I liked Hillary until

[madmunchie]

I liked Hillary until about 2- 3 years ago the MSM started talking about how Hillary was the inevitable Democratic Nominee for POTUS in 2008. All of the political pundits were talking about this, so matter a fact, that I was astounded. Day in and Day out MSM touted HRC as the inevitable. They talked about this adnauseum. I used to wonder: where they were getting their information from? Why did everybody and their mother keep telling us that HRC was the next candidate of POTUS for the Democratic Party and that she would probably win the election????? To get us used to the idea? To sell us HRC the way they sold us the Iraq War? I mean HRC hadn’t even committed to running for the office yet. She never would say that she was going to run, but the pundits had her running and winning……

Then there was Bill. Bill became new best buds with George Sr. They palled around doing work for “humanity”. Not so bad on the surface right? They are past POTUS and they should be doing work for the human good, right? Where was Jimmy Carter in this paling around though? Why didn’t he make it a threesome? OR better yet why didn’t Bill pal around with Jimmy Carter, aren’t they both Democrats????? Why was Bill all of a sudden, sleeping with the enemy?

Then there was the state of our union. Our country was going to Hell in a handbag. We were deceived into a never-ending war, where billions of dollars would be spent for the war and billions of dollars would just all of a sudden disappear - totally unaccounted for. Our economy was shredded and then flushed down the toilet; some of our constitutional rights were being taken away. Our Democratic leader was Bill Clinton. Where was he? Where was his voice for us? Why was he so near totally silent about this? Oh sure, once in a while we heard a quip here and there from Bill, but NO WHERE near what we should have heard. AND most of his quips were generally pretty self-promoting.

Now lets go back to the MSM (Corporate owned and controlling Media – the thought police), Where has the news from Iraq been? All we hear now is that “2 more soldier killed in a roadside… and now for Brittany. The stock market took a plunge, The housing market has listed 50,000 foreclosures for the state of RI, The Feds are talking about dropping the interest rate…..The price at the pump…. the price of oil is over $90.00, the price of oil is under $90.00.

The vast majority of news has shifted from talking about the Iraq War to talking about the economy. Just a sign of the times????? Just happened?????? I don’t think so. What were the Clinton years fondly remembered for? Great economic strides, balanced budget, budget surplus, great economic growth… How convenient that the shift of the focus has been taken from Iraq….Hillary’s biggest blunder to the economy the Clinton’s most positive memory. Coincidence? The MSM who sold the Americans the Iraq War and pounded it in our heads -day and night- what a bad guy Sadam was, and how he had WMD was now telling us that Hillary was the inevitable Democratic Candidate for POTUS and would probably win.

If Iraq were still dominating the news, where would Hillary’s support be? If she were to be grilled about her vote in the proper way without all of the tiptoeing that has been done around the subject, how would her standing be right now? What if she were asked “if GWB took us into Iraq and the war handling wasn’t bungled; would she be for it then?” “What if GWB went into Iraq and actually succeeded finding Sadam right away, found some WMD, nothing too lethal, would she still say her vote was a mistake??” Isn’t the question or shouldn’t the question be about the concept of our right to force our ways and beliefs onto foreign third world countries? Isn’t that the bigger question? Isn’t that THE question? HRC always falls back on “if GWB didn’t screw things up so badly”, well HRC what if he didn’t? That is the question I want posed. That is the question that I want asked. Would she then feel vindicated about her vote and support it? Was going into Iraq AT ALL NECESSARY, according to her beliefs and ideology? Why were we (and her especially) so concerned with Sadam, when we had Bin Laden still running around?? Why was there so much focus on Sadam when we had troops in Afghanistan going after the (supposed) perpetrator of 9/11. Why did she go along with the song and dance that so many other prestigious Democrats saw thru? She had access to Intelligence that others didn’t see? O.K. Hillary, so you believed Bush and you believed major flawed Intelligence and you knew that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 and that we were in Afghanistan and that we didn’t have an infinite number of troops and forces to conduct a war on two fronts…you did know that now didn’t you? I knew that Bush was a fuck up, why didn’t you? YOU KNEW that Rums field, Wolfowitz, Cheny all wanted to go back into Iraq since 93’, to get Sadam, after all you were in the WH and knew exactly what was going on, yet you “fell” for the BS of GWB? I don’t believe that, sorry.

If Iraq was still dominating the news and the proper questions were being asked to HRC, she wouldn’t be anywhere near the support that she has now. The news dominating the airwaves on the economy is the one of the most important factors for her success. The news cycle being minimized on Iraq is also critical for her success. Coincidence? Or are the stars aligning…….

Then of course we cannot forget the3 stooges, McCain, (Moe), Romney (Larry) and Huckabee (Curly). If there aren’t a more sorry ass bunch of candidates, please, please tell me? These 3 jokers will also help ensure a Democratic Candidate succeeds to the WH. McCain said the stupidest thing when he admitted not really knowing much about the economy and just basically is running on Bush’s record for National Security. Romney, has a different stump speech with different promises to each state and has shed his skin a few too many times to be believed. Well, Huckabee, he is entertaining now isn’t he?

I don’t like being told who to support. I don’t like MSM trying to control the conversation in such an overt way. I don’t like our public figures sleeping with the enemy to get back into the WH. I don’t like “the powers that be” running our country.

Back in the 90’s and up until 2005’ or so, I really liked and admired HRC. What I have seen though, in the few years has been very troubling and disheartening. I am disappointed to be sure. The Clintons acting so in sync with the Bush’s and the MSM has convinced me that my choice at the polls isn’t really about choice but about “appearances”. The appearance that we still have a Democracy intact and that our votes really do mean ….something….even if just a little bit.

Yes, if HRC is the candidate for the Democratic Nomination, I’ll be the good doobee and vote for her. Even though it won’t mean a thing. Because if we don’t vote, if we choose to sit home we will be criticized to. Even though I don’t believe my vote really means anything and that it may be just a robotic motion helping some believe that we live in a Democratic Society.

I am watching Obama though, he is the dark horse that entered into this race and and brought with him a bright light that is shining thru all of the murk and the fog of corporate control and he is getting attention that nobody really thought he could. If he ends up as our nominee, I will feel a little bit better about our votes and the State of our Nation.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. yet an article by a non partisan group just revealed that the media is playing nice w, obama

against hrc.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

16. I agree that the media are hard on Clinton but at the same time

I'm just happy that FINALLY a Democrat is getting the kind of positive, relatively uncritical coverage that Republicans routinely get. Admittedly, I'm even happier that it's my candidate, but I still feel it's a positive development in general.

Yes, it's terribly unfair to Clinton but it's not Obama's fault that she has been a whipping post for years. If Obama weren't in the race I seriously doubt that anything would be different where media coverage on her is concerned. Hillary Hatred is an entrenched cottage industry. To be honest, I have to give her a lot of credit for her perserverence in the face of that.

She has overcome a lot of it and was a double-digit frontrunner until pretty recently. The negative media is partly to blame for her losing some of that but so is her quite frankly lousy campaign. As someone who is working on the ground in my state, I can tell you her ground campaign sucks. As an example, their office in Phoenix was open a full week before they realized that their phone lines weren't working for incoming calls. If she gets the nomination I hope she fires her campaign staff and hires Obama's team. She'd be unstoppable in the general if she did that.

[Jai4WKC08]

43. It is naive to think

That the media won't turn on Obama as soon as he's won the nomination.

They were never rough on Gore or Kerry when they were just Senators.

[jakem]

2. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Astute observations

and I wish more folks would realize how much they have been played for

[dflprincess]

8. You would think after the MSM helped Bush get us into this war

people would have a clue about how the media works..

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. WHen is American Idol? Most folks don't realize how much they were

played for

[madmunchie]

29. Thank you, but the question is, what can we really do?

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I fear it will take more than just voting

but that will not happen until most people wake up from the stupor, or at least a critical mass

[MethuenProgressive]

4. "Non-partisan group finds huge media bias against Senator Clinton. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=132

[jlake]

5. Funny how Bill getting along with Republicans turns you off, yet Obama promises

to do the same thing and gets major kudos for it.

[madmunchie]

19. There is a major difference of Bill, leader of the Democratic Party, playing golf

w the father of the present POTUS that stole 2 elections from fellow Democratic hopefuls. Watched while W deconstructed much of what BC constructed. When we (the Democrats) really needed our leaders to rail against the sins and laws broken of W, BC was paving the way for HRC. BC had a responsibility to us, his Democratic supporters, and he negated this in favor of personal ambition.

Obama is not a saint, and I don't pretend that he is. I just am commenting on the obvious cooperation between the media, the Clintons and the Bush's.

[SoFlaJet]

6. I've thought about this a lot

as to the time-line when I stopped being a HRC fan-for me the tipping point was when she and her "buddy" John McCain came out and threw John Kerry under the bus for botching a punchline to a joke about Bush. It showed me that she was a political animal first and foremost above any kind of loyalty. She figured it was a great way to get rid of at least one of her future competitors for this election-it was slimy and forever changed my opinion of her to a strong negative

[madmunchie]

22. So very very true. She is a political animal first and foremost and that in itself is not a bad

thing. But when she is in such obvious sync with media who is behind you working feverishly to control the thoughts of the American people, I draw the line.

[SoFlaJet]

31. and when ambition

trumps party and personal loyalty-well, that was it for me

[madmunchie]

33. That is kind of what I said/meant....we are on the same page

[jasmine621]

7. So it's her fault again for what the MSM does. Obama wasn't on the POTUS radar.

Why do you allow the MSM to sway you or to think for you?

[madmunchie]

23. I don't think it is her fault. That is too simplistic for what I am saying. I am saying or rather

asking, why was the entirety of the media saying that HRC was the inevitable Democratic Nominee for POTUS, BEFORE she even announced that she entered the race? Like 2 - 3 YEARS before she even committed to running for POTUS? Where did they get their information? Why did they all agree and basically say the same lines? Every station had the same talking points.....That isn't suspect?

[Fredda Weinberg]

9. So Bill is to blame because Jimmy doesn't play well w/others?

Bill's office in Harlem has been part of its renaissance, which would be one of the cruel ironies of this day's contest. We've seen up close that he's sought out the best models and promoted 'em. Not his ... just the best.

So you drank the Kool Aid and don't like the way it tastes? Sorry, but your view of the world has predisposed you to MSM's group think.

[madmunchie]

25. Jimmy Carter isn't in bed with the Bush's, he is a true American treasure

He isn't part of the Koolaide groupies, neither am I. The people that don't believe that the Clintons, Bushs and Media aren't working in sync are the ones I believe are drinking the Koolaide.

Attacking my ideas is one thing, attacking me personally is really pretty unacceptable if you want a respectful reply.

[Fredda Weinberg]

34. No attack intended ... you just seem to have gotten your info from

biased sources and you seem to be predisposed. Carter may be a treasure but he was a poor president. Dunno about you, but it was hard to find work and he didn't inspire confidence. If he's your model, it's not my regard you have to worry about.

But I know we agree on principles, so let me apologize for my tone. It's not easy to see good people smeared from what should be "our" side.

[madmunchie]

35. "you just seem to have gotten your info from biased sources and you seem to be predisposed"

No, actually my opinion has evolved from listening to all sorts of political pundits over that last few decades. I am not the type to prescribe to listening to one person or one thought process. I have a tendency to watch, learn and listen and change my opinions when need be. I started out being one of Hillary's defenders and fans, I railed against the powers that at that time were crucifying the Clintons. Now, I am heartsick at what I see has evolved and what has evolved is a loss of hope and belief in our Democracy. Too much is happening to ignore what is written on all of the walls.....HRC is being backed by the MSM (directly or indirectly) to open and enable her to win the WH. If they didn't want her to win, they would have done to her what they did to Kucinich and JE, ignore her. It really is that simple.

[Fredda Weinberg]

36. I didn't know you then ... all I see now is the same HRC I've admired

for years. She's earned my respect with years of faithful public service - and by repeating the MSM crap you claim to decry, you have not.

Please don't take that as a personal insult - it's just the nature of the medium we're using to communicate.

[madmunchie]

37. I am not repeating the "MSM crap" I am pointing out that the MSM has been

saying that HRC is the Democratic Candidate for POTUS since BEFORE she even announced that she was running. Since 2004 was over, the MSM has been chanting over and over again that HRC will be the Democratic....How could they do that when the race didn't even start? when she didn't even commit to running for POTUS? How and Why did that happen????? How did MSM know that she was running and winning before she even decided that she was running??????

The MSM "crap" is the "crap" that they handed us our Democratic POTUS candidate BEFORE the 1st vote was cast.

Where in the MSM "crap" do you find that?

[Fredda Weinberg]

39. You'd do better if you didn't contradict yourself. Why not stop while

you're behind? All you're doing is repeating what you've heard in the echo chamber and complaining how you've been brainwashed.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this dialogue has slipped into the absurd.

[madmunchie]

44. What is absurd? You haven't refuted what I have actually said

but you throw phrases, like "echo chamber", "brainwashed", "drinking kookaide". Where did I complain about me being brainwashed? I haven't been brainwashed, if I were, I'd still be supporting HRC and crying that the MSM is so unfair to her. That is what is brainwashed thinking, because that is what many of the hardcore HRC supporters are "crying". The MSM killed DK and JE by ignoring them. Do you get that????? The MSM will hurt you the worst when they just plain ignore you. HRC has had 2 - 3 years of free campaigning done for her by the MSM before she even announced that she was running....not too shabby treatment as far as I am concerned.

Don't worry. Many don't get what I am trying to say. Yet, as I watch things unfold, I become less and less surprised. I am seeing more clearly now than I was, say 4 - 5 years ago. I, to, have evolved in my thinking over the years. While once being an ardent Clinton supporter and Hillary fan and admirer, I now see her and what she really stands for much more clearly and it isn't all that "wonderful". She is without a doubt more qualified to be POTUS that GWB ever was and will be a much better Commander in Chief than any of the "Three Stooges". But, is she the best we have to offer? NO, not by a longshot.

When so many were backing Bush with the IWR, I was not, HRC was - how about The Patriot Act - The Bankruptcy Bill? I do not think of myself "brainwashed", however when the MSM led most of the Americans into agreeing about going into Iraq, I was not swayed and was in the minority of thinking that it was wrong, unjust and a travesty of justice. I was furious at the Democrats that voted for it. Now, when the MSM is leading us to accept and support HRC as the "inevitable" Democratic Candidate, I again, will not be swayed. She may very well become the POTUS, but I again, will not be buying the latest MSM orchestration and leading of the American Sheep.

[TheDeathadder]

10. I love Hillary Clinton

I hate MSM

It kicked ass voting for Clinton today.

[rodeodance]

42. so do I

[TheDeathadder]

47. Hell Yeah!!

[Bread and Circus]

12. K and R for the first paragraph alone.

The MSM has fallen over itself over HRC since the 2004 primaries when we were all told what a bunch of sucky guys they were.

[madmunchie]

30. Thank you for that.

I don't know who will be elected POTUS, Obama is definetly coming more and more into the spotlight. I don't know, however, if he is the real deal. I suspect not.

[Benhurst]

13. Ron Brown, jr. was on Charlie Rose's show last night. He said that

the Democratic Leadership Council was pleased with both Hillary and Obama.

I'm sure there are many here who agree with the DLC.

For those of us who don't, Mr. Brown's enthusiastic support for both our front-runners is not encouraging.

The corporate press has been very supportive of Obama and strangely silent about their old nemesis Hillary since she started her presidential bid. This, too, makes me nervous.

I fear we are being set up, big time.

[madmunchie]

26. We are and what do you think that we can do about it?

[Benhurst]

27. Nothing at this juncture, I fear.

If the ticket, despite our best efforts, goes down to defeat, which I fear it may, we will have a clean slate for 2012.

No matter which party wins the White House this year, the next four years are going to be difficult at best. It might not be a bad time to be sidelined, especially if we manage increase our hold on the House and Senate. The loss of the Supreme Court would be a serious blow, although, effectively, it's close to being lost now.

[rodeodance]

41. seems to me Obama distences himself from DLC--but for some reason he is always close.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. If Iraq was still in the news do you really think that Obama would benefit?

Obama has made an effort to be evasive about Iraq at every turn. Hell, he said in 2004 that he didn't know how he would have voted on it.

[Straight Shooter]

18. He would have voted the same way he voted for Kyl/Lieberman. NV.

That way he can rhetorically huff and he can rhetorically puff and he can blow Hillary's house down.

The Kyl-Lieberman Iran amendment -- which ratchets up the confrontation with Iran by calling for the designation of its Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization responsible for killing U.S. troops -- just passed overwhelmingly, 76-22.

Of the Dem Presidential candidates, Hillary voted for the measure, Joe Biden and Chris Dodd opposed it, and Barack Obama missed the vote. On the GOP side, John McCain missed the vote.

The bill's backers had tried to mollify its critics by taking out some of its most incendiary language, particularly the idea that "it should be the policy of the United States to combat, contain, and roll back the violent activities and destabilizing influence inside Iraq of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, its foreign facilitators such as Lebanese Hezbollah, and its indigenous Iraqi proxies."

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/09/kyllieberman_iran_amendment_passes_by_huge_margin.php

[rodeodance]

40. thanks

[madmunchie]

21. I don't know if Obama would benefit, perhaps maybe by default

HRC voted for the IWR, and Obama voted against it. That part of it is really black and white. In 2004 he said that if her were to see the "Intelligence" that HRC and others had seen, it may have had an effect on his viewpoint. An honest response to a "what if" question.

[ThatPoetGuy]

15. "a bright light shining through all the murk and fog"

I liked Obama until this campaign began. And he campaigned on the opposite of light.

His supporters don't even know what he stands for. This is because Obama has deliberately downplayed the important things, like issues, ideas, and policy, so he can focus on manipulative rhetoric like "hope" and "faith" and "change."

That's not shining a light. That's deliberately making things harder to see.

John Edwards brought a light. Barack Obama is a demagogue.

I'm going to caucus for him, but his campaign has harmed America.

[demokatgurrl]

24. So why will you caucus for him? I'm confused. N/t

[ThatPoetGuy]

32. Because it's the campaign I dislike, not the man.

His campaign manager has chosen not to focus on ideas. His campaign managers have told volunteers not to discuss Obama's policies. I find this a despicable way to campaign.

The policies aren't awful. The man has a good record. I just find this campaign, his campaign, appalling, and I hope he nominates better people to run the cabinet than he nominated to run his campaign.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. I've been turned off to Hill since she held secret meetings with the Insurance CEOs and

kicked the grass roots under the bus back in 1993.

[demokatgurrl]

20. If you're seeing love for Hillary Clinton in the MSM

I'd love to see that too 'cause I missed it entirely. Even the fucking NY Times hates her. Oh I know, they gave her that lukewarm endorsement but read the columns. Aside from Krugman, total hate for her.

[madmunchie]

28. What is the saying about there is no such thing as bad press?

I have been watching to, and funny, but compared to the 90's, the media is having a long lasting lovefest with Hillary.

When she cries, it is all over the news, when she has a coughing jag, it is all over the news, I've heard "I'm your gal" more times than I can count. I've heard "I'll be ready on day one"..... I've heard about the fact that she is experienced compared to Obama over and over. Sure things are debated. But even when HRC is slighted, she gets a bump in the ratings.....it is all so well orchestrated. Sure some of it works and some doesn't, that is to be expected.

[rodeodance]

38. At least you reconize it was the media who conjured up the Inevitablity rhetoric. But your mistake

was believing it!! they snocker you good!




...I liked Hillary until about 2- 3 years ago the MSM started talking about how Hillary was the inevitable Democratic Nominee for POTUS in 2008. All of the political pundits were talking about this, so matter a fact, that I was astounded. Day in and Day out MSM touted HRC as the inevitable

[madmunchie]

45. I don't believe that HRC will definetly win, but she'll have enough support

that if she ends up with the nomination, it won't be so questioned. Meaning, Diebold can be fixed to work for anybody.

[eridani]

48. I don't want to vote for Mark Penn, Blackwater and cluster bombs n/t

[madmunchie]

49. I see Hillary and I see a different personality at different times

in this last few months or so. Sometimes I wonder which Hillary will be on the debates, sometimes I wonder which Hillary will be making a speech, lately I wonder when she will turn on the tears again. It has gotten pretty pathetic. Her campaign style changes with the wind of the voters. I know that all candidates adjust, in campaigns, but her adjustments are almost rebirths at times.

[AGirl]

50. I think it has to do with the fact that she is a woman.

[madmunchie]

51. Now, she wants more debates and is having a hard time with her

campaign finances.......speaking of desperation?

[jeffrey_X]

52. What did she move to New York? Looks like that move paid off yesterday.

Gotta love the politics behind every single breath she takes.