing her through the prism of old gender stereotypes. She's smart and ambitious -- therefore she must be cold and calculating. If she appears to show any normal human warmth, then it's all an act -- she's calculating, she's a phony.

She's a witch.

[FirstLight]

162. I understand the reference to witchhunting

I too know how it feels to be seen as "wrong" for attempting to move upwards and onwards...

I voted for Edwards today, but am leaning towards Hillary
because
I know, I know, The corporate evil blah blah blah... BUT

I feel more of a conection with her, I have met Bill and think she has to be an amazingly strong woman to have stayed with this man for his wandering... but he was incredible too. I like his politics, and think that hers and his are similar and linked, because you can't be married for that long and not have some of the same beliefs - which isn't all that bad, because they do believe in fighting for regular people, I honestly believe that.. more and more as I see her flex her WOMAN POWER
which is long overdue IMO

We need the feminine to claim her strength
we DO need a village Hillary
can you help us create it?

I am still siting the fence, me and my 3 kids living in poverty in America
we have food and shelter, but no hope for freedom the way most people experience it
I can't go to the store and get the soap I want
...I have to ask my mother to shop for me and bring me what she can, because I am too poor to buy my kids bubble bath, or eggs and milk for that matter...(and YES I WORK)

I NEED a President who "gets it"

And I know I will vote Dem in the Generals
I hope Hillary can work with Edwards to make some real shifts in our world, our lives, our country

I posted a similar reply on another Hillary hread, and I guess I am hoping to find some comfort
Since John left I have been very desolate
wondering what will play out in our future and if bush has just taken us too far to ever return to a true democracy, because the facism alarm is going strong ...

can Hillary do more to change this tide BECAUSE she is a woman? I may be inclined to agree

[pnwmom]

168. Welcome to DU, Journalgrrl!

I also liked John Edwards very much, and I believe his commitment was very real. I especially liked his health care plan. (And, as you know, medical care is a threat to the financial solvency of most Americans.)

I think any of our candidates will be immeasurably better than the Republican, whoever HE is. It's time to concentrate on lifting up the people on the bottom, rather than cutting taxes and seeing what will trickle down on them.

In the meantime, I'm sending you positive thoughts -- I hope your situation improves soon. My sister went through a period after her divorce when she needed a lot of family help. Please take whatever help is offered you and don't feel bad about it. Those who love you will want to do whatever they can!

[Vektor]

194. Welcome to you, Journalgrrl!

Here's a hug for your amazing strength and perseverance.

:hug:

I want things to get better for working moms, kids, and all Americans too. I know you had your heart set on Edwards, and I'm sorry about how crushing this situation must feel right now.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you, a Democratic congress and White House in 2008, and better days ahead for you and your children.

[El Pinko]

167. I definitely think misogyny plays a role in some of the unfair/superficial slams against her

...but I don't think the people slamming her are really aware of their own internalized misogyny.

But how else to explain the obsession with her "insincere expressions/show of tears" her "vocal register", her "botox face", her "thighs". Since when have democrats railed against other democrats on this kind of superficial nonsense?


Oh and then, according to the critics every choice she makes is automatically careerist and cynical. She couldn't have stayed with Bill because she loved him or wanted to keep her family together - it was all about her career. She couldn't have run for senate in NY because that's where she thought she could do most good as a public servant - she wanted to be president - and why does she want to be president? To help her country? Of course not, it's because she wants to be the empress of the universe, a power-mad ice queen.

If they were complaining about her IWR vote, I could understand it, but the superficial seems to dominate. And no matter what she does, they automatically ascribe negative motives to her.


I voted for Obama, and I think the attacks on Hillary are BS. If she wins, more power to her.

[pnwmom]

282. El Pinko, you sum up my feelings very well.

I'm neutral on Obama vs. HRC, but the vicious attacks on her have been really bothering me. And you're right, we don't treat any of the other Democratic candidates like this, or pretend that they're "as bad as Bush." It's scary to think that the reason for the special treatment HRC gets is because she's a strong woman, but that's the conclusion I've drawn.

[cgrindley]

169. What? winning Super Tuesday?

That's a damn dumb thing to say.

I like Hillary. I'd be happy with her as president, but she can be fairly stupid once in a while, lacking her husband's political savvy. Using a maiden name as first lady offended a great many people--people did see it as outright disrespect to her husband's work--and her cracks about baking and then that whole "Stand by your man" scandal made her look pretty shitty to a huge number of fairly average Americans. But these are problems she manufactured. Those things actually were her fault. She fucked up.

I'm not saying that these issues really were offensive--I don't give a shit what name a woman uses. It's her business, but if you're the wife of the fucking president, you should be smart enough to realize that going by your maiden name is going to offend a lot of people.

The obvious response is to not give a shit. Who the fuck cares who a woman offends by going by her maiden name? If someone's offended, fuck em. A woman has the right to call herself whatever she wants.

The problem is, Hillary did care. She deliberately decided to give a shit what a huge number of ignorant, uneducated and stupid Americans thought about her. And since she did care, she should have known better in the first place. Those were avoidable issues, and the opinion of a bunch of misogynists apparently was prized by Hillary.

And about the tears. Yes. Gross. Yuck. Grow up. Politicians, especially those running for the highest office in the land shouldn't fucking well blub. It's stupid. You think Putin is going to respect a person who blubs? Children cry. Adults keep it tucked in. People who cry in public are wimps.

[robbedvoter]

174. And it's posts/attitudes like these that brought women to the polls

in such large numbers - and will continue to do so. My kid knows this too now.
For every snide remark about the so-called tears, 10 women went to the polls that may have otherwise stayed home.

[cgrindley]

176. I just defended her rights... perhaps you didn't understand

well, I also criticized the tears. Good thing, too. Crying in public is weak and stupid. I'm not being snide, I'm being directly and aggressively critical of a foolish and juvenile act. Children cry. Strong people do not.

[robbedvoter]

178. Your "defense" was offensive to me. Patronizing - I don't take well to it.

[cgrindley]

180. Offended? So what. Patronizing? Double so what.

Hillary, as a woman and a person, has a right to call herself or say whatever she wants. Obviously, in this backwards country, a lot of misogynistic idiots are going to get all huffy about her words and actions.

It's up to her, though, how she responds. Her error is that since she values the opinions of these wretched morons, then she really should have avoided offending them in the first place. It's her own fault.

It's called politics. But you knew this. And you know how it works. So your claim of being offended and being patronized rings a little hollow.

[Vektor]

188. Adamantly disagree. Strong people cry without apology, any time they feel like it.

"This is me, this is how I feel right now, like it or not." There is an amazing amount of strength and maturity in being able to express one's self freely, and without hesitation.

"Weak" people hide their emotions because they care too much about what other people will think of them, and are too insecure to unapologetically let the world know where they are coming from. "Weak" or insecure people were likely told by some authoritarian parent or other abusive person that crying was weak and never found the strength to recover from that bullshit lie they were told.

Crying is a basic human emotional response that EVERYONE has to express sometimes.

The bold and the strong will do so as needed, and not give a fuck who is watching.

The weak will see it as "foolish and juvenile" when in reality, it's foolish and juvenile to criticize someone for being human, and not afraid to show it.

The weak will mock others in order to feel superior.


By your definition and reasoning, the following are "weak, foolish, and juvenile "children":











I wonder how "weak" you would look if placed in certain situations. Whatever the case, I am going to pray you were being facetious when you made that utterly ridiculous and inaccurate statement.

[cgrindley]

203. That's just dumb

Soldiers are not world leaders. The parents of soldiers are not world leaders. We're talking about the attributes required for a president.

and yes, blubbing is a uniquely American thing. I haven't cried at anyone's death. Not even close friends or family. I have laughed however.

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libbygurl]

211. Amen. Just forget these sociopathic comments. nt

[pnwmom]

258. You haven't cried at anyone's death, but you have laughed.

Okay. . . .

[Vektor]

268. Careful...

I got a post deleted for pointing out the irony of how ridiculous it was to call someone else a psycho while bragging about crying at loved one's funerals.

:shrug:

[cgrindley]

271. It's entirely appropriate to tell stories and laugh

in your memory of a loved one at their wake. Crying you keep to yourself. Laughter and reminiscences of good times? That's obviously allowed.

[pnwmom]

277. Crying is also allowed at a wake. The no-crying rule doesn't exist

except in your imagination.

[cgrindley]

278. Course it does

it's in bad taste and it makes one appear weak.

[pnwmom]

281. Crying at a wake is "in bad taste and it makes one appear weak."

Being afraid of appearing weak is a major sign of weakness.

Just so you know.

[pnwmom]

224. Have you ever actually seen her cry in public? NO. Because she hasn't.

She has appeared moved. A tear has welled up in her eye. Her voice has cracked.

Strong people aren't afraid of positive, caring emotions. That's the part you don't get. You probably think it's just fine to show ANGER, don't you? Just not positive, caring feelings.

[Andromeda]

267. Crying is a normal expression

of human emotion. That's what separates us from the animals. Strong people cry and own their emotions unlike people who repress their feelings.

It isn't because of strength that some people don't cry and it isn't weakness that some people do.

[cgrindley]

272. no... crying in public if you're world leader is a sign of weakness (nt)

[Vektor]

190. Agreed.

And while you and I have squabbled in the past over disagreements over our opinions of John Kerry, I could not agree with you more here.

There is not one ounce of shame in being human, or shedding tears, and anytime I hear some authoritarian asshole who was likely beaten one too many times by his redneck Daddy for being a "wuss", grow up to repeat that horse shit, I too am inclined to go to the polls and write in the most unabashedly weepy basket case of a hysterical crying woman I can find just to say to those misogynist meat-head pricks, "Here's something for you to cry about."

You are so right. Sexist attacks from big tough men against women who cry will send more females running full speed ahead to the polls than anything under the sun.

:hi:

[cgrindley]

191. So you think Putin would respect that?

or Kim or Iran's Revolutionary Guard or those war lords in Afghanistan? It's a hard, sexist world. It's occupied by people who don't give a shit about the advances made by women in the last 1000 years, let alone the last 50 years. And as president, that's who she'll be dealing with. If she wants to succeed, she'll have to take a page out of Condi's books. That's how she'll have to be. Cold and hard.

[Vektor]

199. I don't much give a shit who would "respect that."

There is NOTHING admirable about being "cold and hard" and people who come across like that are usually fake and hiding a boatload of inner self loathing. They are also grossly ineffective because they are so crippled by their fear of letting an ounce of humanity leak out that they become totally useless, paralyzed, and ineffective.

Who on earth told you that a person cannot be strong and express emotion as well? What makes you think strong people don't cry? I'd wager to say the strongest among us are those with the greatest capacity to feel.

There is a tremendous amount of strength in letting the word know how you feel, and not being afraid to do so. An
emotional person is likely a person who GIVES A SHIT, and therefore can be very effective in bringing about change.

"Cold, hard" people are too busy posturing to care to do a damn thing other than stand around looking wooden, spewing empty slogans to try to make themselves look tough.

Yes, it is a hard sexist world. That's why women have to STOP denying who they are, stop pretending to feel, stop denying their humanity and emotions, and start verbalizing loud and clear that they ARE PISSED OFF and ARE NOT going to take it anymore.

Edited to add: I have no doubt that Hillary could play the heavy if needed. I am certain if she were meeting with world leaders, she would be more than able to adopt an assertive stance. Shedding a few tears during emotional times on the campaign trail HARDLY means she cannot lead. If you disagree with her politics, so be it, but it is inaccurate to say that a person who occasionally cries when upset cannot effectively do their job, and be assertive when the need arises.

[cgrindley]

202. You're not a psychopath, are you? Because most world leaders are

and if you want to deal with a psychopath, you'd better learn quickly how to be cold and hard. It doesn't matter if you want to be all touchy feelie about it, because on the world stage, it's deviants and mental aberrants who rule the roost. And the majority of them are anything but useless, paralyzed or ineffective. No. They have destroyed nations, ruined millions of people's lives and made their countries into hellholes. To deal with the future Mugabes or Milosvics or Marcoses or Duvaliers, you have to take a page out of their book and behave formally and without emotion in public life.

[Vektor]

204. I'm sorry, but that's absurd.

I'm hardly a psychopath, and while many "leaders" may be, that hardly means American leadership should continue to perpetuate that trend.

Any longer, that is.

If you sincerely believe that American presidents should stoop to the level of those who "have destroyed nations, ruined millions of people's lives and made their countries into hellholes" then you might well be the psycho, I'm sorry to say.

Bush was all of the above. Useless, murderous, ineffective, AND psychopathic, all wrapped up in the neat little cold hard package you seem to admire so. Same with Condi. If you think that THAT is an effective way to lead which Hillary or any other contender should emulate, then you are more nuts than I know what to do with.

News flash: destroying nations and ruining lives is not "being effective," Any brain dead simian chimp can do that. Actually caring enough to TRULY be effective and bring about POSITIVE change is what our leaders should strive for, while being an unfeeling murderous prick is hardly a lofty goal to aim for, though it sounds like you are saying you admire that, or at least encourage it in our next president, as if 8 years of that wasn't enough.

I'll tell you what. We can go back and forth here until we are blue in the face, and you will never convince me that being like Kim Jong Il or Condi Rice is "effective leadership." If you truly believe that being a murderous, goose-stepping psychopath is a recommended method of leadership, then you go ahead and hold onto that sad and twisted notion.

I hope it works out for you.

[pnwmom]

254. So now we are reduced to arguing that HRC shouldn't have to be a psychopath!

What strange conversations are occurring these days . . .

:shrug:

[Vektor]

256. It's bizarre, isn't it?

What's even stranger is that this sort of dangerous rhetoric is allowed to stand here.

Encouraging psychopathy/sociopathy in Democratic presidential candidates is hardly the message we should be touting on this board.

[cgrindley]

274. I am NOT encouraging sociopathy in our presidential candidates

I am pointing out that our presidents typically have to deal with a large number of psychopaths (Hare type compensated psychopaths) and that showing emotional weakness around such people is probably a bad idea.

[cgrindley]

269. I'm not saying a president should be, but that they have to deal with them (nt)

[pnwmom]

253. What a laugh. No, acting like another psychopath will NOT help you

to deal with one.

A person who is emotionally healthy will be much more successful in handling interactions with all other people, especially with people who are emotionally disordered.

[FirstLight]

216. BRAVO! the entire paradigm of what is "strong"

has to change if we are to change the way this world works.
i.e. Peace instead of war
compassion instead of hatred
inclusion instead of division


sounds a little "Age of Aquarius" ? and Touchy feely?

but to HELL with those who think it is weak
some of the STRONGEST moments in a woman's life are those when she is crying or screaming
...emotion allows us to break through barriers and create change in our relationships and our lives
It is a vital piece of our humanness

just my .02

[Vektor]

241. And a perfectly accurate .02 to boot.

To hell with the "cold hard psycho" bull crap.

That may have worked for Ted Bundy, but for our leaders, I say HELL NO to that.

[pnwmom]

252. Why? Nobody expected Bill to be cold and hard.

Nobody expected George never to shed a tear.

Nobody expects Obama to be cold and hard.

Why is it that a woman needs to be cold and hard? And yet is also damned if she is cold and hard?

[cgrindley]

270. Are we talking about the same Bill Clinton?

The Paula Jones story was true you know. Bill--although a lovable and wonderful figure and a great president--is not what you'd call normal by any stretch of the imagination.

[pnwmom]

283. The Paula Jones story was a pile of garbage. n/t

[cgrindley]

299. No it wasn't

it's unsavory, but true.

[pnwmom]

313. You were in the room with them right? So you know it was true. n /t

[cgrindley]

319. Of course he dropped trou... it's one of the reasons why everyone loves the big dog

woot!

[pnwmom]

322. Speak for yourself. n/t

[pnwmom]

223. I think your post was the dumb one.

You don't see your own misogyny. You say she "fucked up" by wanting to use a maiden name as a middle name! And she looked "pretty shitty" because she stood by her man. And that those things were her fault.

Then you claim that she shouldn't "give a shit."

No matter what she does, she's damned in your eyes.

You even damn her for having a normal, human reaction the day before. "Gross. Yuck. Grow up." "People . . . shouldn't fucking well blub." What kind of person are you? She has never blubbed. In the first case, her voice cracked a little and reporters thought her eyes glistened. In the second, she shed a tear. And if she hadn't shed a tear in the second case, then she would have been almost inhuman. Her boss of thirty-five years past was giving a very moving tribute about the girl he remembered, and how proud he was of what she had accomplished -- and he was shedding his own tears while her spoke about her. Any normal human being would be touched by that.

[cgrindley]

273. I think you should work on your reading comprehension

I defended her choice to call herself whatever she wants. I pointed out, however, that when she was castigated for her choices, she should have put her detractors in their place instead of caving. Therefore, I argued, that since she caved in to misogynistic criticism, she should have had the foresight to avoid the entire issue. That's not me being misogynistic, that's me pointing out the obvious.

PS crying really is gross. cry in private where no one can see you.

[pnwmom]

284. "Crying really is gross." You really are hung up on this crying issue.

Maybe you were punished for it as a child.

I hope you're not passing this sad and unhealthy lesson on to any children of your own.

[New Dawn]

175. No, she is just another right-wing politician who happens to be female

Just like Margaret Thatcher, Angela Merkel, etc.

[Norrin Radd]

177. The problem isn't witches or warlocks--

it's trolls.

[robbedvoter]

179. I wish I could say all offensive statements came from trolls - but some bona fide

DU-ers were on the front lines of those.
I am bitterly disappointed - and more than even convinced we need to break that glass ceiling - to change these attitudes, if even the so called "progressive" community reeks with them. It's all very disheartening to me. I expect it from Tweety, not from DU.

[libbygurl]

198. Precisely. Even on so-called 'progressive' sites like DU, blatantly sexist comments get a pass...

...for the most part. Reflects the media's bias, since BO has not had the same depth of scrutiny that HRC has had, either.

[pnwmom]

225. I don't think so. I think misogyny exists even among progressives.

I've known some in my own life, unfortunately. They've been completely oblivious to it, however.

[Ino]

183. There's only one thing as bad...

There's only one thing as bad as refusing to vote for Clinton only because she's a woman... and that's voting for her only because she's a woman.

[pnwmom]

257. This isn't about voting for or against her.

It's about the misogyny that underlies much of the Hillary-hate, the very vicious personal attacks on her that Dems haven't been indulging in against the male Dem candidates.

I'm neutral with regard to Obama vs. Clinton, but I'm not neutral with regard to the sexist garbage I've been reading on DU.

[rucognizant]

187. But then there is this............

I have been unable to prove or disprove this, I leave that up to you..........
BUT it worries me. There was that delightful article posted re: small Farmers in Mass growing their own wheat & grinding it, on DU last week. It did NOT cause arguement on the board, everyone thought it was a good idea.

I have been researching GM foods since 1996,97, when I became aware through my "tastebuds" that something was very wrong with our food! ( that was in the middle of Bill's tenure as President!)
Did you know that Finland, & the Norway are making a frozen seed bank to protect natural seeds against contamination from Monsanto's follies?

Do you know that approx 90% of the Mexican corn crop is polluted by GM seed? ( Why is it that we have so many "illegal immigrants" coming here, from there in order to survive?) Do you know that Monsanto bought up 1/3 of the seed producing companies, that supply the northeast with seed packets, 3 years ago? Yes that's Burpee, Hart.........

Johnnie's seeds & Fedco here in Maine have scrambled to remove them from their stock, and there is a healthy heirloom seed bank program going on in the state.
Also here in Maine Oakhurst Dairies LOST their legal battle with Monsanto, ( that was on Bill's watch as well). They are forbidden to label their product "bovine growth hormone free". But we all know it is free of them by word of mouth and so, buy their product.
When a country that professes to govern by the "rule of law" uses it's laws AGAINST the people it is time for a CHANGE!

I stopped eating beef several years ago after the mad cow revelation. Bison is more expensive but Buffalo WILL NOT eat prepared food, they eat grass, it's leaner, and healthier as well. ( And I am on a below the poverty level SS income)
Now, please read this open letter from Carolyn to Hillary and draw your own conclusions. It's NOT about woman's lib at all. That's shallow by comparison!


http://carolynbaker.net/site/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=310&pop=1&page=0


By polling logic, I should be your supporter - Democrat, older woman,
white, liberal. I was even in a dorm with you in college. I have
pulled for you for years. But something this past summer
fundamentally changed my responsibility to my children and
grandchildren. In the time I have left in my life to protect them and
others, I need to speak out.

Farmers in Europe, Asia, Africa, Indonesia,South America, Central
America and here, have protested Monsanto and genetic engineering for
years.

What does this have to do with you?

You have connections to Monsanto through the Rose Law Firm where you
worked and through Bill who hired Monsanto people for central food-
related roles. Your Orwellian-named "Rural Americans for Hillary" was
planned withTroutman Sanders, Monsanto's lobbyists.

Genetic engineering and industrialized food and animal production all
come together at the Rose Law Firm, which represents the world's
largest GE corporation (Monsanto), GE's most controversial project
(DP&L's - now Monsanto's - terminator genes), the world's largest
meat producer (Tyson), the world's largest retailer and a dominant
food retailer (Walmart).

[pnwmom]

286. I know that many people have good reasons to disagree with Clinton

on various issues, and to support other candidates. That isn't what the OP is about.

The OP is about the misogyny that is at the root of the way some Hillary-haters attack her. This had been on display the previous day, with a deluge of attacks after she showed a touch of emotion when her former boss paid tribute to her (and he shed a few tears in the process.) What other Democratic candidates have been attacked in such personal ways, with such vitriol, by progressives on DU?

[MadHound]

189. Or it could simply mean that a lot of people simply don't like Hillary based on her positions

I'm sure that your opinion considering misogyny is applicable to conservative spectrum of the voting public, but in the primaries, where leftists and Dems are primarily involved, I think that it is a minor thing.

Rather, it is her stance on the war, and her impression of a corporately controlled candidate, part of the old Democratic machine politics, that is hurting her.

I think that you are needlessly and maliciously slamming your fellow Democrats and leftists.

[pnwmom]

327. I'm slamming every DUer who has ever ridiculed her for her CACKLE --

a word specifically applied to witches, by the way.

Or who has made fun of her for a "shrill" voice -- when most women have high pitched voices compared to men.

Or who made fun of her for having thick ankles (like they'd ever criticize a guy for that) or for wearing pantsuits (ditto).

Or who think she is so "cold" and "calculating" that any show of emotion must be "phony." (Men are the only ones who get to be ambitious without being criticized for it.)

And on and on and on.

I'm only slamming the ones who deserve it, but I'm sad to say there are more of them here than you want to acknowledge.

[libbygurl]

195. ( GO DONATE TO HILLARY'S CAMPAIGN! ) And some women are their own worst enemies.

So mistaken was I to think that women's liberation and the end of misogyny already happened in the 60s. Indeed, that battle has to be fought still to this day.

I love Hillary Clinton's strong, fighting spirit, her indomitable character to continue to work at what she values despite all the obstacles and unfair criticisms hurled at her. Just look at the overwhelming anti-Hillary bias in the media from all sides, and see how she's withstood that, and then some, to win in so many big states! Against the odds!

[sendero]

196. HRC....

... is enduring her punishment for being on the wrong side of the most pressing issue in the country, the Iraq war.

Her attempts at walking the center of this issue fool NOBODY, and it has hurt her a lot.

Had she taken a forceful "I will get us out of Iraq stand" and stuck to it, she'd have this nomination in the bag, and she'd have my support as well.

[pnwmom]

255. This isn't about HRC personally as much as it is about the persistence of misogyny.

HRC just happens to be a big current target, who is proving that we haven't moved as far as a nation as we think we have. The witch hunters are still out there and they're even here on DU.

[midnight armadillo]

197. yadda yadda yadda

Really, it's possible to not want Clinton to be president for a wide variety of reasons that have nothing to do with gender. Her politics and positions on issues, in particular.

[pnwmom]

259. So? I don't have a problem with people who criticize her based on the issues.

I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about the ones spewing sexist crap about her voice, her laugh, her tears, her cookies, her pantsuits, ad nauseum . . . .

[Pacifist Patriot]

200. I highly recommend Tavris' book "The Mismeasure of Woman." Seriously!

It could use a revision because it was first published in the early 90s, but I think the vast majority of her conclusions are spot on. Easy and fascinating book. EVERYONE, men and women, should read it and consider what she has to say. It's very enlightening (and I think liberating) for both genders.

[DWilliamsamh]

201. This is a ridiculous post filled with Straw men.

As it applies to Democrats, and certainly the folks her on DU, there is NO such majority "she's a witch I won't vote for her" sentiments. Of COURSE there are people in the Democratic party that will never vote for a woman and will use any excuse to justify their sexism. The same can be said of those who would "never" vote for Barack Obama. Those people are everywhere but are a minority of the general population. Only an idiot, or someone seeking to silence critics of their chosen candidate, would think there is more than a minority of Democrats who think that way.

BUT it IS possible to criticize Hillary and NOT be making a statement about her desirability as the Democratic nominee, without being a sexist or misogynist. You (and so many HRC supporters) are engaging in exactly the kind of demonetization of those opposed to you, as supporters if Israel engage in when they characterize all criticism, no matter how substantive, as conscious or unconscious anti-Semitic sentiment.

Those of us who did not like her IWR vote, (and failure to THIS day to say it was a mistake), her support of a flag burning amendment, her vote on Kyle/Lieberman, her willingness to go to war with Iran, her general triangulation and running to the right at the drop of a hat, will NOT shut up or be cowed by your spurious charges of sexism. Oh and deciding once she found herself in a fight that the DEAL she AGREED to re: Michigan and Florida, is suddenly a case of the DNC "disenfranchising minorities," doesn't give the rest of us warm fuzzies for her either.

All that being said - I will STILL vote for her if she is the Democratic nominee. Just don't expect me to shut up and genuflect because you call me a sexist.

[pnwmom]

227. Where did I say that a "majority" of DUers behave in this way?

Nowhere, because that's not what I believe. But there is a loud minority of DUers who engage in sexist attacks on her, and those are the people I was critiquing.

I have no problem with people criticizing her for her political positions or decisions. I do have a problem with people ridiculing her for her "tears," her "shrill" voice, her "cackle", her pantsuits, her cookies, etc.

And I am neutral with regard to the race between Clinton and Obama. The precipitating factor for the post yesterday was the deluge of misogynistic comments that had been heaped on her the day before, regarding the incident when she teared up after a boss of 35 years ago shed his own tears in paying tribute and saying how proud he was of her.

[The Wizard]

206. Self loathing Republican Roger Stone

famous for being part of Nixon's dirty tricks team, has formed a new 527 called Citizens United Not Timid, or C.U.N.T. It's an anti Hillary Clinton organization whose main purpose is to smear Hillary Clinton much in the same way the Swift Boat liars smeared John Kerry. It has been suggested that Stone's 527 is getting funding from the same sources as the Swift Boat Republicans.
Make sure to send this to all Republicans, especially Republican women.

http://www.citizensunitednottimid.org/

[pnwmom]

260. That is so disgusting I thought it had to be a joke. But it's not, is it?

How could they not offend millions of Republican women with that? Are they all Ann Coulter?

[mistertrickster]

207. Oh, PULLEEZ!

If Hillary hadn't married Bill Clinton, she'd be just another highly-paid corporate lawyer.

Nobody calls Pelosi a "witch" or Geraldine Ferraro or Kathleen Sebelieus or Barbara Boxer.

Billary had eight years to bring us better health-care, they had eight years to negotiate drug prices, eight years to stop off-shoring of American jobs. Instead they gave us NAFTA.

We can do better. The people who criticize Hillary are for the most part remarking on her ego-maniacal AMBITION, not her gender.

[pnwmom]

228. I see. This isn't about gender, you say, but HRC's ambition is ego-maniacal.

Yeah, sure.

:sarcasm:

[mistertrickster]

230. So was Bill's. But at least he did most of what he acheived himself. nt.

[pnwmom]

240. I rest my case. n/t

[kiteinthewind]

215. k & r nt

[cooolandrew]

217. It's a bit emotive using the 'w' word never to my knowledge seen that word used on here.

[pnwmom]

221. No, the Hillary-haters prefer the B* word, but that's usually

deleted eventually.

And I was being emotive on purpose. I was reacting, with anger, to the rampant hostility I saw around here the day before, when DU'ers were ripping her to shreds, once again, for displaying an appropriate emotion. Because she isn't allowed to, in their opinion, because she's not really human.

[robbedvoter]

233. It would be a step up in my book! (from the things I've seen)

I haven't seem Bush vilified this much on this board - the guy who steals elections, starts wars and tortures - in case you forgot.

[Mozcram]

218. Great Observations....

Her case fits the mold. As always, in cases like this, those who are most deeply at the effect of these patterns have the least awareness of it. Sometimes, we can clearly see the absurdity of their strangely powerful anger or distaste, and at times we see them grasping for justification, and at other times, we DON'T see it, often because we have been swept into the game ourselves!

Let's all re-commit ourselves to becoming more self-aware!

[pnwmom]

222. Thank you, Mozcram. And welcome to DU!

[robbedvoter]

237. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[skooooo]

231. brother

No exaggeration going on here.

[pnwmom]

249. That's what hyperbole is for: to make a point.

The roots of Hillary-hate shares the foundation that drove the witch hunters: a deep societal suspicion of strong women.

We can't overcome it until we recognize it.

[mistertrickster]

236. And everyone who opposes Obama is racist too, right?

A lot of people find Hillary shrill and brittle. Is that because she's a woman, and we are culturally-conditioned to want nurturing and comforting women?

Or is it that she really is shrill and brittle?

I lean towards the latter. If Hillary could just be a little more for the country and a little less for Hillary, I would support her.

As far as I can tell, my lack of support has nothing to do with her gender. I want to support her because of her gender. But I can't support her because of her policies.

[pnwmom]

239. No, and the majority of people who dislike HRC aren't sexist.

But there are a significant proportion of misogynists among the Hillary-haters, and they had been out in force on these boards the day before. Hillary had showed a normal human reaction when her former boss of 35 years ago paid her a lovely tribute and shed his own tears in describing how proud he was to see all that the girl he remembered had accomplished. And for that, many DUers were ripping her to shreds.

I believe you that your lack of support is related to her policies, not her gender. But if you spend much time at all in GDP, you must be aware of the vicious, gender based attacks that have been occuring.

And no, she isn't shrill and she certainly isn't brittle. She has a typical middle-aged woman's voice with a midwestern accent, and she's anything but brittle or she would have shattered into pieces long ago.

[AnnieBW]

280. Does Hillary Float?

How do you tell a witch? SHE FLOATS!!!

Seriously, this is a good posting. I'm sick of the sexism from the MSM and a lot of men about Hillary. She's smart, she's strong, and she can play with the big boys. I'm just not thrilled with some of her positions.

[pnwmom]

285. I'm afraid she does.

Otherwise, of course, she wouldn't live.

I agree. I'm not thrilled with some of her positions, but I'm sick of the sexist garbage, especially when it's coming from the MSM and from progressives. And sadly, I've even seen it parroted by a few women around here.

[Wombatzu]

288. what color is the sky in your world? (nm)

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

335. New Shooter! New Shooter, Coming Out!

http://streetplay.com.nyud.net:8090/cityplay/02-2000/images/craps.jpg

[pnwmom]

339. This time of year? Gray. How about yours? n/t

[Kitty Herder]

292. I always empathized with Hillary when she was picked on for being an uppity woman.

I was very angry with the misogynists like Limbaugh who slung their putrid, vile garbage at her. I was a teenage girl at the time, just forming my own consciousness of feminism. I thought, "Why can't a woman be respected for being intelligent, competent and powerful. Men are respected for those traits. Women are reviled for them."

I was proud of her for being elected as a Senator for New York, showing that she is a leader in her own right, not just the wife of a powerful man. And if she is elected President, I will be thrilled to see a woman finally fill the highest office in the land.

However, I did not vote for her. This nation is at an historic turning point and we need a Democrat who can take advantage of that to create real change and get us back on the road of progress and social justice. I don't think Hillary will use the current mood of the country to our best advantage. She's just too far to the right. I last straw for me was her vote in favor of the Kyl-Lieberman amendment. That, to me, showed that she hadn't learned from her mistake in voting for the Iraq war. So I vowed not to vote for her, now matter how much I want to see a woman president.

Edit: P.S. I'm not sure Obama's up to the challenge either. I guess I just went with the devil I don't know when I voted for him, hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised. Because I can't see Hillary surprising me.

[pnwmom]

321. Welcome to DU, Herdin_Cats!

I'm going to let the rest of you choose between her and Obama -- I'm neutral enough that I'm not going to put myself through caucus-hell this time around.

But I'm not neutral about the sexist garbage I've been seeing around here lately -- it's not just limited to conservatives like Limbaugh, unfortunately.

[leftofthedial]

309. this whole misogyny thing is absurd

and does nothing to make anyone support her

[pnwmom]

315. So you think it's fair for other Dems to ridicule her in sexist terms

rather than just criticizing her for actions or policies they disagree with?

I'm not trying to make anyone support her. I'm neutral with regard to her and Obama. But I am sick to death of the blatant misogyny I've been encountering on these boards.

[leftofthedial]

318. I must not see the same threads you do

what I see over and over and over and f-ing over is a post that criticizes Clinton based on her policies or her perceived political insincerity followed by a flood of posts screaming sexism.

[pnwmom]

320. What about all the posts raking her over the coals her just a few days ago

because she teared up when a boss of 35 years ago spoke a very moving tribute about how proud he was to see all she had accomplished -- shedding his own tears in the process?

Those posts are what prompted the OP, by the way.

Why is she the only candidate running on either side who's not allowed to have normal human feelings?

[leftofthedial]

323. don't know anything about any of those

I was otherwise engaged a few days ago for a few days

But I've seen dozens and dozens (And been the target of some) kneejerk, superficial, purely ad hominem accusations of sexism for no reason other than criticizing Clinton or even just not being sufficiently fawning.

[pnwmom]

326. Maybe you misunderstood the basis for those posts, just as you

misunderstood the basis of mine.

But think back on Hillary's treatment in the media, and even by many here on DU. Remember the ridicule about her "breakdown" in New Hampshire (when all that really happened was that her voice cracked a little), or, her "shrill" voice (when most women have higher-pitched voices than men), her "cackle" (a word specifically applied to hens and to WITCHES), her laugh? From the time she has entered national politics, she's endured cracks about her thick ankles, her pantsuits, her headbands. When do you ever see Democrats criticizing their own MALE candidates in these terms?

[leftofthedial]

332. meh.

I don't think there is any widespread conspiracy to demean her in specifically anti-female terms anymore than there has been an attempt to marginalize Obama for his African heritage. I did note (as is often the case here) attacks against Edwards specifically because he is a white male and against Kucinich because he is short, but even those were rare.

I think Clinton got overwhelmingly POSITIVE press for "crying" or whatever it was she did in NH. I certainly don't remember her being ridiculed for it (other than perhaps by RW hate radio types--although I never listen to them so I don't know if even they did). I do recall questions about the sincerity of her emotion--not in the context of the "emotional woman" stereotype, but rather because she is seen as a calculating politician who is extremely controlled and almost never spontaneous. That's not sexism, but rather a discussion of personal style and demeanor. The same comment could easily be made about male candidates--and frequently is.

I'll grant you, if a thread looks like obvious flamebait directed against either candidate or their supporters, I avoid it, so maybe there is more sexism than I know. Frankly, GD-P has been such a storm of shit flinging that "sniffing out" specific patterns of abuse has not been easy or on my personal agenda. If you could point me to specific examples of language like "cackle" I'd look at it. "Shrill" is not sexist. It was used consistently, for example, to characterize Howard Dean's style in 2004.

I've seen plenty of harsh, stupid, illogical and baseless attacks on both candidates here, but in my direct experience specifically sexist or racist comments have been exceedingly uncommon.

[pnwmom]

333. I didn't say there was a "widespread" or ANY kind of conspiracy.

Actually, I think most of the sexism, especially on DU, is completely UNCONSCIOUS. That doesn't make it less real. Actually, it adds to its power.

Clinton got a great deal of negative response here on DU for the incident in N.H. I'm neutral with respect to the final outcome -- maybe even leaning a bit toward Obama -- and when I viewed the NH video, it was clear to me that her emotion was genuine. But many DUers, including you, thought the emotion was phony. I think that's because many people have trouble viewing a woman as both smart and ambitious -- and human and real.

To call a woman "shrill" or to refer to her laugh as a "cackle" is sexist. The fact that these words might occasionally be used against a male doesn't change that. (If someone made fun of a black person's kinky hair, that would be racist, even though there are white people with kinky hair.)

A final thought -- most of the worst examples of sexism are deleted by the moderators before many people even read them, including references to her as a B*tch. But there have been numerous DUers criticizing her "cackle." That word, by the dictionary definition, refers to the sound made by a hen or by a WITCH. That was part of what prompted the OP. The rest was the reaction to her normal human reaction to her former boss's moving tribute.

[George_Bonanza]

312. And the Black man has had it so easy

[pnwmom]

316. Where do you see other DUers ridiculing Obama in racist terms,

or even getting personal with accusations at all? Show me the links where DUers make fun of Obama's appearance, or his laugh, or his voice or his accent or his clothes.

[Leo 9]

329. If only she were a good witch. You know, one with some charisma and likability.

[dailykoff]

331. But then she wouldn't need flying monkeys flogging fairy tales.

[pnwmom]

338. I think she is just as likable as her competitor. (He seemed a bit full of himself

when he said, "You're likable enough.")

She's not as charismatic, but that's a much rarer quality. And frankly, I like policy wonks and think we'd have been far better of with one of those (Gore, Kerry, HRC) than Bush over the last 8 years.