Honk (or at least K&R) if you think there *is* something "cultish" about the Obama campaign

[lwcon]

Naturally, there will be a counter-thread calling the "Hillbots" just as bad or worse. But that won't make it true.

I supported Edwards until he pulled out.

At first I thought I didn't really care which of the remaining two won, but realized I just couldn't stomach Obama's embrace of rightwing frames and unabashed attempts to out-Huckabee Huckabee as "God's candidate" as well as the embodiment of every martyr in history.[br />
With all that, I decided to haul in with Hillary. I'm no "Hillbot," in fact when the campaign began she was my single least-favorite among the Dems, but compared to Obama and his cheesy, mind-numbing chants, it became increasingly clear that I wanted a battle-hardened pragmatist instead of a self-styled son of god.

Sorry to harsh the mellow, Obama fans. Please carry on writing "there-is-no-cult" threads, and accusing people like me who think there kind of is one of being GOP stooges and/or corrupt, racist Hitlery minions funded and programmed by the monolithic Clinton machine (so monolothic, it's running out of cash and is no match for Obama's celebrity and politico endorsements). Yes, in the two weeks since I moved to the Clinton camp, I've come under the control of the Clenis. I'm telling you, it's worth all $80 million they spent studying it!

Finally, people who haven't lost their heads and have come to a reasoned decision to support Obama, this is not about you. The two candidates are awfully similar on policy, and unlike Michelle Obama, I have committed to supporting whichever one wins the nomination. But look at the guy next to you at the campaign rally. He's a little glazy-eyed.

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[Mojorabbit]

1. I don't care for either of them

but am leaning Obama because he has the least baggage and I want to win in Nov. Unless the polls change showing Clinton can beat McCain, then I will re-evaluate.

[H8fascistcons]

210. Hope Springs Eternal?

Obama also scares me but what is truely tragic is that Americans are so desperate to believe in someone that can turn around this country. Unfortunately I think we are at each others throats trying to decide which republican lite candidate to support. Lets just hope Obamas intensions are honorable, it's going to come down to creditability between the two. The candidate that has the closer ties to the military industrial complex (which either one that turns out ot be) will be our undoing.... Good luck America were gonna need it......

[lwcon]

220. The good news if either of them gets the White House

They won't be batshit crazy authoritarians like the Repubs.

Compromised, you bet.

I'm just hoping, in the 50% likely event it's Obama, he'll "deign" (Michelle's word) to get off Mt. Olympus and get real.

People around here and DailyKos keep acting like Obama's pitching a no-hitter and people like me are saying "no-hitter" and thus harshing the mellow. With Hillary, though, it's apparently OK to through the book at her (the Starr report, et al.). The result is, she's more grounded and IMHO more likable.

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[AndyA]

2. I'm having a very hard time deciding who to support at this point.

And yes, the Obama cult is very real. Reminds me of Jim Jones. People believe everything they are told, they question nothing. You'd think people would be smarter after 7 years of Bushco abuses. :shrug:

[adapa]

53. I chose hillary because her campaign is about what she can do for us

and she lays out the numbers- I like numbers, not so much for the verbage.

Plus & this is a big one for me- She's got the credentials to take McCain on the military/foreign policy area. Now, with Obama it' might not be an issue, he might be able to keep the Republican off the issue with the yack-yack. But Obama would still have to learn the issue - unlike Hillary.

[emilyg]

75. Agree.

[we can do it]

301. Me Too

[we can do it]

302. k&r -

[Voice for Peace]

149. Unfortunately this is just as true of Clinton supporters, as well as tons of people, everywhere.

"People believe everything they are told, they question nothing."

[IsItJustMe]

221. Isn' that the truth. My curse in life is that god gave me a mind and a conscience. Crititacal

thinking is profoundly missing in this country, and for all I know, maybe it's a part of the human condition. I don't know. But I am constantly confounded at how easy people will buy into utter bull shit.

[bagrman]

193. Whats going to change if The Clintons get elected? Hell she voted for the Patriot Act.

[lwcon]

226. Frankly, they're very similar on the policies

I came to Hillary's side (after Edwards folded his tent), because I found her more trustworthy (yes, that's subjective), more aware of what she's up against, her framing is better (she's readier to repudiate the Repubs than sing Kumbaya with them, not that she doesn't have a fair bit of that bug herself), and she's arcing leftward, while Obama is playing ever-more to the indies and presumed reformable Repubs.

My endorsement is here:
http://www.correntewire.com/vastleft_endorses_hillary_rodham_clinton

And my analysis of the candidates that preceded it is here:
http://www.correntewire.com/triangulation_the_next_generation

Have you voted in the primaries yet? Either way, I hope it does you proud.

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[RaleighNCDUer]

246. After 5 minutes there I clearly saw that Correntewire is a bullshit

site which is prone to making unsupportable statements by taking quotes out of context. A leftie Drudge, if you will.

Try getting some REAL sources.

[lwcon]

255. Whereas your statements are supported by...?

...?

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[lwcon]

257. Oh, and, are you like the other Obamaites who have decided...

... that Paul Krugman isn't a proper progressive because he's not drinking the Kool-Aid?

And because he let Corrente do the talking for him:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/29/i-wont-write-any-more-about-this/

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[RaleighNCDUer]

263. That's not talking, it's blathering.

All Krugman said was "I'm not talking about this" and since I have no fucking idea what "this" which he will not talk about is, and am linked to a wandering, dithering article which seems to have no point or focus, I will depend upon my own discernment.

BTW, I don't support Obama. I just don't support Hillary MORE than I don't support Obama.

Both are neolibs, neither are progressive except in certain narrow spheres.

Once again, I have no voice in the Democratic party.

[lwcon]

268. Wow, you can size up content...

... faster and more recklessly that Bill Frist diagnosed Terri Schiavo.

I guess the reason Krugman, Digby, and numerous other leading progressive writers linked to it is that they like pointlessness, wandering, and dithering.

As for having no voice, we're all like Howard The Duck, pal, trapped in a world we never made.

Neither of these finalists is close to my dream, but you go to war (and hopefully peace) with the compromised centrist you have, not the compromised centrist you wish you had.


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[nicc]

305. Whats going to change if The Clintons get elected? Hell she voted for the Patriot Act.

And Obama voted to reauthorize The Patriot Act. Your point?

[bagrman]

341. Neither one is quailified then to be Prez.

[dansolo]

212. I find this characterization very offensive, as well as counterproductive

What really pisses me off is that we are dismissing enthusiasm. When you call the supporters of one candidate "cult" members, you aren't doing the other candidate any favors, especially if these are people who don't usually involve themselves in politics. We should be nurturing these people as future Democratic voters, but instead you'd rather insult them.

[lwcon]

224. Are you enjoying the nuturing that Obama fans are coddling...

... Hillary with?

Did you find Obama's ad claiming that Hillary will "Say anything and do nothing" was making a cozy little nest from which to start her potential matchup with McCain? Did the trumped up charges that the Clintons were racists make you feel all warm and fuzzy about party unity? How about the day-and-night chorus of "She's unelectable!"

I wrote what I thought was a broad parody of the Hillary hate, and it was so close to the truth that half the people who read it thought it was real:
http://www.correntewire.com/why_i_hate_hillary_clinton (people especially took it as true on the Obama-crazy DU and DailyKos, where the relatively few Clinton supporters have seen it all).

Since I'm 1.5 weeks into the Hillary camp, I can tell you I saw nothing that compared to the meanness and delusional hero worship that characterizes much of the Obama talk, which I saw from the perspective an Edwards supporter.

And, puh-leeze, what a big fucking joke it is to claim that what we're griping about is "enthusiasm." Yeah, that's definitely what we're worried about. Read the examples throughout this thread of what turned us off Obama and his starry-eyed followers, and tell me it's just "enthusiasm" that we can't stand.

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[griffi94]

233. if these are people

who don't usually get involved in politics...well that kind of makes the case for the whole "cult" thingy
they love obama based on what... if they don't know his politics...it's because he keeps saying hope and change...and he's a bit
preachy......btw i'm not trying to do the other candidate any favors...i want the most experience person who can win and do a competent
job.....it would be nice if they matched my ideology 100% but after the last 8 years i'll be happy to start by getting even 50%
jmo but obama seems like a mostly empty suit that will be served up like chicken at a coyote picnic in nov...when the msm decides to start taking real shots at him.

[mwb970]

322. You certainly are sure of what "people" believe about Obama.

You lump all Obama supporters together in one group then characterize the entire group at once as unquestioning, mindless idiots.

Your statement itself seems mindless to me, not to mention extremely prejudiced and one-sided. What do you imagine you are contributing to the conversation with this stupid post? I'm curious.

[GMFORD]

344. That's ridiculous.

Yes, young people have jumped into this election cycle with all of the enthusiasm and energy we associate with young people. They cheer and make noise for their candidate...but that's not all they do. They volunteer, they go door to door, they make GOTV calls, they vote.

Obama spent years as a community organizer. He had to talk to people and convince them that if they want change in their lives (i.e. equal housing, an end to police brutality) they can't sit around and wait for someone else to do it for them. They need to get off the couch and pitch in to help. He has run his campaign the same way 'We are the change we've been waiting for'.

Clinton supporters don't approve of this. They don't approve of his charisma and they hate it that so many people have gotten off the couch to pitch in.

The question you have to ask yourself is do you want to elect Clinton who's claim is that she will go to Washington and work really hard on your issues while you go home and get on with your life? Or do you want to elect Obama who says if we want things to change we have to all be in on it? I'm sure Clinton intends to make good on her promises but can she do it alone?

In South Carolina, speaking to a predominately AA audience, Obama laid out what kind of changes he expects from those watching. He said the AA community must reach out to gays and Latinos, that AA fathers must take responsibility for their children and families. He said we know how to fix the public school system because there are lots of successful public schools all over the country. Using them as a model, he will provide funding and resources to bring all schools up to that level. But then he said it's up to the parents to get involved in their children's education too.

So is it that his message is too cultish or that his youthful supporters are too enthusiastic that bothers some people?

[K Gardner]

3. Another Edwards Supporter-Turned-Hate Spewer. Unfortunate. Guess you

missed or ignored all the posts this morning asking for an END to this cult bullshit.

[lwcon]

8. I guess you missed all the evidence that the adoration is out of control n/t

[K Gardner]

33. Out of Control = People Voting and Getting Involved in Politics.

[lwcon]

63. Um, no.

If you want to twist/ignore the nasty and obsessive behavior exhibited, for example here and DailyKos, then sure, you're right.

[stickernation]

291. Out of Control = People Thinking Pulling A Lever Is Politics

Politics in modern America means controlling the other Party's candidate. If I were Karl Rove, this is exactly how I would approach continuing the diabolical war in Iraq - I would create a fake candidate to touch all the classic liberal touchstones and "i'm not a racist!" insecurities and send him to battle his true enemy Hillary Clinton. I feel sad that I feel this way so strongly, but I was right about the 9-11 conspiracy and I believe I am right about this one as well. If I'm wrong, tell me why Zbigniew Brzezenski - the left wing of Satan Himself - is Obama's foreign policy advisor!!!!!

It comes as no surprise that Obama supporters are a lot like me. I am deep within Project Obama's "target addressable market".

Therefore, of course, I *like* a lot of Obama supporters.

However, this doesn't mean that I believe that the shiny object offered me is Jesus.

It is so cool that Obama is attracting new and young voters. God bless them for getting into politics for once.

It's just too bad that I can't trust Barack Obama at all, not with Zbigniew Brzezenski watching over his shoulder to make sure the bombing of the Middle East continues apace.

This is why we label Obama as a "cult" - not the masses, not the enthusiasm - the utter lack of responsibility for their own candidate, who takes marching orders on foreign policy dictated by The Ancestral Source Of The Neocon Agenda.

When Obama supporters fail to address this insanity, or fail to bring this terrorist to their candidate's attention as absolutely repugnant and unacceptable, it makes people think: these people don't question ANYTHING, do they? i mean, henry kissenger could be obama's foreign policy advisor and they wouldn't care. That is the message Obama supporters send with their continued blind support. If only ONE obama supporter would say: "hey man, I totally dig it, I'm going to send Obama an email to urge him to ditch ZB right away", maybe I would take you guys more seriously.

Yeah yeah, Mark Penn, yeah yeah. News flash: ZB is MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE. google it, in depth, if you want to really talk about this, as many obama fans i have spoken with have been like "he's a nice old man, he gave a nice-sounding speech a few years ago, chill out man". no, there will be no chilling out on ZB for this Edwards supporter. ZB is beyond the pale - the worst resurrection in US History since Sammy Hagar joined the remnants of Van Halen after David Lee Roth's departure. No, actually worse, because although Sammy was godawful, he didn't have the blood of millions on his hands when he was done. After all, you could always turn the dial to the hip hop station, jeez.

[DemBones DemBones]

373. Since ZB is advising Obama, people need to read about ZB, who

wrote a book called "The Global Chessboard," which advocated what the neo-cons in PNAC later advocated: the US creating a global empire so as to control oil and gas supplies. That's why we're in Afghanistan (natural gas pipeline) and Iraq, and rattling our sabers at Iran.

You might also want to look into Obama's mentor for the past 20 some years, his minister, who has some interesting friends.

Glad you posted this, people need to know about ZB; why not start a thread?
Of course, now I'm totally depressed. I think McCain would beat Obama but if he didn't, ZB would be in power again. And if McCain won, we'd have a prez who not long ago sang "Bomb Bomb Iran" at a public rally and thinks it would be fine to keep troops in Iraq for 100 years. Bad news either way. I can't believe that Hillary Clinton is now the most progressive candidate in the race but facts are facts.

[stickernation]

378. started a thread !

thanks for the encouragement :toast:

[DemBones DemBones]

382. Good deal! Got a link? I'm not seeing it. . .

:toast: to the thread!

[stickernation]

384. cool !

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4521511&mesg_id=4521511

good times :)

[RazBerryBeret]

209. I'm leaning to Obama....

and it's definitely NOT a cult thing. get a grip. I think transparency in gov't would be a good thing. I'm not sure I've experienced that in my lifetime. I'm not a big fan of the Patriot Act. I oppose the war. I want new people in the WH.....

I'm tired of people painting each other with the same brush.

And I'm tired of being talked down to. Don't fault me for wanting "better" ... I've never known people who think hope is a negative, till now....

[lwcon]

216. Perhaps you should re-read the OP

I am not talking down to people who choose Obama on the issues and are willing to listen to criticism.

And talk about talking down to someone! Here you are trotting out the lame-ass mini-meme that Obama doubters hate hope, change, unity, and ponies. While you're at it, don't forget "why don't support our troops" and "why do you hate America?"

I don't think "hope" is a negative. It's also not the sturdiest positive either. I prefer someone to be honest about the issues.

Instead of telling me to get a grip, look at some of the amazingly cultish examples noted throughout this thread, including Obama himself saying "At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you’ll say, ‘I have to vote for Barack'" and a commenter calling him our "savior."

Look at this brochure for crissakes:
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2008/01/obama_lit_in_south_carolina_pushes_back_on_false_muslim_smears.php

Nothing messianic going on there, for sure! Well, yeah, Jesus Christ called him to serve and he's the New Moses. But other than that, nothing.

And if you can wade through all the loud protests at DU that there isn't an Obama cult, see what happens when anyone challenges Obama about anything

Finally, please don't fault me for wanting better:

http://www.correntewire.com/building_a_better_obama_or_why_spielbergs_movies_arent_so_good_anymore

I may have to vote for this guy in November. If he and his camp could work on humility and honesty, maybe it will be a vote that's not so regrettable.


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[Jim Sagle]

245. Pssst....he IS evidence.

[cali]

9. Nothing new about it.

There's a long list of Edwards supporters who spewed hate when the supported him. Why would they change?

[lwcon]

28. Criticism = hate (at least that's how cultists see it) n/t

[cali]

32. Not at all.

Your OP isn't criticism. It's the work of a smear artist, cupcake.

I frequently criticize Obama. I've written about how I felt disgusted about the McClurkin thing, how I don't agree with his vote on the energy bill, how his lack of leadership on Iraq is disappointing- and much more. That's criticism. You? You're simply another little dabbler in shit. And you stink of it, as all such smear artists do.

[lwcon]

65. Thank you for your unity! n/t

[Politicub]

188. I didn't like the McClurkin thing, either

Still don't. For me, it was a key tell of Obama's judgment. I'll vote for the dem nominee, but I trust that Hillary has the GLBT community's back and would give us a seat at the table, while we would just be ignored in an Obama administration. But, either of those outcomes are preferable to supporting someone who is for a marriage amendment like McCain.

[ClericJohnPreston]

194. Oh look

it's the noxious poster named Cali...the one with the food obsession. I bet you never met a CUPCAKE you didn't like, right, cupcake?

[Donnachaidh]

207. ROFLMAO!!

Mr. Pot -- Mr. Kettle is on line two.

My irony meter just broke. Glad I kept my hipwaders on. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[jackson_dem]

266. lol yeah! Remember the thread claiming Edwards was a war profiteer?

Guess which smear merchant posted this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4104442#4104466

[desertflamingo]

249. just sayin'...

:puke: yeah you. that's how your post made me feel.

[stickernation]

294. Oh, "cupcake" eh ?

I feel impelled to defend the OP after seeing silly shit like this.

Your criticism of Obama hardly goes deep enough Cali. I've seen you around on these boards, with your single "obama is flawed for mclurkin but other than that he's perfect" deflection. I think you think you're really hip, don't you, with calling the OP a cupcake for implying that your own support is based on anything other than conditioning and insecurity.

Which you've so amply proven, cupcake.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

36. Self-delete

Moved the post.

[MADem]

145. Best post of the day!!! You nailed that definition!!! NT

[Skittles]

218. LOL: "hate spewer"

pleaase - it is not hatred to notice something creepy going on

[lwcon]

227. And what a typical cult reaction!

Criticism = hate or ignorance. Every damn time.


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[Skittles]

242. it is getting quite disturbing

they're starting to take on the attributes of freepers; in other words, the very type of ignorance they despise

[CyberPieHole]

4. Kick and recommend for the Cult n/t

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[murielm99]

156. We Clinton supporters are ashamed

to count him as one of us.

I am not sure that all the people here are really Clinton OR Obama supporters. Some of them just poke their heads out from under their bridges now and then.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

168. PURPLE NIKES AND KOOL AID FOR ALL!

[graywarrior]

5. If he wins the nominations will you be casting your vote for McCain?

Sounds like it.

[robbedvoter]

10. Did you read the OP? Even the last paragraph? Try again. Slowly now.

[lwcon]

Except that...

a) I explicitly said I'd vote for either
b) I explicitly said that they're similar on policy
c) (not that you'd know this) I am a lifelong Democrat dedicated to keeping this current generation Republican bastards out of office

Yet, I have heard many, many Obama fans say they wouldn't vote for Hillary, encouraging the meme that most Americans wouldn't vote for her, and Obama ran an ad saying "She’ll say anything, and change nothing." How's that for party unity?

Consider that you just told someone who promised to vote for Obama in the general election that you think he's going to vote for McCain. Does that tell you something about the selective, distorted perception going on?

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[thoughtanarchist]

6. Please delineate clearly

What differentiates a cult from a movement from a revolution and please explain how you came to the conclusion that the Obama campaign more closely resembles the former than the other 2 phenomena.

thx

[lwcon]

51. Wow, a really great question!

A movement and a revolution are "about" something. People rallying together to seek real change.

Movements and revolutions may well also have some of the following properties. But these are among the salient characteristics that a cult, as I understand them, includes:

* Adoration of an infallible leader, typically with religious overtones
* Mass chanting of vague, feel-good slogans
* Mythologizing of small and non-existent achievements and goals into legends and pipedreams
* Viewing all criticism as incorrect and a sign of "hate" (already been demonstrated a few times up-thread)
* Ends justify the means (as far as I know, this hasn't turned violent, but the vitriol spewed at Hillary Clinton, such as in the trumped up charges of racism and countless conspiracy theories about her "machine," is worrisome)

There is probably more, but that's some that springs to mind. Thanks for asking.

What bothers me most about the Obama cult is that we really have/had a movement growing in this country, as shown by the 2006 elections. Most Americans want the GOP to be kept from the levers of power. This should be an easy election for us. And running on a pleasing but wrongheaded campaign that says, "hey, both sides are to blame, let's just chill, and it'll all be good," a campaign that pisses away public dissatisfaction with the GOP is self-serving (because it's unchallenging) and wholly inappropriate for the times.

America is ready for change. But I feel he's co-opting that real desire into a brand that inflates a decent-enough (and likable-enough) politician into a god, and opiates people into forgetting the real changes that are needed. People are putting all their eggs into one mythic basket, when they were already prepared to reject the "values" of the Reagan Revolution -- thanks to some terribly hard-learned lessons.

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[thoughtanarchist]

91. By your standard...

All political campaigns are "cults".

What first made you interested in joining a "cult"?

Personally, I do not see Dem politics in this manner in any capacity, for any dem nominee.

But if you are committed to honest discussion, you have to admit that you have not described anything that is unique to any one campaign over another.

[lwcon]

114. Perhaps, you could say that all campaigns...

... might have brushes with such elements. But the religious fervor, and literal claims that he's a "savior," a "bodhisattva," and from his own brochure "Called to Serve" and on a mission like Moses' is well over the top of any campaign I'd want to be a part of.

Don't you get a little weirded out by all the groupthink posts like this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4352738

BELIEF leads to HOPE, HOPE leads to CHANGE

CHANGE for the Greater Good of all Americans.

BELIVE, HOPE, CHANGE.

That is our new motto.

Evryone repeat after me 3 times:

BELIVE, HOPE, CHANGE.
BELIVE, HOPE, CHANGE.
BELIVE, HOPE, CHANGE.

I support a new America of strength and unity led by Barack OBAMA.

And remember - YES WE CAN!

Is he running for president or My Little Pony?

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[MADem]

147. The My LIttle Pony fan is a bit of a spelling moron, too! Doesn't say much for the QUALITY of

support from that particular quarter, certainly.

Creepy earnestness.

[thoughtanarchist]

171. So you feel comfortable making that sweeping generalization based on a single DU post?

Lots of assumptions being made here.

Perhaps you have an ulterior motive?

[lwcon]

182. There are countless examples throughout DU and DailyKos...

... and many cited on this thread in my posts and others'.

Oh, please do tell about my ulterior motive, friend.

Apropos of nothing, have you ever seen Scientologists talking to a skeptic? They yell at him/her: "What are your crimes?" Just BTW.

When you're through speculating, you can see what my motives are:

http://www.correntewire.com/building_a_better_obama_or_why_spielbergs_movies_arent_so_good_anymore

I want strong candidates running good campaigns, and running the GOP out of town for a long, long time. Sorry if that motive displeases you.

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[thoughtanarchist]

195. I'm going with whomever the nominee is, and I do not speak down to fellow democrats.

Has is been mentioned that it may be time to become "concerned" that the behavior of the Hillary zealots will make her seem unpalatable to independents? No. It has not. Not that I have seen, anyway.

That is not a message I have seen from Obama supporters, my friend.

However, that IS the message that seems to be so highly coordinated from a contingent of Hillary supporters that it could have come straight from Rove's play book and it is ugly.

I would not do that to a fellow dem. I find it unsettling that you are willing to do so.

Why don't you just sit back and wait for the remainder of the primary results and stop pitting us against each other?

Your own overzealousness in supporting your primary choice could cost us the general.

Remember this thread you started if the time ever comes when you have to sit through a McCain inauguration speech. Way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, my friend.

[lwcon]

197. Another cup of STFU for someone who wants the Obama campaign to do better

Typical.

Look at the shit that is hurled at Hillary Clinton, including every page of the goddamn Starr report. Are you vigilant about that, or do you not worry that trashing her might enable McCain? How about 100,000 posts calling her a racist? How about feeding the valueless "Clinton Fatigue" meme. The mythologizing about the ominous "Clinton Machine." How about Obama running ads that claim she'll "Say anything and change nothing?" Is that all good for the party?

And, of course, when Obama supporters are finally confronted about the overzealousness of some of folks, all we've heard for days is complaining that Hiltery has a messianic cult that's as bad or worse. So much for not doing that to another Dem.

Yes, in my 1.5 weeks of being a Hillary supporter, Karl Rove got to me and brainwashed me to help McCain win the election. I just can't pull one over on you, can I?

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[thoughtanarchist]

215. Claiming that you want to "strengthen" the Obama campaign by insulting his supporters...

is like claiming you were just trying to "strengthen" your marriage when your wife catches you cheating.

Spare me the nobility of your stated intentions. Obama runs ads. Hillary runs ads. Big whoop. If you don't like what you see out there, why do you have to become what you don't like? We have a party that does that already. No need for another.

Seriously, who benefits from a dem wedge right now? Hillary? Fuck no! It's McCain that benefits. I'm not telling you to STFU, I'm saying that your message could be a lot more positive, a LOT more intelligent, and MUCH less divisive. Based on that, it is a valid question to ask your motives, because there is no strength to be had from driving your fellow democrats apart.

The fact is that you are on here flat out insulting a full half of your own party. You are doing it. Not some wild eyed nameless and faceless "cult member" Obama supporter.

You.

It's clear that you are not a good representative to be lamenting the "overzealousness" of anyone.

Again, way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Love your message. That'll pull us all together. Good job, friend.

Ignore list engaged.

[lwcon]

230. So sorry to see you go

I'll really miss your deep concern for party unity (as long as it's in Obama's favor).

Oh, and nice dogwhistle on the marital infidelity thing. Does the Obama campaign send you extra hope for change when you do that?

Trashing Hillary is of no consequence, but reservations and hope for improvement re: the Obama campaign puts McCain in the White House.

Without you around, I won't learn such pearls of wisdom.

:cry:

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[susankh4]

196. I think it's the Barney show....

he may be auditioning for.

But... don't worry. He will have HRC as a "hatchet man" while he sings unity songs with the GOP. She will get something done..... even if she has to be VP to do it.

[lwcon]

198. Hillary would definitely feel obligated to make Obama her VP

If it's the other way around, I'm not so sure.

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[susankh4]

380. I know that is the current media meme...

but I don't buy it.

The Dems have two minorities pitted against one another right now. Women and African Americans. If either one of them gets left out.... the DNC is in for a riot (or at least a mass defection.)

I'll lay money on it we get them both. And... right now that money is on BHO/HRC. (Tho I'd presonally prefer HRC/BHO.... for a host of reasons.)

[Aviation Pro]

140. In other words: Amway.....

....after observing the behavior of a rally for Senator Obama I can legitimately say that it reminded me of an Amway convention complete with a pithy catchphrase.

"Red hot and rolling!"
"Yes we can!"

[murielm99]

163. Look at some of the movements of the past.

The civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, the union movement, the Old Left, the Socialist Workers, Catholic Socialist workers movement, or the feminist movement, both the first and second waves.

All the movements had leaders. We can identify some of those leaders. Often, those leaders were murdered or jailed. Other people in those movements were there to take up the cause and take their places. None of the leaders made the movement about themselves.

I think there is some danger here.

Of course a political campaign is about an individual. I saw some danger in the adulation of RFK. It was very soon after the deaths of his his brother and MLK. Everyone was looking for a leader. I think the same is true now. This country is in bad shape. Many people are looking for simple answers. We need to be very careful.

[sandyd921]

222. Yes, exactly!

This is what has been most alarming to me as I have observed this movement or cult or whatever it is. People looking for simple answers at a time when much hangs in the balance for this country and the world.

[griffi94]

243. yes people are looking for simple answers

unfortunately those don't always exist and to insist otherwise is to deny reality.....also as much as i'm glad to see
obama bringing in people who are new to politics....those are the same folks who want the old quick fix simple answer...
again that doesn't exist in this situation....where the hell where these concerned citizens in 2000-2002-2004....they got interested when they felt the pinch....but it's ok because if they gather together and chant a bunch meaningless goddamned slogans at each other
everything will be fine.....hope change...i'm a uniter...and...well you know the rest

[susankh4]

292. This is on the money... IMO

And it explains all the "cult" accusations surrounding the Obama Campaign. The nation is desperate for a saint/hero/martyr. So we are creating one.

I really fear for Obama once he is elected. Which I do think will happen.... If he is not Prez he will be VP.

My money right now is on the BHO/HRC ticket. Reminiscent of the JFK/LBJ ticket. I think it's already in the offing....

[griffi94]

238. good lord

you just described the neocons

[stickernation]

295. precisely why

i have this disquieting notion that Obama is a Karl Rove plant.

let's see him ditch ZB and we'll talk - until then, forget it.

[JKaiser]

7. I agree that the Obama Campaign is like a cult

[rudy23]

11. It's ridiculous to criticize a politician for getting people TOO excited about them.

That would be like criticizing Tom Brady for being gluttonous for winning too many Super Bowls. That's what politicians are SUPPOSED to do to win elections. Get people excited about them.

Are we so cynical that when the political process actually engages people, we dismiss their fervor as "cultish"?

[Seen the light]

14. I wish we could recommend individual posts

Because that one would be a keeper.

[K Gardner]

35. Last line... SPOT ON !! And yes, this is exactly what HRC supporters are afraid of. We want to

keep the status quo, dontcha know?

[lwcon]

72. The status quo is the pretending away of the Repubs' sins

Putting that in new bottles isn't change, and it doesn't make me feel real hopeful.

How is Obama's "post-partisanship" any different from Bill Clinton's "third way"? It's still triangulation, and it still lets the late Mr. Reagan call the tune.

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[Tennessee Gal]

37. Excitement is one thing.

Overly zealous is another.

In South Carolina, Obama said this:
"At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack!'"

[SammyWinstonJack]

131. Creepy!

[MADem]

148. That's fucking SICK, frankly. What....HUBRIS!!! nt

[Jim Sagle]

247. Piph on his epiphanies.

[emilyg]

261. Get that light away from me.

[Cooley Hurd]

348. Link?

No offense, but your avatar illustrates that you just might NOT be very objective.:shrug:

[Democrat 4 Ever]

48. Political fervor is just dandy but when you have some supporters

tearing opening packs of Kool Aid, cutting it with razor blade and then snorting it with a straw you don't have fervor you have a cult. SOME of Obama's fans are so hardline addicted they will say or do anything to get him elected. Which, when you think about it, is exactly what they accuse Clinton of doing. Old repug trick - act offended by something your opponents supposedly has done when in actuality it is yourself perpetuating the "crime." How about talking about your candidates strong points? Can you do that without having to resort to attacks?

I will vote for Obama if he is the candidate but it won't be with eyes glazed over, mind numbing devotion worn by so many people on this board.

[rudy23]

78. Wow, combining the Cocaine meme, and the Jonestown meme! Gold Rovian star for you!

I thought the Starbucks/Messiah thing was tricky, but then, WHAM, Cocaine/Kool Aid. Nicely done.

[lwcon]

69. Do you criticize L. Ron Hubbard or Jim Jones for getting people too excited?

Just wondering if you think uncritical adulation is always a good thing.

[rudy23]

77. No, I wouldn't criticize them for getting people excited, I'd criticize their beliefs and methods in

doing so. Care to compare and contrast their methods with the Obama campaign's methods? You may be shocked to find that there are differences in their approaches and ideology.

[lwcon]

191. I am criticizing their beliefs and methods

1. I am criticizing the belief that shallow platitudes about hope, change, and unity should displace clear thinking and communication about the crimes and hazards of the conservative movement:

http://correntewire.com/obama_stump_speech_strategy_of_conciliation_considered_harmful
http://www.correntewire.com/i_know_why_the_caged_snuffleupagus_sings

2. I am criticizing their methods, which blatantly cast the candidate as a revival preacher at best and the new messiah at, I don't know, better than best:

http://www.correntewire.com/no_ponies_for_holden
http://www.correntewire.com/obama_inspired_by_exodus_me_not_so_much_how_about_you

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[stickernation]

296. Tom Brady and Bill Belichek *were* gluttinous.

Have you not heard of "spygate" ?

Such a poor choice of examples. I am a lifelong Cowboys fan and I am here to heartily bellow "GO GIANTS !!!" for having shown Brady and Belichek the real karma that falls to cheaters.

[cobalt1999]

12. I think there are people in both camps that have "personalized" the contest.

i.e. MY candidate can do no wrong; the OTHER candidate is (fake, evil, too old, too young, etc).

If they'd take the emotion out of it, these candidates are not that far apart.

[MethuenProgressive]

13. The cultish behavior is what it is.

No Obama supporter I know acts the way these DUbamas act.

[Tennessee Gal]

15. k & r

from another former Edwards supporter.

[HughMoran]

17. Not sure about the "cult" meme, but the rote repetition of certain phrases is disturbing

I'm starting to become fond of the :headbang: smiley for some reason.

[Laurab]

49. I'm an Obama supporter and I don't like them either

however slogans do not a cult make, and it's not going to change my mind about voting for Obama. I think some of it is a little silly, but I think the cult meme is even sillier.

[HughMoran]

56. You are very sensible

As I was alluding to, I think the cult meme is going way overboard IMO. I also agree that repeating the same tired slogans on a political discussion board that used to be known for somewhat intelligent discourse is really driving insane some of us who would prefer to discuss strengths, weaknesses and issues WRT our candidates, not how loud and often one can repeat "yes, we can" or "GOBAMA!!11!!"

[Laurab]

112. Hey, I think that's the first time anyone's ever called me THAT!

So I just had to respond. It could be that I'm older, but I have not once said "GoBama" or "yes we can", and when I get emails from Ted Kennedy and others, using those slogans, it looks even sillier.
I can see it at a rally, I suppose, but otherwise - I just want the guy to win. Of course, I do want CHANGE!!!!!1111

[renegade000]

90. i agree with you completely

i support obama, but mainly out of strategic concerns. i think all the slogans about change are a little cliche and silly. but i also think this cult meme has certainly taken the hysteria that has been going on DU to new heights. i cannot understand why we all seek to trivialize and eviscerate each other's support for excellent Democratic candidates. i like clinton, i like obama... and i see nothing to gain by tearing each other down.

[lwcon]

192. Thank you for at least listening

But I will tell you that a lot of us were thinking "cult" as this behavior began to unfold in recent months, so please don't think that we're just falling for some prevailing meme.

At least for me, I'm calling 'em as I sees 'em, and in the comments of the others who see the same things as I, they don't sound like dupes to me.

With all the public denial about the "c" word going on this week, I felt it was time I stepped up and said all this.

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[stickernation]

298. master of puppets rocking on my mp3 player.

controlling faster.
obey your master.
your life burns faster.
obey your master.
master.
master of puppets is pulling your strings.
twisting your mind and smashing your dreams.
blinded by me you can't see a thing.
just call my name and i'll hear you scream.
master.
master.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. I didn't before but after viewing threads by some seasoned DUers I 'm starting to believe it

[durrrty libby]

19. Don't forget..he wants to "Create a Kingdom on Earth"

Can't stand listening to his preacher like speechifying. It is a real turn-off

His endless droning on is tiring. Guess I can't be indoctrinated

[Straight Shooter]

20. cheesy, mind-numbing chants

You nailed it. Don't forget people crying when he speaks.

He's a totally manufactured package. Axelrod has a strong background in advertising:

"From the development and analysis of research and targeting; to the production of written materials, radio ads, and television commercials; to the efficient deployment of media dollars through strategic time-buying; AKP&D Message and Media helps campaigns plan and execute their most effective case."

http://www.akpmedia.com/services/index.html

"Their most effective case." In other words, buy Obama, it's the brand that will make you feel good. Axelrod is the "A" in AKP.

[gaspee]

70. What do you expect

From the MTV generation (mine) or the American Idol generation.

The "People" want a star. I don't get why people follow celebrity news and I don't get how people can freakin *cry* at a campaign speech (unless sharing their own or someone else's personal tragedy.)

It's freakin weird is what it is.

[Critters2]

93. The crying is just creepy. nt

[fortyfeetunder]

253. I don't think the crying is creepy

After 8 years of what we've went through, some can be moved to tears over the prospect of a candidate who promises a different future.

[mwb970]

328. Why is crying at a political speech "just creepy"?

Politics stirs up the emotions because so much is at stake and because one's own life is affected by the leaders we elect. We have had seven years of sociopathic, lying criminals running the country. It feels like we have been walking with a 50-pound weight on each leg for years and years. Then someone comes along who is in a position to replace them, who offers hope instead of fear, who offers success instead of endless failure. His oratory brings tears of joy to the eyes of those who had almost given up on America. Finally, finally we have something and someone to feel good about again.

And you find this "just creepy"? You find this to be a "cult"? Excuse me, but exactly what is wrong with you people? This is what we have been waiting for. Why are you so determined to undermine it? Whose side are you on, anyway?

[lwcon]

336. Three questions

1. Do you ask the many full-on Hillary haters on DU which side they are on? Or is that only for people who pledge to support Obama if he wins the nomination but have some reservations about his campaign's dynamics.

2. Have you noticed that Obama's rhetoric endlessly glosses over and diverts attention from the real problems of today? Claiming the problems are "partisan bickering" instead of a runaway conservative movement that's raped our country. I don't feel good about that. That's not what I've been waiting for

3. Have you looked at the numerous examples of cultishness cited throughout this thread? Could a candidate promising epiphanies and saying he was called to serve by God, supporters who literally call him "our savior," and who mindlessly conflate his humble achievements with MLK's successes and sacrifices, and so on and so, could those ever be a sign that this has left the realm of politics and entered into a cult of personality?

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[mwb970]

374. I think I'll pass on replying to this post, sorry.

This thread has 375 replies right now, of which 86, or about 23%, are from you! (I just counted.) Someone who posts 86 posts in a single thread is perhaps a bit overly emotionally invested in that topic, no? I've never seen so many posts from one person in a DU thread!

Your snide tone is not appreciated, by the way, and it makes me not want to respond to your questions.

Tell you what. I'll concede that you are totally, completely right about everything if you will please stop posting to this thread and move on. Deal?

[lwcon]

375. Sorry for answering people's questions and comments

Hats off to you for not answering three substantive questions based on your previous comment. If people answered each other's questions, where would this discussion board be?

I wish I could be as non-obsessive as you are, with your painstaking statistical analysis of my posts in this thread.

Oh and my deep apologies for replying again and putting you back on spreadsheet duty.

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[robbedvoter]

21. I've seen many chanting posts here "HOPE IS CHANGE, CHANGE IS HOPE"

not to consider the possibility. Many of Obama's supporters blogged, wrote (LA Times today)about similar feelings - and asked fellow supporters to tone it down - so as not to hurt the campaign. As an outsider I can't help but agree with them.

[jonnyblitz]

55. the chanting posts are bizarre and are eye- rolling worthy for sure.

the fired up. ready to go. crap. when i clicked on the links that DUers provided to the cult articles and blog entries I noticed that many complaining of this behavior were fellow Obama supporters.

[lligrd]

22. I Think There Is Something Very Childish About Calling

political support for any candidate a cult. Just my opinion.

[lwcon]

27. What if is like a cult. Is it still childish then? n/t

[thereismore]

23. From cult to "cultish." Getting weaker and weaker. nt

[burythehatchet]

25. Actually "cult inducing programs"

[lwcon]

76. I'm sorry

Would you be happier if I started breaking Godwin's law?

[lumberjack_jeff]

213. Cult related program activities n/t

[burythehatchet]

24. Sorry to harsh the mellow, Obama fans

Delusional much?

[Clintonista2]

26. HONK! K&R!

[NoPasaran]

29. It has its similarities to the Dean campaign

And we Deaniacs certainly had our cultish moments. But the real cult action this year is the Ron Paul movement. Those people really are koolaid zombies.

[gaspee]

73. Oh yeah

Ever see an article about Paul on the net? It doesn't matter where it's posted, there are instantly hundreds and sometimes thousands of Paul supporters there either attacking (usually personally) or cheering the author.

The Obama supporters are sort of that way too now.

[NashVegas]

74. Dean Bobbleheads

I still have a bag of "Bush scares me - vote for Dean" Halloween buttons.

The difference, I feel is that our cult was more *culture* - it was coming from the bottom up, and he tapped into it & let people do what they would. I think Obama's campaign is more involved in directing what goes on. Wasn't there a newspaper article the other day that illuminated how Obama campaign leaders are encouraging supporters to come up with conversion stories?

The final reason Obama's people, at least in *this* forum, fit the model is because of their cries of persecution. Remember what the Kool-aid was for in the first place?

[murielm99]

250. I think there were some major differences.

A lot of those differences were because of Dean's character.

My son was in college when Dean ran. He is a Democrat, but he is moderate. (I still don't know how that happened in this lefty family).

My son would talk to me about Dean supporters and complain that he found some Dean supporters, the ones who were his age, to be cult-like in their behavior. I heard that from other people, too.

If that was so, Dean was too brainy and experienced to let it continue. He turned his organization into Democracy for America. He became the head of the DNC and used his brains and talent to help implement the fifty-state strategy. His campaign probably came up with those bumper stickers and buttons that said, "Dated Dean, Married Kerry."

Dean did not allow everything to be about him.

I don't think Obama is enough of a team player, or experienced enough to do the same things Dean did. I think if he loses the nomination, he will allow his supporters to run rampant and fracture the party. He does not know how to control them now. What will happen down the road, if he loses?

What will happen if he wins? Bush has already given us the unitary executive. I don't think, with a majority in Congress and a charismatic leader, that that is a good mix. It could lead our side to commit many abuses, too. I think we need to be careful. Too much power corrupts anyone.

[amborin]

285. excellent post

so far, obama's campaign is about him....

and i, too, fear the backlash if he' not nominated

and the outcome if he is nominated and elected....

the seeming lack of accountability and squirming is also bothersome

[calico1]

30. Honk! n/t

[incapsulated]

31. I'd rather be called a cultist than a repuke neo-con, which is what I get

From the lovely Obama fans.

Usually for stating something that has zero to do with any policy matter, they just don't like it.

UNITY, HOPE, CHANGE!!

[rodeodance]

68. I have gotten that also over and over--Thread stopper as any sembance of a discussion

shuts down. Suspose that is thier strategy!!

[IndianaJones]

34. Branch Obamians. nt.

[VotesForWomen]

108. 'Heaven's Gate' came to my mind. nt

[Hepburn]

38. Was this bullshit really necessary?

Maybe....some of this effort should go to attacking McCain instead of a Democrat?

Just a thought....:eyes:

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

39. I've seen posts titled "Why do you fear hope?" multiple times here

They're so drunk on kool-aid, they don't even realize how creepy they sound to people outside their cult.

[incapsulated]

41. Because only Obama fans believe in hope or change or anything good

This really is the definition of a cult.

Us = Good

Not Us = Bad

WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

[Mark Twain Girl]

64. Actually, this is a fair point

There are some people using the cult thing to score political points, and that's to be expected -- but it doesn't mean it's a completely unfounded critique. This is a behaviour I've noticed, the overly rigid good/bad, us/them, new/old phenomenon. The drawing of the magic circle of correct behavior, that kind of thing. I've seen posts suggesting there's something *wrong* with Clinton's supporters, there's something *wrong* with supporting Clinton, as in "how could you DO that?!" That's disturbing. Clinton has always been, to my mind, a typical middle of the road liberal Democratic Senator in our historical moment. Waaaaay to the right of me, but I'm part of the loony radical leftwing fringe, or so I gather from my teevee.

The idea that supporting Clinton is somehow beyond the pale raises my warning flags. It's so over the top, especially given the closeness of BO and HRC's voting records and policies.

[incapsulated]

99. Exactly. I didn't feel any hostility toward Obama supporters before

The attacks on the character, integrity and dem "purity" of Clinton supporters was and is still relentless.

Now we have it reduced to for or against *insert happy word* as if you cannot be turned off by Obama without negating hope itself. As if he *is* hope itself. Or change itself. It's just.... bizarre and getting very tired and frankly they have every "cult" insinuation coming to them, they have earned it.

Clinton supporters are so used to being called every name in the book here, it's amusing to see the crying and carrying on over this because it strikes a nerve and they aren't used to anything sticking to such a carefully crafted image, which has been celebrated and pushed by the media, frankly.

I was one of Hillary's harshest critics here. I didn't come to support her until late in the game. I have no illusions about Clinton. She is a politician. You go with what you have and it's a pragmatic decision for me.

The thing is, it seems Obama is very busy portraying himself as not a politician when he most assuredly is. And a lot of people believe it.

[Mark Twain Girl]

105. "As if he *is* hope itself." Yes, that's it exactly.

The whole "why do you hate inspiration?" "What's wrong with hope?" "oh that's right, you want us to be cynical and bitter!" "why are you so threatened by the movement, you must be an angry old thing" really bothers me. It suggests that if you don't care for one Senator's candidacy, you hate hope. You hate to be inspired. You get called bitter and old, *simply because you are not inspired by the object of their admiration.* It's as if your lack of inspiration is offensive, unacceptable. As if you can't possibly have hope or inspiration unless Barack Obama grants it to you. As if no hopeful vision of the future of this country ever could be imagined, if it doesn't revolve around Obama.

I've tried to keep quiet about this, and really, until very recently, I assumed I was the only one who felt this way. But you put into words something I've been processing for some time now.

[lwcon]

116. Bingo, again! n/t

[waiting for hope]

265. Doesn't this all sound eerily familiar?

It's Bush Redux 2000 and that is scary.

[lwcon]

115. Bingo. n/t

[Straight Shooter]

44. One Barack-lover said, "If you don't support Obama, you strike at the heart of America."

:wtf:

[lwcon]

81. My favorite one from this week...

“Obama is the savior of America. Don’t be so fast to crucify him.”

[smalll]

225. That was the best. /nt

[LostinVA]

45. That phrase is something I do NOT like

Nor, the "O-mericans" thing this morning. The first time I saw the thread, I was like, "Oh brother." But, then, I started thinking about it, and it really started bothering me.

[Cameron27]

52. Wasn't that thread pathetic?

I didn't want to post anything that would kick the damned thing up. O-vomit.

[SammyWinstonJack]

132. "O-vomit" LOL

:rofl:

[okasha]

205. That post inspired me---

to call its author a lobatObama.

[Straight Shooter]

62. "O-mericans" = "It's morning in O-merica."

Barack is Reagan's campaign redux. Their campaign slogan should be "If it feels good, believe it!"

[ExPatLeftist]

327. Then why not...

...address those specific INDIVIDUAL posters instead of trying to make the actions of a few somehow paint the entire group with the "nut" brush? (Honestly, logic should be a mandatory subject in schools.)

This whole thread is just ridiculous. Spare the phony "concern" about these "poor, brainwashed souls". Give me a break. And who cares whose supporters are more nuts, more abusive or more "brainless". No one really believes that Obama or Hillary will set up a national cult so the "fears" about this "cult" are seen for exactly what they are - feigned "concern" caused by either going too far oneself into drama-land or a cynical (and lame) attempt to influence opinion. This is just something to try to stick the opposition with. And the hypocrisy is overwhelming - the OP seems mainly concerned that the brainwashed Obamaites are focusing on sloganeering rather than the issues. And what is this thread about? The issues? Hardly. It is about trying to portray a few individual (possibly over-) enthusiastic supporters as "cult members". Wow. Is that the important issue you are so concerned about? Let's talk about the differences in policy of these two people, not focus on whether we can possibly manipulate some easily manipulated souls into believing that the asinine posts of a few individuals should somehow reflect on the candidate they support.

There is no "cult", there are no "bots", there are only two candidates and a vast array of different individuals that support them. The candidates use somewhat different methods of campaigning, but are really more similar than any of these reactionary "sky is falling" posters (like the OP) would ever care to admit - out loud. Both candidates have supporters that are nuts and go too far. BOTH. You want to join them? Post some more crap like this. But no matter how many nutty supporters each has, the fact remains that those supporters act on their own and any attempt to have the actions of an independent supporter reflect on the candidate only shows the immaturity, illogicality and ulterior motives of the person making the claim.

I for one care a lot about what the candidates would do if elected. I could give a rats ass about how low supporters on either side are prepared to go, because I am not under the delusion that the supporters somehow reflect the candidate. There are nuts and children in adult bodies everywhere, the fact that some of them happen to support a political candidate matters not one whit to me.

How about let's grow the hell up and talk about the issues rather than which candidate has the more nutty supporters? Because as it is now, the answer to that question is a resounding, "BOTH of them".

[oasis]

40. It's time for Obama's Moonie-like minions to do some soul searching. (eom)

[joeybee12]

42. k&r

[Occam Bandage]

43. Cult to Cultish to Cult-related program activities.

[intaglio]

46. A look at the signs of a cult were posted on the thread below

Posted Here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4472184 someone posted the warning signs of a cult. I looked at it and saw at once that the Clinton campaign is a better fit than the Obama campaign.

To save you clicking here is my checklist

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. HRC - check, BHO pass

No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. HRC - check, BHO - pass

No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. HRC - check, BHO - pass

Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. Clintons - check, Obama - pass

There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. HRC - unknown, Obama - unknown

Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. HRC - check, BHO - pass

There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. HRC - Check (mainly from RW shills), BHO - pass

Followers feel they can never be "good enough". HRC - unknown, BHO - maybe

The group/leader is always right.HRC - yes, BHO - pass

The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - Check

Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration. Clinton supporters - unknown, Obama supporters - unknown

Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens. Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - check

Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution". Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - check

Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior. Clinton supporters - pass, Obama supporters - pass

Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - check

Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - check

A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - pass

Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.Clinton supporters - unknown, Obama supporters - unknown

Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.Clinton supporters - check, Obama supporters - pass,just

Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.Clinton supporters - unknown, Obama supporters - unknown

[madmom]

57. I find a few of your checks and passes to be wrong IMO

[lwcon]

83. To quote the followers of a guy who "likes Barry"...

Ditto.

[Deny and Shred]

103. This is Bush far more that Hil or Obama.

Actually, it's Adolf to a tee, but that is a separate website entirely.

They are two candidates who are caught between political expediency and principle. Every Prez hopeful sees what has worked on the populace in recent elections, and tries to find a winning recipe. The soundbyte political landscape requires 'cult-like' refrains, and the GOP has shown highlighting the religious overtones can transform the masses into a flock full of fervor the spread the message. It seems any candidate that only focuses on issues will poll in the single digits.

Whether it's 'morning in America, I feel your pain, compassionate conservatism or 1000 points of light (which actually wasn't a winning slogan)', American politics is stuck with a degree of issue avoidance through sound bytes, and banter that passes for vision.

I still get bile from thinking about J. Kerrey in '04 who understood none of this and let * keep the White House. Anything but that again, please. I can tolerate overzealous supporters, so long as either Dem wins, clears out the appointed Bush lackeys where possible, and begins to mend the gaping wounds BushCo has wrought on this nation.

[dmallind]

47. Let's try this another way

Why is this bad?

Obama excites people. He has that kind of natural gift. Should he not use it? Should he say "Don't vote for me unless you can diagram the federal budget outlay and inflow to within +/- 3% and explain the macroeconomic impact of mandating health insurance with a population that is 15% uninsured, identifying the aggregate winners and losers at the micro level while you're at it. Oh and produce a 5000 word essay on the constitutional conflict over federal powers without references too".

Let's say the worst is true and there is an Obama cult - and this Obama voter for one is very willing to acknowledge that there is a definite personality-driven angle to his campaign and definite unrealistic expectations from many Obama supporters, both of which are criteria applied to cults. Why do we care? Do cult follower votes not count? Does getting 5% cult worship in OH and moving a 47% loss say to a 52% win and securing the presidency for the Dems hurt or help?

Even if the wildets thoughts of cults are true the only disadvantage is for some seriously disappointed cult followers when Obama is inevitably demonstrated to be unable to reform Congress into an Elysian haven for altruistic philosopher-kings and usher in an era of noble and polite cooperation in DC. He's not saying he can and if a sizeable number of people are stupid enough to infer that he can from some actually quite standard rhetoric about changing teh tone in politics, then they have only themselves to blame for their stupidity, which stupidity will have already done great work in securing a Dem administration.

Cults become dangerous when the cult leaders misuse their charisma and incite their followers to create mayhem - not because some people are credulous about charming personalities. I don;t think even the most hardened HRC partisan can honsetly imagine OBama trying to create a personal Praetorian Guard of berobed acolytes and declare himself Emperor Generallissimo Barack Father of His Country President for Life Obama so why is it a bad thing that he inspires a devoted following again?

[lwcon]

86. I'd remind Obama follower Stevie Wonder that he once said

"When you believe in things you can't understand than you suffer. Superstition ain't the way."

Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it because I think religion is a dangerous crock, and this smells like religion to me. Frankly, it looks, feels, and tastes like religion, too.

When people treat you like you walk on water, you just might not make very good decisions. You'll live in fear of the spell ever wearing off. You get convinced that the people around you are "the best and the brightest." I simply can't see that this dynamic will allow Obama to be the good president that I really do think he's capable of being.


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[F.Gordon]

50. I attended "Obama Camp" Tuesday evening (caucus)

As we walked up to the building there were two groups of kids huddled outside in the cold chanting (yes, chanting) "Obama, Obama, Obama...."

My first thought after seeing/hearing this and the aggregate of the events surrounding the entire evening was that I wasn't attending a Presidential nomination caucus... I was attending a 'Religious Revival'.

I "googled" Religious Revival and I thought it was rather ironic that a certain ad popped up on one page...
:rofl:

[lwcon]

59. Too funny! n/t

[SaveOurDemocracy]

61. LOL ... now THAT's funny!

[ProgressIn2008]

54. Heh, great post and I hear you. But to be fair, it would be easy to turn this around

It wouldn't take a lot to change the narrative from "O-merica!" and "Obahama Obama mania!" headlines.

Pigwidgeon had a great post today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4477040

Funny, and true -- brought out some genuinely good points. Cut down on the preachifying, the big stadium events that invite interpretations of cult of personality. The young speechwriter Obama has is great (can you imagine how good he'll be in 10 yrs or so?), but the speeches are reaching the point of self-parody, and people are noticing. It's time to move to a new place. Instead of standing before the adoring croud, imparting pretty pearls of wisdom, try a few well-covered town hall events. Actual conversations with working moms, unemployed workers, seniors worried about stretching that check. Talk about healthcare. That's key for me. Healthcare. This will help take away my nagging doubt: the conversation has been steered by Obama & Co. in this very direction so that the focal point is the phenom of campaign itself. That allows him to be all things to all people. If he gets down in the trenches with issues of choice, healthcare, immigration and economy, he can no longer be all things to all people, a cipher mirror of buzzwords. That would be good. He'd lose some of the fanbase, but he'd gain some dedicated people in the process.

More substantive discussions, rather than linking to the website and decrying Skeptics of The Link to the Official Site as heretics.

Less "but Hillary does it too!" Obama is supposed to be better than Hillary in every way, right? Saying that he's just like Hillary shouldn't be an argument, then.

More readiness to hold Obama accountable. We're looking for a head of the executive branch here, and the only hope for good governance is the readiness to hold politicians' feet to the fire, constantly and relentlessly. The American political system is not grounded in the idea of blind trust in the good nature of leaders. It assumes that power, left unchallenged, begets tyranny, and I think that's a good assumption. When it's a movement built around a particular personality, and claims to his extraordinary personality and charisma, that does not invite legitimate scrutiny and criticism.

I think I see a few Obama supporters trying to shift the debate -- most still are fixated on Hillary Clinton, but I've seen some try to generate conversation on a policy or two. I don't mean, "look at all these pages of substance on his website, you people just DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE!" I mean, "I think Obama has a good agriculture policy." I think this is a necessary process. Maybe this is a good time to get this out of the way -- we need to start pinning down the implications of an Obama administration, since I think that's what we're being given.

It really wouldn't be hard to dispel this cloud. I'm unenthusiastic about Obama, to put it mildly, but I will vote against the Repubs, no doubt about it. SCOTUS takes the luxury of principle or protest away. So if this is inevitable, every news cycle that stresses hype over substance is a loss. If the substance really is there, there's nothing to worry about. Right? :)

[amborin]

283. good post...obama's main focus has been obama himself

obama, the personality, is the focal point of obama's campaign

"change" is just the word 'change' itself--empty of substantive content or details

that's *one* of the things that's so disturbing about him

[amborin]

284. excellent post

[gaspee]

58. I've been saying it

Since before it was a meme. And I'm still voting Edwards!

[lwcon]

118. Me, too.

I've been saying it before it was a meme. But about 1,000 posts over the last couple of days say that we're being programmed by the GOP/Hitlery campaign/Pro-Hillary media (!?) to repeat it.

Or it's just hate.

Or we don't want someone to be an effective politician.

Or Hillary's as bad or worse.

Or whatever.

I appreciate all the rec's. Nice to know someone else sees what I'm seeing. But, alas, it's just a brick wall on the "side" -- the side that I wish felt like it was the same side as I'm on -- that I wish would recognize that they're scaring people away.

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[SammyWinstonJack]

134. Me too. Still voting for Edwards.

[Jamastiene]

60. I brake for no one, but I'll honk for this thread.

K&R'ed...

[Tatiana]

66. Great topic. We've certainly never discussed this topic before!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4448476

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4451617

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4456220

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4448390

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4456291

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4445389

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4472387

[lwcon]

89. Thank you for the helpful round-up

Care to do one of all the "No way is this a cult" threads?

Take it slow, I don't want you to get carpal tunnel.

[Tatiana]

101. Do you think this thread brings anything positive to the DU community?

What is the purpose of this post?

[lwcon]

120. Yes. It's an intervention.

There is a real problem here of wild-eyed, religion-like overzealousness that is downright frightening to some fellow Democrats (like yours truly and many respondents) and which may wear on those precious indie and theoretical repentant Repubs over the rest of the campaign. A religious, cultlike fervor that can brook no dissent or even the barest criticism. And it bodes ill for Obama's ability to recognize when he's screwing up.

There's about a 50% chance that Obama will be my candidate in November. I want him to be a better candidate and a better president.

I explain my position more fully here:
http://www.correntewire.com/building_a_better_obama_or_why_spielbergs_movies_arent_so_good_anymore

[Tatiana]

130. Unwarranted.

You do understand that those same thoughts apply to supporters of every candidate.

Biden
Edwards
Kerry
Dean
Clinton
Bush

I have observed it for a while now; at least since I first came to this board in '01. It is very unwise to paint with a broad brush. Unless you are scheduling rotating interventions with all supporters of Candidate X or Candidate Y, you are not the court-appointed political therapist and should just let people get over it (which most do).

It's a shame when this is the way we treat fellow Democrats; when we can't discuss or debate the issues and instead resort to personal attacks and slander. Shame on you.

[lwcon]

142. Thanks for being the court-appointed shamer

Where is the personal attack and slander, I ask you?

I write this because I'm weary of seeing substantive debate after substantive debate derailed by moronic, kneejerk claims of hate, racism, etc., etc.

When I was pushing Edwards I just didn't experience the same kind of "religiosity" from the HRC supporters as I got from the BO ones. When I watch her on TV, her rallies don't smack of that either, but his certainly do.

After seeing dozens of threads deriding the idea that there was cultish behavior among some Obama fans, I thought it was time to write this post.

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[rodeodance]

67. Welcome to Sen. Clinton' camp. YES SHE CAN, YES WE CAN~

[madfloridian]

71. I am a cultist.

First for Dean, now Obama.

If this is the best the Hillary campaign can do, then shame on her.

This is even being frontpaged at DU now....cultism.

[Blondiegrrl]

211. Ha! Great post.

Same here.

I backed Dean ... now I'm backing Obama. I like a candidate I can get fired up about and actually want to vote FOR, as opposed to merely casting a vote against the opposition.

If that's considered cultish, then so be it.

[lwcon]

235. No, that's not being cultish

See examples around the thread of the kind of cultish behavior that have been a big turnoff to those of us who may become reluctant supporters of Obama in November.

As I said in the OP, this criticism is aimed at the subset of Obama supporters who are creepy about it. People who call him our "savior," who think (like he does) that he's on a mission from God, that he's on par with Martin Luther King, Jr., and that he's 100% beyond reproach. People who think that "hope/change/unity" is a magic incantation. People who freak out at dissent about The Anointed One (but who think nothing of trashing the Clintons by any means possible)

They're out there, and they're scaring us.

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[ExPatLeftist]

333. OK...

It "scares" you. (Damn some people have a low fear threshold.)

And now you've said so many times. Others are stating their opinions (like assholes, everyone has one) as well, which is their right. But how many times do you need to say this? You've said it. We are all aware of your knee-jerk, irrational and largely unbelievable "fear". If you have nothing new to add, why not drop it so that we can focus on what really matters - the candidates themselves and their positions, rather than more proclamations of "fear" about the supporters of a candidate?

This is just getting ridiculous.

[JackRiddler]

79. All campaigns have a cult element.

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. Kick & R

for "cultish" behavior.

[tomg]

82. I think you might be confusing cultish with

charismatic. Obviously, the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but neither are they synonymous. And charisma is not in and of itself an endorsement or a condemnation. I am still undecided( I went from Kucinich to Edwards to ?). Still, I remember hearing King speak, and Bobby Kennedy speak and quite a few others. I have to admit, at 18 - 19 I believed. Heavy Duty. Well, add 40 years on and I listen to Obama and I really want to believe ( which is not to say that I do, and a big chunk of me has to step back and not be cynical). There really is a sense that "we can change the world, rearrange the world" - and some of you will know where the quote comes from. All of my kids support Obama ( 27, 27, 23, and 14 - the 14 year old actually is the most enthusiastic and politically active). My wife is Hillary.

Charisma is something that a group assigns to an individual. Well, at 18, 19, 20, and up, younger people need to hope and to believe that it is there moment and that they are part of something greater than themselves. Particularly after the absolute despair of the past few years. That is going to create a charismatic situation. The idea that somehow or other such enthusiasm, belief and loyalty - particularly as evidenced by young, idealistic voters - is cultish in and of itself is, I think, a bit over the top.

Incidentally, when did all of this "Obama cult" stuff start? I didn't check in at DU for a couple of days.

[lwcon]

97. The "cult" discussion has recently broken wide

But some of us have been creeped out by that behavior for much longer.

All I can say is walk in my moccasins and those of K&Rers.

We're not jealous or troubled because the man has charisma. We're freaked out because he's hypnotizing people with meaningless pap.

Look, I plan to vote for the guy if he gets the nomination, and I was pretty far from a born Hillary supporter.

What do you call it when you encounter supporters who say things like... and I grabbed literally the very first post I saw on GD:P just then:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4480326

to denigrate those of us who cross their fingers but believe, in order to install 8 more years of pretty much the same shit is as big a crime as i have seen since 2000. take heart obamanation. there is nothing wrong with you. there is nothing wrong with coming together for a better world. it is those that do not see the status quo as a crime that are sick.

So... the combination of crossing your fingers and believing is something meaningful; people who don't prefer Obama are committing the crime of the century; there is nothing wrong with any Obama supporter; people who don't prefer him are sick.

That's pretty healthy, eh? Spend a few minutes perusing DU and DailyKos and tell me that you can't find dozens of posts and comments far more over-the-top than that one.

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[tomg]

119. Thanks for a reasonable and careful

reply. Normally I am pretty glued to DU ( and DailyKos, though less so), but, as I said, the past few days I've been away. I think one of the things was the sheer level of venom between the camps, and this seemed to be one more instance.

I will check out the posts as you mention, but - even with that said - it could be argued that some of my behaviour and idolization of some political figures in the 60s, the same kind of "we are the troops who will save the world," and the Manichean-like us vs. them thinking could be construed as indicative of a personality that was clearly open and ready for a cult replete with a messianic figure. And obviously, I am not suggesting that any of the people I was ready to go to the barricades for were of that ilk. However, if the Weather Underground was not cultish, I don't know what was. But even more so, figures from Lyndon LaRouche to Guru Maharaji ( which is where Rene Davis wound up for awhile) were pretty abundant, particularly after the end of the war movement when there was a lot of frustrated, Utopianist energy that had virtually nowhere to go. The war was over but the world was, in too many ways, the same.

I have noticed that a lot of hard-core Obama followers have a single-mindedness in the need to convince me that Hillary supporters do not, but I was ( and still am, to an extent) chalking it up to style, age, energy levels. Still, it seems that right now we are at a moment that is dicey ( and not simply in the sense of getting the current crew of psychotics out of power).

I would not say that - from what I have seen, generally - that there is a cult or at this point the makings of a cult. I do not believe that on Obama's part there is attempt to do that - he is a little too busy. There could very well be a fairly high proportion of young, idealistic, highly energized individuals bent of making a change, who see things in terms of "the enlightened" and "the minions of darkness," and the moment being now, and Obama is the one. And probably a lot of these folks are in the trenches for him and in his organization. While that is not a cult, it could easily have a higher proportion of people who are, quite frankly, looking for a Messiah of sorts. I would be as or more concerned that, as with every charismatic figure ( and I am not even really saying he is a one)should Obama get the nod under those conditions, then there are such unreasonably high expectations on the part of the followers who worked for him ( I don't mean the average vote - I mean the diehards), that he will have to fail - the "hey, you've been in office 24 hours. Why isn't it all better yet" thing.

I don't know. I really am in the middle, and I'll support whoever gets the nod. Again, though, thanks for the post. It is the sort of thing I am actually very interested in ( ever since I read Weber about 40 years ago) so I will really think about it.

[lwcon]

121. Thank you for a thoughtful reply as well

Just stick around here and DailyKos, and I think you'll see more of what I'm talking about.

I don't think it's good for the party or the country.

People keep saying what a great orator Obama is. If so, it would be swell if he could appeal more to the thoughtfulness of his supporters, and do less giving away the store on framing (see the various links in the OP) promoting a real, pervasive progressive movement, instead of a (sorry) cult of personality.

The country is ready for change. Real change, not just change as a vote-for-Obama-or-else buzzword.

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[BooScout]

84. I don't know about the cult thing.......

But I do know many are obnoxious and ill-informed on the issues other than 'hope' and 'change'. There's no substance to them..........pretty much what I should expect since there is very little substance to Obama.

[Iceburg]

85. E-honk!. I have yet to meet an "informed" Obama supporter /nt

[lwcon]

122. I have

I don't want to paint all Obama supporters with the same brush.

But I don't think we, and they, should hide from the fact that there is an increasingly religious fervor about his candidacy that is getting both surreal and worrisome. Not among every supporter by any stretch, but among enough of them to make it reflect badly on his campaign and to dampen my, er, faith in him to be grounded in reality.

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[in_cog_ni_to]

87. HONK**HONK**HONK!

[femrap]

88. K and R

I was an Edwards fan as well...and I can't stand Obama's 'movement.' It's creepy....rather Manchurian.

[Critters2]

92. It's the glazy-eyed thing that bothers me.

I went to visit friends in Iowa at caucus time. I went to Iowa a confirmed Obama supporter. Then I went to an Obama rally. His speech said nothing of substance, and I was surrounded by people weeping. :scared: I asked what they were crying about and would get responses like "He makes me believe!" When asked what they believed, they either couldn't answer or would just quote campaign slogans--hope, change, etc. I left that rally looking for a new candidate.

The next day I went to an Edwards rally. He gave a speech outlining policies and programs, and I had lucid conversations with Edwards supporters about why they supported him--trade policies, concern for the poor, labor issues, health care, etc.

I went to Iowa an Obama supporter. I left Iowa an Edwards supporter. I don't join cults.

[lwcon]

123. I'm not sure...

... that this is the kind of "conversion testimony" they're looking for. :)

Thank you for sharing it!

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[judaspriestess]

178. ...........

:thumbsup:

[Tennessee Gal]

94. In South Carolina, Obama said this:

"At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack!'"

[Maddy McCall]

96. In Hollywood, Obama said this:

Up close, the maw of the money machine can seem a weird place. (Having purchased a ticket in order to bypass Obama's press sentries, I am the only reporter, it appears, who is free to roam the event.) When Morgan Freeman comes over to greet Obama, the senator begins bowing down both hands in worship. "This guy was president before I was," says Obama, referring to Freeman's turn in Deep Impact and, clearly, getting a little ahead of his own bio. Next, a nod to Bruce Almighty: "This guy was God before I was." (Okay, more than a little ahead.) But Freeman is eating it up. Leaning in, he tells the senator to win it. "I will," Obama replies. "That's why I'm running."

http://www.mensvogue.com/business/politics/feature/articles/2007/04/status_report_obama

[lwcon]

124. I wonder what happens if you don't?

Sounds, um, rapturous.


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[Duncan Grant]

95. Kick for "fanaticism" (nt)

:kick:

[BlackVelvet04]

98. ......

:kick:

[ProSense]

100. "Hi, I’m part of a nationwide youth movement called Hillary Speaks for Me..."

"Hi, I’m part of a nationwide youth movement called Hillary Speaks for Me..."

[11 Bravo]

352. Speak of the Devil ...

[Guava Jelly]

102. When you point a finger at someone 3 fingers point back at you

I have seen the same cult like adoration from Clinton supporters.
It is called caring for your candidate.

[lwcon]

125. Was "I know you are but what am I" taken?

Yes, you're absolutely right. What I'm objecting to is people caring for a candidate.

Definitely. Must be it. Of course.

[whatchamacallit]

104. YOU WIN!

52 recs! My shoddy little counter attack was no match for the hive-mind onslaught. Ask yourself this; who really is the cult when, like lemmings, you blindly recommend a thread as silly as this? Ironic.

[lwcon]

109. You could (and do) conclude that

Or you could listen and hear that some of your fellow, loyal Democrats think that there is a troublesome dynamic clouding the Obama campaign, something that those of us who may find ourselves having to jump on his bandwagon would like to see improved upon.

Because it's scaring us.

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[whatchamacallit]

117. All you have to do is read this forum to see the 'cult' thing applies equally to both sides

if it applies to any.

[HuffleClaw]

106. both have become 'culty' imo

particularly in their rabid 'how DARE you criticize my candidate even a little bit' responses and in their collective blindness to their candidates faults. should be funny to see how one side deals with it once THEIR candidate has lost the nomination.

[lwcon]

110. I must say as a longtime Edwards supporter...

I simply didn't experience the same cultishness when debating with HRC supporters.

Yes, some of them were fiercely loyal, but they didn't seem to think she was infallible, chosen by god, and the font of all goodness and hope for the future the way many Obama supporters really seem to think.

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[Henryman]

357. Iwcon...BS

There's a few nuts in every box on crackerjack.
No more, no less in Obama's.
Please stop with the generalizations and argue on position.
-Thanks

[VotesForWomen]

107. i've noticed it for quite some time. their enthusiasm seems disproportional, shall we say. nt

[judaspriestess]

111. why are non Obama supporters constantly getting trashed

and insulted is the question I have. I personally am not obligated to like this guy and I don't. I am not sold on him, period. Its that simple and its just plain stupid to hurl the insults.

Sorry to break it to some people but he DOES shit on the pot like the rest of us.

[SammyWinstonJack]

137. ...

:spray: That was good!

[ieoeja]

113. K&R

Don't vote for Obama. He's so popular it's scary.

[lwcon]

127. And don't vote for Hillary either

She has almost exactly the same # of delegates.

So, why is it that people like me, who were for Edwards, see this over-the-top adulation of Obama and not for Hillary?

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[ieoeja]

136. Maybe she fails to inspire? I dunno. What do you think her problem is? n/t

[Lena inRI]

167. BWAAAAAAHAAAAA. . . . .

thanks for that guffaw, ieoeja. Skewer this CAT-FIGHTING with SATIRE

. . .

be our Mark Twain before they cut off their nose to spite their face. . .as in wrecking the Democratic Party's BEST chance of winning next November with OBAMA.

Interesting origin of this idiomatic phrase:
The phrase is believed to have originated from a (probably fictional) event that was said to have taken place in AD 867: Viking pirates from Sjaelland and Uppsala landed in Scotland and raided the monastery of Coldingham. When news of the raid reached Aebbe the Younger, the Mother Superior, she gathered her nuns together and urged them to disfigure themselves, that they might be unappealing to the Vikings. In this way, they hoped to protect their chastity. St. Aebbe accomplished this by cutting off her nose and upper lip. The nuns proceeded to do the same. The Viking raiders were so disgusted by the scene that they burned the entire building to the ground.

Although the nuns believed their actions to be justified (indeed, Aebbe was canonized), the expression has since come to refer to pointlessly self-destructive actions motivated purely by malevolence. For example, if a man is mad at his wife, he may burn down their house to punish her. Of course, this would be an example of cutting off his nose to spite his face, as in the process of burning down her house he would also be destroying his home, along with all his personal possessions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_off_the_nose_to_spite_the_face




:spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray:

[Just-plain-Kathy]

126. What a sad OP.

[SammyWinstonJack]

128. K&R

[kerry-is-my-prez]

129. I studied "cults" and agree that Obama & supporters are cultish - I don't like either Hil or Obama.

I find Hillary less obnoxious though....

[Seabiscuit]

133. *HONK* + K&R

Last year I thought Hillary was the last one I'd support.

Now she's the only one left I can support.

The alternative is just to mind-numbingly gruesome to consider.

[kid a]

135. only cultists use the "honk" cliche...um..ou sound a bit glassy eyed your self..

i call hypocrisy

[lwcon]

143. When you call hypocrisy...

Does it answer, "Hello, old friend"?

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[Kermitt Gribble]

138. K&R!

[Stardust]

139. Frankly, it is beginning to seem a bit cultish, but I support him anyway. nt

[FATCATs]

141. I WILL DO WHAT BAR-ACK SAY’S

:) He's my guy !

[MADem]

144. To paraphrase Shakespeare, the supporters doth protest too much.

If they let this silly little contretemps roll to the curb, the parade will pass it by.

But then, there's a certain cachet in being an aggrieved, put-upon VICTIM, to some extent. And that makes it worthwhile to keep crying about how poorly they're being treated.

OF course, that shit gets old real quick if international pressures rear their ugly heads.

No one wants a whining victim (and by their supporters we shall know them) directing our foreign policy.

[On the Road]

146. There is Something Cultish About Most Successful Dark-Horse Candidacies

if you want to put it that way. There was a similar vibe to Dean's campaign in 2004 -- and I was a big Dean supporter.

It is usually a matter of emotion outpacing substance (at least as seen by outsiders). I thought that Dean had more than adequate substance; I am not as sure of Obama because I haven't listened to him as much.

[Mr.Fitzgibbons]

150. OPRAH PUSHED "THE SECRET" TOO

I apologize for yelling, but this is a long thread. Oprah pushed that prosperity gospel tome The Secret, and the people into that stuff are very earnest amway-types. But hey whatever.

[Henryman]

151. If you say something enough....

it becomes "true." Now where have I heard that before?
Get off the "cult" stuff and come down to earth.
Argue your position on the merits please.

[lwcon]

152. Look at some of the examples that I and others have cited...

... throughout this thread.

I'll "get off the cult stuff" when I stop seeing cult-like behavior. I'm funny that way.

[Henryman]

162. Your "cult-like behavior" is propaganda and it's ignorant. n/t

[sniffa]

153. Don't get distracted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4468754&mesg_id=4468754

[murielm99]

154. I think Obama himself needs

to find a way to stop this.

Some of his followers have become creepy.

I do not think they are a cult. I do think some of his followers are displaying cult-like behavior. There is a difference. At least at this point there is a difference.

If he were to become President, which he may, will there be a difference? Remember, bush is the one who created this unitary executive thing. We Democrats have done nothing to stop it. Will Obama stop it? Is he experienced enough to know when or how to stop it?

[flordehinojos]

155. honk and one more K&R

and thank you for posting your thoughts and links.

[Depressed Since 2000]

157. A C-SPAN caller phoned to say she supports Obama because the Bible tells her to.

This was on Washington Journal days ago. My jaw dropped. Yes, at that point I began to feel something cult-like is going on here.

[lwcon]

199. You have seen this brochure, right?

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/01/obama_lit_in_south_carolina_pushes_back_on_false_muslim_smears.php

[Depressed Since 2000]

367. Thank you for the link. No I had not seen the "Obama Christianity" brochure.

This is all getting a bit scary for me and I was raised Christian. Brings back memories of *ush flaunting his "born again" status - and we see where that got us!

[lwcon]

369. Yup

What's bad when the goose does it is bad when the gander does it.

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[Yossariant]

158. I don't know what K & R means, but I agree with your post.

I never dreamed that I'd be supporting Clinton's candidacy -- until the alternative became apparent.

Empty suit.

[MoonRiver]

161. K & R = Kick and Recommend

:hi:

[Yossariant]

165. Thanks! I just 'got it' and recommended my first thread.

:hi:

[MoonRiver]

166. Great!

All these acronyms can be confusing!

[lwcon]

170. "K&R" threw me at first, too

So I added it here, which is a good place to look up other mysterious terms:

http://dkosopedia.com/wiki/Kossary#Blog_and_Forum_Terms

[Gloria]

159. Kick...Kick...Kick....

the most insufferable candidate I've seen in a LONG time...'We are the ones' from that movie....Shit, it IS Reagan reincarnated...to the point of quoting from movies!!

[Josiah1982]

160. kickin

[DrZeeLit]

164. Yeah... let's just feed the media frenzy. Sheesh. THINK ...

Do you really want John McCain as president?

Time to consider where all this internal bickering will lead.

I'm NOT saying anyone has to even "like" either candidate.
But PLEASE... could we not self-destruct as usual?
HUH?
This time could we just not blow up the baby with the bathwater?

I'm pretty sick of it. Already.

[lwcon]

169. Sorry, no

Some acts need to be cleaned up.

I've been noting this problem before it was any media frenzy, and from what I've seen, it's gotten worse and worse.

Please do consider this, and then hand me the cup of STFU:

http://www.correntewire.com/building_a_better_obama_or_why_spielbergs_movies_arent_so_good_anymore

[puebloknot]

173. There is a major rush to find "our guy" or "gal" and get on with the business of...

...campaigning against McCain -- and substantive issues be damned. We *need* to talk, seriously, about what each candidate brings to the table.

I fear we're putting shiny new carpeting down over rotten padding, and trying to *move on* from issues that are going to come back and bite us in the behind.

Thanks for this post, and all the links which back up your concerns -- which are mine, too -- about Obama.

[lwcon]

176. Thank you

How much do you want to bet that all the people offering us a carafe of STFU aren't doing that to people who have gripes about Hillary?

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[puebloknot]

172. My biggest concern about *any* candidate now is their willingness...

...to speak out and support the *separation of church and state*! We've seen the results of seven years of faith-based this and that.

Both candidates cause me concern in this matter, but with Hillary, I get the feeling she's kind of going along to get along with evangelical elements because she needs the votes. I've never felt any real concern about her *faith* in the years she and Bill were in the White House. I was disgusted with Bill Clinton more for publicly saying "I have sinned" after the Monica affair, than for the affair, itself. I don't want to hear about religion in government. It does not belong there.

With Obama, I have *far* greater concern over his being too cozy with evangelical influences. He and his wife both seem much more to be true believers in fundamentalist Christianity than either of the Clintons. There is a stridency I have noticed in some of Michelle Obama's speeches which seems tinged with the methods used by *preachers*, and it concerns me. Obama is a smoother speechmaker, but too much of what he has to say is tinged with Christian ideology.

There is great pressure on this forum (and from some writers I truly respect) to get with the program, play nice, don't criticize "our" Dems (who were chosen *for* us through corporate influence more than through our traditional primary process), and come together in harmony to elect a Dem -- any Dem -- as a way to begin anew. There is a certain wisdom in that point of view because when you consider any of the Republican candidates, it is simply a nightmare scenario, and we can ardently hope that *any* Dem can do a great deal better. But I think we must guard against fooling ourselves into thinking that a lot better is sufficient to the task.

We've all probably seen newsreels from WWII of the Nuremberg rallies, and when I see some of the cheering that's going on in Obama circles, it kind of raises the hair on the back of my neck. I have great concerns over the kind of energy that can come from a large crowd. Large numbers do not a problem make, as long as we don't have so much impassioned support that critical thinking goes out the window. Youthful enthusiasm is a good thing, if it derives from an understanding of the issues.

It would say a great deal to the world about America's evolvement if we had a black President. Obama is intelligent and he's charming, and I have given a lot of thought to his candidacy. In reading his "Hope" book, I found it to be insubstantial, and I was put off with some comments in that book about faith-based issues. We've had enough of that. It belongs in every person's personal "closet." I am not interested in, and do not want to be subjected to, religion of any stripe in the political arena. That certain underlying principles may serve to inform decisions made by a national leader is understandable, but religious practices should be done separately from the affairs of government.

I have, myself, said in the past that I would never vote for Hillary. At this point, I'm watching very carefully as events develop, and I'm watching *most* closely how much, and whether, the candidates are going to distance themselves from right-wing ChristoFascism. *Every* other issue is colored by that basic stance!

[lwcon]

174. I hear you, big time

If you didn't catch a link to this upstream, I think you may like this (especially if you're a Salinger fan):
http://www.correntewire.com/no_ponies_for_holden

Hillary, with her little GOP prayer circle, certainly doesn't pass my purity test on church-and-state, but Obama has a long line of in-your-face-statements about religion that made me flip the bozo bit on him re: that topic months ago.

For but a few examples, see this and the links therein:
http://correntewire.com/barack_still_putting_the_u_s_into_jesus

And, of course, let's not forget this one. No way is Hillary going to top that for sheer messianic gumption:
http://www.correntewire.com/obama_inspired_by_exodus_me_not_so_much_how_about_you

Finally, while I'm breaking the world blogwhoring record, you might also enjoy this l'il destination, too:
http://bs4a.blogspot.com/

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[puebloknot]

180. Bookmarking for consumption after dinner.

Thanks for the links.

On this general topic, I heartily recommend:

American Fascists, by Chris Hedges

The Theocons, by Damon Linker

Religion Gone Bad: The Hidden Dangers of the Christian Right, by Mel White


I grew up with the church that gave us our beloved special prosecutor, Kenneth Starr. I know whereof I speak when I caution about the impact of right-wing "Christianity" on our country. I stand as witness to the fact that any person *can* think their way out of that particular paper bag, and we fail to do it at our own peril!

[lwcon]

186. Amen, brother or sister! n/t

[puebloknot]

203. I'm Judy, and I live in Santa Fe. "PuebloKnot" is a name a friend here at DU chose...

...for me, after he invited me to come here, and I was kind of dragging my feet.

We were working together, with some others, on a project in the general vein of a general strike. We were going to choose a day when everyone would just sit down, shut up, stay at home -- a gentle general strike, you might say! :) I had written about the Pueblo Revolt here in New Mexico, wherein all the pueblos coordinated an uprising against the Spanish by sending runners out with knotted ropes, each knot representating a day. At the end of the rope, with the last knot, the uprising happened.

I still think the idea is inspirational! If they can do it.....

[lwcon]

206. Nice to meet you, Judy

What is the message behind the proposed strike?

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[puebloknot]

270. The "proposed" strike was quite some time ago.

Other proposals have come and gone since then.

Message? What kind of message would we send if we shut down everything? We could let the PTB know that we are displeased. They know that already. We could send a message that we are willing to starve for democracy. The line starts.....over there!

[amborin]

286. excellent points

[izzybeans]

175. So cultish we've go a song

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4488577&mesg_id=4488577

[lwcon]

177. As I noted in your separate thread on this...

I thought it was this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ5SVDYBNrY

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[izzybeans]

179. Look in the mirror.

[lwcon]

183. Oh, absolutely

My obsession with Hillary is so strong that I donated generously to John Edwards's campaign and even bought his T-shirt.

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[izzybeans]

185. I didn't say anything about Hillary.

Did I asshole? I too was an Edwards supporter. But now I vote for the better candidate that is left. simple. right?

[lwcon]

201. Thank you for your unity! n/t

[saracat]

181. K and R !

[Tennessee Gal]

184. Honk!

In South Carolina, Obama said this:
"At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack!'

[Riley133]

187. *honk* - and this screaming/yelling at other Dems

to me is a huge sign of the problem. In 30 years of voting (all Democratic), I've been screamed at twice. Once in 2004 by a Bush supporter because I had a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker on my car; the second time is now. The screaming and name calling by certain other Dems has stopped me cold; therefore, after much angst, I've decided to vote for Hillary. The people I personally know in New York can be counted on saying that she's done something for them and they feel she's been effective.

Great post - nice to see the grownup wing of the supporters!

[nonconformist]

189. Awesome post. As a fellow Edwards supporter, I concur. nt

[Norrin Radd]

190. I rarely have my TV on, as any sound from it either frightens

or irritates my cat. But today, when I had on Obama speaking here in Seattle, she actually came in the room and lounged by the TV. That's a good endorsement, as far as I'm concerned.

[lwcon]

200. It took 190 posts...

... but finally the voice of reason! :)

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[Norrin Radd]

290. Thanks on her behalf.

She follows me around wherever I go; she can't stand to be apart. If I am in another room, she cries out of loneliness. But she'll stay away when the TV volume is on, to her consternation. But she seemed soothed by his voice. I posted a pic of Mokey below.

[Tennessee Gal]

202. LOL! So Obama won over your cat! LOL!

:applause:

:rofl:

[Norrin Radd]

289. Yep! She always runs away at a stranger's voice, in person, or from the TV

[defendandprotect]

204. Must say, I appreciate your trying to discuss the issue further because . . .

what I think our problem here is the "cult" which wants to shut everyone up --

Personally, I'd rather see us discussing something other than the DU belly button which
many here seem fixated upon -- hoping it looks good --- !!!!

Meanwhile --- I have no confidence in Obama --- I don't see what others see in him.
I don't trust him.

Even more, I don't trust Hillary -- well . . . maybe it's a tie -- ???

Coming back to how the DU belly button looks, IMO, we have quite a knot of zealots here
who like to witchhunt -- but who don't see anything wrong with the Democratic party being
co-opted by the corporate-sponsored DLC -- or with the DLC soliciting more "blue dogs" who
confer with President Bush and GOP leaders on strategy and votes.

Not only don't they see it --- they pretend there is no such thing --- !!!

[lwcon]

208. I can't knock anyone for having qualms about either or both candidates...

... unless they fall into the "I won't vote for that/either Dem" category.

I'll tell you that this article, linked by someone upstream, made me feel really good about my decision to vote for Hillary:
http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/seeing_the_light_in_south_caro.php

She's not perfect by a damned sight, but of the remaining two, I feel like she knows the score and is arcing leftward, while Obama is racing to the right -- at least in term of framing which is goddamned important to winning hearts and minds to the issues that matter.

Bill Clinton ran on an identical theme to Obama's (he's the man from Hope, remember?), and we lost Congress within two years. A charismatic guy with happy-talk themes that don't challenge people to repudiate the GOP (and the public is super-ready to do that, as long as the candidates don't feed them soporific talk about singing Kumbaya with the Repubs) does not offer much for coattails. If people accept Hillary, I think they're accepting a centrist who's returning to the liberal fold, and she'll have longer coattails than a cult figure who's running on his transcendent exceptionalism.

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[defendandprotect]

339. Evidently, there are many here unwilling or unable to acknowledge what the DLC is and

and what it does . . .

Certainly Hillary isn't the "anti-war" candidate, is she....?
Hillary is certainly the DLC candidate --- she is part of their leadership -- !

The corporate-sponsored DLC is the Republican wing of the Democratic Party ---
including 42-45 "blue dogs" who are consulting with Bush and GOP leaders and voting
with them.

Obama --- ? I simply don't get it ---

What I could agree with is that whatever either of these candidates is saying right now, it isn't
enough -- it barely speaks to the issues we face re Global Warming and war and a busted Treasury ---
serious problems with infrastructure in America --- and 8 years of a corrupt/criminal Bush/Cheney
reign.

What could the problem be in acknowledging that we need to nationalize America's oil and
start putting electric cars on the roads?

What could be the problem with simply extending Medicare to ALL -- ?

Further, re Bill Clinton --- it's amazing how the "scapegoaters" perform here re Nader . .
but rarely see that Perot tipped the election to Clinton vs Poppy Bush.
In fact -- what did Clinton come in with? 39% . . .
The GOP wanted to push for a do-over as I recall --- !!!

Hillary, further, is not "returning" to the liberal fold ---
Hillary was a Republican ---
and will be another "great compromiser" in the same mold as Bill Clinton --
compromising our way to more destruction and insecurity for our nation.

NJ is a blue state, so we have some wiggle room here --
and I don't see that I will be voting for either Hillary or Obama ---
probably I will cast a vote for Edwards ---

[lumberjack_jeff]

214. No one likes a heretic. n/t

[lwcon]

219. Well, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

I was expecting most of the Obama crowd to say "You know, you've got a point. There actually is a legitimate reason why so many people are noting the overzealousness of some supporters, which is at times quite over-the-top. He's just a good and talented man who's running for office, and he has unfortunately contributed to this phenomenon by creating a revival-meeting tone in his campaign events and literature. Also, his overuse of meaningless-but-pleasing buzzwords that gloss our real political problems and denigrate generations of progressives is quite unnecessary given his oratory skills and the readiness of most Americans to repudiate today's GOP and its policies."

I was so very sure that was going to happen. Live and learn.

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[lumberjack_jeff]

239. LOL! You've earned the comfy chair!

:rofl:

[sandyd921]

217. Yes I can!

K & R this thread, that is! I am also a former Edwards supporter now supporting Hillary and I fully concur with your observations about many Obamabots. The mind-numbing simplistic chants and phrases drive me just a little crazy :crazy:

[smalll]

223. Very nicely done.

Take a K and an R!

[mamameow]

228. preach

he is trying to be mlk. sometimes i cannot tell the difference unless i look. he keeps reminding us how the blacks are on the low end of society. my black friends do not like this preachy attitude. he sounds good but he is like bush nothing under the hat. with obama there's nothing under the hallow. he was great at the 2004 dem convention but now there is an arrogance about. cannot stand michelle obama, there is real arrogance there.

[Sapphocrat]

229. Beep-beep!

I won't bother to expand on anything you've said, 'cause, frankly, it would be for the benefit of Obama supporters who 1) won't read it, or 2) won't believe it, and 3) will find a way to call me a racist paid Hillshill expressing "faux outrage."

I don't have to explain it to those who have chosen to support Hillary based on reason... and anyway, I've already been slapped with pretty much all the above epithets today.

Now, come get me, haters -- I've only added three or four people to my ignore list today!

[lwcon]

231. Thanks for stopping by

What time is Karl Rove's Hillary Klan Jamboree? I need to pick up my paycheck, and I wanted to help feed orphan babies into the Monstrous Clinton Machine. Just like always.

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[Sapphocrat]

234. It's right after the...

...Homosexual Agenda-sponsored DLC Orgy. I hope you'll be staying for the Three Minutes of Hate afterwards! :hi:

[lwcon]

237. Aw, just three minutes!

Can I practice my Obama hate right here?

OK, here goes: "I have some concerns about Barack Obama's rhetoric and the obsessiveness of some of his supporters."

Oh, that makes me feel dirty with evil, it does. Hate, hate, hate it is!

:evilgrin:

[NMMNG]

232. I know what your problem is

You just need The BAM.

[sueragingroz]

264. lavender liberal... i like that n/t

[sueragingroz]

236. I haven't posted in a while

I forgot my password so just lurked for months... but after watching all of what has been going on over the last few weeks, I've started to get active on the boards again.

Anyway, I just have to K & R this thread because it is something that has come to me idependantly from watching the coverage of these primaries and I'm so happy to see that I'm not alone.

Just to preface this - I'm not an american so I can't vote. But I'm a political junkie and I find american politics to be not only important on a global scale but fascinating to watch.

Anyway, my wife (and yes I'm a woman) and I started following the campaign in earnest in late december. My wife is a bit of a feminist so she was for Hillary right off the bat. Me not so much. I was intrigued by the idea of Obama and I knew from following politics back in 2006 that he was a rising star... But over time, I started digging around in both their sites and after watching the coverage and their behaviour, I decided to go for Clinton despite Bubba's idiotic behaviour in advance of South Carolina. (I say idiotic because someone with that depth of political experience really should have known better).

So - I'm not a Hillary maniac. I support her because the White House needs someone to clean up the mess right now - they need a down and dirty political warrior who has been in the trenches and who has taken her fair share of knocks. You knock her down... and somehow she manages to get up again.

America needs that right now IMHO.

Many folks compare Obama to Kennedy - but I liken him to Trudeau. Google Trudeaumania and you will know what I'm talking about. Trudeau was a decent PM who many loved and who many hated. But when he died, the response of the people was akin to what the republicans experienced when Reagan passed.

I'm starting to distract myself from my point but here it is: Trudeau was a visionary. Canada at that time, was in need of a visionary. I believe that America will be ready for a visionary at some point in the future once this mess has been cleaned up.

Once Obama gets some more real national political experience and learns that campaigns are not about him but about the people that pay his salary, he will be a great leader.

That all said, the reason why I have decided to stop lurking and to start posting is because this cult thing is really starting to creep me out too.

So I did a google/news search on "obama cult" and here are some of the links that I got back:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802080014?f=h_latest

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/and-obama-wept.html

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jeff_jarvis/2008/02/the_power_of_oratory.html

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/by_frank_james_theres_an.html

This is not idle speculation. It is starting to get play in the media. And it is harmful to the Democratic Party IMHO...

Just check out what the pig man had to say:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_020808/content/01125110.guest.html

They are going to have a field day with him come the general election...

[Catchawave]

241. Well thought out post, thank you

and welcome back :hi:

Obama needs to do more townhalls with Q&A's, it was John Edwards favorite venue. These rock star events were cute in the beginning, but they're grating on my nerves.

[sueragingroz]

260. they don't translate into votes necessarily either n/t

[robbedvoter]

248. Thanks for these.

[lwcon]

254. But of course it will be all our fault for noticing

Instead of Obama's or his supporters' fault for not getting in front of this and chilling on the religious and pseudo-religious puffery and glazy adulation.

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[sueragingroz]

256. You are right but once this goes mainstream it won't just be about Obama supporters anymore

Hopefully everyone will clue in before it's too late and the Dems will be able to unify in a rational way behind who they decide is the best candidate.

BTW: I've been to your site and I think that it's fab. Keep up the good work!

The game was my favorite part - I love ponies!

If someone fears rational criticism - they need to seriously re-evaluate their position.

[lwcon]

259. Thank you for your kind words!

And who doesn't like ponies?!

I'm going to name mine Epiphany!

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[sueragingroz]

262. I found another link...

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/7/112248/5633

[lwcon]

329. I like her conclusion

Barack Obama is a first term Senator running for President. As with all candidates, a speechwriter writes his major addresses. His words aren't gospel and even if they were, gospel is what I expect from Republicans, like Huckabee. This race should be about politics and governance.

I hope the hype stops soon. Maybe if more of us write about it, it will.

Bingo!

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[AX10]

240. kick

[krabigirl]

244. k & r

[TankLV]

251. K & R...

[earth mom]

252. Yep, it's looking like a cult-brought to you by the cult of Oprah!

:scared:

[Neshanic]

258. Ya think? I am waiting for the little hats and handbook for them to carry.

[zulchzulu]

267. How can anyone who supported Edwards be for Hillary?

Talk about just dropping the message and embracing the opposite.

You are a dumb ass if you think that people who support Obama are "cultish". That kind of lameass bullshit logic is due to not being very intelligent in my view.

[lwcon]

269. Well, you've run rings around me logically n/t

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[jefferson_dem]

271. While Obama's message and method may not resonate with you personally...

I find the sanctimonious snobbery nauseating.

Enjoy your stay in the Hillary Camp. That seems to be a good fit for you.

[iris5426]

272. Beep beep! :-) nt

[avrdream]

273. Toot, toot!

It is a bit weird, all this cult stuff.

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grassfed]

275. The two candidates are awfully similar on policy?

Hillary
YES on IWR
YES on Kyle/Lieberman
NO on banning cluster bombs (what kind of a woman could do that?)
and so on

[dicknbush]

276. How many bills has OBama sponsored to cut off funding for the war?

The answer is none and by the way I truly believe that if Obama was in fact a sitting Senator when the IWR was debated and passed he would have voted for it. Sixty to Seventy % of the country was for going into Iraq and if you were an ambitious politician you didn't want to be known as someone who was against protecting the homeland. Obama would have supported the war just like all the big players did.

[grassfed]

277. Hillary YES on bankruptcy bill

she's a huge phony. deal.

[robbedvoter]

299. after introducing an amendment that kept W from ever signing it

(let creditors have mansions too). That was HER amendment. As it was adopted, she HAD to vote for the bill. But this was the reason this 2001 bill never became law...

[Political Heretic]

278. This gives me a good list of people to ignore.

[LulaMay]

279. It started to become very bad with Kennedy and the Camelot stuff. I was sad for Caroline K

because it was such a personal reaction from her that seemed manipulated by uncle Teddy, who was pissed at Hillary for his own reasons. (That she mentioned Johnson and not JFK when talking about the CivilRights Act.) I mean, she was 5 when he was killed. Her memories are likely built a lot on the idealized image and the place he holds in our hearts.

When those feelings were called up for Obama, that's when it became inappropriate to me....and sad, and yes, creepy. JFK was JFK, nobody else is JFK or like JFK reincarnated. His families calling up his sainted spirit for Obama's campaign just felt wrong and odd.

Add the Oprah thing and it started to sound like Entertainment Tonight too....Hollywood and Camelot....reminding people of Tom Cruise and Scientology. I think that's part of the creepy factor of it too.

My husband went to the Hillary rally in LA. ALL of the most powerful LA politicians were there, endorsed her, but all the media could talk about was Oprah and Teddy. Then they were shocked when voters didn't care.

I have been very offended by Kennedy and Kerry. They caused a lot of this, but Obama hasn't done anything to dispel it either, feeling obviously that the adoration and idealization of him are to his benefit. That makes people's skin crawl too.

He would do better to step away from it and start talking about issues more in his speeches.

[LulaMay]

280. THIS is the stuff making people uncomfortable, comparing himself to JFK

From Obama speech today:


"Early in this campaign, I got in an argument with Sen. Clinton because I said I would meet not just with our friends, but with our enemies. Not just with leaders we like, but leaders we detested and despised. And I was told, 'oh no, you can't do that.' And I said, 'watch me.' Because I remember what John F. Kennedy said. He said, 'you should never negotiate out of fear, but you should never fear to negotiate.'"

[noac7]

281. What happens if...

Obama wins the primary and goes on as the Democratic candidate? Hold your nose and vote? I'm not being cynical, I'm curious as to whether Obama, McCain, or no vote at all will be the best choice for you guys.

[Qanisqineq]

282. I don't know that it's a "cult" but I see a lot of hero-worship

It goes beyond just liking your candidate or thinking he/she would make a great president or admiring your candidate's qualities. I've seen a lot that reminds me of how my born-again-Christian sister feels about GW Bush. And it certainly doesn't come from all Obama supporters but there are some who act like he walks on water.

[amborin]

287. excellent post

[CadenBlaker]

288. Sorry, staying with Obama.

I've seen what the right wing has on Clinton and it isn't pretty. People are gullible and stupid and will fall for anything, so I think I'll stick with Obama.

[shaniqua6392]

293. I left his camp when he said:

"At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, `I have to vote for Barack!'" WTF??? I have also seen people at his rallies crying and fainting. I will vote for him in the GE with a clothes pin on my nose but I do not like this at all. His fans do not come up with reasonable logic to any questions I have asked of them. They become defensive and insulting. These are politicians that do not deserve to be worshiped. They all lie. They are not perfect and can not walk on water. Be realistic. They will say or do anything to get elected. I do not want to hear his slogans and gospel-preacher like rhetoric. I want to know EXACTLY what he is going to do to correct the mess the Republicans have created. I do not want to hear how he is bringing Republicans over to vote for him. If they are willing to vote for him, something is wrong. We do not need sheeple in our party. The fans in the stands of the stadiums hoping to catch a glimpse of him, screaming for him with tears running down their cheeks scare the hell out of me. No matter who our nominee is, I intend to hold him/her completely accountable for their every action or inaction. Make them do everything they are promising to do.

[DogPoundPup]

297. The "glazy-eyes"? Result of 7+ yrs. of BushCabal years...

and the "hope" of CHANGE in the White House!

CHANGE in the White House means no more CLINTONS...NO MORE BUSHES. :woohoo:

Got IT? Thank you very much~ :patriot:

[robbedvoter]

300. Let's ask Obama, shall we?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4492128&mesg_id=4492128
'You will experience an epiphany & you will say to yourself I have to vote for Barack.'
", a light will shine down from somewhere.

It will light upon you. You will experience an epiphany. And you will say to yourself, I have to vote for Barack. I have to do it."

As someone who has NOT seen the light....

HONK!

[cubs4life]

303. K & R and Thank You.

I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way.

[chascarrillo]

304. Keep hate alive!

[jefferson_dem]

306. They'll claim that impugning and belittling enthusiastic support for this Democrat is not hateful...

It's simply ... constructive criticism.

Right.

[lwcon]

309. Oh, yes Aristotle's rhetorical tactic of

"Argument from 'Yeah, Right'"

Well played!

Perhaps some of us (over 100 recommenders) are telling you that we are seeing something that's kind over over-the-top and messianic going on in the Obama campaign. Perhaps it's really scaring us.

Pretend all you want that we're some kind of "haters of enthusiasm." Your refusal to listen just makes us all the more concerned.

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[chascarrillo]

311. It was a self-serving post. You pleaded everyone to K&R your own post.

Stay classy! And keep hate alive!

[lwcon]

319. I'm sorry

When you were saying "keep hate alive," I thought you were being ironic.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.
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[jefferson_dem]

312. Your "concern" is duly noted.

Thanks.

[lwcon]

325. Duly noted with quotes on the "concern," eh?

There are no quotes on my concern.

I am unfortunately seeing little evidence that the Obama camp is going to pull back from this messianic brink.

Maybe, maybe some real changes will be motivated by the growing negative press that this new religion is beginning to engender.

Will it lead to any real changes? One can only hope.

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[lwcon]

307. A good way to keep hate alive

Is to claim anyone who has legitimate concerns is a hater.

Thank you for your unity!


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[chascarrillo]

308. I must have missed the "legitimate conerns" in your post.

All I saw was a lot of belittling Obama supporters for being cultish.

Anyway, thank you for your unity as well!

[lwcon]

313. You don't see the constructive concern here?

http://www.correntewire.com/building_a_better_obama_or_why_spielbergs_movies_arent_so_good_anymore

If you don't, you're certainly misunderstanding me. I -- and a lot of other loyal Dems -- are seeing a dynamic that we're finding unwholesome and worrisome. For the most part, we're people who will support Obama to defeat McCain if Obama becomes our nominee (I certainly will).

We don't want the following to happen:

* For Obama to be a lesser candidate or president because he's in a bubble of perfection, inhaling his own fumes -- as he must be with all the messianic adulation
* For Obama to keep giving away the store on framing with his bogus, unchallenging pap about partisan bickering being the cause of our problems, rather than an out-of-control Conservative Movement
* For Obama to lose the election despite his vaunted ability to turn independents and Republicans into wine, as this offputting overzealousness -- this sense of get on the bus, or it'll roll over you -- backfires on us

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[chascarrillo]

317. A`self=serving post is not constructive.

The way you framed it is not constructive. The language you used is not constructive. The way you've pitted one camp against the other is not constructive.

It's all a bunch of "bump my post!" concern trolling. And now you've plugged your website in the process. Wow.

[lwcon]

326. If that's all you're hearing

Then, thank you for the kick.

Enjoy your new religion. I hope it's a good one.

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[dailykoff]

310. Meanwhile, Hilly "is unafraid of eeueweeeu yucky power."

Physician heal thyself.

[lwcon]

315. Que? n/t

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[PerpetuallyDazed]

314. Sweet links!

I hadn't read this before... http://www.correntewire.com/triangulation_the_next_generation

Thank you for posting it! The blogger captures my thoughts exactly.

[lwcon]

316. C'est moi, so thanks! n/t

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[Bitwit1234]

318. At first I could not understand the mind numbing support for this candidate

You are correct in saying Hillary is not a perfect candidate but she is head and shoulders over the other candidate. John Edwards who could not shake the looser image of John Kerry would have been the PERFECT. But after you found out he didn't have a chance I had to switch to HIllary. And then the constant other candidate supporters and the MSM and the republicans attacks on her it only strengthened my resolve.

The "other" candidate has one thing, and one thing going for him, the corporate PR behind the scenes shaping his image. He is a feather brain that got into the senate by a fluke or was it a fluke. He came out of no-where to take the Illinois senate seat and we see who was behind that. Then when the polls were going against him in Illinois a "miracle" occurred. His republican opponent got caught in a sex club scandal that was years old. Sorta like that 15 year old photo of Hillary and Bill Clinton with the other candidates associate and friend surfaced.

Now you see droves of people with glassy eyes and chanting and singing following him. Not one of them can tell you a real accomplishment. A real intelligent program that they will do. The PR of the MSM has done it's job well. But there will come a tumble they will "wake" up. And I'll be darn if I drink the kool aid with them.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

321. I'm still voting for Edwards!

I am still angry. I am not ready to just "chill out" and embrace the other team in bipartisanship. To be blunt: if this is the direction we continue in, I am prepared to leave the party all together.

[lwcon]

324. I don't agree with all of your premises

I think Edwards's #1 problem was that the media deep-sixed his campaign. The two-horse race of black vs. female, new-look vs. former first lady was exactly the kind of narrative they crave. Also, perhaps at least as important, Edwards frightened them as the angry-yet-charming adversary of their corporate overlords.

Also, Obama is far from a "feather brain." He's highly educated and more than holds his own in debates. I think he absolutely has the capacity to be our president. But it's how he uses his brains and how he encourages others to put theirs on hold with vacant, self-serving happy talk -- when the country is ready for real change.

But, I am unfortunately smelling the Kool-Aid, too, and I sincerely hope his campaign will sacrifice a little adulation and bring his campaign back to planet earth instead of Heaven's Gate.

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[soundguy]

330. No Cool Aid Here Either.

It is scary and creepy all at the same time. Did anyone see the focus group video of Obama supporters and when they asked them which of his accomplishments brought them to his support all they got were glassy eyed uh well uh, uh...He is an inspiring speaker. And the weirdest fact of all, is these poor easily misled people would normally say, those who are selling him in the MSM and the right are serial liars. Well except when they praise Obama. I have actually grown to hate the guy. I could have liked him if given a chance to get to know him on my terms, not having people shoving him down my throat. Hell, I could even accept him if they showered me with facts and accomplishments. It is kinda like the latest fad that people flock to because that is what they do. Third party for me if he gets the nomination. I would rather go down voting for someone I believe in than an empty suite. This is the presidency of the United States People not class president, or a popularity contest.

[desi]

320. There's certainly a religious fervor akin to Elmer Gantry

Somebody posted this in another thread: OBAMA: (from a speech in South Carolina) "That's his job, get you to the polls, vote for Obama. My job is to help him do his job. So I am going to try to be so persuasive in the 20 minutes or so that I speak that by the time this is over, a light will shine down from somewhere.

It will light upon you. You will experience an epiphany. And you will say to yourself, I have to vote for Barack. I have to do it."

When I read this I recalled reading a story a few years ago that sounded similar. Recalling that the situation took place in Ohio I googled and found it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3044178.stm

A congregation in the United States was left stunned when lightning struck a church moments after a visiting preacher asked God for a sign.

Church members in the town of Forest in the state of Ohio said the preacher had been emphasising the importance of penance when, in the course of his prayers, he called on the heavens above.

The lightning struck the steeple, then hit the preacher himself when it travelled through electrical wiring to his microphone.

<snip>

"It was awesome, just awesome," said church member Ronnie Cheney, who was among the congregation when the strike hit, told the Findlay Courier newspaper.

"You could hear the storm building outside... he just kept asking God what else he needed to say.

"He was asking for a sign and he got one."

[desi]

323. I forgot to HONK!!

K&R for Elmer Gantry

[Orsino]

331. Here's a definition of a cult that may be applicable:

People fired up with slogans in service to powerful leaders.

Every political campaign qualifies, and whether you choose to call one a "cult" or not may depend only on whether you are a supporter or not. You never see Clinton supporters asking whether they're in a cult, after all. Somehow, the term only applies to opponents.

But thanks for your concern.

[Teaser]

332. No one cares who your voting for.

And no one cares who I'm voting for.

Can we just leave everyone alone?

[lwcon]

342. You're right

We built this city on STFU. Why stop now?

And no worries that you're talking right past the topic, which is how Obama's campaign might need some course corrections before it burns out on offputting adulation, not on which candidate I prefer.

Let's leave everybody and every issue alone. That's what democracy and DU are for.

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[Teaser]

370. That I'm right wasn't in question.

It never is.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

334. As an American citizen I'm looking for an employee, not a leader.

The Constitution says "We, the people" hire our representatives to work on OUR behalf, and it's incumbent upon us to make sure they're doing so.

Well, since we've been inattentive, self absorbed bosses, our current employee in OUR federally subsidized housing is stealing everything but the fixtures right out from under our noses.

I want my highest ranking public servant to tell me what's to be done, march out how it will be accomplished and tell me what it is I should do to help him/her accomplish those goals. Of course, this employee must have skills in negotiation and consensus building and public speaking. If they can invoke positive inspiration, that's a plus, but not the be all/end all.

I don't want to blindly follow anyone. I'm a citizen of a democracy, not a monarchy, dictatorship or oligarchy.

So, where others look for a "leader" I consider this a job interview, with me doing the hiring. So, chanting and all that is fine, but that's not what gets the nod from me.

I wish more citizens took this responsibility seriously. :-(

[Name removed]

335. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lwcon]

340. There you have it folks!!! "From the Left" for the win!!!

Obama critics = racists.

And for bonus points, the accusation is bathed in misogyny: "Hillary's Harpies."

Webster's definition of "harpy":

1. capitalized : a foul malign creature in Greek mythology that is part woman and part bird
2. a predatory person : leech b: a shrewish woman

Yes, in less than two weeks since leaving the Edwards camp, I've have changed genders (Obama really is transformative!) and become a Hillary Harpy!

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case. And bailiff, do be careful with Exhibit A, the grape sugar-drink.

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[backscatter712]

337. Wish I could do an anti-kick.

Obama's earned his support.

So excuse me while I put on my funny hat and my orange robe and start singing the Obama Rama Ding Dong chants.

[acmavm]

338. Oh my, think of the kiddies! You know their feelings are what's important

in this election. Forget that this country is in the worst spot it's been in since its founding. Concentrate on the real issue, Barrie's fans and the need not to let them know that this election isn't the political version of American Idol.

[SoxFan]

343. This is actually a useful thread

You know how military aircraft have an "Identify Friend or Foe" system?

Well, this is an IFF system for complete assholes.

[lwcon]

345. Unity rulez!!

I'm going to name my pony "People with Concerns about Obama are Complete Assholes."

Oh, and the vibe about us being targets is very nice, in a transformative hopey-changey kind of way.

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[peacock]

346. Vote for the candidate who best

addresses the issues, as you see them.

I voted for Edwards, "after the fact", after the suspension of his campaign, becaouse to me, Edwards has best addressed the issues that concern me.

I encourage everyone to vote for THEIR choice, based on the issues and ONLY the issues.

I also encourage ALL to support the Democratic Party´s nominee, whomever taht may be.

Thank you.

[1corona4u]

347. K&R

[whatchamacallit]

349. 147 cult-like recs - and counting...

Stunning irony.

[lwcon]

351. Are there special Unity recs that pro-Obama posts get? n/t

[whatchamacallit]

355. Unity my ass, this is pure group-think. Congratulations Iwcon, how's it feel to be a cult leader?

:crazy:

[lwcon]

359. Don't worry about my cult

I promise hope and change (and quite possibly, ponies) for everybody. I'm on a mission from God. Trust me.

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[lwcon]

356. Done counting

In 24 hours, 147 of your fellow Democrats registered their concern about the growing cultism around Obama by making this the highest-rated post on DU.

You can sit there smugly saying that we're the cultists, or you can join those of us who want Obama to run a better campaign.

One of the disturbing qualities of much of the pro-Obama rhetoric is the unyielding sense that the end justifies the means. Dredge up old Clinton hate and call her unelectable? No problem. Call her and her husband racists? Hey, if it gets us those precious vague promises of "hope," "change," and "unity," yes we can and will!

Likewise, every time he throws progressives under the bus and pisses away our real opportunity to shape the debate, it's always rationalized, and besides, he's doing pretty well in the campaign and will excite those all-fired important Indie and reformable Republican voters, so it's all good. It's not like we've won any elections recently. Well, except the last one. And we're kicking the GOP's butt in the court of public opinion. But whatever.

Well, it isn't all good. That's what we're saying.

Turn a smart, talented man into a demi-God, and nothing good will come out of it. At least that's how some of us see it.

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[whatchamacallit]

360. Run a better campaign? What, a better campaign = not inspiring a huge devoted movement?

Yeah, blame wild-eyed kids, or blame shallow hope and optimism, or maybe you should blame your own candidate for not being able to engender the same.

[lwcon]

361. She's been my candidate less than two weeks

In part, I chose her because I couldn't stomach the cultish dynamics in the Obama campaign.

Perhaps enough others will see it that way, perhaps not. We'll see.

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[indigoblue]

350. K&R

Some college student was interviewed in NPR and asked why she supports Obama, and she said "because he said he is going to change things!."

What are things? Some Obama supporters just worship him and act as if he is a savior who is going to change their lives magically once he becomes a president, even though they have no idea about what kind of changes he promises to bring in and how he would do so.

[ProgressIn2008]

353. Again, I have to wonder -- are the fanbase going to hold Obama accountable for anything?

That's part of the creeping "creepy factor" for me. When it's all about personality, there's no need to hold anyone accountable... and how does that work when the politician sits in the White House?

Good governance is not something a candidate "gives." It's not magically bestowed by the leader. Politicians must be held accountable, relentlessly, or else governance is blind faith in personality. This is the factor that is already going missing. Will anyone hold Obama accountable for his decisions? How is this relationship with the rock star going to develop (or not develop)?

The responses along the lines of "you're just a racist" and "why do you hate hope and puppies?" don't ease my mind on this topic. The inability of some to even conceive that anyone could have reservations about all this is part of the problem.

[Riley133]

364. Yep

I can't help but wonder where all the Obama emotion will go if he can't deliver actions on the hope of the average American. I'm not happy with the two choices that are left, either - more so because we haven't even had our primary yet so in some states, independents (nothing personal if you're reading) got to choose MY Democratic candidate and now I have to hold my nose to vote. I'd like to see the primary process revamped even if it's just making all states closed or all states open. Maybe we need little changes to make the big changes and not pin all our hopes and dreams on a mere mortal.

[CAcyclist]

354. Let's stop the negative attacks

I support Hillary, but I think it's over the top to call the Obama campaign a cult. Yes, I agree people are swept up in emotion for someone that I personally think is more wishful thinking than reality, but this "cult" attack argument does sound Rovian.

I don't think the Hillary campaign is spreading this. I think if it looks, sounds and smells like Karl Rove, it is *actually* Karl Rove. I think the only chance the Republicans have is to have us fall amongst ourselves fighting. I think Rove has his minions repeating these memes and egging on both campaigns. And the media echo chamber is grabbing on and amplifying anything they can to encourage the fur to fly.

Look at the whole "race/gender" dust-up - both camps made some remarks but it was the media that grabbed hold of the angle and kept chewing on it, no matter how the candidates or the surrogates (hate that word, by the way) tried to change the subject.

If we pull together, no matter who is elected in the primary, that candidate will win. Democrats are coming to the voting booth in record numbers; people who haven't voted for years are waking up. Republicans are demoralized and large swaths of republicans are likely to sit out this election. I prefer Hillary; I think she is by far the better candidate right now; I think Barack Obama will be a good president but has the promise of being a brilliant president if he get 8 years in the vice presidency first. However, either is a tidal wave of difference from another 4 years of dismal republican control.

The world is watching us. We must not let the world down.

[lwcon]

358. Critic of Obama = Rove plant or dupe

Thank you for pissing on my lifelong commitment to the Democratic Party and progressive issues.

But that's unity, for ya!

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[Arugula Latte]

362. Hillary fans, I'm sorry your candidate lacks charisma.

However, there's no need to let that morph into ugly jealousy by calling Obama fans a cult.

[emmadoggy]

363. A HONK from me.

Personally, I find both Obama & Clinton to be deeply disappointing candidates and the wrong way for us to be going. I have little hope for the country or for fixing all the destruction of the * administration with either of them as President. With the exception of Gravel, I think these two were the poorest choices of all our Dem candidates. But they have been foisted upon us and there is nothing that can change it now. I'm beyond disgusted with the way this primary season has played out.

From what I have seen here on DU, there has been plenty of venom and barb-throwing and blind support coming from both sides. However, I would agree with the consensus in this thread about the religiousity and creepiness on the Obama side. It is scary and has dark implications for what could happen if he becomes President.

Having said all that, I will vote for the nominee in the general because at the end of the day, any Dem is better than a Repuke and yes, the SCOTUS matters. But I will be doing so only with several large clothespins holding my nose and certainly NOT with any sense of pride, hope, excitement or happiness.

[libbygurl]

365. Honk! Beep! Bleat! nt

[CaptJasHook]

366. Honk if you think the OP is baiting you

I'm ashamed of a fellow former Edward supporter.

[lwcon]

368. My goal was to address all the denials, which have pervaded DU for days...

... about the fact that Obamism has, in some quarters, taken on some of the characteristics of a religious/personality cult.

The purpose was to create an opportunity to register that honest perception, after a series of glib posts have dismissed our concerns, in the hopes that the problem might be rectified.

Not sure how that qualifies as "baiting."

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[DemBones DemBones]

371. I'm sorry it's too late to R this thread but I'll gladly K it.

I remember my enthusiasm for Eugene McCarthy in 1968, when the party nominated Hubert Humphrey. I was even more fired up about George McGovern in 1972 and it was a terrible disappointment when he got the nomination but carried only Massachusetts in November. I fear this could happen to Obama if he's the nominee. He could probably carry more than one state, McGovern was running against an incumbent. But could he win?

You guys are all high on his primary wins and you're forgetting that more people will vote in November than have voted in the primaries. Many voters skip the primaries if they haven't picked a candidate to support -- not everybody keeps up with politics the way DUers do. Those people who did not vote in primaries are the voters the Democratic nominee has to appeal to and I believe more of them would vote for Clinton than for Obama.

Most of the Obama supporters seem to be new here so I'll add for the record that I supported Kucinich, as I had in 2004, and have said many times here at DU that I'd never vote for Hillary Clinton, wanting a more progressive candidate.

But now I'm convinced that she is more progressive than Obama and also more electable. I do not want McCain in the White House, with access to nukes.

"Yes We Can" hand the election to McCain if we nominate Obama.

Let's not. If Obama is really the leader his followers think he is, another eight years in the Senate, or maybe in the vice presidency, would make it more likely he could win the presidency. He could also challenge President Hillary Clinton in the 2012 primaries if he doesn't want to wait.

If he's nominated this year and loses to McCain, he's unlikely to ever have another shot at the party's nomination.



:kick:

[Riley133]

379. Excellent - your last sentence says it all. n/t

[cooolandrew]

372. Just put you in a nice hidingplace don't want toread it don't want to hear it. bye.

[QC]

377. Excellent example of what the thread is about. n/t

[Raffi Ella]

381. it is isn't it?

I've also seen one Obama supporter saying "Don't get distracted" to fellow Obama supporters in threads where there is justified criticism and questions being asked ...C'MON!!Tell me they think for themselves and know the issues and what is at stake here that they can't take any criticism and questions scare them so much they need to remind eachother to stay focused on Obama!


It's frightening!


We've already had a cocky arrogant inexpereinced President who flew by the seat of his "intuitive instinct" in place of any real qualifications.His name is G.W.Bush.

[sykalla]

376. Many Obama supporters creep me out N/T

[Egalia]

383. It's a fad..

here today, gone tomorrow, or in November.