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If Clinton gets the nod, will I have to shut up or get tombstoned? (An Essay)

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 04:48 PM
Original message
If Clinton gets the nod, will I have to shut up or get tombstoned? (An Essay)
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 04:54 PM by JackRiddler
(NOTE: Because of the deeply-held views I summarize below, I cannot conceive of supporting Clinton for president, but probably will vote for Obama in November, if he’s the candidate. A cardinal rule at DU prohibits postings that argue against a Democratic nominee in a general election. So if Clinton emerges as the nominee, which is possible at any point starting today, I will avoid threads about her until after November. I have a history at DU and enjoy the debates here on many subjects. I definitely do not want to get “tombstoned,” but I do want to take this possibly last chance to tell things exactly as I see them. Some people will take the following as “cynicism” or “defeatism,” but I disagree. Truth unvarnished, knowing where you stand is your only hope of commanding your own fate. Thanks.)

.

A Sighing Endorsement for Obama

It’s axiomatic--and tragic--that our democracy is far less “one-person, one vote” than “one-dollar, one vote.”

The acceptable issues and the very narrow bounds of debate are defined by the money of the ruling class, the corporate media, and the weight of historic ideologies. Well in advance of anyone getting to cast a vote, the money and the media choose the “viable” candidates within the party duopoly, which retains an iron hold over nearly all offices. But in observing the Presidential dramas since 1976, I have never seen one as completely pre-arranged as this one, with controlled players in each of the usual roles years in advance. It’s like watching the perfection of a system, which may be a good thing since in human affairs perfection often indicates a coming upheaval.

Obama was conjured out of nowhere and declared as the only possible alternative to Clinton on the Democratic side. The money and the media and the likes of Zbigniew Brzezinski fell in line to guarantee it, more than a year before anyone could vote. He did not use any of the usual catapults out of obscurity. He did not have national base, a long career as a politician, a single-issue focus, or a role in a defining event. The unprecedented way he just appeared overnight indicates some deal, to which are not yet privy, must have been cut.

And yet he offers the last sad glimmer of hope that anything the least unpredictable might happen once the election is done.

A frontrunner always generates an “anything-but” opponent. This goes double for a frontrunner with the baggage of the Clinton name. If Obama had not been set up as the alternative to Clinton from the start, someone more genuine, someone who had more to offer than empty promises of “Change” and “Hope” might have arisen to take on that mantle. But I doubt Edwards was that more genuine contender. With hindsight, his role also appears arranged: he talked like the real thing, but in the end he merely ate up the oxygen that might have gone to a potential left insurgency. (There's almost never really a danger of a left insurgency in U.S. politics, but the mind of the ruling class remains forever scarred by the Sixties.)

Let’s look at what Edwards actually did: His voting record and reliability in enabling the Bush agenda are indistinguishable from Clinton’s. In running against his own record, he is necessarily full of shit. But at least he says the right things about corporatism and to a lesser extent the occupation, unlike any of the other "allowable" frontrunners. Yet after stirring the pot with class-war rhetoric, he drops out just before most people get a chance to vote for him! Does anyone doubt he would have polled 15 percent and more in today’s contests, picking up a similar proportion of delegates, perhaps becoming the kingmaker at the convention? Instead, he denies a voice to the people stirred by the issues he promoted. In his farewell, he laughably says he is glad that Obama and Clinton have now adopted his concerns for workers and the poor. (!) This a betrayal. Edwards mobilized the left in a safe, predictable way, then dumped them suddenly, leaving no choice but Obama, Clinton, or irrelevancy.

The role of Ron Paul on the Republican side is similar, in that he marshalls a potential insurgency in an ultimately harmless fashion. But Paul presents a number of paradoxes. The only remaining principled stance against the Iraq occupation and imperialism (other than Gravel!) is coupled with the same free-market delusions that drive imperialism. The only direct challenge to the power of capital (at any rate, “bankers” ) comes with a fatally fantastic view of economic history. The one guy who wants to end the drug war and roll back USA PATRIOT also wants a wall on the southern border, and fails to see that his idea of an immigration policy necessitates a police state. Add semi-medieval positions on abortion and gay rights, and a view of the Constitution that apparently ends after the 11th Amendment. To his credit, and unlike Edwards, he may show the integrity to take his campaign to the convention. Although I could not conceive supporting him, he may be the least compromised politician in the running. (Then there is the paradox of his supporters; many of the most active of them attracted through the 9/11 truth movement, in an act of mass self-delusion; he can hardly be accused of pandering to them, as he has even endorsed the 9/11 Commission.)

McCain, Romney, Clinton, and 99% of Obama - is there a risk any of them will go against the will of the top quarter-percent, the owners and the power elite? Given the crisis, of course, the will of the "powers that be" (PTB) may prove to be less monolithic than usual.

What's interesting is how each of them comes ready-made with a grenade pin allowing their instantaneous implosion-by-media. This was always true of the duopoly party nominees, but perhaps never to this extent. McCain's an obviously sick man, liable to be spun into an unstable ogre by the media on command. He'd better avoid screaming. Romney's a nothing and a nobody, a sad blowhard, a car salesman, another actor, and no way he doesn't have his crooked deals and perversions on file with Spook Central. By this time, it is pointless to again review here the ways in which Clinton and her gang turned fraudulent many years ago; there are those who see it, and those who do not want to see it. In each case, the vulnerabilities of these candidates, more than their putative strengths, paradoxically attract the money and the nods from the power elites. Integrity and a lack of personal corruption are a disadvantage.

Obama, besides whatever secrets or bad real estate he may have been involved in, comes with the advantage--for remote-control saboteurs--that his race, which so far has been played as a strength, can be turned into negative among the white majority. It need not even be done by a direct attack. For example, any murder case involving a black man can be turned into this year's bogus media tsunami a la OJ Simpson (or Willie Horton), until no white person fails to associate it with Obama. One reason I will vote for Obama in November will be in an effort to counter the many white people who are likely to vote against him only because he's black--the vast number of them covert in their racism, so I'm talking about North and West as well as the cliché of the Southern redneck. (This endorsement depends of course on how horrid he gets rhetorically and whether I can still stomach him by then.)

Obama may finally get the nod from the PTB as a re-branding offensive. This country can sure use a new face for its global P.R., and it's hard to imagine anything that will set off more positive symbolic tremors in the world (without actually disrupting business as usual) than an African in the White House. This may make a real difference, if he's serious about talking to the "Axis of Evil."

Certainly the worst imaginable outcome is to continue the dynasty. I do not question Clinton’s gender, qualifications, talents or “experience”: it suffices to remember her record. As economy and society crash, HRC is guaranteed to follow the Clinton program of hold the fort and capitulate to the right.

Worst of all, her actions, no matter how egregiously imperialist, will be spun in the media as products of a hard-left or “liberal” mindset. Her enemies will be celebrate her return: they will never shut up about complete bullshit, and it will be faithfully echoed by the television. They will attribute all that goes wrong to her being “a lesbian,” or to Bill Clinton's godless dick. And have we not already seen how this routine sticks well enough to gum up all other business?

Let us hope enough primary voters wise up to the game before it’s too late. Obama is someone Republicans secretly think they can beat in 2008, simply because he’s black. But Clinton is the Republican choice for president. They expect to lose this election; she makes the perfect foil for Jeb Bush or some equivalent nightmare in an overtly fascist landslide in 2012.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. kick for readers - fast board today!
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. You have guidelines to follow like the rest
as we as Democrats must buck-up and work together no matter which dynamic Democrat gets the Nomination . Actally, I have a strong feeling it will be a Clinton/Obama ticket anyways so we all will have our needs met at some level.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Clinton/Obama is a pipedream. Never happen.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I completely agree.
Clinton/Obama only had a chance before he threw his hat into the ring.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
43. You didn't read the OP, did you.
"a Clinton/Obama ticket anyways so we all will have our needs met"

That is REALLY NOT what the OP is saying.
A Clinton/Obama ticket would meet the needs of ONLY the Republican Wing of the Democratic Party.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone


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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. yes. rules apply to everyone. n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Who are you? The enforcer?
I sure get the feeling you didn't read my essay before you answered the question in the headline. Not even the Note at the beginning.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. You asked a question. I answered it. I read your first paragraph and
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 05:35 PM by in_cog_ni_to
your last paragraph and that's all I needed to know. You hate Hillary...you won't vote for her. SAD, SAD, SAD and pathetic that you could hate that woman as much as you do. You'd rather have a repuke in power than her. How screwed up is that?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Now here's a funny thought: I'd rather have her as President for Life
if that was the point of the election, instead of a Republican.

However, there will be more elections after this one.

And I'm sorry that you can't break out of your mental straitjacket in which all criticism of Clinton is due to "hatred." Hope you get better.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. "I cannot conceive of supporting Clinton for president"
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 06:54 PM by in_cog_ni_to
Your quote, not mine. You won't support her in the GE? I hope YOU get better.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. No, I will not support the Clinton Dynasty, or the Bush Dynasty with which it is allied. n/t
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. We heard this sort of stuff when Kerry was running...
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 09:06 PM by niceypoo
That Kerry would be like another Bush because he voted yes on IRW, then defended his vote, and if he wins I leave the party and hold my breath til I die...blah, blah, blah. Very few were so sensitive that nursing a bruised ego was more important than the party or the country. Most of the Kerry haters grew up and faced reality once he was nominated. The ones who left were never Democrats anyway, just confused fence sitters. Of course the ones that continued to be assholes got banned.
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SheWhoMustBeObeyed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. You left out Skull-n-Bonz
"My candidate is a real Dem and yours is Bush Lite/Bush enabler/Bush whatever" is one of the stupidest and most persistent POVs on this board.

I feel like I'm watching reruns.

I'm getting ready to change the channel.
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Who are you?
could be the runt of the litter and slow on the uptake maybe?

Help us out here so we can accommodate your needs.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. rules apply to you. no matter how holier than thou you want to be
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 05:11 PM by lionesspriyanka
also in your note: you yourself say you will shut up about clinton. if you shut up no one will know or care how you vote
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. It seems that he's saying he's going to abide by the rules.
He speaks now, and will forever hold his peace.

I myself have been avoiding candidate threads as of late. There may be a tombstone in my future.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thank you for indicating you've actually read something in my post.
It seems to be inspiring pavlovian reactions from self-appointed hall monitors.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Hall Monitors?
Personality cults is more like it.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yeah, true... and do note I said "Self-appointed"
So I ain't talking about mods but about those who take it on themselves to play mod.

But I think I know what you mean about personality cults... by any means necessary, right? If the rules fit, they're great, if not, they're unfair, long as "ours" wins.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. if you read my post that is what i said. he said he would shut up about clinton
if she was our candidate, and i said no one would care to ts him if that was the case
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
7.  as cynical as what you've written is, can't fault anything you've said except that
republicans see obama as someone they can beat. I work in the construction industry...with republicans. They all "like" obama...but want whoever the repub is to win. They are crossing their fingers for a hillary win as they only candidate that will fire up the base to go out and vote AGAINST her.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Yeah, the way they "like" would be interesting to deconstruct.
Don't want to get too twisted in this but white people nowadays deny their racism even to themselves. At the same time, they tend to think they suffer under a tyranny of political correctness wherein they must say nice things about black people (among other groups).

So I wonder how much your Republican acquaintances "like" Obama, or (more likely) feel nothing about him except a certain compulsion to say they like him, lest they be exposed as not liking him for the wrong reasons, about which they're not even sure... you see what I mean?
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
51. it prob depends on where you live
the minority that is most down trodden and discriminated against in my area ...is the central americans, and yes many are prob undocumented. i have run into some openly racist whites...but they're mostly in the city of baltimore, and just as poor as any of the others living in the projects or section 8.
But Obama let's be straight...is bi-racial. There's prob a whole comfort level right there for whites.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Can you sum that up in one sentence or less?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. No, but I can offer a remedial reading course.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. hyuck hyuck hyuck!
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. The rule is somewhat open to interpretation
"You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party nominee for any political office."

For example, we know that after the nominee is determined, there will be yes or no polls asking if you'll vote for the nominee. Would a member be tombstoned for simply answering no?

Clarification from admin. would be appreciated.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. You'd think there would be some flexibility if there's actually interest in gaining...
more than the faithful partisans of a given candidate, no?

Especially if it's the-one-we-know-inspires-ire, no?
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Indeed
It all comes down to how admin. defines "working for the defeat of the nominee". It would also be interesting to know whether this rule will go into effect after Super Tuesday results are known or whether it will be when the nominee is officially announced at the convention.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
72. "You are not permitted to use this message board to work for the defeat of the Democratic Party" ???
Then you should not be able to stump for Hillary, because that is working for the complete rout of the party by the Repugs, as well as its rot and decay from within.

:rofl:
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. With you there....I will proudly become tombstoned. :) nt
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goldcanyonaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. Many Anyone but Obamas wish to know too.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. Just go back to bashing Republicans instead of the Clinton's.
You should be okay.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Are you sure those are mutually exclusive sets?
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
55. Repubs cannot distinguish between Hillary Clinton and Fidel Fucking Castro
You are aware of this, are you not?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Yes I am aware that many Republicans cannot do that.
But maybe my perspective is closer to Castro's than yours...
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. Maybe, maybe not.
My point of view is somewhat to the left of Castro, if that helps.

Anyway, my point is that the two factions of the ruling class tend to have no idea how much alike they really are, and their partisans tend to mentally short-circuit if you try to point it out, depending on how much they believe their own bullshit.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Ah, clarity. When you put it that way then
I realize we share that page. Except perhaps it's more like one ruling class setting up two apparent factions to create a system that is hellaciously stable, compared to one-party rule. The two serve different clienteles for the votes, so some real differences arise, most obviously in Supreme Court appointments (used as a trump card when all other arguments fail). But in the years between elections they unite whenever there is a crisis or question directly affecting ruling-class interests -- especially if it's about war or the primacy of private-corporate control of all economic activity.
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. I don't see how Obama would be any different, though
He's bought and paid for just like the rest of 'em.


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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Yup.
See OP: I agree with you. But I can do "lesser of two evils" sometimes, too. Obama has less baggage and re-brands America after Bush. He breaks the Bush-Clinton cycle, after 20 years. These differences are largely in the collective imagination, but they count.

But yeah, that's about it. Change comes from the people, united, or not at all.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. Most intelligent writing that I've seen on DU as long as I can remember...
I'm pretty excited about Obama. I didn't want to believe in anything after '04, I tried to ignore it all while Clinton ver 2.0.135 was poll tested and installed in the White House. My wife forced me to look at Obama, and here I am, hooked on a candidate again.

If I could remain my cynical (and probably more academically correct self) I'd see it similar to you. But I'm still young (less than half a century) so I will give my heart to a candidate one more time.

But either way, your essay is 5 stars and better writing than what you'd find in most professional publications.

Finally, I wonder what the "thought police" on DU will allow us to say once we have chosen a nominee.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. WOW, thanks! That's very kind of you. nt
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. Theres a lot of cynicism in your post
I can buy into a lot of it. I am glad in the end you went with hope. It may turn out to be false hope in the end. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. well, to be fair
Obama used the exact same springboard to prominence that bill Clinton, ronald Reagan and others have used, a kick ass speech at the previous convention that put them on the map. Anyone who heard his speech in 2004 knee he would run this year.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes, I see...
But still It Takes A Hundred Million Dollars, to coin a phrase. Where did those come from?

And how did he obtain the status of Pre-Ordained by Media more than a year ago? Was that the case with Bill Clinton in 1992?

Reagan is not at all comparable - he was a national brandname b-movie star and governor of California for two terms.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Well Jack...you've stated that if Hillary is nominated that you will not vote for her...
is that a correct statement?

If so, then you are willingly giving up the defense of the Constitution with it's Bill Of Rights, and almost as importantly, giving up our need for control of the SCOTUS.

Despite your high-flying words, that is what you have to offer us. The elimination of the US as a world power with our overseas respect intact.

OK, so thats where you stand. A patriot you are not.

What if, your candidate wins the nomination. Would it, under the terms described above, be a good thing for all Hillary supporters...or Edwards supporters, or any other supporters to not vote in November...or even worse, vote for more of the same crimes that have taken place for 8 years. Is your ego so involved with one candidate that you will fail to defend and protect your own country?

What happens to your candidate if only half the party votes for him?

I think, absolutely not knowing how today will turn out, that you need to sit down in a quiet place to mull over your comments and your decision.

This applies to all Dems who have made the same claim. They will NOT vote for this candidate or that candidate if their egos are not stroked.

Rethink it all Jack.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Other way around, I am afraid.
I saw Clinton, for whom I voted, abandon defense of the Constitution starting on September 12, 2001 with her support of a bogus "war on terror" designed to push emergency doctrine and a "unitary executive" and her votes for the USA PATRIOT Act, the Iraq attack authorization, and many other elements of the Bushista assault on the Constitution and the world. She has made no indication that she will roll back the negative accomplishments of the Bush agenda. For you to now pretend she is the defender of the Bill of Rights is laughable, although it also makes me sad for you.

Strong-arm rhetoric and equating rejection of Hillary with treason are never going to work.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. As the Senator from Ground Zero, Hillary would have had the bully pulpit
to say "Hold on just a cotton-pickin' minute, let's not
throw away our rights in our rush to defend ourselves."

History called her, and she was not there to answer.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
37. LOL - Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
This is a Democratic forum.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Oh really? Who gets to define Democratic?
Thanks for the inevitable "love it or leave it" rhetoric.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. No rhetoric. If you are going to work for the Repugs take a hike.
I contribute to this forum because the rules are very clear about this kind of thing.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. So critique of Democrats = "Working for Republicans"?
Where the hell do I say I'd ever work for Republicans?

You are displaying the absolutism of the party insider who schematizes the world as us and them.

This is like the Stalinists who said all dissent came from agents of Western capitalism.
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Working against the Democratic nominee = Repug. - n/t
Edited on Tue Feb-05-08 08:52 PM by BrightKnight
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Not willing to support = "working against" ??
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Dufaeth Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
61. If you're not with us your against us...right?
:eyes:
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
66. If you are against us get lost! This is a "Democratic" forum. -n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #66
79. Why in quotes?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. I think the Democratic Party gets to define Democratic.
And it gets to elect its representatives.

I don't say that to give you a hard time. I like you, though we disagree on this, and would be sorry to see you gone.

Just trying to answer the question.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'm hoping for both
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PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. ,
:spray:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. Well, it's good to know. nt
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
41. K & R
Thank you for this very intelligent analysis! We really do not have much of a choice here. I suppose I will vote for the nominee in November, but the two candidates both seem bought-and-sold to the powers that be. Hillary has proven her allegiance, and Obama seems like an empty suit. Which is why I did not vote today.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
75. thanks!
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
47. A Hillary nomination will force many Progressive/Liberals
to adopt a longer view for the implementation of reforms necessary for the survival of our democracy.

Make no mistake, Campaign 2008 was a HUGE DEFEAT for Americans who Work for a Living and for Economic Justice in the USA.

Somewhere, there is a tombstone with my name on it. :shrug:


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone


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uncertainty1999 Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
48. Clinton is NOT the "Republican choice." That's ridiculous. n/t
That's like Nader saying there was no difference between D's and R's.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
50. How do we break the mold?
Every candidate with a chance to become president is molded by the system of media-driven perception upon which people base their votes. The media, in turn, is driven by the PTB. Candidates who try to break the mold are framed as whackos or simply ignored.

The method by which the voting public is informed must significantly change in order to achieve any meaningful change in the viability of candidates and the agenda they can can effectively advance.

The internet is widespread but diffuse, with people inhabiting their own little worlds therein without a real sense of a larger community, much like neighborhoods in the suburbs where neighbors barely know one another.

Given the role of money in politics and the pervasiveness of the PTB, must the needed change come entirely from the bottom up? What does the revolution look like?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. It's a very weak system if only it could be challenged...
In my fantasies a mere half-billion dollars in P.R. irretrievably exposes the present system as intolerable and creates overwhelming pressure on three fronts: democracy reform (public campaign finance, free media time, proportional representation), ending the drug war (forces a scale back of fear-based politics and the police state) and transparency (an end to covert policy/deep politics). I think these are the pressure points from which the rise of a social democracy and the end of imperialism would follow.

Now don't laugh at what I just said: probably half a billion has been spent on this campaign!
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. A one-time PR blitz ain't gonna do it
In order to sustain the institutional change you mentioned, a considerable amount of education and participation must take place. A half-billion dollars might get that ball rolling, but I have to wonder if things have to get considerably worse before people will really stand up and BE the change that's needed.

As long as there is plenty of bread and circus, the masses will probably remain fat and ignorant.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. So maybe I'm "cynical"
Can I imagine tens of millions of Americans spontenously pulling their money out of the big banks and setting up local banking collectives? Buying food through cooperatives that purchase from local organic producers? Setting up labor-hour exchanges and community currencies, achieving the maximum possible local self-sufficiency? Surging into local politics with a global perspective?

Marching in the millions to put an end to a war-based economy, demanding conversion of production to peaceful purposes, demanding single-payer health care? Understanding that interventionist politics and imperialism are against their own interests? Rejecting the idea of America: World Police? Demanding transparency and an end to covert operations?

Figuring out transportation systems that move away from the exclusive focus on the automobile? Demanding that the railways and canals be rebuilt? Subsidizing alternative energies (real ones, not the ethanol scam) instead of oil?

Well, yes. I can imagine all that.

It's just easier to imagine all of that if we can first gain the high ground in the battle of how reality is defined. The issues there are the hold of the corporate media, of money in politics and of the duopoly party system; and the politics of fear (the drug war and the focus on "terrorism"). We live in the society of P.R. and I think that's where it has to start. Can you think of a successful capitalist model for media with a message that in many ways would be anti-capitalist? Because really, the volume of bullshit that can be generated on the corporate side is going to drown out any dissonant message. That's how it's been, so far.
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Psyop Samurai Donating Member (873 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
58. As authentic a narrative as can be constructed...
This goes in the permanent file. Thank you.

So far as "shutting up" goes, I don't see why it should be necessary. Just avoid the hoopla, and stick to the issues. I really can't be bothered with the zombies. Anyone who doesn't know what's up by now, doesn't want to. Yet, we coexist here as in "real life". That is, if you call the pretend world we're inhabiting "real".

:hi:
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-05-08 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
62. You lost me at "egregiously imperialist." You seem to understand as little about such things
in actual real, historical terms as you do the difference between the Byzantines and the Western Roman Empire.

There is not - and never has been - a single candidate for the Democratic primary in 2008 who even remotely resembles the description "egregiously imperialist," period.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. !
:applause:
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #62
68. We'll talk again at the next war, Imperator.
Not that I'll be happy about it.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
70. Exactly.
It's enough to make any politician who is not completely co-opted scream!
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
71. Best post in all the years I've been on DU
Edited on Wed Feb-06-08 09:41 AM by HamdenRice
Even as I voted enthusiastically for Obama, I felt that the entire thing was staged.

We rarely have this level of analysis in the US, let alone on DU.

I wish I could give this multiple recs!

My only comment is that if you repost this elsewhere, use a more descriptive title, because it's about much more than having to shut up, and you will avoid all the uncomprehending responses that seemed to think that all this post was about was DU's rules.

Sadly, I also will not vote for Clinton if she is the nominee. Whatever her policies by that point, it would be a vote for establishing dynastic politics in the US; for a catastrophic soap opera, Clinton bashing presidency; and Jeb, Neil or some other unholy fruit of the Bush family's loins in 2012 or 2016.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. You flatter me, sir!
Which is okay. ;) Thank you.

Yes, the proper title would be like, "Analysis of election and candidates," but when posted here the conclusions do raise the question of the DU rules (and well, it's best to put a hook in the title, no?).
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
74. Funniest thing about the responses is how many people think...
that this means I'm with the Obama campaign.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-06-08 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
76. The thanks-to-all kick.nt
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-07-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. The final just-in-case you didn't see it kick...
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