Burning question for Kerry Supporters

[Voltaire]

Mr. Kerry has been graded as the most liberal member of the Senate. That much is trumpeted here ad nauseum. Seems to me that on CBS a couple Sundays ago and via comments from his staff even more recently, he is running away from that label. Now I ask you, as a liberal, exactly how am I supposed to get with the program and vote for him when he isn't willing to state the obvious, own it and be proud of it. This is EXACTLY what Governor Dean was talking about in his campaign before he was summarily executed for saying it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. You're not supposed to 'get with the program'

You are supposed to vote for the candidate you believe in.

[vi5]

2. The same reason bush had to caveat "conservative"...

...with "compassionate". The majority of Americans do NOT regard themselves as fully liberal or fully conservative. So for either candidate on either side to thoroughly embrace one label or the other is tantamount to alienating a large segment of voters (even ones who may agree with the candidate on all specific issues but don't like to think of themselves as being one extreme or the other).

Semantics will be the death of us all.

[phantom power]

3. vote your conscience

Ultimately, you should vote your conscience. However, voting your conscience should ideally take pragmatism into account. Under our current electoral system, there's very little chance for a third party to get elected.

Starting from that observation, the following strategy seems best to me:

1) vote for the "two-party" candidate (currently, that would be Democrat or Republican) which is most closely alligned with your views.

2) do your best to influence that candidate, so as to convince them to be even *more* closely alligned in the future.

3) longer-term, support some kind of change to our electoral system to make it more multi-party friendly. IRV is one approach. A parliamentary system is another. Personally, I think IRV has a better chance of success, since it would require fewer structural changes to our current system.

4) try growing a third party from the ground up. Local first, then state, then eventually national.

[Melodybe]

5. vote your conscience and vote dem in 2004

Getting rid of this sexist, racist, elitist, homophobic, bunch of warmongering assholes is more important than anything.

I was green in 2000 and may return to the party after Nov. but we all have to vote dem this time around.

[sangh0]

4. "This is EXACTLY what Governor Dean was talking about ..."

This is EXACTLY what Governor Dean was talking about in his campaign before he was summarily executed for saying it

There's your answer

[blm]

6. Why embrace a LABEL? Let him be who he is without a label.

I say he's a liberal Democrat just because that's what his record shows, but his record is complex in some areas. And that's the point that he made. His record speaks for itself. Dean NEEDED to seem as if he was more liberal because his actual record WAS that of a centrist and he wanted to appeal more to the left.

Would you label Kerry a conservative just because he was for a balanced budget? Isn't that giving conservatives credit they don't deserve? Liberals are for fiscal responsibility but false labeling credits conservatives.

[sangh0]

9. Because it Oh-so-progressive to put people in boxes

and categories. God forbid we have judge a candidate by their positions on the issues, and their record. That's even harder than math!

[Voltaire]

7. How wonderful it would be. . .

If folks could speak the truth in this country. I have never seen such a thing where you could not say what you believed. Liberals gave this country all the things that are good about it. Running from the label seems to me to be a move that lacks conviction. Just because the Republicans hide what they are behind words should not mean we have to do the same thing. That lets them control the debate. Don't know about you folks but I am sick and goddamned tired of them controlling the debate.

[Killarney]

8. Think about it...

If Kerry ran around saying I'm a liberal! I'm a liberal! And owned it... he'd get what... 20% of the general election vote? At most.

This is politics. 40% of the country identifies themselves as moderate independents, 30% republicans, and 30% democrats (ranging from left to moderate). Yes, we all know he's incredibly liberal (due to his record), but he cannot tout that right now.

Bush didn't tout that he was a right-wing facist. He said he was a compassionate conservative. He basically ran as a moderate. He won. And then he began he right-wing facist crap.

Don't worry. Kerry has a liberal record and as president he will continue on that route. But he has to get into the White House to make a difference!

It just comes down to politics.

[ODBPROS]

10. So it's ok to lie......

If we know that he's lying, and the truth benefits us?

[Killarney]

13. Do you like losing?

I, for one, want to WIN this election.

Liberals know what's best for this country and will lead the country in the best direction, but we need to get in power first! We have no power right now. Republicans control the WH and Congress. We need to play politics to get in power and then we can lead the country in the best direction.

And for the record, no one is lying. Show me where he is.

[sangh0]

15. So it's OK to stereotype people

by attaching labels to them?

[Tinoire]

32. Who is "us"? Please clarify. n/t

[hippiechick]

28. ".... as president he will continue on that route"

I wish I shared your conviction.

Methinks once the Good Senator takes the Oath Of Office, he will become as pragmatic as the last Democratic President, Wm. Jefferson Clinton, who in his second term (for a variety of reasons) leaned right and kissed A LOT of GOP ass.


:hippie:

[On the Road]

11. I Hate to Say It, But . . .

I'm not sure it would be a good idea for Kerry to enthusiastically embrace the term "liberal." It means something different to many swing voters from what it what might mean for us.

"Liberal" is being used as an epithet for someone who believes in:

- Government spending as a solution to all domestic problems,
- Caring for criminals more than the victims of crime
- Taxing without restraint
- Driving personal faith into hiding

and a whole of other garbage. It's a grotesque charicature, and most people might not consciously accept it. But whenever the epithet sticks to a candidate, it tends to have a negative effect on public perception. You can no more proclaim yourself a liberal than a Marxist in this country.

Kerry is correct -- liberal ideas DO tend to be mainstream. That's not a bad answer. All he has to do is neutralize it as an the issue. I'll start worrying if he starts to disown his core beliefs.

[Voltaire]

14. Then let him explain liberalism

And what it has truly meant for Americans throughout the history of this country. Just because bad people have made it a bad word does not make it a bad thing. And if we cannot do it in this polarized election I don't know when we can. Liberals gave you the weekend. Conservatives have given you global unrest for profit. What is bad about making that point? Saying its just politics merely perpetuates the nonsense.

[On the Road]

16. Yes, It's Nonsense, But That Isn't the Most Important Fight Now

There's nothing magical about the word "liberalism." I personally don't care about terminology. Kerry can characterize himself with other words that describe his beliefs. I would only worry if Kerry started to define himself as a conservative or Bush-lite candidate, and I doubt that will happen.

Kerry saw what happenned to Dukakis, both when he avoided the "charge" of liberalism and when he belatedly embraced it. He needs another tack, and saying he's "mainstream" is not a bad way to do it.

[Voltaire]

19. I guess my point is

If they are gonna try to tar him with it anyway, his answer should be GODDAMNED RIGHT I'M A LIBERAL. Then explain why. A little pro-active aggressiveness with this will sway voters who use their heads for more than a hat rack.

[On the Road]

25. Well, Kerry Has to be Very Careful about How He Does It

Admitting something you're being accused of can be dangerous even if it's not a bad thing. Any misstep is going to be pounced on and described as some type of terrible self-destructive gaffe.

Regardless of terminology, it's important for Kerry to instill hope, idealism, and a sense of fairness. Clinton was able to do that without falling into any Republican language traps.

[Voltaire]

26. Hope, idealism and a sense of fairness

Are inherent in liberalism. I don't see where a good candidate would have a problem getting that across.

[On the Road]

31. He Shouldn't Have a Hard Time

but Kerry has to watch the way he's characterized.

Personally, I heard hope and idealism whenever I heard Howard Dean speak. But fairly or not, most voters didn't get that impression.

[nofurylike]

21. yes. i think us all wanting to survive

is pretty mainstream, even if the mainstream doesn't see that.

it's just time for kerry to demonstrate that it's come to that now -
survival or not. the entire planet's.

i hope he does that.


peace

[LSparkle]

12. What's wrong with being "generous"

as in a "liberal" dollop of sour cream on a baked potato, or open-minded? I'd much rather be seen that way than as a "conformist" (i.e., conservative). We need to direct the Repukes to their dictionaries when they start throwing out these labels.

[ODBPROS]

22. He doesn't need to embrace the term liberal.....

he needs to embrace the message that he's "not Bush." This is the best label he can slap on. While the word liberal is antiquated and perverse, for whatever reason, more people will appeal to him being not being Bush, than they will him being himself.

[Warren Stuart]

17. He is the best of all possible candidates

Sorry, I'm being bad today.

[nofurylike]

18. to be literal

wanting ideological democracy to survive; to want the planet to survive...
is not actually liberal

when compared to the radical *shrubist agenda of theocratic oligarchy, and global environmental cataclysm.


peace

[cosmicdot]

20. if you say a candidate is not liberal ... records and other things ...

... will be cited to say: see, the epitome of liberal - no further analysis, thoughts, etc., are needed; case closed ... the citing will say the candidate is the most liberal of liberals ...

... if you query why a candidate is running away from being liberal, rhetorical questions of boxing someone with labels will be raised ...

... like clock-work, a tag-team will come to trample your concerns, thoughts, etc.

What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal." - President John F. Kennedy

[nofurylike]

23. good point. others said too:

it's important for kerry to define what liberal is.


peace

[Voltaire]

24. Perfect. That is what I was looking for.

JFK wants to be JFK then I think he should borrow from JFK.

[K-Spar]

27. Who cares...

I don't like labels either. The only label I like is the "D" in Senator John Kerry - D, Mass.

[hippiechick]

29. Then why did you bother to use up the bandwidth ?

:shrug:


:hippie:

[K-Spar]

30. ?

Use it up like this?

[IndianaGreen]

33. Zell Miller also has a "D" label

as does Evan Bayh.

Are we now going tribal? My tribe right or wrong?

May I remind you that Vietnam was a Democratic war up until the time Nixon was elected.

[sangha]

34. Zell Miller isn't running for Pres

and he's not about to get the Dem nomination. If, by some horrendous miracle, he should get the nom, I'm sure many would reconsider ABB

[IndianaGreen]

36. I am sure that many more would vote for Zell on account of the "D"

Republicans don't have a monopoly on group-think.

[sangha]

37. If you say so

I'm sure it's true. Your authority on these matters is unquestionable.

Republicans don't have a monopoly on group-think.

That's true. Dean still has his supporters

[PVnRT]

41. Still can't get over Dean, eh?

Must be sad living in the past.

[sangh0]

42. I'm afraid he's going to win the nomination

I hear so many people saying that "Dean has already won"

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

48. kick

[sangha]

50. kick

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=49540#49573

[sangha]

35. That's a burning question?

:shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

38. If Dean was saying he was a liberal

then he was 'summarily executed' for not undrstanding the definition of the word.

[KittyWampus]

39. When Did Dean Say He Was A Liberal?

When was he summarily executed?

[sangh0]

40. Dean said something like

"If balancing the budget while providing children with health care is liberal, then I'm a liberal. If blah-blah-blah is liberal, then I'm a liberal..." and so on.

Not exactly what you were elooking for, I know.

[littlejoe]

43. They call it politics.

[rucky]

45. This is the best of all possible worlds.

It may not have been just a few weeks ago, but it is now.

[NightNurse]

46. As an Eagles fan......

you should understand this, Right?

[NightNurse]

47. Drive a STAKE in this THREAD

:nuke:

[AgadorSparticus]

49. nightnurse, I second the motion.