Damn! Let's give it to Hillary Clinton!

[Raven]

After all she's had all this experience, and she's been through the fire before and she has Bill.

So Obama just hatched out of an egg or dropped off the back of the turnip truck and...we really are longing for the Republicans to dredge up all the old stuff on her and Bill yet again and...she has Bill...we've seen lately what an asset he's been.

This is it for me...I've tried to be rational here but the place isn't conducive to rationality. I'm out! Hillary will lose this election to Crazy John McCain and with that we will lose the Supreme Court and the possibility of peace for our children and grandchildren.

Hillary Clinton is a fighter and it's my prediction that she will fight and lose and that will put another Republican in the WH and set women back for decades.

So, let's hand it to Hillary. She has 35 years of experience in sitting on Boards and practicing corporate law and presiding over a health care defeat that set all of back a decade...you folks should talk to some women who do more than she has done in a year but don't pad their resumes.

I'm one of those women who struggled to make it on my own, was a single parent and a successful businessperson...on my own...who happens to think that one's personal ambition is less important that the good of the whole. I'll stack my resume up against hers anyday (as I'm sure many people could do) and, if my only govermental accomplishment was a failed health care proposal and "standing by my man", I'd step aside for the good of the party and the good of the country.

You folks mark my words...she will go down to defeat and, with that, this will be a different country. Now I've said it. I don't expect anyone to change their minds with this post...just think about it:

John McCain: War Hero
Hillary Clinton: Corporate Lawyer and wife of Bill

John McCain doesn't have to do any heavy lifting at all.

[TexasObserver]

1. Well said, Raven!!

thank you

[Nedsdag]

20. Indeed.

ITA!

[Fredda Weinberg]

2. The American people don't want a 100 year war or a warmed over

Raygun. Don't drink the Kool Aid.

[Big Blue Marble]

29. You have a heighten sense of the American Electorate that I do not share.

They voted for Reagan. They voted for Bush I and Bush II twice.
And you are not worried about McCain.

I assure you, we see him much differently than the average voter will after they
spin him for us for the next nine months.

I think as Ari Fleisher said on CNN last night, they pray for Hillary as their opposition candidate.
She is the only thing that would unify that sinking ship and they know it.

[StevieM]

3. I have no doubt that if Hillary wins she will be a great president in American history (eom)

x

[RaleighNCDUer]

35. IF

The biggest fucking word in the dictionary.

[Bucky]

4. I'll bet I can figure out who you're voting for in just three--no, make it two--guesses

[Raven]

15. I voted for Edwards in NH and I will vote the Democratic ticket in

November even if it's suicide. If Hillary is the Party's pick, I'll vote for her and hope for the best.

[terrya]

5. I hardly think this will be a cakewalk for John McCain.

Ridiculous. McCain is a cheerleader for the Bush Adminstration. Right down the line.

I really don't see this huge groundswell for support for that crabby old man the Republicans are offering. Like it was mentioned last night, McCain is Bob Dole redux. And we saw how well that turned out.

[katty]

6. Mac's claim to fame w/be: "I was a contender" - that's it

[Donnachaidh]

7. someone needs a thicker skin

Think recent posts are bad? Y'all will need a waaaaahhhhmbulance before the end of the summer. :rofl:

[Danieljay]

8. I believe you are correct... She'll lose the general election (IMHO)

That being said, I will vote for her and support her if she wins the nomination, and then try and reframe from the "I told you so" should she lose the general. ( I hope not )

[SoFlaJet]

9. and THEY will be the ones to blame raven

when "their Gal" finagles her way into power and then loses in November to a whackjob with his finger on the button singing "bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" and women's choice to have an abortion is gone-I don't want to read them bitching for the better part of the next decade about all the republicans agendas being shoved down our throats-remember YOU Clinton-ites had a choice and went for the wrong one and we all will pay the price

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. I Can Understand Where You're Coming From, But I Think You're Incorrect.

I think you'll be quite pleasantly surprised in the end of it all, in fact.

And as much as you want me to mark your words, I want you to mark mine. :)

[Raven]

17. God! I will be happy to mark your words. I hope you're right with

all my heart!

[hfojvt]

23. speaking of marked words, I made a similar prediction way back when

and marked it thus:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/63

[hfojvt]

26. here's another good one to mark

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=111601#111652

Not meant specifically for you, just a salutory blast from the past.

[pberq]

11. The Oligarchy Has Picked Its Candidate!

Thanks to babylonsister for the original post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=328345

The Oligarchy Has Picked Its Candidate!
by Stephen Fleischman | Dec 27 2007



The wreckage caused by the Republicans and the Bush Administration is even too much for the corporate oligarchy to take. Although Republicans have usually been their favored party, they now want a Democrat in the White House and they want that Democrat to be Hillary Clinton.

The Hillary-Bill combo has worked for the oligarchy before and will work for it again. They've been tried, tested, and vetted to carry forward the oligarch agenda. Our two-party system pays close attention to the dressing of democracy; there always has to be a choice, a Tweedledee and a Tweedledum and always a way to vote for a lesser of two evils -- which, unfortunately, becomes the evil of two lessers. Through the strategy of triangulation, the Clintons have achieved the strangulation of the democratic wing of the Democratic Party. Where are you, Dick Morris, now that the Clintons need you again?

The running dogs (the fourth estate) have gotten the message and you can hear the slow build of their howl. They can stage a mighty convincing horse race. But the election is already being fixed, as it was stolen in 2000 and 2004.

That's capitalism, for you. Its nature is to show the appearance of democracy, masking the actuality of oligarchic control, while robbing the working class of the surplus value it creates. The Clintons have proven they can do the oligarchy's dirty work when called upon to do it. They will get the prize money for services rendered.

So, let's follow the money.

The Military Industrial Complex is a Member of the Oligarchy (MOTO). This year, the war industry, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics, to name a few, has shelled out more money to Democratic candidates than to Republicans, and Hillary has gotten the lion's share of that. The manipulators of power always hedge their bets. They play both sided against the middle.

more...

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/11759

[hedgehog]

19. Lest we forget; the Enron Debacle and the California Energy Crisis

(perhaps better called the Great Californian Rip-Off) began under Bill Clinton. The currentsub-prime mortgage crisis owes a lot to the repeal of Glass-Steagall Act under Clinton. Deregulation, anyone?

[pberq]

44. So, let's follow the money.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/11759

. . .

The Military Industrial Complex is a Member of the Oligarchy (MOTO). This year, the war industry, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics, to name a few, has shelled out more money to Democratic candidates than to Republicans, and Hillary has gotten the lion's share of that. The manipulators of power always hedge their bets. They play both sided against the middle.

"Mrs. Clinton has also emerged as Wall Street's favorite." says Leonard Doyle, Washington correspondent for The Independent, "Investment bankers have opened their wallets in unprecedented numbers for the New York senator and, in the process, dumped their earlier favorite, Barack Obama."

Big Pharma and the Health Insurance Industry (MOTO) has already socked it to 'em. Even though you never heard the words, "single payer" even whispered, back in '93 when the Clintons were faking a Universal Health Plan, the "industry" dropped Harry and Louise, characters in a TV commercial, on them that exposed their plan as a "Rube Goldberg" that would never work. Now that Hillary is running for president, she is tinkering with another Hillarycare plan. This time she is making sure the plan won't offend the industry. So the industry has opened its "alms" to her.

According to the California Nurses Association and the National Nurses Organizing Committee, the healthcare industry (which includes drug and insurance companies) spent more that $2.2 billion on federal lobbying over the past decade. Senator Hillary Clinton (D) and Senator John McCain (R) collected 40% of the overall total.

[Stephanie]

12. She can't beat the Obama surge.

Two weeks ago he was expected to win 2 or 3 Super Tuesday states. Last night he won 14. He won more delegates. She's still alive thanks to Cali but she's on the downturn. Nearly half the states still left to vote and the money's still pouring in for him while her fatcat donors are maxed out. He has an army of youthful volunteers. She only has as many as she can hire. She will litigate MI and FL just as Rove litigated FL, the Clintons learned from the master, but she will lose that argument. We're winning. Stay strong.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

27. yes

[sandnsea]

13. I hear you

How do we get more women to see things the way we do??

All the women in my family made their own choices, never took guff. Is that the difference? I don't need another woman to "live through", I'm quite confident in my own steam, thank you very much.

:shrug:

[Blue State Bandit]

14. It's a depressing thing to know.

All I heard from Clinton's speech last night was "what I'll do".

I didn't here that from Obama. It was all about "we" and "us".

I like the fact that Obama wants "Me" to contribute beyond my meager donation, to serve my country, my community, my environment.

I will be a depressed voter if i have to vote for Clinton in the generals.

And when she looses to McCain, I'll be leaving this country, cause I REFUSE TO LIVE HERE UNDER ONE MORE DAY OF REPUBLICAN REPRESSION!

[DS1]

16. Double A+ post

[Whisp]

18. edited: misread your post!

good one, Raven.

:blush:

[cottonseed]

21. If she can hold off Janine Piro, McCain should be a cakewalk.

I've been told she's battle tested and ready to take em on!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

31. Are you kidding me? Jeanine Pirro is a trainwreck.

I personally know a cousin of hers who says that she's got skeletons and shady associations up the wazoo. She's a walking indictment.

You are kidding, right?

[cottonseed]

34. I was kidding.

Not good with the sarcasm button. Oh, and yes, Piro is a train wreck. Hell, I don't even think Nancy Grace has her on anymore.

[hfojvt]

22. so basically you are saying of the Clintons

"nevermore"

Can I quote you on that?

I talked to a Republican running for the state senate here and he wears tinfoil about the mighty Clinton machine. He thinks they will arrange to have Bloomberg run and that will allow Clinton to win just like Perot's candidacy did back in the 1990s.

It's hard to predict the future, and you can always come up with a scary scenario either way. My problem with the Clintons is more of a DLC vs. progressive thing. Even if the Democrats win with Clinton leadership, which they did not in the 1990s, they do so by morphing more and more into moderate Republicans.

[Raven]

25. Slim pickings! I think I'd take a moderate republican Democrat

over McCain if that person could win and I thought they would make decent Supreme Court appointments. I just don't think Hillary can win...and, obviously, I'm not taken with her.

[hfojvt]

28. Thom Hartmann quotes Harry Truman

"When voters are given a choice between voting for a Republican, or a Democrat who acts like a Republican, they'll vote for the Republican every time." ("Screwed: The Undeclared war against the middle class" p. 203)

[Cha]

24. Rec'd! The big downer

about my senator hilary who has shown nothing but political cowardice since Oct 2002 and no leadership is that she and bil will make it back to the whitehouse killing so much good in their path that the country will again be all about the dlc corporations and hil&bil..it's really all about them.

[Vinca]

30. I'm afraid you're right, Raven and this country can't withstand

another Republican in charge. That said, I'm still optimistic Barack will end up with the largest number of delegates. It comes down to what the superdelegates decide to do. They can unify the party or split the party.

[VotesForWomen]

32. uh, if the media decides to revoke O's free pass, mccain would beat him easily. at least we know

hillary clinton has never had a free pass.

[EFerrari]

33. What you said, Raven.

She doesn't just come with baggage. She comes with truckloads of entire households of movable goods. :(

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. The only thing worse for the Democratic party than Hillary losing to McCain

would be Hillary winning against McCain.

Hillary and the DLC will destroy the democrats.

[JAbuchan08]

47. Good post. It's not that HIllary is not "different" from the radical Republican right

it's that she's not different enough to make a difference.

[paulk]

37. maybe you could lay out a case for why Obama would

have a better chance. Especially against that "war hero" thing.

Maybe you could add a section devoted to the "wife of Bill" as a negative, you know, and explain how a guy with an 85+% approval rating among Democrats hurts her.

It would beat this fear mongering nonsense you've posted.

[Raven]

41. "Fear mongering nonsense" is a nice way to put it when

someone expresses an opinion. If you don't I've stated a concern shared by many well-meaning folks about Hillary, you haven't chosen to listen.

[paulk]

42. your opinion is more of the same stuff I've been hearing

from Obama supporters since day one. "Supporters" is perhaps the wrong word, since mostly it seems to be all about why I shouldn't vote for Hillary rather than why I should vote for Obama.

I guess I expected better from some of the posters on here, including yourself.

[RaleighNCDUer]

49. You might want to check that "85% approval" stuff

in the light of his antics in SC. Bill's lost a LOT of good will - most of it undeserved in the first place. The Monica thing gave him a lot of sympathy from Dems for the unwarranted persecution, but the fact is it also distracted Dems from the ramifications of NAFTA, the Telecom bill, welfare reform, and all those other Republican initiatives he pushed through which we've been dealing with for the past 7 years.

[paulk]

50. you must be talking about all those independent and

Republicans who are crossing over to vote for Obama. They don't seem to like him much. That and all the Obama kids who've swallowed the Republican hit job on the Clintons that's been going on for the last 16 years - they didn't experience the nineties, so I guess they don't know better.

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. So you think that NAFTA and the Telecom bill and the Republican

welfare reform bill and the covering up of Reagan/Bush crimes were GOOD for the Democratic party?

I've been voting Democratic for 35 years, and I voted for Clinton, twice, and now I'm done with him. He's betrayed progressives and the Democratic base more than one too many times.

I don't know if Obama would be any better, but at least he did have the decency to decline the DLC's invite to their republican-lite party.

[paulk]

52. I think a lot of people are incredibly naive

when it comes to politics. Politics is a process where the end result often doesn't match up to well with what was desired - because there are always at least two sides and a constantly changing set of circumstances. There is no black and white.

I supported NAFTA because I believed it was the best way to raise up the economy of Mexico, something which would have benefited our nation in the long run. And it may have worked out if Gore, who was as responsible for it as Clinton, had been allowed to become President. Or if China hadn't become an economic force (and source for cheap labor and goods that undercut the Mexican market) so rapidly. Or if we hadn't had eight years of a Republican administration with no interest in fixing what was wrong with NAFTA.

"NAFTA" has just become a code word separated from the actuality. It's something that can be laid at Bill Clinton's feet without having to make an argument that involves actually knowing anything about the subject.

The same with the welfare reform bill. The country wanted welfare reform. Not just Republicans - but many Democrats also. The Welfare Reform we got was a compromise with a Republican Congress and was certainly better than what we would have gotten under a Republican administration. And once again - we've had eight years of Republican control now where the flaws in the compromise are not going to be fixed.

I'm not going to defend the Telecom Bill. That was a huge error. But, I don't expect perfection from politicians and once again, I believe a Democratic President would have worked to fix what was wrong where the Republicans are perfectly happy with the way things are.

I've been voting for 35 years also and, looked at as a whole the Clinton Presidency, despite it's failures, was the most successful presidency of my lifetime. By far.


-----------------------------


Obama may have declined the DLC tag, but I see that as political calculation more than anything else. His voting record doesn't show him to be much different on the issues than any "DLCer".

All I expect from politicians is a modicum of competency. I also realize that this country is not going to elect a progressive.

Clinton gave us eight years without a major war and managed the most successful economy of my lifetime. His successes far outweigh his failures, AFAIC.

I know that HRC can manage the job of the Presidency. Obama - he is an inspirational figure - but what I get from him are a lot of promises about what he's going to do with no real idea of how he's going to get there or instances of how he has gotten there in the past.

[Strathos]

38. If we don't support the democratic nominee

we are truly fucked. Go and find your high horse and sit there, but know that if all liberals don't come together and support the democratic nominee, it will be worse than it has been under Bush.

[Raven]

39. No "high horse" here, I said I would vote for the nominee.n/t

[JVS]

40. Wow Raven. You're going to get some major flames for that one.

Thanks for having the courage to speak out!

[rodeodance]

43. You have bought in the FEAR put out by Obamababies and RW.

[Annces]

45. Why do some women have to compare themselves to her

She has her own individuality, not tied to you. And there will never be the right time for a woman to run. The first one will break a lot of barriers.

[Raven]

53. I think most people relate to others based on their own experience...

human nature, I think.

[Annces]

56. Well I think it feeds into that whole idea of not tolerating other people

Because if we all basically compare others to ourselves and according to our own personal standards, and personal histories, then we don't see the other person for who they are. And how just under the thin veneer of political correctness, people are very judgmental and prejudiced.

"Why doesn't she cook as well as me, or have as many children, or why doesn't she wear dresses instead of pants" etc, etc.

Then when a person is really different, like from another country, we pretend we are tolerating them.

I don't think it is human nature. It is something we can choose to do or not, but it is a way to have a narrow view of others when you compare their lives to yours because they are of the same sex.

[City Lights]

46. You summed up my thoughts exactly, Raven.

And :yourock: for having the courage to say it.

:patriot:

[KoKo]

48. I can't be that doomful about the whole thing....because we need to build a new party

and we can only do that when we don't have to keep putting out Repug Fires. Now, you would say...we still have the Repug fires...they are burning that bunch of feckless DINO Dems in House & Congress who are so afraid of Repugs they can't stand up to their failed policies.

So...we are faced with choices that we didn't choose to have. Those of us who have been here since "Selection 2000" who know the issues and know where the bodies are buried with the money bags.

[workinclasszero]

54. Rush Limbaugh...

...prays every night that Hillary is the dem choice for President.

She will raise the corpse of the rethug party from its grave like zombies to inflict more wars and destruction on ourselves and our children.

Obama they fear like a light going on in a dark room. They want to scuttle like cockroaches back into the safety of the darkness and re-fight the Clinton Wars of the 90's, their glory days.

Damn why cant people let go of the past and build a better tomorrow??

I don't get it.

[LulaMay]

55. Way to take down another woman. No matter what you think, it doesn't help us

to promote such ridiculous competition between women. Your successful, she's successful. She's not an empty vessel or robot who hasn't been successful on her own, with her own brain. Are you really going to try and argue that she, or any woman people accuse of 'riding a man's coat-tails' is a fraud? How do you explain all the voters who recognize her intelligence and achievements? She'd have to be pretty brilliant to pull that one off. Your 'arguement' makes no sense either way.

How do you think your attitude helps women, or do you only care about yourself? What status do you think this garners you? And among what segment of the population? Give it up, most men overall still don't give a damn about your resume' or how you rose to success....but they do like to see us slam each other down. My advice: try hanging out with the ones who find the jello wrestling more repugnant than amusing.