A destructive message; one that I will not soon forget.

[FrenchieCat]

As a DUer who joined DU in 2003, I have had many conversation with other DUers over the past 5 years in which we shared our frustrations over and over again about how we were being forced to support politicians who took us for granted. We wrote letters, posted articles, and attempted to stop certain actions that Bush took that we felt strongly were detrimental to our future. Many of us joined a shortlived experiment titled, DU Activist Corp, hoping that with numbers, we could make a difference. But more than often, we were left to feel powerless and useless and limited in what we, as a group, could achieve.

But in the last few days, DUer Obama supporters have being purposefully mocked and ridiculed for having the gumption to support a candidate that is doing exactly what we, activists have yearned for a long time; listening to the grassroots and more than encouraging a "From the bottom up" campaign.

This candidate has outperformed all expectations; in money, in organization and in actual votes--done via a strong message that is resonating throughout this country; a message of hope. A candidate that tells us that we, if we unite, are who we have been waiting for to actually make change. He is providing us with a forum that could allow us to join not just a small group, but with millions of others.

But here, at DU, we are told that we are stupid and gullible, and that we are a cult. That we, along with millions of others are simply not in our right minds.

We are being told that we belong to an immature cultish click filled with freaks such as Barbara Lee, John Conyers, Tom Hayden, Robert Wexler, Patrick Leahy, Ted Kennedy, Move-On.Org, the Nation, as well as some of the most liberal members of congress, and some of the most progressive performers (Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Dave Matthews's band, melissa etheridge and many others) that have stood up never wavering-- all who now support Obama as their candidate. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4317126

This list of notables are ironically many of the lone voices that gave us hope in many dark hours and stood up for us, when we had no one.

In other words, we are are being treated here, at our DU home, the way that our opposition aka Freepers would treat us if we joined their site.

Apparently, because it is Primary season, anything and everything is game, including the breaking of all DU rules requesting that DUer respect one another with a tone of civility.

Instead, Obama DUers are being called names by Duers who signed up on this site as recently as a month ago. and there is a real attempt being made to tarnish a true Democratic star, one bringing hundreds of thousands into our fold. This is being done, all in the name of winning an election, in where the politics of hate and the policies of "anything goes" is now also pure entertainment.

I may not have always been "nice", but I was always up for lively conversation and debate. These days, I feel great in the real world, until I come to this site.

I take deep offense to the tactics being allowed on DU, and the destructive message that is being spread, and I will not soon forget those who joined in the mocking (perpetuated by those who will disappear as quickly as they came without a care for the destruction that they have caused) of us.

The spreading of the ridiculous meme that Obama is somekind of nefarious messiah, and that his supporters are nothing more than a cult, is deeply disturbing on so many levels, until I am now certain of the integrity of those who are encouraging this. This game that they are playing in the name of winning is bad for the Democratic party, and it is even worse for all of us.

Demonizing a great politician with intangible opinions as to what his supporters represent is very wrong, but ridiculing a majority of DUers at their own site....well, that should simply not be allowed to stand.

[MonkeyFunk]

1. How many nasty, sneering, smearing anti-Hillary threads have you started?

Physician, heal thyself.

[jackson_dem]

22. Not to mention her obsession with Edwards until he dropped out and Barack needed Edwardians

[Yanez Houston Jordan]

176. AMEN! Talk about SUPERHYPOCRISY!

[saracat]

206. Right on.Unfreaking believable.

[krabigirl]

207. totally

[ClericJohnPreston]

210. The sheer gall

of a poster who illuminates this board every 5 seconds with whatever loose change is floating in her consciousness at that moment. Nah, that kind of gushing , uncontrollable, blather is certainly lucid, right? I mean,it wouldn't be cultish, right? Just babbling nonsense phrases like Gobama every two minutes is mere political discourse, right?

[AP]

222. I saw one of the posts and was stunned.

[surfermaw]

101. right on...what goes around comes around...

[MethuenProgressive]

106. ----->

Go. Bama.

[Usrename]

107. I'm not sure why you think that would matter.

Do you think that people who start a lot of nasty, sneering, smearing anti-Hillary threads should just be dismissed?

Is that really what you are all about? Just pick out a reason to completely ignore another person's grievances out of hand, without any examination?

[MonkeyFunk]

114. I think people who behave very badly

look rather silly when they complain about how others behave. It's called hypocrisy.

[Usrename]

117. So everybody gets let off the hook for bad behavior?

Because somebody else did it too?

Is that how this works?

[MonkeyFunk]

119. Nope

I have long argued, fruitlessly, for better behavior here from all sides.

I have never engaged in the kind of slash and burn attacks that the OP regularly engages in.

I just don't give two tiny shits when the worst offenders start complaining about how people act here. It's stupid and hypocritical. If she hadn't been such a rabid, hateful liar for so long, I would be recommending this thread. But since it's her, I can only laugh.

[Usrename]

121. If this is what floats your boat, go for it.

There's nothing quite like kickin' em when they're down.

I just think someone should tell you that it isn't a very pleasant thing to watch.

[MonkeyFunk]

123. FrenchieCat is "down"?

I'm supposed to be sympathetic to her? If she had ever once shown an ounce of decency and honesty and compassion, maybe I could muster up the strength to give a fuck. But she hasn't, so I can't.

[Usrename]

125. I don't know...

I guess I seem to like everybody here, especially the folks I don't agree with.

:evilgrin:

[MonkeyFunk]

132. I like plenty of people here that I disagree with

but the OP ins't one of them. I don't dislike her because I disagree with her choice fo candidate - I don't like her because she's shown that she'll use any lie, smear or innuendo to destroy a candidate other than her own. She's over-the-top with her bullshit.

[RaleighNCDUer]

173. Slash and burn tactics?

Like claiming that voting for Kyl/Lieberman after having voted for IWR indicates that Hillary didn't learn from her mistakes? That's slash & burn?

Or how Hillary claims 35 years experience, but doesn't mention that 15 years of it was working as a corporate lawyer? That's slash & burn?

Some people say ANY criticism of Hillary is uncalled for, while calling Obama supporters 'cultists'.

I can only laugh.

[MonkeyFunk]

178. You can't honestly

believe that she's engaged only in legitimate criticism. She's been a flame-thrower for a long time - one of the worst. No lie, smear or innuendo is below her.

It's laughable to think her criticisms are legitimate debate.

[RaleighNCDUer]

231. Prove it. List these offenses against reason.

I've yet to see you actually spell out any real criticism. Just slander and accusations. Back it up, and we can discuss it.

[creeksneakers2]

219. That Kyl-Lieberman nonsense is a smear

There's no truth behind it at all. Kyl-Lieberman hasn't done a single thing to make war with Iran more likely. If anything, its made it less likely.

[RaleighNCDUer]

232. A lot of very knowledgeable persons think otherwise.

The simple fact is, Bush has the authority already to strike at terrorists, wherever he sees them hiding. K/L pointed at Iran, naming terrorists. Whatever caveats there may be are dwarfed by the fact that it said "you can attack terrorists, and THERE THEY ARE!"

All the authority he needs - particularly with his known and repeatedly proven propensity for ignoring the fine print, just as he did with the IWR, which had the SAME level of safeguards to prevent him doing exactly what he did - WITHOUT HILLARY PROTESTING.

So, no, YOUR argument is bullshit.

[creeksneakers2]

244. Bush only has the authority to go after terrorists who

were involved in 9/11. Nothing in Kyl-Lieberman gave authority for an attack against terrorists, unless they were inside Iraq.

If Bush can ignore fine print, then what difference does a resolution make?

[Mass]

128. You are missing the point - The point is that these threads are not attacking the candidate, but his

supporters.

I have no problems with threads who attack Obama on positions or on scandals, true or not. These can be rebutted and Obama is running.

However, calling Obama supporters cultists or other things like that is different. It is engaging in name calling and in other times, would have been rejected by the moderators (not blaming them. I see too many things I would lock if I was a moderator, so I understand they have more or less renounce to moderate this forum altogether).

You probably will not understand the difference, but there is a huge difference between attacking Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, and attacking their supporters because they support them.

[MonkeyFunk]

137. And how many thousands of times

have we been called Hillbots, or Hillshills, or something of the kind?

Selective outrage leaves me unfazed.

[Mass]

138. You want to compare to Obamaniacs, Obonics, Obomotrons, ... ? No selective outrage from me.

I have said what I thought about these in other places and never used them.

But I am sad to see reasonable Clinton supporters not getting what is wrong with this cult story. It is certainly what makes me think it is not coming from some trolls as these other names, but is an organized effort. It makes me wonder why I should support somebody who clearly does not respect my involvement in politics (between that and telling me I have to vote for a woman because I am a woman, I am getting really tired of it). Respect your opponents supporters should be the first rule in politics.

[MonkeyFunk]

145. This is probably the first post of mine

that contains the word "cult".

I haven't piled on in any of those threads. But many here pile on in all the "billary" threads, using right-wing smears and lies, bringing up long-debunked stories, etc. etc.

Sorry, I just have no sympathy for one particular faction here. I've long asked people to grow up and act like adults, but they don't. And now that your guy is getting some heat, people are demaning something be done. Well I think it's bullshit.

I've put up with so much shit against my candidate for months - and I've never responded in kind. But I think it's ridiculous to start complaining NOW about the behavior here when it's been a cesspool for months.

[TheDeathadder]

135. my head's spinning

[Mojorabbit]

139. It does not matter

she is right. I don't care for either of the candidates to be honest but there needs to be some boundaries set. Half the voting party supports one or the other. Neither deserve these kinds of attacks. And describing members of this board and half the voting party as part of a cult is way over the top.

[MonkeyFunk]

146. sorry

Nobody gets to be a hateful lying attack machine for months, then try to call a truce when it gets turned back on them.

It's childish.

[Usrename]

168. OK - what is the big lie that has your panties all in a wad?

It better be a big damn fat lie too, because you've called her a liar more than once in this single thread. Personally, I think that's over the line, unless you want to try and explain why you keep posting with this personal insult against another member.

Let's hear it.

[MonkeyFunk]

179. You can search her threads as well as I can

she's a hateful partisan who will use any lie, smear or innuendo in a failed attempt to advance her candidate.

[Usrename]

184. You can do better than that, I hope.

It's the third or fourth time in this thread you've called her a liar.

You should either put up or just knock it off. It's wrong to just hurl personal attacks and insults at other posters here.

[MonkeyFunk]

191. Don't care what you think

or what she thinks.

I was fed up with the bullshit being spewed by her type a long time ago, and I'm free to call it bullshit. If you don't like it, ignore me.

But read this thread and you'll see I'm far from the only person calling her on her hypocrisy.

[femrap]

It seems she can...

Yes She Can! Yes She Can! Yes She Can!


sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

190. Straw.

[bagrman]

208. I still can't believe that anyone who would vote for the Patriot Act can be qulified to be Pres.

That alone tells you that she part of the problem.

[Armstead]

2. You and I have had our spats -- But you're right on here

[ursi]

17. sad part is that we have watched good candidates get picked off one by one by

the corporate media whores and those corporate lobbyists and the corporations that were afraid of them ...who will be next?

I fear we are going to end up with a Repug in the White House again.

[juajen]

30. What BS!

You still haven't answered my request for a link on another thread where you attempted to smear Bill Clinton and Hillary. You, lady, or gentlemen, just left the thread. Funny, now you're on this one.

We will not stop, people. We have had it up to our eyeballs. Get used to it. At least we aren't posting good articles and pretending they're bad, as you did. My God, do you think none of us read?

FYI, I have been here since 2002, Any questions?

[Usrename]

104. Why are you stalking this person?

Obviously if they wanted to respond to you they would, in that other thread.

Do you think anyone OWES you some stupid link just because you've been here a long time?

I would suggest that you should stop this behavior, in spite of your frustration. What purpose does it serve?

[billbuckhead]

3. Type Obama and cult in to Google together and get 1/2 million hits

This didn't come out of nowhere.

[Whisp]

15. no it didn't, it came from 'somewhere'.

:rofl:
lemme guess.

[Bread and Circus]

19. Mark Penn?

[Whisp]

24. karl rove's uglier/handsomer brother?

could be.

[Bread and Circus]

28. Uglier I think. What was the mutant in Goonies name again?

[Whisp]

33. have no idea. heh. I am so not tv.

but if it looks likes a pig and sweats like one. it's a pig.

[Bluenorthwest]

155. That would be

Donnie McClurkin.

[rodeodance]

48. try 3 newspaper articles last few days.

[FlyingSquirrel]

41. No, it PROBABLY came from Karl Rove.

And that does not excuse those who are repeating it.

[rodeodance]

47. Results 1 - 10 of about 473,000 for cult Obama. (0.18 seconds)

[LordJFT]

64. haha the logic of your evidence rivals people who argue against evolution

[Josiah1982]

88. lol, I just did and you are right. Obama and cult go hand in hand.

[Voice for Peace]

172. Hilary Clinton + cult only gets 156,000 hits nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. It's not just about Obama being a victim anymore, it's about Obama

supporters being victims too! Nitwit.

[rodeodance]

5. Is a genuflect in order?

[LeftCoast]

6. DU unto others...

Funny seeing you cry about this, all things considered.

[Yossariant]

7. A word of advice from the loyal opposition. You are too personally invested in this. Take a break.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jackson_dem]

16. Intidimate?

Was it Hillary supporters threatening to ban Lirwin and Proud2BA for criticizing St. Obama?

[DJ13]

21. I never saw anyone "threatening to ban", I saw people ignoring them...

.....for posting the most childish drivel imaginable.

[jackson_dem]

25. I saw mobs of Obamites threaten to have them banned

Thugs. I haven't see Hillary supporters or Edwardians do this.

[harrytruman]

68. ha....i think Darwin

might shed some light upon this, lol

[MadBadger]

69. Please, enlighten me on the meaning of that comment.

[acmavm]

151. You are the PERFECT example of how gutty it is for you Obamites to

bitch about anything.

[napi21]

9. I think you are being way too sensitive. I voted for Obama on Tuesday,

so you sure shoudn't slam me for beating up on you, but I don't think he's a GREAT politician by any streatch! I took a very long time to make my decision because I was a strong Biden supporter and after he and all the others dropped out, it was very hard for me to decide who to vote for between the remaining two. I like both candidates. Whatever nasty things you hear on DU against you or your chosen candidate is NOTHING compared to what you're going to hear from the Pubs, so I suggest you get used to it and figure out a way to fight back and win. Whining about how you're being beat up is not the answer!

[Lerkfish]

10. I thought this was hypocritical coming from clinton supporters

so to be fair, I'll have to make the same determination, with the caveat that I haven't been tracking the OP's threads or posts.

IMHO, as someone who is not thrilled entirely with either Clinton nor Obama, I have to say the clintonites and obamites have just about equally done a scorched earth policy here against the other.

so, to paraphrase Tom Hanks in " A league of their own"....."There's no crying in POLITICS!"

:)

[BigBearJohn]

11. You must be the change you want to see in the world.

[Lerkfish]

14. cool saying

and very apt.

[rtassi]

174. One of the immutable truths of the Universe n/t

[blue neen]

205. Word.

:thumbsup:

[jackson_dem]

12. This coming from arguably the biggest swiftboater of Edwards here

:eyes:

[Laelth]

13. Here, perhaps, Obama's core message applies.

Invite them to come together for the benefit of all America. For all we know, the fight for the nomination is already over, and Barack Obama has won.

Or, so I argue (as a very real possibility) here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4473170

Have a drink, on me.

:toast:

-Laelth

[Bread and Circus]

18. /bravo Frenchie. K & R.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. I understand and agree with much of

what you have written FrenchieCat-

Some thoughts to keep in mind.

Nothing anyone says about us that is as untrue and intentionally negative as we've seen here lately really means anything. It says more about the person(s) doing the slinging, than it does about us.

Also, like animals, people often attack when they are scared. And I think that those who can only envision Hillary as their "leader" are terrified. They can't deny that Obama is an outstanding candidate, and that he has a large and diverse following, here at DU and in the 3D world. It's dissapointing to see and experience this kind of crap, but it also says more about the desperation of those who feel the need to slander and smear their fellow Dems- rather than accept reality.


As for the names, they just downright silly. They remind me of when my kids were really little, when they really didn't have anything worthwhile to say to each other, they'd sometimes resort to "poopy-head" and "stinky-face"- because that is all they had to offer. It's pretty infantile- but when you have nothing of substance to use, you get desperate.

We support an excellent candidate- and nothing anyone says here at DU can change that-

peace~

[kristopher]

23. Republican slime machine

Has it occurred to you that the genesis of this "cult" type talk is the Republican slime machine laying the groundwork for their GE campaign?

Marginalizing through ridicule.

[Bread and Circus]

29. I think you are right, Mark Penn is a Republican come to think of it.

[juajen]

40. Has it occurred to you that the reason this has come up is quite simple

If it talks like a duck, and walks like it duck, it's a damn duck. Ya'll are calling him a great politician, and you can't understand why we're laughing? Yes, laughing. He's done nothing to impress me, except look great in his clothes and make good speeches. But, even Michelle says he stinks when he takes off his socks, and he has yet to sound good at a debate. He also refuses to talk about what changes he is going to make. Shouldn't that scare any of you? So, I ask, who's signing your paycheck?

[Big Blue Marble]

44. Yack, Yack, Yack.

If he is such a lossy candidate why he is at par with your candidate under unbeatable odds.

I would say the facts on the ground support that he is the superior candidate.


And all you can do is insult him. You are screeching irrationally.

[Usrename]

112. How do you conclude that Obama is not an accomplished person?

Where did you learn this about him? Can you remember who told you this? Or where you read it? Or how you know it?

[maq-az]

26. WOW

I've been reading DU since 2003 and started feeling the same way. That is why I signed up to post. Hoping that all of you could return to the sound reasoning that I always looked for.
Unfortunately if I knew how to work the ignore feature, you would have been the first one I would have used it on. I'm sorry but, venom has been relentless.

[SammyWinstonJack]

186. Just click on the red x next to the green x to ignore that person.

Follow the instructions from there.

[maq-az]

253. Thanks

[donheld]

27. I will have to side with the Hillary side on this one

The Obama supporters have been just as brutal, if not more so, than any of the Hillary supporters. I support Obama and have done so for at least a couple of weeks, but I've seen far too many really visious threads bashing both the big candidates. The Hillary side has been rough, but the Obama folks have just been insanely bad.

[donheld]

32. The K's and the R's

seems to me, that most of the "greatest threads" only get there by the Obama people rushing to recommend anything, either pro-Barack or bashing Hillary, or the Hillary people rushing to recommend Pro-Hillary or bashing Obama threads.

[Bread and Circus]

39. on what grounds? I'm here quite a bit and what I see are a lot of

posts that take Clinton to task on her record and history. What the fuck are we supposed to do, debate who would pick better drapes for the Lincoln bedroom?

Talking about records, political history, and personal ethics is not bashing.

If Clinton voted against a ban on selling cluster bombs (which she did), that's not fair game to you?
If Clinton is a leader of the DLC which many of us think eviscerated the Democratic Party, that's not fair game to you?

Let's a have a real debate and let's end the name calling.

I'm sorry but people ask us to "go positive" about Obama and stop "going negative" about Clinton but when we do we are called "cultists" as if we are following some messianic Svengali. If it's not that, we get the post-Edwardians telling us that Obama is a "corporate shill" but seemingly fail to acknowlege that whatever a "cororate shill" Obama might be, Clinton is an even bigger "corporate shill" when you actually look at the records. And when you actually look at the records you find a very cozy relationship between Clinton and the defense industry as well as an extremely hawkish record on foreign policy that promotes dangerous unilateralism and trigger-happy aggression. You will also find that she has stood in the way of governmental ethics and transparency.

People who say they are barely different are just people who haven't taken the time to research and read.

[Big Blue Marble]

42. To them anything counts as trashing her.

And they call us cultists! I know it is hard to be totally objective but I think
there is a difference in both tone and approach between the Hillary supporters and the Obama supporters.

Perhaps, they instinctively realize that they really do have the weaker candidate.

When we are criticizing her on her war votes, cluster bombs, the damage in the WJC Administration,
her corporate cronyism or her political divisiveness, they will argue that we are attacking her
unfairly.

At some level, they realize they can't defend her on any of these points and the only
thing they can do is name calling and hope it sticks.

[Bread and Circus]

43. Amen, and with that little bit of reason I can go to bed. Thanks. :)

[MonkeyFunk]

45. If you honestly believe all the Clinton-bashing threads

are legitimate criticism, you're willfully blind.

[Big Blue Marble]

50. Yes I agree there is some immature name calling and bashing from a few.

I think the great majority are legitimately criticizing your candidate.

She is a very flawed candidate. There is much to criticize without resorting to
bashing.

[MonkeyFunk]

52. And many here

believe just as fervently that your candidate is very flawed.

Sorry, I just think ANYBODY who perceives this as a one-sided problem is just wrong.

[Big Blue Marble]

55. I agree that Obama is flawed.

There is no such thing as the perfect candidate. That goes without saying. We are all flawed.
I would be happy to discuss our respective candidates' flaws with an objective Hillary supporter here.
It is just that I have not found one.

Are you willing to admit as I have that some of your comrades here are bashing?

In the past, I have seen some pretty bashy stuff coming from you MonkeyFunk.

[MonkeyFunk]

60. You have?

I challenge you to find one example where I've bashed a candidate.

One.

You won't.

[Big Blue Marble]

62. If I am wrong, I apologize.

I do not keep lists or track individual Hillary's supporters comments.
I only have impressions of certain posters.

Either way you know the truth of your own behavior better than I do.

[MonkeyFunk]

116. And here's part of the problem

you looked at my avatar and presumed something about me that wasn't true, based solely on the avatar.

That's mindless prejudice, and I can attest first-hand that you are far from the first person to do so.

But I appreciate your apology - it puts you above most of the others.

[Usrename]

196. Actually, your behavior is much different than bashing a candidate.

You are bashing other posters. These are real people! You're unfuckingbelievable!

[LostinVA]

110. No, he hasn't and neither have I ever bashed Dem candidates

Although I was swarmed and attacked yesterday in a thread claiming I do. I also alert on and/or publicly call out things that -- imo -- step over the line.

[creeksneakers2]

220. You haven't found ONE?

Something is up with that.

[bagimin]

217. You said it brother..(or sister) n/t

[Straight Shooter]

31. "one bringing hundreds of thousands into our fold."

Do you ever listen to yourself? Let me repeat it for you, slowly. "one. bringing. hundreds. of. thousands. into. our. fold."

"Demonizing a great politician with intangible opinions ..."

You're so deep in your devotion, you're beginning to play the martyr.

[jackson_dem]

35. Yup and she is being a huge hypocrite

Remember her posts and threads on Edwards?

[Straight Shooter]

54. Fortunately, no. I didn't jump back into DU until a couple weeks ago.

But I can imagine, considering the source.

[Donnachaidh]

189. oh yeah.

Of course, Hypocrisy never stopped any of the scenery chewers and the needy *I wanna be a cheerleader* types.

Dishes it out but when the tables are turned call a waaaahhhmbulance! :shrug:

[Eurobabe]

34. DUers need to get beyond all of this and start DEMONIZING....

McLAME!!!

All this infighting is dysfunctional, wasted energy.

Channel it people.

:hug: Frenchie, maybe you need a break for a couple days. There is life outside of DU, I've been going skiing on the weekends, it feels great.

-48

[jannyk]

36. What Goes Around, Comes Around. Your ridicule and

vitriolic posts about Edwards and his Supporters are remembered all too well. Obviously, you are far better at giving it out than taking it.

[caligirl]

38. I was an Edwards supporter and I find her post on point.

[jackson_dem]

46. Yup. It doesn't get anymore hypocritical than French and her OP

[caligirl]

37. deleted for sarcasm

[MadBadger]

49. K&R

[McCamy Taylor]

51. Sorry, but Obama supporters were using "Edwards is a phony" & "Hillary is a Bitch"

If the Obama supporters on this board had played nice to begin with, then they would not be encountering the hostility they are getting now.

[Indenturedebtor]

57. I never saw that

But as an Edwards supporter I started getting a pretty strong impression of HRC supporters a while back.

Lately every time I post a comparison of the two I get more attacks on my character than on my points or my chosen candidate.

Nasty stuff. Criticize HRC get attacked yourself. Ugly.

On Edit:

When I was an Edwards supporter... now I'm in the Obama camp.

[jackson_dem]

63. I did. The swiftboating of Edwards on the netroots came from Obamites

And we should never forget that. It wasn't Hillarites he did it.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Usrename]

133. Whatever the deleted guy said, it goes double for me.

I don't know why you think he can't afford his house. Obama made a good deal on the house. I don't know that he's missed any payments on it. Why do you think he wouldn't be just as smart when he gets to the Whitehouse?

Is this all you got?

[NOLALady]

197. Hoops?

[golddigger]

175. As a former Edwards supporter I will vouch for that...n/t

[Big Blue Marble]

59. I never saw any of that not once.

It is so immature to say well they did it first and now they deserve it.

How old are you.? I hope over 12 or you should be in bed.

You may not recognize it as so but your excuse is a classic rationalization
that you are using to justify your own behavior.

Live up to your own words and be more tolerant.

[emilyg]

78. I'll never forget the witch photo one Obama supporter posted.

Thank God she is gone.

[grantcart]

53. There are a couple of important differences between those who

criticize Clinton and those that criticize Obama one is that the criticism against Clinton in most but not all cases has to do with the strategic question of her extremely high negatives and a strong reaction that she provokes in people - which in many cases is unfair but in fact is exacerbated by how the Clinton's build a facade and try to over manipulate. The other night I saw Hillary on Nightline completely relaxed and engaging, the tone completely different, and had she run with that its doubtful that there would have been much of a contest.

Secondly I find it odd how many Clinton supporters habitually show anti Obama attitude as a stronger part of their identity than being pro Clinton. The rakish presentation of the "kool-aid Obama icon" in every single post by some is but one example.

If Clinton prevails then all of the past will be fodder for the republicans, they cannot wait for it. Do people think that there is some rule that prevents the republicans from raising all of the gates (from travel to Lewinsky) simply because the democratic opponents have too much taste. All of the 'un vetted' activities of the Clintons since 2000 will be questioned. The republicans will be given the gift of not only running against clinton but 20 years of bush/clinton/bush/clinton. They will not only be able to run against clinton but also bush. Thousands of ads will be shown with the faces of the old presidents, the commercials write themselves. Its not swift boating because it is fact. It may not be fair but presidential campaigns are not, as we all know, fair.

By a stroke of luck we have another option. A brilliant man whose personality is so engaging he seems to bring a unique charismatic appeal, who happens to be african american. He has worked in the community, has taught the constitution, and did not sell himself out to the corporate or the institutional powers when it would have been expected, easy and lucrative. For many there are but three criticisms that are used to scorn him.

1) He wants to build a bigger coalition so he will have a bigger mandate to run
2) He is male
3) He seems to have touched a profound hunger many people have and their enthusiasm is seen as a character flaw.

He is most likely going to be the nominee the only thing that can stop him is if his positions are misstated, his success patronized,
or his popularity trivialized. All three have been attempted.

One is left wondering how low will those who cling to the Clinton institution with its touches of brilliance and self destruction go to stop him. Thank you Frenchie for allowing me an opportunity to respond.

[Jed Dilligan]

56. You should post this as its own thread

It is one of the best summaries of this conflict I have read--maybe the best.

[grantcart]

70. thank you for your kind remarks and i have posted it but it may have sunk like rock lol

[Jed Dilligan]

156. The smart ones usually do sink like that

The collective IQ here used to be much higher.

[MadBadger]

58. You hit the probem exactly, they seem to be more anti-Obama than Pro-Hillary.

[jackson_dem]

65. It's arguably the other way around...

[harrytruman]

72. not anti-Obama.....

anti the Jimmy Carter effect...."c'mon now, let's all hold hands now, and the bad will all go away!"
tell that to Anwar Sadat's widow......it's a big bad world out there,and wishing will not make it go away.........we need a candidate that knows this.

[FrenchieCat]

80. Again, I wish you gone.

You are one of those who come only to cause trouble.

You are the bad, and I hope you go away.

[NOLALady]

198. And your choice of candidate who will make the bad

go away is...?

[Labors of Hercules]

209. That would be some fundamentalist nutjob

who shares his "Christian values". :eyes:

[Straight Shooter]

254. "They seem to be more anti-Obama than Pro-Hillary."

Yet you think he's going to get all the love in the GE?

Right wing's attacks on Hillary may cause a collective yawn or an eyeroll, as in "oh, gawd, not this bullshit again." But attacks on the new guy? Surf's up!

[Big Blue Marble]

61. I agree great analysis.

As I said above in post #42, I think at some level they know that they can't really
defend her so they attack defensively. It is a sign of weakness.

I, too, worry what the Clinton's will do in their attempt to win. Did you see the thread
where she is reported to be on video saying to a reporter?

"If that doesn't work, then you go in and try to beat the brains of the other guy out."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4474045

That is what we are watching; the more desperate they become, the nastier all this gets.
And our democracy and our country loses.

[IsItJustMe]

221. I neither support BO or HRC strongly, but I will vote for either. But just to be fair, did you see

the poll last night for Obama supporters only. It asked if HRC is the nominee, would you vote for her. Last I saw, 35% said they wouldn't. I think there is mud to go around on all sides here.

I want to see a Dem in the White House. PERIOD.

[creeksneakers2]

223. Obama is a good candidate too

But he won't win if his supporters decide to turn back over what the right wing is going to do. Whether its Hillary or Obama, the threat of right wing attacks shouldn't deflect us from our directions one bit. I refuse to let what the right wing will do to Hillary stop me. In a way, I even want Hillary more because I want to see those people try to get her and wind up with their asses kicked.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadBadger]

67. Its awful that I'm not surprised to be reading Bullshit like what you are spewing.

[harrytruman]

71. bullshit???

......ahh, i think we have an issue?....lol
do your homework, and if BestBuy doesn't require an IQ test before selling comps, god help us all!

[stillcool]

144. Are you proud of your ignorance?

Do you enjoy pounding that race shit home?

[Qanisqineq]

73. I try to stay out of the crap being flung

but I find this extremely funny since some of the nastiest threads and posts I've read were written by you. The vitriol was mindboggling.

[harrytruman]

82. what vitriol?

.....these guys like to fling loose facts like Obama flashing his Crest-induced incisors.
if you equate fact with caustic remarks.....right back to the source,Bestbuy!
turn in your comp or do some research please?.......Obama will be like an episode of the Twilight Zone.......can't you hear Serling's voice pointedly,almost in abject horror,saying that he should have seen this coming?....."a man with a purpose, or was he?...alone as the ice melted beneath his feet.....as his supporters ran for cover as the age-old time weary dream was recoverd yet again.......alone he was, here in the Twilight Zone."

[Qanisqineq]

85. what the hell are you talking about?

[harrytruman]

86. ummm

"those who do not learn history are destined to relive it"
vote Hillary please?......i dun wanna do Jimmy Carter all over again.......and yeah, i did vote for him....been there, done that..( psst!! it didn't go well)

[Qanisqineq]

96. I never said I was an Obama supporter

I only replied to the original poster about her vitriol in the past.

[NOLALady]

199. He sounds like a freeptoid nutcase.

[LVjinx]

75. Perhaps

you could consider expressing some of the reasons you *do* support Obama, instead of insisting that everyone is mean for misrepresenting those reasons. That might be a tad bit more effective than a temper tantrum.

[FrenchieCat]

84. I've done my share of supporting Obama with many a constructive threads....

If you don't believe me, here ya go! http://journals.democraticunderground.com/FrenchieCat

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

91. Kiss my ass!

[Crunchy Frog]

98. Is this intended as some sort of racist rant?

I find it difficult to decipher your incoherence.

[mtnester]

97. Yeah, like the thread you TOTALLY edited a few minutes ago?

Did you know that even though YOU edit the original subject line of the thread, the person you responded to KEEPS the original subject line? So, when you say Fuck you to someone...that stays in their MY DU as the subject line no matter what you edit it to. Funny how that works.

Or, if you edit your OP to say Fuck it...then to your current code word for fuck you, ever one of those edits, in progression are still visible to the mods, including the ORIGINAL post subject? Funny how that works.

Here is one of your positive threads that you furiously edited in the last half hour to avoid it being locked or a TOS (the link itself it to the specific call out of FUCK YOU to a poster which now says some Gomama code word for FU)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4475160&mesg_id=4475279

Why isn't this one linked up on your journal? Or this thread we are in?

Oh, and for the record, I am certain I will not make my mind up on which of the current candidates I will be casting my vote for March 4 in the booth. But I remember your lovely support for Edwards. It was quite interesting.

Edited for appalling grammar only.

[jackson_dem]

76. IF French is serious she will come into this thread and apologize for helping swiftboat Edwards

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4474754

[jackson_dem]

100. Not surprising...French's rhetoric doesn't match her actions

[K Gardner]

113. Look, I argued with FC endlessly in SUPPORT of Edwards, but most of her posts

were researched and based on policies/differences.. not on Rovian smear. I think we're ALL guilty of some trash talk, but FC has been substantive. You cannot say that about the current batch of sludge here, JD.

[emilyg]

77. You have dumped more sh*t on DU than almost anyone else.

[FrenchieCat]

83. That's what you'd like to think in order to justify yourself.

Won't work.

I'm not nice, but I am reasoned...and therein lies the difference.

[harrytruman]

89. reason implies...

intellect, not vocabulary......try again please?

[elixir]

109. You're not nice AND you're unreasonable. That's what makes you...you.

[Josiah1982]

81. Drink the coolaid and join the cult.

[cloudythescribbler]

90. EXTREMELY thoughtful post -- one refinement though: this problem's hardly mainly from those who ...

have signed up recently.

The Democracy Corps, incidentally, was working fine before the Administrators, without a vote and (to my knowledge) without an explanation, just gave it up just as it started going, and doing pretty well.

I think that to really understand the problem rightly noted by Frenchie Cat (even for those of us who prefer Obama to all the other possible alternatives but aren't as hopeful as FC) what is needed is a concrete examination of where all these threads are coming from and who is sustaining them.

For example, three memes stand out as remarkable, though there have been numerous others:

(1) The McClurkin Demiurge: this episode, which was basically a matter of Obama trying to handle a sticky situation he faced having already publicized a concert by a popular gospel singer and in the final days hearing objections from gay activists. How many of those complaining -- in DOZENS of threads often with SCORES of recommendations and even more (sympathetic) participants, and few GLBT individuals other than myself significantly trying to take this on -- had ever HEARD of McClurkin before this episode? I certainly hadn't.

(2) Handshake-gate???? That there would even be one or two threads focusing on that is odd, that there were a whole slew is positively ('dorothy this isn't kansas') bizarre.

(3) The "cult" meme -- just at the point that Obama has come into a position at least arguably stronger (especially given the Feb prospects and the $ situation) than HRC -- which essentially mocks his very popularity. Yet NO ONE wants to deal with the whole batter of polls (I posted on one thread a LIST OF SIX FROM RCP ALL OF THEM SHOWING OBAMA running stronger against McCain than Clinton). No one is interested in even trying to come up with credible counterevidence that shows Obama would NOT be the strongest in November.

Now there are a LOT of different sorts of activists on DU. Some, like myself, support anti-imperialist activism (like students for a democratic society/movement for a democratic society -- sds/mds) and are significantly to the Left even of the platforms of Kucinich and the Rainbow Coalition. But surely one point of logical confluence should be the desire to see the DEMOCRATS win against the Repugs. This is more basic than even embracing the presumption that Obama really represents grassroots authentic progressivism rather than (as many would insist) more mainstream Democratic Party politics. It would seem that a HUGE burden is on those who want a candidate SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to lose to McCain, especially in the absence of any SERIOUS credible platform differences or issues worthy of supporting Hillary Clinton as against Obama. The case for HRC boils down to essentially some kind of personal evaluation (on this score is EXACTLY why I decided to start giving to Obama's campaign many months ago). But this isn't being made. Instead, there are tsunamis of trollagerie, and, as also happened to me at the time of the Democracy Corps, the administration of DU was not at all interested in even content critiquing (more effective than censorship) the swarms of trolls that appeared then and even more now.

We must stand up to what can only be described as "the privileges of hate", something you DON'T have to buy the meme that Obama is all that in order to see -- though the issue is FAR HARDER to ADMIT rather than just seeing.......

[cloudythescribbler]

92. EXTREMELY thoughtful post; one refinement tho: MUCH of the problem is NOT just from those who ...

have signed up recently. The Democracy Corps, incidentally, was working fine before the Administrators, without a vote and (to my knowledge) without an explanation, just gave it up just as it started going, and doing pretty well.

I think that to really understand the problem rightly noted by Frenchie Cat (even for those of us who prefer Obama to all the other possible alternatives but aren't as hopeful as FC) what is needed is a concrete examination of where all these threads are coming from and who is sustaining them.

For example, three memes stand out as remarkable, though there have been numerous others:

(1) The McClurkin Demiurge: this episode, which was basically a matter of Obama trying to handle a sticky situation he faced having already publicized a concert by a popular gospel singer and in the final days hearing objections from gay activists. How many of those complaining -- in DOZENS of threads often with SCORES of recommendations and even more (sympathetic) participants, and few GLBT individuals other than myself significantly trying to take this on -- had ever HEARD of McClurkin before this episode? I certainly hadn't.

(2) Handshake-gate???? That there would even be one or two threads focusing on that is odd, that there were a whole slew is positively ('dorothy this isn't kansas') bizarre.

(3) The "cult" meme -- just at the point that Obama has come into a position at least arguably stronger (especially given the Feb prospects and the $ situation) than HRC -- which essentially mocks his very popularity. Yet NO ONE wants to deal with the whole batter of polls (I posted on one thread a LIST OF SIX FROM RCP ALL OF THEM SHOWING OBAMA running stronger against McCain than Clinton). No one is interested in even trying to come up with credible counterevidence that shows Obama would NOT be the strongest in November.

Now there are a LOT of different sorts of activists on DU. Some, like myself, support anti-imperialist activism (like students for a democratic society/movement for a democratic society -- sds/mds) and are significantly to the Left even of the platforms of Kucinich and the Rainbow Coalition. But surely one point of logical confluence should be the desire to see the DEMOCRATS win against the Repugs. This is more basic than even embracing the presumption that Obama really represents grassroots authentic progressivism rather than (as many would insist) more mainstream Democratic Party politics. It would seem that a HUGE burden is on those who want a candidate SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to lose to McCain, especially in the absence of any SERIOUS credible platform differences or issues worthy of supporting Hillary Clinton as against Obama. The case for HRC boils down to essentially some kind of personal evaluation (on this score is EXACTLY why I decided to start giving to Obama's campaign many months ago). But this isn't being made. Instead, there are tsunamis of trollagerie, and, as also happened to me at the time of the Democracy Corps, the administration of DU was not at all interested in even content critiquing (more effective than censorship) the swarms of trolls that appeared then and even more now.

We must stand up to what can only be described as "the privileges of hate", something you DON'T have to buy the meme that Obama is all that in order to see -- though the issue is FAR HARDER to ADMIT rather than just seeing.......

[K Gardner]

115. This should be an OP. And how would you suggest we "stand up".. because

I'm at the point, as dozens of DUers have already done, of walking away. I don't know if these people will come back. If not, it is certainly a loss to DU and DU will be more and more perceived as just Free Republic for Democrats. It has been said recently, and I agree, that DU may not recover from this; although I haven't really been "here" long enough to judge. I have, however, been on numerous Democratic boards since 2000 and NEVER EVER seen anything like this.

I know DU won't be getting any more of my $$ until or unless its cleaned up. And I worry about the face of the grassroots on the internet if DU is one of the most visible and accessible platforms.

[AtomicKitten]

93. No worries, FC. We'll be fine.

And this amazing and truly unexpected opportunity that we have been given will not be drowned out by the naysayers and worse here. This campaign is what we've been waiting for.

The Republicans are coming out ugly. Anti International Court, Anti habeas corpus, Pro torture, Pro warrantless wiretaps, Pro nuclear proliferation; the Republicans are so busy dreaming on wailing on the ME, gay marriage and abortion have lost that new car smell.

Who best to spank McCain? Jeez, even staunch Republicans only slightly tongue-in-cheek consider Clinton more conservative than Grandpa Crazy. Barack opposed the war, this dumb, tragically catastrophic war. Hillary will be reduced to arguing fighting a better war and we can kiss goodbye our chance to get the hell out of Dodge.

Barack is the polar opposite of the loons on the right. He will end the war, not as fast as we want but in consultation with the boys in the Pentagon he can legitimately argue it is a "safe" withdrawal rate. He will restore habeas corpus, close Guantanamo, reinstate FISA as written, and end torture as a U.S. policy (shame on us). He is Anti nuclear proliferation, in fact, an advocate of a global NO NUKES policy, and he will restore and abide by the Constitution of the United States.

Oh, and a poll came out today showing him beating Grandpa by 17 points (Hillary ties).

This is a no-brainer.

Yes, we can. Believe it.

Cheers.

K&R

[alteredstate]

164. AK, you rock!

:thumbsup:

[Duncan Grant]

94. You're one of the biggest Obama fanatics here at DU.

I have a low threshold for fanaticism. Your uncritical devotion and excessive enthusiasm is amateurish and naive. Worse still, is the vilification of anyone who doesn't think similarly to you. And that is what is truly bad for the Democratic party.

My suggestion would be for you (and anyone who is thinking like you) to take a break from DU.

[Usrename]

102. What are you talking about? Where is anyone villified?

Are you reading the same post as I am?

:shrug:

Your hostility seems unjustified based on the OP that I just read.

[Duncan Grant]

122. Calling anyone who doesn't support Obama a freeper *is* vilification.

In other words, we are are being treated here, at our DU home, the way that our opposition aka Freepers would treat us if we joined their site. -FrenchieCat

Such hyperbole!

Do you think my accusation of fanaticism is unfounded? Clearly, there are some (if not many) Obama supporters here at DU who are fanatical. FrenchieCat isn't the only poster who is know for their uncritical devotion and excessive enthusiasm. Often, these very same posters launch into erratic emotional attacks on other candidates and their supporters. Surely you've seen that?

Just because I point it out doesn't make me hostile.

[Usrename]

124. Why do you say that this is hyperbolic?

And why do think it is directed at people who don't support Obama? I don't think it's directed at me, and I certainly don't support Obama. I think he has done something that I might not ever be able to forgive. But I don't think that I've been vilified by the OP.

Obviously you have some kind of history with the poster, that's one thing. But I do think that your hostility shows in the way you interpret the OP.

Let me ask you a question without answering yours. ;) Do you think it is namecalling to say Obama supporters are like a cult? Should those posts be alerted on and taken down? It's important to think about this, I think.

[Duncan Grant]

136. I'd be happy to talk about fanaticism and the "climate" of GD:P if you like.

Feel free to attribute my 'interpretation' of FrenchieCat's post to hostility (or previous history, etc.) -- truly, it makes no difference to me.

If you'd like to have an exchange of ideas, I'm all for it. I'll even extend you the courtesy of not trying to categorize your motivation for doing so.

[Usrename]

165. Sure, if that's an invitation, I accept.

It really is my opinion that calling the OP a fanatic, if it's based only on the information in the OP, is sort of extreme. I don't see anything that's even a little bit off in the sentiments that FrenchieCat expressed there. But then again, I don't feel like I've been accused of anything when I read what she says in the OP either.

Maybe that's the difference, I can't really say. All I can do is try to reason this out. For me it's always easiest when starting from a position that puts everyone in the best light possible.

That's probably why I responded to your first post initially. I don't know how to view it in a favorable light. Unless there's history there, which you and a lot of others say there is. That makes sense, I guess, because I don't see anything in the OP, taken at face value, that should spark the kind of response you gave.

[Duncan Grant]

183. I commend you for not taking my word for it.

I think it's fine if you and I have differing opinions about who teeters toward fanaticism. If you're interested, feel free to use the search function regarding FrenchieCat's posts.

For a broader examination of fanaticism here in GD: P look to any in a series of "DID NOT!" - "DID, TOO!" posts. That would also include the innumerable "I won't vote for (the eventual nominee) in November!" posts, too.

Personally, I find "fanatical" discourse immature and naive. This should be about the Democratic Party and how a broad coalition will crush Republican ideology once and for all -- imho. All this "cheerleading for Jesus" tripe is inconsequential.

edit: GD: P not GD:P

[Usrename]

195. I think the broad coalition is there already. And it's growing.

It's growing by the inclusion of a whole lot of people who don't have strong political convictions. People everywhere are motivated to move toward something much better than what we have.

The way I see it, there's a third of the country that believe Bush is guided by the hand of God, and they will never waiver. The Rapture is their exit strategy. Then there is another third, that's us, the traditional members of DU and other boards like it, who believe we are very close to the point of no return on our freefall descent into fascism.

The rest of the country is in the middle. They're good people, it's just that they are not nearly as fanatical or passionate about their political beliefs as we are. They will go either way, mainly because they too are very, very frightened, and for good reason. Knowing this, that they are scared, makes it very simple to determine which way they will flop. They will go to which ever side they perceive as being the strongest.

To us, being liberals and such, we have a pretty skewed view of the world and of politics in general. We tend to be quick to recognize the strength of individualism, and also quick to recognize the weakness of popular thinking, even going so far as to ridicule some folks as sheeple. We admire most, the people who push against the stream, and who aren't afraid of differing opinions, we revere them, they are our true role models and heroes.

The majority of people, those in the mushy middle of the political spectrum, don't perceive any of this in the same way at all. Not even close. They see everything completely different. They see strength as unity. They are good people, moral and ethical and patriotic and all of that. They belong on our side, with us. They will always feel much safer going with a unified group, with a single, focused and strong message. That's what they are drawn to. That's how the right-wing attracts them. It doesn't matter so much where they are marching to, as long as they are in lock-step, they will be perceived by the mushy middle as the stronger party, and they will join.

[NashVegas]

182. Please. Please. Please.

Don't feed the troll. If it's not a troll, it's purposefully disingenuous. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look up FC's shit. Please. Don't waste your time when you could do something so much more constructive.

[Usrename]

185. Why on earth would anyone expect me to look up another poster?

What's up with that? If you think you know something relevant to this discussion, please share it.

[Voice for Peace]

177. there are also many fanatics for Hilary. It looks pretty balanced to me. nt

[Duncan Grant]

187. But are you "okay" with that?

Granted, there's plenty of fanaticism to go around. I'm not sure "fanatical balance" is what we should be aiming for at this time.

I'm not asking anyone to follow my proscribed rules of engagement here in GD: P. I'd just like to acknowledge that 99% of the drama here is intentionally created by fanatical supporters.

I believe many, like me, are tired of it.

[Voice for Peace]

192. I think it's stupid, actually the stuff that war is born of. But I can only change myself,

and if people want to engage in this garbage it's their prerogative. I do agree that it undermines the opposition to McCain and that's potentially serious.

[Gore1FL]

95. Wedging is what is killing the GOP now

Pity that the ease of doing makes it so easy for supporters of Candidates for the Dem nomination to fall into the same trap.

It's this sort of rhetoric that killed us in 2000.

The funny thing, is that no one is convincing anyone of anything with the attacks--accept maybe to hate the other Dem nominee enough not to vote if he or she is chosen for our party.

Thankfully, DU is not representative of the party as a whole as it was in 2001, when we really were fighting for the right things.

[alteredstate]

99. Bravo, Frenchie

This board has been deluged with nonstop, destructive threads by posters who joined DU for the sole reason of creating mayhem and discord.

[workinclasszero]

103. This is a war between the left and right

in the democratic party. Obama being the left while Hillary and her DLC gang are the right.

As you can plainly see the dem right is no different than the rethug right in running scurrilous, swiftboat-type attacks on their opponents. It makes no difference to these regressives that Obama is in the same party. A skunk will act like a skunk to friend and foe alike.

Maybe its a good thing that these people expose themselves now before Obama wins the nomination in the fall.

The rethug party will be using the same dirty tactics as the Clintonistias are so defeating them now will help in the general election.

Yes We Can and GOBAMA!!!

[Auntie Bush]

252. "Obama being the left while Hillary and her DLC gang are the right."

I don't agree. That's not true anymore. The Rethugs, Indies and upper class want Obama. The poorer and middle class want Hillary. That position is what Democrats used to take. That makes her left of Obama. Obama is a centrist or even right of center. That's why so many Rethugs vote for him and like him better than Hillary. He wants to compromise our Dem issues with Rethugs in order to get along. Hillary wants to keep our traditional values of defending the unfortunate etc. Hillary is the true progressive.
Disagree with me all you want but that's my personal opinion.
GOMOMA

[RaleighNCDUer]

255. You're both wrong.

It's the organized Democratic right - the DLC - against the unorganised Democratic right. The uninformed tend toward Hillary, because she's been around longer. The left tends toward Obama because he isn't Hillary.

Hillary may be supported by the poor and middleclass, but that doesn't mean she supports THEM. Their REAL candidate was Kucinich, who is as far from Hillary as two members of the same party can be.

Saying that the rethugs support EITHER of them is just plain silly, and does not show any real thought about WHY a republican would give vocal support to a Democrat -- just who has more credibility, Coulter and Limbaugh supporting Hillary, or Hannity supporting Obama? I don't think ANY of them have ANY credibility - they're just fucking with us.

If Hillary is so progressive, why did it take 3 years to condemn the war? Why doesn't she support single-payer non-profit healthcare for all? Why did it take 10 years for her to figure out there might be problems with NAFTA?

Instead of repeating talking points, research them.

[TexasObserver]

105. You're right. It's like the plot of Animal Farm.

Those who were the insurgents become the status quo, and those who challenge them become the insurgents.

[elixir]

108. Unfortunately, FrenchieCat, you had no credibility due to your past threads of hate. Kettle/pot.

[K Gardner]

111. Frenchie, I kept telling you back when you were digging up oppo on Edwards

that Hillary was your REAL enemy and you should focus on her. I'm guessing now you realize this. I agree with your post.

And in defense of Frenchie, as an Edwards supporter I was upset on a daily basis about her posts here RE: Edwards. BUT, people, they were anything BUT "swiftboating" ! I'd say the major part of them were true opposition research posts based on verifiable fact and concerning Edwards positions. They were posts inviting debate, which we did many times. They WERE, for the most part, posts worthy of DU.

This bullshit going on here now is not. And you know who I blame for that? Hillary and Bill Clinton and their politics of Lee Atwater Personal Destruction and Rovian Smear.

Frenchie and I are on the same side now, and its not just Obama, its an END to the gutter politics of Clinton and the RW. Enough already.

[SoxFan]

130. Good reply to a good post

You point out the critical difference. When Frenchie went after Edwards, it was, generaly, over issues, and the comments were directed at the candidate, nit his supporters.

What I am seeing from a rabid minority of Clinton supporters is something different.

These people aren't pointing out differences over health care mandates, Iraq withdrawal, tax policy, or the designated hitter rule. They are attacking the integrity, sanity, and motivations of anyone who supports Barack Obama. They use character assasination and smears to destroy an opponent. They attack not only the candidate, but the hundreds of thousands of honest and decent Democrats and Independents who have voted for, volunteered for, and contributed to the Obama campaign.

The last eight years have given us a despicable coarsening of the political culture. I want to see that change. If Democrats decide that smear campaigns are a fair political tactic, then we are indeed no better than Karl Rove or the Swift Boaters.

[K Gardner]

131. Yes, exactly ! Perfectly stated :-)

[acmavm]

153. Her posts were worthy? You're funny. She consistently referred to him

as 'white' or asking how many black friends he had and other really crappy tactics all designed to play the race card on the sly.

She was threatening to quit the other day. It disappoints me that she's still here.

P.S. Maybe you should gently break the news to her that no one will be losing any sleep regarding her memory retention and the posts here on DU.

[sundancekid]

118. I feel the same, frenchie -- reminds of the famous Pogo cartoon

that so presciently said (and applicable to many, many situations):

"We have seen the enemy and he are us."

DU has coopted itself - and the irony is missed by so many here.

[Major Hogwash]

120. The real test will come after Obama wins the nomination.

Whether those who have trashed Obama will stay until the general election in order to get a Democrat into the White House next year.

[Adelante]

126. Excellent post, Frenchie

I am growing to despise too many here now. I feel very unhappy about it. I am growing to dislike even some who have been my friends or at least friendly in the past, never mind the reactionary and ethics-challenged who are newly inhabiting GDP. I don't know how much longer I will be here at DU. One day I will just not turn up, I guess.

[bunnies]

127. Excellent post FrenchieCat.

I couldnt agree more. :hug:

[wndycty]

129. My Frenchie crush grows everyday

:kick:

[xxqqqzme]

134. I expected what is going on here.

Have you forgotten how Howard Dean supporters were treated here in '04? There were some very nasty attacks here then as well.

That's when I learned to avoid some posters and to not even read some threads. I mostly come here now for LBN & California Forum.

[KennedyGuy]

140. The fact that the OP is whining about a climate that the OP helped create is highly laughable

you create the mud..you wallow in it..
(although you have me on ognore, i have no doubt you will have one of your friends read what i am writing, as usual)
What a load of crap..the sheer hypocracy is hiliarious.

[windbreeze]

149. Every post Frenchie has made that I have read....

states facts open for debate. What happens from then on, on the thread, is NOT her responsibility. She has just as much right to respond to personal attacks as anyone else that frequents this site...what is hypocrisy, is that DU is supposed to be a home to ALL Democrats, but it seems lately, some are welcome, some are not. Since I don't belong to either camp, I feel excluded..Thank God!!

I still don't have a candidate, but I can say this...it's a good thing candidates are not chosen by the example their supporters exhibit. It's fine to tout your candidate...If you absolutely love them, that's great. BUT...The other person just may feel the same way about theirs. Let's be real, when it comes to the candidates, they ALL have faults, and NONE of them are perfect. We can't possibly know who will make the best Pres., because we aren't there yet..all we can do, is pick the candidate that is closest to our own thinking, support them, and vote for them... but is it necessary to turn DU red with blood while we work through the process?

I have been nothing short of amazed at the way you guys tear each other's throats out...FOR WHAT??? Only ONE person is going to be nominated...How is everyone going to feel once that's done? Have relationships, friendships, that have lasted for years on DU, been altered permanently..will any of you ever be able to go back to what was? Was it worth it? Sad, sad, sad....So much rancor and hate, so little time...what a wonderful legacy to put out there for the whole world to view...I wonder if we care?

Thanks Frenchie for all the help in the past, for responding when I needed something and for taking the time to do all the research you do, so that others didn't have too...I appreciate you...wb

[jzodda]

141. Sorry but in your case the messenger IS important

You've dished out your brand of crap left and right for as long as I can remember at folks, me included. You can dish it out but can't take the tone that you helped create? Gimmie a freaking break. Anything has been fair game with your posts for a long time not caring about how people felt hiding behind your keyboard. Maybe you should take a long look in the mirror before you come with this shit. Your not part of the solution-you have been part of the problem.

[stillcool]

142. Carte Blanche...

is given to all kinds of derogatory posts, by the same posters..over and over. There must be a reason why this is sanctioned. I do not see this high octane, low content language at other sites. I wonder why.

[rucky]

143. Well done, Frenchie!

And you seem to have struck a nerve.

[incapsulated]

147. lol n/t

[formernaderite]

148. there is a very real battle going on within democratic circles

its for the very life of the democratic party. People need to understand that the DLC does not look kindly upon people trying to wrest power from them. We running an "us" against them battle at this point...dependent on who the super delegates support, we'll know who has won this battle.

[RubyDuby in GA]

150. Sorry all you Obama supporters who feel left out and mocked need to get in line behind

all us Deaniacs.

I'm not in love with either of them (Hillary or Obama), but we get what we pay for. That was hammered home quite well in 2004.

[mopinko]

160. there is a great deal of crossover

between the 2 groups.

[MoJoWorkin]

202. I was a Deaniac. I guess you don't remember this....

Governor Howard Dean and Democracy for America Announce Dean's Dozen
Released on: May 13, 2004
<snip>
Gov. Howard Dean and Democracy for America Endorse Twelve Candidates - "The Dean Dozen"

<snip>

Barack Obama for United States Senate from Illinois. In the race to regain control of the U.S. Senate, Democrats have few better chances to pick up a seat than in Illinois. DFA volunteers all over Illinois helped Obama win his primary, now they are helping him win the general. Governor Dean will be on the trail with Barack soon.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/press/archives/2004/05

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't understand why you aren't for Obama. Dean sure was. Now that Dean is the DNC chair he can't voice a preference. I find Dean and Obama to be more compatible in their views than Dean and Hillary.

[RubyDuby in GA]

248. I didn't say that I was or wasn't for either of them

Now that my first choice is out of the way, I am definitely for one of them (you and I are alike in our thinkings on who's views are compatible). I only meant that I am sick and tired of the establishment sabotaging popular/populist candidates because it threatens business as usual for them. Kerry was their choice in 2004, not mine. I held my nose and voted for him, even though I knew he was killing the chances of Democrats down ballot in Georgia (not that the ones running were all that good to begin with).

[sybylla]

152. Thank you - the name calling needs to end on all sides

I have called for the end of castigating supporters of a candidate on other local forums because that was how it used to be here. I loved it when the name calling and attack rules were actually enforced here. We could actually talk about the candidates and their issues rather than the divisive strawmen that name calling and personal attack are. And I've seen them crop up on every post these days about any candidate.

Where's the real debate and discussion?

Been here since early 2001. Lurked until 2002. Am deeply saddened by what has been allowed to transpire on what used to be a great website for Democrats and liberals to discuss the candidates. It's one of the reasons I rarely venture outside my state forum and then only to the greatest page. The ridiculous bickering that seems to fill every post about the candidates is just a pointless waste of time.

[jumptheshadow]

154. Having a totally different experience in RL

DU is not the "world." My personal and professional life is filled with people who respect both candidates and are genuinely excited about this race. I've heard more than one story this week from people I know personally who made their voting decision in the booth.

You may not like Hillary. Others, for some (to me unfathomable) reason, might not dig Obama. There are a ton of Democrats, however, who are enthusiastic about both of them.

Frenchie, I have always read your posts and have enjoyed your point of view, back from the time when we were both supporting Wes Clark for president. But from what I've seen, you, as well as fellow Obama supporters and Hillary supporters, have crossed over the line on several occasions. For every "cult" post, I've also seen a post denigrating DUers for being racists or old fogies for supporting Hillary. The insult express has been a two-way street here.

[Carni]

157. LOL!

"for having the gumption to support a candidate that is doing exactly what we, activists have yearned for a long time; listening to the grassroots and more than encouraging a "From the bottom up" campaign."

This post on the heels of Obama's statements about reserving impeachment for *grave offenses* of which he apparently feels that bush did not commit.

Uh--yeah, OK... whatever

[NoBorders]

158. I hear you Frenchie, well said.

GD-P has devolved into a a cesspool of immature insults. I don't come by very often anymore. There's nothing to be gained from it. There are some real fuckheads in here right now spouting utter bullshit. They have their heads too far up their asses to realize they are not damaging Obama so much as the possibility of getting a Dem back in the whitehouse. They're like selfish 5 year-olds.

[ironflange]

161. bravo

my sentiments exactly

du has become a cesspool of hate lately and is imho causing more damage to the dem cause than any bunch of freepers could

im not planning to leave du but im also not planning to venture outside of the lounge on any regular basis

[NoBorders]

167. Same here.

It's only GD-P that has become insane.

[ironflange]

213. yeah thats right

i should have put it that way

[Evergreen Emerald]

159. "Demonizing a great politician...

...with intngible opinions as to what his supporters represent is very wrong."

That is just plain funny. Clinton and the supporters on DU have been demonized and vilifed constantly. And you have been one to do it.

[cornermouse]

162. TIME OUT!

I'm sending all of you to your rooms right now.

[Chisox08]

163. I getting tired off all this name calling.

It is OK to call either Hillary or Obama on their records, but call their supporters names and to bash them because they are not your candidate is wrong. This site in the past few monthes has went from a beacon of truth to a political game of yo mama. Karl Rove couldn't even come up with half of the stuff that has been said on here. This name calling is not only hurting our candidates or our party but it is hurting our country. They are turning younger first time voters off and they are giving the Repukes more and more ammo for the General Elections. Let's be civil when we call the other candidate on their records and stop making the Repukes job easier.

[oneofthepeople]

171. Do we have a common goal to elect a Democrat in 2008?

or is this the Friday Nite Mud Wrestling forum?

Dis me for not having many posts if you must. Dis me for my opinion but it is mine and I must say that I don't read the threads that dis the candidates. I have come to DU because I learned from many of you. Not everyone agrees with a specific issue. That would be impossible, but I would hope that civility within these ranks of citizen discourse would be better. Obama just said in Seattle "Change comes from the bottom up...." Not that we are the bottom, but on second thought......

I want to see a Democrat elected in November. I really do like both Obama and Clinton. I look closely at what they say, and hope they mean what they say. Probably will never know for sure until we see what one or the other does if elected. In the mean time we can evaluate what they say depending on our individual human experience and to the best of our ability and knowledge. I know what 'compassionate conservative' means after seven plus years, now I have to evaluate what all the issues are that encompass 'change'. I know what mine are, but are they the same as the candidate I want elected?

Whatever happens in this race, the best that COULD and SHOULD happen would be to throw out the 'super delegates.' The people should determine who our candidate is in November.

Whatever happens half of this forum is going to have to rethink what they may have posted on this forum. Or not.

[NOLALady]

201. I agree with you.

I simply don't read the 'dis' threads. They are such a waste of time.

My support of Edwards did not mean that I was anti Obama nor anti HRC. Now I support Obama, but I will support HRC if she gets the nod.

[glowing]

166. I really beleive in Karma.. why do you think the Repugs are finally

going down? If you want a political discussion like a rash human being, then fine... But if you attack people, they will feel like reciprocating. I'm sorry if you feel offended by others feeling that this Obama craze is maddening and almost feels like some stage show... If he is the one to bring real change, then fine... But his policies don't scream change...

[rcsl1998]

169. To Senators Clinton & Obama...

...please save me from your supporters - Maybe that should be save yourselves from your supporters - An overgeneralization to be sure, but to the zealous supporters of both, are some of your posts meant to help your candidate or just made to make you feel good regardless of how it's perceived by everyone else? To me, most of the damage incurred by both candidates (on DU) has been self inflicted by way over the top posts from their supporters. Please present your strongest cases FOR your candidate - Sorry, but to me, everyting else is blowback on your candidate...

[citizen snips]

170. GD-P is no place for the soft heart.

but I find ways to enjoy it.

[lwcon]

180. Have you considered the possibility...

... that there is some behavior in the Obama camp that is legitimately offputting to some people of conscience?

No, I don't believe you have.

___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

[Tarc]

181. This? Coming from you?

Dirtbags who savaged Edwards with a disgusting glee now come crying about how they're being treated.

Karma is a bitch, eh?

[NashVegas]

188. Get Off Your High Horse, Lady

If you piss in the pool (and you did, plenty), you don't get to complain the water's all yellow and smells funny.

[Inspired]

193. Do you think posts like "I walked into a 7/11 chanting 'Obama'" hurt or helped the cult meme?

Just asking.

btw....I don't think Obama supporters are a cult. I think they are enthusiastic and I understand that feeling. I had it for Edwards but was accused of liking him because he was 'pretty'.

[flyarm]

194. oh please no one was nastier about Edwards..give it a rest please! eom

[razors edge]

200. Sort of like the bushies calling

other people terrorists, isn't it?

Can't wait till they all leave, I haven't posted a thread here in months because of this exact bullshit.

I get the feeling they could be getting paid for their efforts, as nobody I know would be so adamant about trashing someone on the same side they were on without some type of unseen motivation.

[flyarm]

203. i would bet on it!! ..eom

[Rosa Luxemburg]

204. I do think that the people who are stirring it up are GOP

obviously some are HRC supporters but I do think people are sent here to stir things up

[Richard_C]

229. Yes, but either dem can beat McCain

I prefer Obama because he is antiwar. I am leaving the repubs because of the war.
The only way Hillary can lose is if she tries to out macho John McCain on the war.
People who like the war can vote for McCain and get a hundred years of it.

[rasputin1952]

233. Welcome to DU...

:hi:

[amborin]

211. this site is seething with anti-Clinton vitriol

guess a few obama supporters can dish it out, but cry "victim" when they get a dose of it themselves

Obama has a lot to answer for....hypocrisy for starters...

bashing other candidtates for accepting lobbyists' money, then taking money from lobbyists himself for his campaign....

including some from the nuclear engery industry, corporations with a slimy track record to boot

Hillary is brilliant and progressive

Only Hillary will fight for universal health care

[Cha]

212. I know but consider

the source..and who they support. Knowing hil and bil clinton..I wouldn't expect any class outta their supporters.

They're scared to death of Obama and like cornered rats they are a danger to themselves and their country.

[defendandprotect]

214. Wow --- if you can find a way to waste time and space DU'ers will find it and come --- !!!

[SaveOurDemocracy]

215. We've gone from the absurd to the ridiculous...

This from one of the more prolific Hillary Clinton bashers?? :spray:

[Rockholm]

216. Beautiful.

[mckara]

218. When You Support Deeply Flawed Candidates...

Be prepared to hear the ugly TRUTH about them. Too bad it hurts your feelings, but many of us at DU are working to save our country from corrupt, self-serving politicians. The truth hurts sometimes. Harry Truman said it best: if you want a friend (in politics), get a dog!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

224. I've seen destructive messages from both angles...

And quite honestly, it's made me loath to vote for either Obama or Clinton.

If I hear one of them say they're going to do something about the positively obscene amount of money that is being spent on this bullshit while people are losing homes and unable to afford health insurance, I'll consider voting for one of them. But only if I hear a concrete plan to put people...not corporations...back in charge.

All issues hinge on this one, as I see it.

[OzarkDem]

225. Frenchie

:hug:

[dicknbush]

226. HOPE??????HOPE?????? WE DON'T NEED HOPE WE NEED.........

WE NEED HELP

TO GET HEALTH CARE
TO GET THE ECCONOMY MOVING
TO GET JUDGES WITH BRAINS ON THE SUPREME COURT FOR THE NEXT THIRTY YEARS


WE NEED HILLARY NOT A WANNA BE PREACHER PONTIFICATING

IF I WANT A SERMON I'LL GO TO CHURCH

[Usrename]

249. HILLARY DID SUCH A GOOD JOB WITH HEALTH CARE LAST TIME!

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Richard_C]

227. from a disgruntled republican who will vote for either democrat

People just LIKE Obama better than Hillary.
Antiwar voters like his position on Iraq. If we wanted more war, we could vote for McCain and get a hundred years it!
Obama has none of the Clinton baggage.
Obama is a FAR better speaker.
When Hillary tries to bellow like Ted Kennedy, she shrieks.
Then she sounds like every man's worst nightmare.
Doesn't she have people to run the mic and the amp, and teach her how to use them?

[dicknbush]

228. Obama would not state that he would have the US troops our of iraq by 2013

Asked if they would have troops out of Iraq by the ned of their first term none of the leading Dem candidates would say yes. Not edwards not Obama not Clinton!

[cooolandrew]

230. Wiser if we don't use the "c" word ourselves, it's rovian tactic to embed it in our thinking. Hide..

... the negative threads and turn off anyone on TV that uses is this, this Obama train is coming through. =)

[Rene]

234. I will never vote for a man for President of the US who's name I never even heard of 12 months ago.

A man who voted PRESENT 120 times so as to not make a decision...yes or no. No voting record per se.
A man who has a high absentee rate at his committee meetings.
A man who sided with the nuclear indursty(and took campaign contributions from them) over his constituents in a town totally poisoned by tritium and diesal gas spilled. Promised them help and wound up initiating an industry-friendly bill instead.
Watch --- he's the nuclear industry's future 'friend in high places'.

He's absolutely no JFK or RFK....those were seasoned MEN who'd serverd their country for long seasons before ascending to their stature.
I'm utterly disgusted with Caroline who says her 3 teenage children caused her endorsement of Obama. How shallow of her. This is not an American Idol/rock star / preacher election.
What the heck has Caroline actually done for anyone but herself thru the years anyway.

[grantcart]

235. thank you for posting your completely irrational rant to keep this outstanding thread alive

That you were not aware of the man who gave the key note speech at the democratic convention in 2004 says it all.

[ClericJohnPreston]

236. That you have no idea

of how Obama came to be the one to make that speech is even more telling.

Keeping "on point", Frenchie, you are so not "kewl". I wonder why no one takes you seriously? ?:sarcasm: Your amazing lack of self-awareness brought some much needed comic relief.

[grantcart]

237. As always none of your comments are "on point"

As per normal the presumed nominee, in this case Kerry, invites the keynoter and manages the schedule.

[ClericJohnPreston]

238. Look

Obamite. Your naivete is beyond reproach. As far as being a Frenchie apologist, get real. She deserves every cynical rebuke and then some. Keep trying, though! It keeps this thread alive!!!

[FrenchieCat]

239. I don't know Grantcart....about how great this thread is......

As I saw many nasty personal comments aimed at me from Edwards supporters who don't want to admit that I never spoke of Edwards' hair or of his house....and always stuck to the issue of his votes while he was in the Senate, which I felt strongly made him a weak candidate. And so, many hated me for that, cause they couldn't attack the facts that I presented.

These folks want to rewrite history to make me out to be a "smear" attacker, but they are wrong; I was never a non issue poster. Looks like they were given an opportunity to line up and flog me via this thread. I hope that many will feel the better for it.

[cornermouse]

240. A quick look at your journal says everything one needs to know

about your political style. You've savaged me too in other threads. I feel no sympathy.

[Major Hogwash]

246. You can't feel anything anymore?

That's what they call "burnout".

If we lose in the fall, it will be because we will all have been written off as "cultists" - either "cultists" for Obama or "cultists" for Hillary.

[cornermouse]

247. Interesting twist

but I'm not burnt out and I have never used the "c" word. But whatever.

[ClericJohnPreston]

250. Oh Frenchie

savaging your inanity is so much a palliative for weathering the sheer madness and hyperbole of Obamites on GDP. Your posting style is the gift that keeps on giving. You reflect so very well on your candidate and the typical Obama supporter.

Well done, Frenchie. Well done!!

[Amimnoch]

241. Friends, Americans, fellow progressives.. Lend me your ears!

How have we fallen into such a state of horrid dispute?!?!

Please, lets take a step back and look at the whole picture!

Right now, we have not one, but two GREAT candidates as the frontrunners for our party! Yes, each one has flaws to all of our way of thinking, but what candidate has ever been 100% to any one persons ideals? Step back and see all of the POSITIVES each candidate offers (and yes, both do offer positives for our movement! Right now we are in the caucus/primary stage of the election process. Right now is the time to be building UP the candidate we most support, not tearring down the one we do not choose. Right now, the Repubs are tearring themselves to shreads for us! They have pretty much been stuck with a war mongering man that their most conservative base HATES! We can have this election on a silver platter! But, lets please stop tearring ourselves apart. Anyone who wants our aggression abroad to end cannot POSSIBLY want McCain as president. Right now, I do fully feel that EITHER of our two frontrunners has the real potential to beat the crap out of him in the general.

I understand why some people don't care for Senator Obama, I also understand why some people don't care for Senator Clinton. But, all of these attacks coming from each sides camp doesn't strengthen the one you support.. it tears at the great fabric that binds us all together!

Personally, come March 4th, because of my own political beliefs, i will tap the touchscreen in a vote for Senator Clinton for the Primary, but come the General election, I WILL tap the screen for EITHER of these great leaders vs. McCain.

[BooScout]

242. Whine whine whine

All you do is whine......unless of course you are attacking Hillary Supporters or Edwards supporters.

Don't blame us if you are reaping what you sowed.

[Perry Logan]

243. The Obama supporters can't even agree on their lies about Hillary. It's absolutely disgusting.

Any enterprising Republican operative is making copies of all the shit flung by Obamites here at DU, for future use against the Democrats. Obamites are doing the Republicans' work for them--for free--and they still think they're brillliant.

[robbedvoter]

245. If you dish it, you need to be able to take it as well.

Just because you had a positive thread for every 20 attack threads you started, doesn't give yo standing as a victim.
let's just contemplate your recent attacking Gavin Newsom for "making Kerry lose the election"
And accusing everyone who doesn't support your candidate for depriving YOU of your "hope"

[ClericJohnPreston]

251. Bingo!

But lets let Frenchie keep on posting whatever blather floats into her mind for that one second. It is sure to become the subject of her next post.