Whatever happened to Hillary's bill to ban flag burning? Is that still a big issue for her?

[Faygo Kid]

I had forgotten about it, frankly, but I wasn't too thrilled about that as a priority for her a few years ago, before her second Senate bid. Even then it was seen as positioning her for the 2008 race. http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=5078

So, is that still a priority for her? Do her supporters think that's still a dandy idea? Haven't heard much about it, but she was a cosponsor.

[Vadem]

1. A co-sponsor with John McCain! .... n/t

[onenote]

42. got a link for that?

Not on any of the lists of co-sponsors or supporters I've seen.

[ursi]

2. I just about choked when I read this headline!! Forgot all about this serious thing!

Voted for Iraq and wanted to stop flag burning. Hmmmm.

[Whisp]

9. PRIORITIES.

defined.

[Faygo Kid]

10. Delete.

I misread your intent and thought you were being sarcastic. Sorry.

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. She was wrong on that, but it helped blunt the push for a Constitutional Amendent

banning flag burning instead. And no it is by no means a priority for her. With Democrats in control of Congress a constitutional amendment of this matter ain't going anywhere.

[kikiek]

4. Voted NO on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Jun 2006)

[Faygo Kid]

5. Cosponsor of bill to criminalize flag burning.

Fact. I'm supposed to applaud her because she wants to criminalize a First Amendment act, but not put it in the Constitution?

Not. Worst sort of pandering. If she gets the nomination, she is sure to use it to buttress her "centrist" position. But it was wrong. Has she disavowed it?

[kikiek]

6. This was after that. And her rating is ultra liberal. She isn't centrist.

[Faygo Kid]

7. I never claimed she supported a Constitutional amendment. Did she withdraw her bill sponsorship?

Does she still support criminalizing flag burning?

I have seen nothing indicating that she has changed her position, that burning the flag as a form of political expression should incur criminal penalties.

Maybe she should be asked about it.

[Stephanie]

11. That was a Classic Clinton Triangulation

If you are RW, she can tell you she sponsored legislation to ban flag burning. If you are liberal, she can say she opposed the Constitutional amendment. Once again, she has it both ways. Does Hillary Clinton have any principles at all? Seriously.

[onenote]

43. ummm...You realize that Obama voted for the same legislation?

Or you just conveniently ignoring that piece of info?

[onenote]

34. You realize that Obama voted for the same bill, don't you?

It was smart for Obama, smart for Clinton and smart for the others who concocted a great strategy to save us from a much worse Constitutional amendment.

[Cameron27]

35. Thanks

[onenote]

39. You're welcome.

As I've said many times, I'm voting for Obama on Tuesday but if HRC gets the nomination I'll support her every bit as vigorously as I'll support Obama if he get it.

What I won't sit idly by and watch is distortions by supporters of either candidate. ANd this is a classic case.

BTW, here's a link to the vote in case anyone wants it.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00188

[TexasObserver]

8. It's too bad Hillary doesn't know that burning is how you dispose of a flag

it's the law

[HeraldSquare212]

12. Just another piece of legislation she couldn't get into law.

I guess all the experience hasn't paid off much.

[paulk]

13. as others have pointed out

the bill was introduced to blunt the Republican effort toward a flag burning amendment, knowing full well that it wouldn't pass.

Senate manuevering can be pretty complicated, it's why Senators have such a hard time getting elected President. Votes can be taken out of context. Especially by people with an agenda.

[Faygo Kid]

14. That's not what she said at the time. She could have stood square for the First Amendment.

This wasn't just a vote, it was COSPONSORSHIP of a bill to criminalize the political statement of burning a flag as a form of protest. Sure, I am an Obama supporter, but this is totally legit to bring up. And I hope for a better answer, because she made no reference to "Senate manuevering" at the time.

[goodgd_yall]

20. Her intention was not to prevent protest

"Her aides said there is no contradiction in being against the flag-burning amendment and for a flag-burning law.

"They say she believes a federal law would not trample First Amendment rights because, like laws against cross burnings, it would ban flag desecration that is deemed to pose a threat to others — and not acts of political expression that are protected by the First Amendment."

[arewenotdemo]

25. "deemed to pose a threat to others" WTF does that mean?

Someone might try to rescue the flag and wind up burned?

Just today she told a high school audience that Senator McCain wants to keep the troops in Iraq for 100 years! But she will "bring them home".

This from "We've been in Korea for 50 years. We're still in Okinawa." Hillary.

No. Fucking. Integrity.

[goodgd_yall]

30. If you believe Hillary has not integrity

Then you'll have to hold that same belief about everyone in Congress. I'm sure there's not one there who has voted 100% along your own principles. Obama, if he stays in the Senate long enough, will also accrue votes where some Democrats, including yourself, are going to be majorly pissed off.

[onenote]

36. so are you upset with Obama for participating in the same maneuvering?

I'm actually proud of him. Shows he's got smarts. WIsh some of my fellow Obama supporters had some.

[Yossariant]

15. Ya might as well be explaining to your dog. Frustrating. They are drunk on the KoolAid.

[paulk]

16. I'm hoping that it's still worth the effort

maybe some undecideds will read it and look into it a little deeper.

[Faygo Kid]

18. OK, go. Put up or shut up. Let's hear your analysis of her cosponsorship.

Reality based would be good this time. No Kool-Aid comments, just tell me if you support Hillary's cosponsorship of a bill to criminalize burning the flag as a form of political protest. And tell me why. I can post dozens of articles from 2005-6 about her cosponsorship, but that shouldn't be necessary for a bright person like you. Was that a good idea? Is it a good idea? Should we enact laws limiting the First Amendment like this one? Should she have cosponsored this bill?

Spare me the Kool-Aid comments. This is a legitimate issue, and you know it.

[Yossariant]

22. If you can't comprehend # 13, and apparently you cannot, you don't get it and you're not

ever going to get it. :crazy:

And I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell ya!

[Faygo Kid]

24. I already responded to that, and to you.

Enjoy. You don't get off that easy here.

[Yossariant]

27. Your response demonstrated your lack of comprehension. That's why I mentioned it.

[goodgd_yall]

17. So true

Every bit of legislature is examined and often out of context. The tactical considerations are never looked at and no attempt to understand the tactics involved is made.

[Faygo Kid]

21. What are you talking about? Why can't I get a straight answer here?

There is nothing here "out of context." She cosponsored a bill to ban flag burning. You speak of her tactical considerations. OK, what were they? She expressed nothing "tactical" at the time other than to ban burning the flag. There was no danger of a Constitutional amendment passing Congress, let alone two-thirds of the state.

OK, go. It's your turn. You challenged me, and now I would like your explanation of both her tactical considerations and tactics.

[Stephanie]

26. Allow me. As in all things, HRC was thinking only of HRC's political amibitions.

She did not want to take a position AGAINST the First Amendment, because that would tee off the progressive Democratic base that she needed to secure the nomination.

She did not want to take a position that seemed to be FOR flag-burning, because that would tee off the wingnuts she hoped to win over in the general election.

SO, in classic Clintonian fashion, she found a way to OPPOSE it and SUPPORT it AT THE SAME TIME.

"I oppose flag burning. In fact I introduced legislation to ban it."

"I support the First Amendment, even if that means allowing flag burning. I voted against the amendment to ban it."

And she never has to answer for it, because the legislation she introduced is meaningless, being as it's un-Constitutional.

How's that for an answer?

[onenote]

41. and since Obama voted for the same bill, I guess all same arguments apply to him

Unless you're saying she (and Barbara Boxer, among others) was insincere in proposing the legislation but Obama actually wanted it to pass.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00188

Looking forward to your response.

[goodgd_yall]

28. I didn't challenge you

I was commenting generally about the downside of senators running for president.

Personally, I definitely don't support an amendment to the Constitution banning flag burning. I can accept that certain legislation might be needed to thwart more restrictive legislation.

[Stephanie]

29. Except that it would be un-Constitutional

the legislaton was just CYA for Clinton.

[goodgd_yall]

31. It might have been

a CYA for the Democratic Party. Legislators sometimes act on behalf of their party rather than themselves.

[onenote]

37. any time you want to address Obama's vote in favor of this bill, I'm all ears

[onenote]

40. Crickets....

[onenote]

45. crickets sure are loud here this morning

[paulk]

46. one of Obama's biggest liabilities is his supporters

well, some of them anyway.

At my precinct caucus two Obama votes switched to Clinton between the straw vote and the final vote, and I'm sure the reason was the long, rambling, and largely incoherent support speech given by a young Obama supporter.

[Deja Q]

19. She also put in legislation over the violence in computer games.

And I agree with her on that.

Not keen on flag burning, but let's get real - the candidates need to have details about the economy and the bigger issues. Anything else seems irrelevant...

[pdxmom]

23. That particular piece of legislation is when I decided I couldn't be a

Clinton supporter. Flag burning as a Federal crime? Are you kidding me? There is absolutely no nuance for this and I was appalled when it happened and I'm still appalled by it.

And for those that are arguing it was "tactical"...that's bull. No flag burning amendment was going into the Constitution. They bring it up every year or so and it goes down in flames, so to speak.

[onenote]

33. are you an Obama supporter? Because he voted for it too.

It was a brilliant strategic move and kudos to Clinton, Obama, Kennedy, Kerry, Dodd, Leahy and the other Democrats who worked together to use this bill to fend off a much worse constitutional amendment.

[onenote]

32. The bill that was supported by Boxer, Dodd, kennedy, and OBAMA? It was defeated

Get a grip. Clinton backed a bill to criminalize flag burning as part of a strategic move by a number of liberal Democrats to derail a constitutional amendment.

Joining Clinton in voting for the bill: Boxer, Kerry, Kennedy, Dodd, Kerry, Leahy, and, yes, Barrack Obama.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00188

It was a smart move and kudos to all of those listed who participated in a strategy that helped fend off a constitutional amendment.

[mtnsnake]

38. Reality is that this kind of effort by her will only come back to help her in the General Election

Thanks for reminding me :)

[onenote]

44. I guess you guys don't want to talk about this anymore

Being wrong on DU means never having to say "I'm stupid".