But, gentle orthodoxist, if misandry doesn't exist, why did 1 in 4 women...

[CorpGovActivist]

... report that gender played a role in their voting decision, while only 1 in 5 men reported that?*

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4359071&mesg_id=4359071">A Misandry primer.

Since we all know that http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=larry+summers+women+math+sciences">neither gender has a hammerlock on math and science (hint, hint, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Summers">former Clinton Treasury Secretary, disgraced Harvard University President, and all-around ass, Larry Summers**), I assume that everyone here knows that:

1/4 = 25%

1/5 = 20%

25 > 20

I even think most DUers here, regardless of gender, could figure out how to do the standard deviation on that difference.

Now, please discuss the exit polling data, without using the argument that: "well, the men just lied."

That, gentle orthodoxist, is not an appropriate use of the Scientific Method. Not even close.

One standard for all, in the hallowed halls.***

- Dave

* Source: My TiVo'ed version of MSNBC's Super Tuesday coverage. Video clip available, if someone can give me a tutorial on how to pull it out of my TiVo.

** Some progressive alumni/ae raised holy hell. (Yes, gentle orthodoxist, many men were pissed off too, and threatened to withhold ***OUR*** donations to the school, in solidarity with the rightfully-angry women in our community, if Larry's little noggin' didn't roll, roll, roll, with eyes bugging.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Gilpin_Faust">Dr. Drew Gilpin Faust, the first-ever woman President of Harvard - chosen by an exhaustive and fully-competitive search, after an inter-regnum of Derek Bok coming back as regent - has done much to heal the rift and move our community forward, toward a more perfect pursuit of gender-blind Veritas.

*** Just one reason why I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermione_Granger">Hermione rocks as a role model. She hangs in the hallowed halls, and more than holds her own.

P.S. On edit: Those who knew me well, way back when, know: don't come to class without having done the reading, and go on the offensive to cover for your lack of reading. Don't spout or parrot orthodoxy, and throw down, if you can't hang, or hang your argument, on the facts. Either you got here on your merits, or ya didn't. See the TF after class for extra credit, if needed.

[splat]

1. Identity politics is more acceptable than misogyny

[TheWraith]

2. What's the difference?

If you're voting for someone just because they're a member of your clique, isn't that an inherent bias in favor of "your people" and against everyone else?

I can understand a desire for proportional representation, but there's a difference between that and voting SOLELY for the purpose of supposed group solidarity.

[CorpGovActivist]

7. It's like the old tried and true blue eye, brown eye experiment with kids.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blue+brown+eye+favorable+experiment+teacher+simulation">It's a tried and true empathy experiment.

1. Make a big production of separating the class by eye color.

2. Treat one side favorably (unfairly giving them passes on homework, in-class work, etc.).

3. Repeat #2, and see how long until you have yourself a budding little activist from the oppressed group.

: )

- Dave

[jasmine621]

64. Men lie more. nt

[splat]

3. For vs. against

Voting for someone incidentally votes against all others, but the intention is to support someone with whom you identify.

That is a voting criterion in the exit polls: "A candidate who cares about people like me."

Rational issue analysis is not the only valid voting determinant.

[CorpGovActivist]

9. That's an interesting nuance.

So, if I understand you correctly (and correct me if I'm wrong, feeling free to clarify):

1. If a voter votes AGAINST a candidate based on a personally-held stereotype (e.g., "women aren't fit to ..."), that is one thing, and distinguishable from:

2. When a voter sees someone who is like him/her, and votes FOR that candidate, based upon a rationally-perceived belief that the candidate shares his/her values and belief system, and will, accordingly, be more likely to seek policies beneficial to him/her?

That's not a bad basic framework.

- Dave

[krkaufman]

18. Sounds like what I've heard... "want a woman in the White House"...

... "'cause she'll wake up every day knowing women's issues, without having to be forcibly reminded."

(Not so sure it applies universally. See: Thatcher.)

[CorpGovActivist]

19. While understandable to have an affinity to see "one of your own"...

... catapulted into the inner sanctum of policy-making power, it is wise to consider the caliber and calibre of the shot you're loading the catapult with.

Contrast Margaret Thatcher with Gro Harlem Brundtland.

- Dave

[krkaufman]

20. hummina wha?

(google is my friend)

[krkaufman]

21. Sorta the opposite end of the spectrum from the Iron Lady, eh. n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

22. Yes. And curiously, never the comparison that one hears from a certain campaign.

[krkaufman]

23. Not sure anyone would know who she's talking about.

I'd never heard of her before, and don't expect many others have, either. (I can't wait for the embedded CPUs for insta-googling. :) )

[CorpGovActivist]

24. Wetware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wetware">Wetware and instant downloads of data: a favorite depiction was in The Matrix.

Helicopter lessons in under 10 seconds.

- Dave

P.S. Still. There is much joy to be had in learning the old-fashioned way.

[krkaufman]

25. Precisely. What a wonderful concept ...

... where virus will meet virus to create a most uncommon cold.

edit: p.s. All rights reserved. Have your people call my people.

[CorpGovActivist]

26. Deal.

We'll do lunch!

:rofl:

:toast:

PM me with details so we can set it up whenever one or the other of us is in the other's neck of the woods.

- Dave

P.S. Nicely crafted!

[krkaufman]

27. Our hero/heroine will, of course, be the rugged individualist/luddite ...

... who refused to submit to the hi-tech integration, or maybe had some physical defect that prevented doing so (which, of course, led to ridicule and ostracism), and who is now the only one able to save the species from complete submission to computer control.

Think 'Battlestar Gallactica' meets 'Harrison Bergeron'/'Gattica' meets 'Body Snatchers' meets 'Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer'

:)

[CorpGovActivist]

28. Oh. Yeah.

Definitely PM me with your contact details.

- Dave

[krkaufman]

31. I'm thinking we can get some WGA writers to help us w/ the script on the cheap!!

Ack! Am I a scab?

[CorpGovActivist]

33. Careful. I grew up in a UMWA family.

:rofl:

Some fang strikes are "just because," ya know?

; )

- Dave

[krkaufman]

41. There is no cold without heat...

... no relaxation without tension.

[CorpGovActivist]

45. Tsunami Tuesday provided a bit of tension relief.

:smoke:

Let's go find a blackjack table. I'm feelin' lucky.

:toast:

- Dave

[krkaufman]

47. I'm packing any stray luck into a pack for storage ...

... in case it's needed in OH, TX or PA.

(Though I may need to make a withdrawal this afternoon, as I try to make my way to the train. Got's to catch an Amtrak to the parents, and they're forecasting a foot of snow here, in Chicago.)

[CorpGovActivist]

49. Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

Godspeed on the train. Favorite way to travel. Cool people. Social. Inspiring scenery (cutting thru landscape not often seen from major highways). Food car. Beer car.

:toast:

Amtrak does a good deal on the DC-Chicago route, and it passes through my old hometown, and stops in my new one. Plan a trip. Be safe on this one.

[slampoet]

34. I know what you mean. It's like saying... "I'm glad Paris Hilton is getting all the media attention,

......because everyday she will wake up knowing women's issues, without having to be forcibly reminded."


It seems like the women who are into women's issues are MUCH MORE into Hillary than Mrs. Clinton seems to actually be into women's issues.


I say it from time to time, but Hillary really hasn't proven her resume on women's issues. Plus she hurt women BADLY with her vote on the bankruptcy bill.


How can you say you are in touch with women's issues if you don't understand financial pressure, divorce, and bankruptcy?

(same goes for Biden)

[krkaufman]

42. I hate being a one-trick pony ...

... but her IWR vote is another slip on "women's issues", I would think. Military families are falling apart, through divorce and suicide, all unnecessarily.

The category would seem to be rather broad.

[CorpGovActivist]

51. Pardon the interruption, but NMFA.org - National Military Family Association - has some fine info...

... you might find useful in putting a bit more sparkle in your one - very salient - trick.

- Dave

[krkaufman]

53. Thanks, Dave.

(Karl)

[CorpGovActivist]

4. Same coin. To that extent, I agree.

[CorpGovActivist]

11. .

[NashVegas]

5. I Am So Sick and Fucking Tired Of Your Misogynist Horsecrap

By your logic, the 80% of black voters who went with Obama are racists.

[CorpGovActivist]

6. No, that's a logical fallacy.

[NashVegas]

8. Then Allow My To Put It This Way

In the majority of the exit polls I have seen, there were far more women who crossed a gender line and voted for a male candidate than there were male voters who crossed gender lines and voted for a female.

Could it be that men were more dishonest with the pollsters - or maybe they're just more dishonest with themselves?

[CorpGovActivist]

10. I'll be the first to admit...

... that many people I've met aren't very self-aware.

These are serious issues of academic research and inquiry, and they have genuine implications for the primary race on the Democratic side, and potentially on into the General.

By raising these issues, I'm not trying to be the Asshole Laureate of DU. Honestly, I'm not.

I want to see a Democrat in the White House more than anything else in the world.

I'm asking people here - some of whom are sharp as a tack - to think seriously about these issues.

Honestly: had you ever even heard the word, "misandry" before?

- Dave

[Uncle Sinister]

12. So by extension, my vote for Clinton is because I'm secretly a racist?

I call crap, and I don't care how many multisyllabic words you throw down.

[CorpGovActivist]

13. No. All wrens are birds, but not all birds are wrens. Each word one beat.

[Skittles]

29. yes I have heard the word "misandry" before

almost exclusively from males with mommy issues

[slampoet]

35. Looks like you're the one who needs to grow up or get out of the sandbox.

(Y'know if you give respect you get it back.)

[Lilith Velkor]

40. We tried that for about 6000 years.

Didn't work out for us.

Sorry, but respect has to be earned. Whining about partially losing an unfair advantage is just inviting ridicule.

[CorpGovActivist]

63. I like both my parents just fine.

They're both good, decent, funny, humane, and neat people. I'd be happy to know them both as friends, even if they weren't family.

So, you can exclude me from that "mostly."

- Dave

[NashVegas]

36. Yes, I Have Heard That Word

And the true percentage of the population it applies to is minuscule.

Hillary gets called "bitch" and other female-specific put-downs on a regular basis. How many posts on DU or on blogs or in newspaper message boards are there, calling Obama a "dick" or any other negative terms exclusively used for men?

And I'm past caring what anyone thinks: if the 53-56% of the female population voting for Hillary are doing so because out of misandry, then surely the 80-90% of the black population voting for Obama are doing so out of racism.

Why do we cut one group a break, and not the other?

[Lilith Velkor]

39. For real.

An actual man-hater would *never* back a woman who stays married to Bill Clinton.

Still, it's a curiously refreshing change from the accusations of racism. "Help! Help! The mens's bein' oppressed!" :rofl:

[Proud2BAmurkin]

14. Do we know how gender played a role for male or females?

My guess is they voted for their own but who knows, I can see voting female or black if the candidates were the same

[CorpGovActivist]

15. That would be worth delving into more deeply. Some progressive men, for instance...

... may have been motivated by a sincere, heartfelt desire to help elect a woman President, to demonstrate to themselves (if not others) that they will practice what they preach.

Similarly, a respondent to such an exit poll who answered, "Yes," to a similar question on race may have been motivated by a sincere, heartfelt, and progressive desire to put into practice their deeply-held beliefs that race shouldn't matter when picking a President.

Whether the exit poll in question parsed matters that finely or not was not revealed in that MSNBC segment.* But if we can envision benign situations such as this, surely we can also be honest with ourselves and say that - for other respondents - something entirely different was at work, when they confessed that gender or race factored into their decision, or controlled it?

- Dave

* We should all remind ourselves that they are spoonfeeding us a high-level synopsis, while curiously failing to post the raw data for us to review.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

57. My guess is it went like this

More of the male voter 20% was for Clinton than the female 25% was for Obama.
but there also might be a difference in if the ones who voted for their own gender voted more "for" the male/female of their same gender or against the male/female of the opposite.
Again my guess would be more females voted "against" the male than the other way around that's just a guess.
Then you have to look at whether those "against" votes can be defended (I've been known to defend the OJ jury)
Point is how can you know which side is "worse"

[PurityOfEssence]

16. The downtrodden get a break on bigotry

It's not that it's fair, but it IS somewhat understandable...

Many things have been said here celebrating one gender's greater nobility that would have elicited howls if the roles were reversed, and the same has happened on the subject of race. Sadly, most people grant themselves considerable leeway, while holding others to unrealistic standards. Still, just as close-mindedness and prejudice are equal-opportunity afflictions, so are fairness and a sense of decency.

Personally, I was confused today as to whether I was more of a racist or a misogynist, so I did the only sensible thing when in such a quandary: I voted for Edwards...

[CorpGovActivist]

17. The innermost kernel that explains why I'm raising this issue...

... is that I worry - very much so, in fact - that some of the stuff being said in the primary season will boomerang ("big time") in the General.

We know (for a certainty) that the GOP is picking, well, from a field that thinks diversity means a difference on how much more to cut taxes.

Whoever their ticket topper ends up being, the GOP stands to reap the support of voters who are voting out of "blowback" impulses.

An example:

"I'm tired of hearing this crap about its taking a WOMAN to clean up the House, only to see nothing get done since 2006 on issues that mattered. It went down like chalk once, and I'm not swallowing it again."

I am genuinely worried that the DNC and campaign message-makers have handed ad after ad after ad after ad to the GOP this season.

- Dave

[joshcryer]

30. So women voting for Hillary means unequivically that they hate men?

I don't understand what the fuck you're trying to say.

[CorpGovActivist]

38. No, absolutely not. Objective analysis of any dataset usually parses finer than that.

Much finer, in fact.

However, you raise the flip side of the argument, whether you intended to or not: when a man states strongly that he doesn't favor Senator Clinton's candidacy, does that mean, unequivocally, that he's a misogynist?

Because that seems to be the very broad brush some men are being tarred (and feathered) with this election cycle.

- Dave

[joshcryer]

46. Well, I don't think anyone here has really suggested that not voting for Hill makes you misogynist.

I think that sexism does play a role, however, I cannot say exactly how bad it is. Certainly women are less off than men even in our country (this is an absolute certainity in the majority of the world). You'll find it easier to find a man saying that Hillary is emotional, incapable of being tough on terrorism, etc, before you'd find a woman saying men are bad for the country.


note: I wrote "Hill" in my subject line due to subject line limits.

[ismnotwasm]

32. Who says it doesn't "exist?"

It just doesn't have political meaning. As far as practical politics, your arguments are flawed. First, this is a Democrat primary. The other "electable party"--namely Republicans, have no female to offer. In fact, they seem to be stuck somewhere in the 19th century in certain ways, That's-- help me here, you with your astute mathematics, I'm sure your have the statistics, nearly HALF the population? More?

Second, this is the very first time, the very FIRST time, a woman is a viable candidate.

It's a stunning, incredible time. A powerful change. There is a sense of wonderment to me, that either a black man or a woman could possibly be, really, really, the front runners. I'm only in my late forties. That means I was alive when it was legal to rape your wife. I was alive when blacks had to march in the streets to fight segregation. Until now, a woman in the white house, a woman who has gotten this far, a woman who is just as qualified and/or "electable" as any of the other candidates just hasn't been part of any equation.

Third, those who say race and gender don't matter are right to a point, and that point is forgetting that white men made the playground everyone else gets to play on. The playground is in serious need of repair. Women didn't break the toys, oh great poly-sci intellectual one.

Forth, and more to your point, a request. Please define "role"-- I assume you're saying women responded "yes" to a question on a survey, and you took it all the way to misandry. Interesting point of view.

(Now, I'm a Default Democrat, you know, one of those who plans to vote for the one with a "D" behind their name, yes I'm female, No, I'm not a Senator Clinton fan. The reason I'm a Default Democrat is because I'm also old enough to remember the Reagan years)

By the way, using a very recent fantasy fictional character as a "rocking" female role model is at best disingenuous, and about what I'd expect given your thread title.

[Jed Dilligan]

37. There are those who want equality,

and those who want a female-dominated society.

[AGirl]

48. and some want justice.

[Jed Dilligan]

55. And some want vengeance.

[mohc]

43. Isn't this all very hard to gauge...

...so long as the after effects of long standing (and continuing) institutional sexism (or racism) are still so prevalent? Even those basing voting decisions purely on "rational" arguments are up against the fact that many others are not. So long as prejudice keeps minorities out of their "share" of positions of authority, the pool of qualified candidates among those minorities will remain limited. The Presidency will probably be one of the last positions to overcome this. Fewer female representatives, senators, governors, etc mean fewer female candidates that "rational" people will deem qualified.

[Gormy Cuss]

44. Please source your opening quote.

"My TiVo'ed version of MSNBC's Super Tuesday coverage" is the sourcing equivalent of "I heard some guy say."

I loathe the way broadcast media post polling question results with no discussion of limitations save for the obligatory margin of error. Some polling houses are very good at implementing polls with little unknown bias; others are just people who think getting any warm body to answer the question is good enough.


It's hard to do any meaningful analysis of those numbers without understanding the context.
What was the specific question was asked? What other questions were asked of respondents at the same time, and in what order? In what mode was the polling conducted -- intercept at polling places or some other method such as RDD telephone polling? If face-to-face intercepts were done, was the result presented with any caveat about the possibility that absentee voters may be different ideologically? In California about a third of the votes were absentee and generally speaking tend to be more conservative and higher income than the whole voting. If FTF or telephone polling was used, were pollsters matched to respondents by gender? Given the sensitivity of the topic, there should have been an effort to examine whether the gender of the interviewer biased the responses.

[CorpGovActivist]

54. Ornery cuss...

... indeed. And someone who's done this before.

Every single one of your points are extremely well-taken.

I am as hobbled as you are (at least at the moment) with regard to providing more of a drilldown into any of the factors you raise.

"Please source your opening quote."

Beyond providing the precise time index of the program, and letting you judge for yourself, I can't.

All I can do is point out that there were a lot of other points after the opening quote that aren't hung on that hook.

Having candidly shrugged my shoulders on that, maybe we can move on to the points that don't hang on that hook? The scope was broader than the opening quote.

- Dave

P.S. Having taught writing sections, though, I will give you an A for one of the more sophisticated forms of end-run.

[Gormy Cuss]

58. It is hardly an end-run to suggest that without better source, the "hook" of misandry is weak.

It's worthy of replies like "men just lied."

[flpoljunkie]

50. Political analyst Sherry Bebitch Jeffe just said on MSNBC women in CA voted for HRC out of guilt.

This is really sad if women are voting for Hillary out of a sense of guilt--rather than who would be our best nominee to go up against the Republicans in November and build a working coalition to bring real change to Washington.

[CorpGovActivist]

52. If guests like her have data-driven insights...

... I don't understand why - after an appropriate time delay to ensure that "paying subscribers" get first cut at the lookie-loo - outlets like M$NBC don't post the data drilldowns and tabs.

Oh, wait. Nevermind.

That would actually let the omen-seekers at the Oracle see what the backstage looks like.



- Dave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. So are you saying that women are more likely to be stupid?

Sounds sexist.

[CorpGovActivist]

59. Non sequitur.

[Firespirit]

60. Of course misandry exists

I wear the label as a badge of honor.

When a group is mistreated for centuries, kept down, pushed into oppressive institutions (marriage), its intelligence and capabilities denigrated, and told that this is all "morally right" and to accept it -- yeah, there's going to be some resentment on behalf of that group.

It is self-serving and dishonest to suggest that the oppressed feeling contempt for the oppressor is JUST AS BAD as the reverse.

[Jed Dilligan]

62. You only have to wait 10-15 years

for your female-dominated society. College enrollment is 60% female right now. Females will dominate in all professional sectors in the near future. Males will increasingly be dropouts, prisoners, and homeless people, easy enough to kick around.

I hope you can make the world a better place than my gender seems to have done. I will gladly step aside and give you whatever tiny piece of the world I control. Hell, most of my bosses have been women anyway, some great, some rotten.

I only want to be left alone and have a government that doesn't intrude on my relationships or personal choices in any way, shape, or form, except where they harm others--and I promise you, they won't. If you can give me that you'll have the men beat.

[northzax]

61. maybe they wanted to vote for a woman

after centuries of having men around? Maybe they wanted to tell their daughters that they, too, could grow up to be president?