Carville used the "cult" word against the DNC and Dean.

[madfloridian]

It was a favorite thing to call those of us who supported Dean last primary. Now it is being used again again Obama supporters.

I think it is out of control. It is not funny. Thread after thread here in 2003 and 2004. One after the other.

It is one reason it was so horrible for James Carville to go on CNN and use that word AGAIN against Howard Dean. Later he admitted the Clintons were not averse to his saying all that about the party chairman.

Using the cult meme is an ugly attack. The Hillary campaign is dead wrong to allow this to go on. It implies lack of intelligence when it is used, it implies a superiority on the part of the person using it.

Here is the video where Carville called the DNC the cult of Dean.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/15/carville-goes-after-dean/

It was right after we won congress back in 2006.

Here is more about what else Carville did.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/643

Now the cultism of the Obama supporters is being frontpaged at Democratic Underground. Laughter and amusement abound.

It is the weapon of the establishment against those who want party change. Shame on those who use it.

[polichick]

1. It's an old ploy used to undermine something gaining in popularity...

It won't work this time ~ we "cult members" are wise to their bullshit. Wish people hadn't fallen for it with Dean!

[goclark]

4. Exactly

[madfloridian]

5. When Carville speaks, the Clintons speak.

He was in the car driving around with Bill in Nevada during the caucus. He is always close at hand.

[polichick]

17. That guy gives me the CREEPS!

And since he married Mary Matalin, Cheney's right-hand woman, I haven't trusted a word that comes out of Carville's mouth.

[jedr]

25. Who knew that Republicanism was STD?

Never sleep with the enemy!

[polichick]

32. It's a terrifying disease...

Makes people's balls, ovaries and hearts shrivel ~ and severely impairs their judgment until they're completely delusional!

[jedr]

38. LOL......

[wryter2000]

51. ROFL

JeffR shall hear of this. :rofl:

[groovedaddy]

2. It's a human problem - the lazy way out - name calling, etc.

And it really doesn't matter if "they started it!"
Going there only causes the discourse to devolve and more name calling to happen.
The best strategy is to ignore it - don't feed it - don't get plugged in by it.
Stick with reasoned discourse. People resort to name calling and generalizations when they have nothing to stand on.

[madfloridian]

10. Not when it is just Dean and Obama it is being used against.

Now it has become a political ploy begin frontpaged at DU.

[mod mom]

3. Let's have a little look at Carville, shall we?

HERE HE IS UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY AT HOME:

Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)


By M.J. Rosenberg | bio




On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

-snip

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

-snip

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward



HERE HE IS UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY ABROAD:

Globalism extends to the American way of campaigning, it seems, and the hubris of the gringo strategists — earnest ex-Clintonistas employed by James Carville’s Greenberg Carville Shrum group — would be hilarious if human lives and a country’s political will weren’t at stake.
It’s a galling and provocative experience to viewers of any political persuasion, and a reminder to the left of how easily idealism can run amok.

The Carville boys were hired by Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada, a.k.a. ‘‘Goni,’’ a patrician Bolivian businessman who served a rough term as Bolivia’s president in the mid-’90s. Goni’s legacy was an unsuccessful program of ‘‘capitalization’’ (i.e., he welcomed foreign investment and watched foreigners get all the jobs).

By 2002, the time of filming, unemployment is through the roof and rural campesinos are agitating for political representation. Goni is old news and his poll numbers are dismal. Enter Jeremy Rosner, Greenberg Carville Shrum’s point man in Bolivia, an articulate manipulator of mass moods (and a fellow who bears an uncanny resemblance to Seth Meyers of ‘‘Saturday Night Live’’ — reality parodies itself here better than any comic could).

-snip
http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/articles/2006/06/30/a_campaign_in_bolivia_thats_made_in_america/

[mod mom]

6. and here he is undermining justice (RE: Scooter Libby letter to Judge Walton):

Scooter Libby Love Letters

Washington elite petition judge on behalf of convicted Cheney aide

JUNE 5--Donald Rumsfeld, Henry Kissinger, Paul Wolfowitz, and John Bolton top the list of individuals who wrote a federal judge on behalf of former White House aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who was sentenced today to 30 months in prison for lying to investigators and a federal grand jury examining the leak of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity. On the following 30 pages you'll find an assortment of letters from former colleagues and friends of Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff. The letters, which do not include a missive from Cheney himself, were filed this morning in U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C.. Included in the correspondence is a letter on former Cheney aide Mary Matalin's stationery which is signed by her and husband James Carville, the Democratic strategist. Others writing on Libby's behalf included Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Richard Perle, former Pentagon adviser; James Woolsey, ex-CIA director; Douglas Feith, former Under Secretary of Defense; Christopher Cox, ex-congressman and current Securities and Exchange Commission chairman; Leon Wieseltier, literary editor of The New Republic; former Richard Nixon counsel Leonard Garment; former U.S. Senator Alan Simpson; former Soviet dissident Natan Sharansky; former Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Richard Myers; and Dr. Anthony Fauci, a National Institutes of Health official. Of the 198 letters sent to Judge Reggie Walton, 174 referred positively to Libby, while the balance urged Walton to throw the book at the convicted felon. (30 pages)

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0605071libby1.html

[madfloridian]

14. Isn't it amazing how no Dems want to check that out?

And old baldy is front and center on TV still? It is amazing.

[MelissaB]

19. People need to read this thread.

It's important. K&R

:kick:

[mod mom]

23. Blinders-just like the failure to address DLC links to PNAC

Al From is founder and chief executive officer of the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC), a dynamic idea action center of the "Third Way" governing philosophy that is reshaping progressive politics in the United States and around the globe. He is also chairman of the Third Way Foundation and publisher of the DLC's flagship bi-monthly magazine, Blueprint: Ideas for a New Century.

As a founder of the DLC -- birthplace of the New Democrat movement and the Third Way in America -- and its companion think tank, the Progressive Policy Institute (PPI), From leads a national movement that since the mid-1980s has provided both the action agenda and the ideas for New Democrats to successfully challenge the conventional political wisdom in America and, in the process, redefine the center of the Democratic Party.

-snip

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=86&subid=191&contentid=1131



Will Marshall, the head of PPI signed PNAC letters.
(Called "Bill Clinton's idea mill," the Progressive Policy Institute was responsible for many of the Clinton administration's initiatives...)
Starting right after 9/11.
***************************
Along with such neocon stalwarts as Robert Kagan, Bruce Jackson, Joshua Muravchik, James Woolsey, and Eliot Cohen, a half-dozen Democrats were among the 23 individuals who signed PNAC's first letter on post-war Iraq. Among the Democrats were Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution and a member of Clinton's National Security Council staff; Martin Indyk, Clinton's ambassador to Israel; Will Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute and Democratic Leadership Council; Dennis Ross, Clinton's top adviser on the Israel-Palestinian negotiations; and James Steinberg, Clinton's deputy national security adviser and head of foreign policy studies at Brookings.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0522-10.htm

More about Will Marshall
Note the PNAC link to the left.
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1295

I DON'T GET IT. I WOULD THINK AFTER ALL WE'VE BEEN THROUGH EVERY PROGRESSIVE WOULD WANT TO STEER CLEAR OF THESE FOLKS. JUST LOOK AT WHO THE CLINTONS SURROUND THEMSELVES WITH:

Unionbuster MARK PENN-

Isn't it Time for Mark Penn to Leave Burson-Marsteller?
Posted November 12, 2007 | 11:18 AM (EST)


My colleague at The Nation, Ari Berman, has done more than any journalist to shine some light on how pollster-strategist Mark Penn, head honcho at PR giant Burson-Marsteller, and perhaps the most important figure in Hillary Clinton's campaign, poses a real dilemma for the candidate. Penn heads a firm that has represented everyone from union busters to big tobacco, and more recently Blackwater. (According to a Marsteller spokesperson, it was a subsidiary, BKSH & Associates, run by GOP operative Charlie Black, which helped Erik Prince prepare for congressional hearings after his employees killed civilians in Iraq).It would seem difficult to find a more controversial client than Blackwater but Penn's firm has just been retained by Spin Master.

Who is Spin Master? It turns out that Spin Master distributes Aqua Dots, a toy that was recalled last week because it contains a glue ingredient that when ingested is broken down by the body to make GHB, the "date rape" drug, which can cause unconsciousness and even death. (The Consumer Product Safety Commission says the number of children sickened by Aqua Dots has risen from two to nine in the past week.)

Penn has repeatedly stated that he has no direct contact with controversial clients like Blackwater or unionbusters. But what about the good old-fashioned American principles of responsibility and accountability -- principles which his candidate likes to invoke on the campaign trail? As Ari Berman has pointed out, the dilemma for Clinton is that Penn's firm represents many of the interests whose influence she has vowed to curtail. But as kids get sick from poisonous toys, how can Clinton keep in her corner, as her chief strategist, a man who has even limited involvement with a firm like Burson-Marsteller? Isn't it time that Clinton ask Penn to choose: my campaign to make this a safer country or a PR firm which has too many clients undermining that agenda?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katrina-vanden-heuvel/isnt-it-time-for-mark-pe_b_72206.html

"In '06, with Penn at the helm, the company gave 57% of Campaign Contrib to GOP"



Polling Czar



After the 1994 election, Democrats had just lost both houses of Congress, and President Clinton was floundering in the polls. At the urging of his wife, he turned to Dick Morris, a friend from their time in Arkansas. Morris brought in two pollsters from New York, Doug Schoen and his partner, Mark Penn, a portly, combative workaholic. Morris decided what to poll and Penn polled it. They immediately pushed Clinton to the right, enacting the now-infamous strategy of "triangulation," which co-opted Republican policies like welfare reform and tax cuts and emphasized small-bore issues that supposedly cut across the ideological divide. "They were the ones who said, 'Make the '96 election about nothing except V-chips and school uniforms,'" says a former adviser to Bill. When Morris got caught with a call girl, Penn became the most important adviser in Clinton's second term. "In a White House where polling is virtually a religion," the Washington Post reported in 1996, "Penn is the high priest."

Penn, who had previously worked in the business world for companies like Texaco and Eli Lilly, brought his corporate ideology to the White House. After moving to Washington he aggressively expanded his polling firm, Penn, Schoen & Berland (PSB). It was said that Penn was the only person who could get Bill Clinton and Bill Gates on the same line. Penn's largest client was Microsoft, and he saw no contradiction between working for both the plaintiff and the defense in what was at the time the country's largest antitrust case. A variety of controversial clients enlisted PSB. The firm defended Procter & Gamble's Olestra from charges that the food additive caused anal leakage, blamed Texaco's bankruptcy on greedy jurors and market-tested genetically modified foods for Monsanto. PSB introduced to consulting the concept of "inoculation": shielding corporations from scandal through clever advertising and marketing.

In 2000 Penn became the chief architect of Hillary's Senate victory in New York, persuading her, in a rerun of '96, to eschew big themes and relentlessly focus on poll-tested pothole politics, such as suburban transit lines and dairy farming upstate. Following that election, Penn became a very rich man--and an even more valued commodity in the business world (Hillary paid him $1 million for her re-election campaign in '06 and $277,000 in the first quarter of this year). The massive PR empire WPP Group acquired Penn's polling firm for an undisclosed sum in 2001 and four years later named him worldwide CEO of one of its most prized properties, the PR firm Burson-Marsteller (B-M). A key player in the decision to hire Penn was Howard Paster, President Clinton's chief lobbyist to Capitol Hill and an influential presence inside WPP. "Clients of stature come to Mark constantly for counsel," says Paster, who informally advises Hillary, explaining the hire. The press release announcing Penn's promotion noted his work "developing and implementing deregulation informational programs for the electric utilities industry and in the financial services sector." The release blithely ignored how utility deregulation contributed to the California electricity crisis manipulated by Enron and the blackout of 2003, which darkened much of the Northeast and upper Midwest.

Burson-Marsteller is hardly a natural fit for a prominent Democrat. The firm has represented everyone from the Argentine military junta to Union Carbide after the 1984 Bhopal disaster in India, in which thousands were killed when toxic fumes were released by one of its plants, to Royal Dutch Shell, which has been accused of colluding with the Nigerian government in committing major human rights violations. B-M pioneered the use of pseudo-grassroots front groups, known as "astroturfing," to wage stealth corporate attacks against environmental and consumer groups. It set up the National Smokers Alliance on behalf of Philip Morris to fight tobacco regulation in the early 1990s. Its current clients include major players in the finance, pharmaceutical and energy industries. In 2006, with Penn at the helm, the company gave 57 percent of its campaign contributions to Republican candidates.

-snip
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/berman


-HOWARD WOLFSON

A bevy of current and former Hillary advisers, including her communications guru, Howard Wolfson, are linked to a prominent lobbying and PR firm--the Glover Park Group--that has cozied up to the pharmaceutical industry and Rupert Murdoch.

-SNIP

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070604/berman

[madfloridian]

58. Good post. Great info.

:hi:

[MelissaB]

63. I think this deserves it's own thread.

Excellent work!

[K Gardner]

7. K&Freakin R.. thanks for this.

[madfloridian]

16. You are welcome. The similarity in attacks is amazing.

.

[K Gardner]

21. It is.. and I remember clearly that I had not engaged in the primary season in 2004, still

under huge burnout from 2000 and 9/11 and then the Iraq War, and the first thing I heard when I DID tune in was minimalizing the candidacy of Dean as "internet based" and pretty much relegated to young geeks surfing the internet. I didn't even know much about Dean, but what I learned from the MSM was not good, not positive, and then they capped it off with the Scream.

When you are NOT plugged in, this stuff can be devastating. It cannot be taken lightly.

[madfloridian]

24. We must not take it lightly....frontpaging it at DU alarms me.

I would like to think truth is to be found here. But not so much anymore.

[dchill]

8. It is Carville...

who is the "cult leader" wannabee.

[madfloridian]

55. He did or does have a huge following.

.

[HeraldSquare212]

9. It's meant to clog up all the space for discussion so no one can discuss her policy faults

like the IWR.

[madfloridian]

12. I am inclined to agree.

.

[TexasObserver]

11. Skeletor wants his head back.

[gateley]

13. For some reason I thought Carville and the Clintons had had a falling out...

Was there a reconciliation, or was I just mistaken? Thanks. :hi:

[madfloridian]

15. He was in the car with Bil Clinton at the Nevada caucuses.

I know of no falling out. Carville said they did not tell him to hush when he asked that Dean be dumped.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/348061_joel19.html

[gateley]

30. I'd heard this quite some time ago - before the campaigns got in full swing.

That it was doubtful that Carville would be part o Hillary's campaign.

Obviously I was mistaken. Thanks.

[1776Forever]

18. We are in a Social Movement - Not a Cult!

If they mean a cult is controlled and where no one has a say then I say Obama's supporters are more liberal then any other Democrat supporters. We support his progressive and liberal views and are not blindly being pulled into deceptive practices! We are in a Social Movement to make a lasting and meaningful change in Washington!

:patriot:

[madfloridian]

20. It is being done deliberately.

Just like it was in 2004. It worked in 2004. I hope it does not work now.

[LittleClarkie]

22. Which is why I fear for all that Gov. Dean has done if Hillary gets into the White House

She and her people will do their best to dismantle the 50 state strategy. I hope none of you are attached to your field organizers, esp. if you're in a state that had never gotten attention before.

[madfloridian]

27. He is done in Florida now because of her superdelegates.

The media had a lot to lost when the candidates did not campaign, so they readily went along with the party.

We are in very bad territory right now, and the cult stuff is making it worse.

[Major Hogwash]

26. I think Carville is a racist because of the things he has said over the last 4 years.

And he hasn't said anything to make me think differently of him.

I think the "sister souljah" ploy Hillary's campaign used last month to pit the races against each other in order for Hillary to win is the most dispicable thing I have ever seen a Democrat ever pull.

And I'm not going to change my mind about that one fuckin' bit.

[MelissaB]

28. This should be the most recommended thread on DU.

Forgetting history will do us no good.

Thanks, madfloridian, mod mom, and LittleClarkie.

The three of you continue to be at the top of my favorite posters list. :hi:

[madfloridian]

45. Well, actually....that honor would go to the one calling us cultists

:rofl:

[ShortnFiery]

29. Bill Clinton's mighty DLC machine "takes no prisoners" ... they're trashing our party.

:grr:

[SoxFan]

37. Leave the DLC out of this

This isn't the DLC's fight, and they haven't been pimping for the Clinton campaign this year.

Yes, Hillary is vice chair of the organization, but many DLC-affiliated Democrats are diehard Obama supporters as well (Kathleen Sebelius chairs the DLC's "Ideas Primary", for example).

The DLC fight was a 2004 issue. It's over.

[madfloridian]

41. Yeh, 2004 is over. The DLC won that one against Dean.

They did not use the word cult then, they used "fringe activists"

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/62

[SoxFan]

43. And I suspect that they have learned from 2004

The DLC has actually gone out of its way to give all of the Democratic candidates a forum for their ideas. They haven't been loud cheerleaders for Hillary, and many of the staffers have good relationships with Obama, Edwards, Biden, and Richardson.

[Capn Sunshine]

93. you're right to a point

As an ex member of the DLC I can tell you the Clinton people are strong in that organization, and probably trying to figure out how to "punish" the insurgency. That was certainly their MO during the Dean campaign, which caused an irreparable rift between the DLC and the base.

I assure you the DLC , and to a lesser extent, their pet monkey the DCCC are overwhelmingly trying to shoehorn Hillary into the Presidency.

That the Obama campaign has gotten this far is a testimony to their experienced senior members of the campaign staff, and the Obamas themselves, and the fact that Joe Trippi chose to work for another campaign.

But please remember the DLC does NOT like "insurgencies", or any kind of "bottom up" campaign.

[Cha]

103. Well, that was full of interesting, valuble

information that I have suspected happening over the years but people not that versed in politics could read and learn. Thanks, Capn'!

[cooolandrew]

31. God bless carville, may he find his own peace, don't feel America will fall for it twice though.

[madfloridian]

44. Actually many Democrats still worship the ground Carville walks on.

Wonder if that makes them cultists?

[ZinZen]

47. LOL - MF

I wonder if does indeed? :thumbsup:

[madfloridian]

53. I have been amazed at how many love him.

I don't.

[OzarkDem]

33. Obama supporters are being called cult-like

because they have more enthusiasm than objectivity and are jumping on the bandwagon for a candidate they don't know much about. That's why you see Obama supporters who range from liberal to right wing conservative. What could liberals and Rushbots have in common that would make them choose the same candidate? They're "impulse-buyers" latching on to the newest candidate who has the flashiest rhetoric and lots of money to throw around. They get caught up in the religious fervor of the campaign, don't scrutinize their candidate closely and lose their objectivity.

OTOH, people supported Dean and the DNC because they knew his record and knew he would do what it took to revitalize a moribound Democratic Party.

[madfloridian]

34. I am supporting Obama because of Hillary.

I am sorry but your argument does not hold up.

[OzarkDem]

39. Not every Obama supporter is cult-like

Sorry if I gave that impression. But many who are neophytes to politics are definitely showing signs of it.

My own sister told me last night she voted for Obama in the Missouri primary, but was now changing her mind to support Hillary in the GE. When I asked her why she voted for Obama, she said "because Caroline Kennedy endorsed him, I got caught up in the moment". She was embarrassed about it.

Not everyone is deciding that way, but a lot of them are.

I prefer to choose my candidates because I like their policy and issue statements. Based on past experience, how they speak and answer questions will tel me if they will work for what they say.

But I never support one candidate just because I don't like their competitor, at least not in the primaries ;-) A Dem candidate has to bring a lot more to the table than simply not being the other person.

[madfloridian]

40. Cult should never be used against each other.

.

[tomg]

86. I could not agree more

with your point that the term "cult" is simply wrong and divisive. It serves little purpose in the discussion. At the same time, I think Ozarkdems point about some Obama supporters responding to the charisma of their candidate and their own very real and authentic and justified sense of frustration at the current mess we are in rather than to the policies of their candidate is legitimate.

Case in point: I have four sons, all of whom support Obama. My wife is in favor of Clinton. I am still undecided (for real). Using my sons, to take two extremes and the two most committed to Obama, the one furthest on the left ( also the youngest - big point) is one who clearly has the most emotion, the most passion for change and the fewest facts. The most politically moderate has the most facts, the clearest awareness of policy and recently ( as in this morning when he dropped over) told me, the more he learns about Obama, the more he realizes Obama is exactly who he wants in the presidency. He believes in the guy and he knows the policies.

I teach college and this same kind of pattern is evident among my students. Clearly, not knowing Obama's positions ( or Clinton's positions for that matter) is not the candidates' faults. If anyone wants to find out, they can very easily. I do think, though, that if Obama gets the democratic nod and wins the election ( which he will - either dem will win), as a figure who is charismatic, he could face the "hey, you have been in office for 48 hours, why isn't the world a better place" from some of those very enthusiastic supporters. It is one of the problems a charismatic figures faces.
As a side note, if Obama gets the nod and then wins, I think the best thing he could do is what JFK did with Peace Corps and Space ( who, to me, and I remember both, he resembles more than RFK), except with Global Warming, Alternative Energy, and a CCC type program in order to harness the high enthusiasm of people like my idealistic younger son. Just a thought.

[ZinZen]

48. Wrong!

I am quite aware of Obama's policy positions and where he wants to take the country. I don't have a stinkin Masters degree for nothing.

[npincus]

35. K & R

[npincus]

36. Right. With establishment help, the MSM turned Dean into a Wild-Man

and cooked the audio for the infamous "Dean Scream" to put the final nail in his candidacy. They're at it again; trying to make Obama and his supporters strange, bizarre a.k.a. "cultish".

It WON'T WORK this time.

[madfloridian]

42. I hope we learned...but I don't think so.

The cult thing is now frontpage at DU. And top of the greatest page.

That bothers me.

[Seabiscuit]

82. The sad thing for me back then was that Dean

actually appeared to me to be a "wild man" for the first time during the Scream Speech (I saw it live) even without the cooked audio. I seriously wondered if he was having a nervous breakdown.

[ZinZen]

46. I wouldn't be surprised if that deranged

snake has been pushing this theme in the media. About seven articles came out yesterday regarding Obama supporters=cult. Quite a coincidence, and a losing one.

[madfloridian]

49. Heh heh great minds..

same channel. I highly suspect he is involved.

[wryter2000]

50. Remember his remark about Dean's "Rumsfeldian incompetence"?

He needs to adjust his meds.

[madfloridian]

52. Oh, yes, indeed I do.

After he said that, some researchers got mad and proved him wrong.

From the Down With Tyranny blog...."Who won the house for the Dems redux".

"Summary: So with all of the data in, the conclusion of the original analysis still hold - had the DCCC "swing state" strategy been the dominant strategy in operation during the 2006 election cycle, then the Dems might not have taken the house. And in particular, this update shows that a lot of the late spending by the DCCC in expensive media markets was wasted. At the same time, analysis of DNC spending on infrastructure as part of the "50-state strategy" has been shown to have been quite effective in the 2006 house election cycle. (Elaine Kamarck has an article in The Forum on "Assessing Howard Dean's Fifty State Strategy and the 2006 Midterm Elections" where she shows through statistical analysis that the impact of DNC infrastructure spending doubled the overall Democratic shift in votes.) With that said, the questions I posed in the original post are still out there-- in particular, why did some of these "swing states" fail to fall under intense spending by the DCCC while other "2nd tier" races were picked-up with minimal or no DCCC support."

And this:

"As Table 1 indicates, those congressional districts where the DNC had paid organizers on the ground for over a year more than doubled the Democratic vote over what would have happened due to forces outside the control of the Party, such as the war in Iraq and the unpopularity of a Republican President. This is a powerful testament to the value of a long-term party building approach."

Kamarck was a founder of the DLC, so her remarks are duly noted and appreciated.

[madfloridian]

54. Carville should be suspended for ugly hate speech.

That is my belief and I am sticking to it.

[MelissaB]

56. kick!

:kick:

[madfloridian]

59. I want Carville to apologize and be suspended. He was very ugly.

.

[madfloridian]

57. I think Matalin knew they would do this back in 2005.

Remember what she said on CNN in December 2005? She knew they were going to go after him. They really did not expect the win November 06, so it started then.

Matalin says Dems will "dump" Dean as chair

Does that word sound familiar? Yes, indeed it does. Hubby, Mr. Matalin, said that after November.

[sniffa]

60. When I think of cult I tend to think of another candidate's supporters

I urge you to not get distracted: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4468754&mesg_id=4468754

[madfloridian]

61. The post calling the Obama folks cultists is getting huge attention.

It is frontpaged, top of the greatest page. It appears most of DU think we are cultists.

[madfloridian]

62. LOL He IS working with Hillary's campaign.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0208/Carvilles_strategy_call.html

"A provocative report from a reporter at the Globe & Mail in Toronto, of all places:

James Carville gave an entertaining talk last night at the Grano Speakers Series in Toronto, even if he was careful not to say a whole lot about the presidential race that we couldn't have figured out on our own... he may have forgotten a fairly obvious rule: Don't leave your personal itinerary sitting in full public view in a room full of journalists.

Now, maybe there's some other explanation for it. But personally, if I'd been vigorously denying a role in Hillary Clinton's campaign (beyond financial contributions), I'd probably be especially protective of that itinerary if its front page referred to participating in an "HRC strategy call."

Carville didn't immediately return a call seeking comment.

Here is more from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080207.WBwbradwanski20080207132831/WBStory/WBwbradwanski/

James Carville gave an entertaining talk last night at the Grano Speakers Series in Toronto, even if he was careful not to say a whole lot about the presidential race that we couldn't have figured out on our own. And unlike when he met with the National Post, he mercifully kept his clothes on. But possibly owing to sleep deprivation, he may have forgotten a fairly obvious rule: Don't leave your personal itinerary sitting in full public view in a room full of journalists.

Now, maybe there's some other explanation for it. But personally, if I'd been vigorously denying a role in Hillary Clinton's campaign (beyond financial contributions), I'd probably be especially protective of that itinerary if its front page referred to participating in an "HRC strategy call."

Obviously, Carville isn't front-and-centre in the campaign if he was north of the border the day after Super Tuesday. But even if he's not being paid, it might be open to interpretation how well his claim to not be doing any "domestic political consulting" holds up.

[mmonk]

64. Carville, the K street democratic republican hybrid

infecting the party and his treasonous wife. Excuse me while I throw up.

[vssmith]

79. Exactly what I was thinking

How can you trust someone's judgment who picked a wife like that.

[madfloridian]

65. Ha ha...the post that calls us cultists has 103 recommends.

Guess we know where we stand here at DU among our fellow Democrats.

[AikidoSoul]

89. Once again we have circled the wagons and are

shooting at each other...

[mzmolly]

66. As a former member of the "Dean Cult" I recall that very well.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

67. It is painful to think of all those who are no longer here.

Now that Obama cult post has 110 recommends while really great posts are sinking.

[mzmolly]

68. Yes it is. I miss many of our old "friends".

:(

[madfloridian]

69. 112 recommends for the cult post. Amazing.

I miss Eloriel. Been staying in touch with her some.

[MelissaB]

80. I used to look for her posts.

And all of you were Dean supporters? Wow!

[Obamaniac]

70. I guess Clintonistas figure...

that the only way someone would vote against them is if they are in a cult or something. lol.

[JohnBreauxDemocrat]

71. madfloridian, I think upstarts like Obama and, for his part, Dean

need to let the collected elder statesmen of the party take over this primary, expedite it, and move on to face McCain ASAP. Bill Nelson, John Breaux, Hillary are lifelong Democrats and can handle this -- I promise.

[madfloridian]

72. Will it hurt your feelings if I laugh at that suggestion?

:rofl:

Sorry, I just had to do that. Obama and Dean and folks like them need to stand firm and bring the change needed.

Been getting kind of stale for a while.

[madfloridian]

74. Well, I see that person is no longer with us.

Must have been something he said.

[bbgrunt]

73. it is a truly vile tactic.

[eridani]

75. What it is about is driving ordinary people out of participating in the public sphere

--so our "betters" can arrange things to suit themselves.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

76. it's called politics and it a hellhole of a game...you see it all over this board by both sides

[The Backlash Cometh]

77. The next president is going to need a strong following.

Every president needs a "cult" group, or they'll end up without many defenders when they need it the most, the way that Bill Clinton did.

[Eurobabe]

78. I notice that people call "cult" when someone else

is more popular, has the momentum, and the hearts and souls of supporters. Exactly like Dean did in 2003. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. K&R madfloridian!

[Phred42]

81. Carville is a DLC Stooge - Phuck him!

[defendandprotect]

83. Carville is another poisonous "Democrat" --- who should be tossed overboard ---

[defendandprotect]

84. ...and if Carville is working with Hillary's campaign, another reason not to vote for her ---

[madfloridian]

87. He was on a recent campaign strategy call apparently.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4480161&mesg_id=4492076

I call that working for a campaign if you are in on the strategy.

[KalicoKitty]

85. Look at what Carville married!

And she wears the pants!

[Major Hogwash]

88. Please don't make me - it's not fair to the rest of us who still have good vision.

I saw someone that looked like her at the store once, and I went down the other aisle because I was afraid that she was going to glare at me. Or bite.

[AikidoSoul]

90. Important post. Kick and recommend

The labeling game seems innocuous on the surface but it's not. Calling someone a
"cult" member is corrosive to Americans' fragile self concepts. On average we are
delicate creatures terrified of being labeled anything that might make people
dislike us. More than anything, Americans like to be popular.

The tactics of swiftboataing a candidate is much easier to deal with than indirectly impuning
the character of voters who admire a candidate. The damage is subtle, but real.

[madfloridian]

91. Labeling supporters is a dangerous tactic...

You are right.

[MADem]

92. Another "Whine About the Cult Word" thread!!!!

This must be the fiftieth?

[madfloridian]

94. I had firsties. That was a shameful post.

Did you follow the link to that person's site? Real contempt for Obama.

[MADem]

99. What person's site? There have only been fifty threads on this cult subject.

Most from Obama suporters, complaining about the word.

I say, don't feed it if you don't want people talking it up.

[madfloridian]

95. And do you consider me a cultist? Just wondering.

.

[MADem]

98. Can you articulate Obama's positions--his actual positions, not vague platitudes--

on key issues? Can you describe his plan for the economy, healthcare, the military drawdown from Iraq and what he plans to do in Afghanistan? What are his views on the future of social security, education and schools, and gay rights? How, specifically, will he deal with Russia, Iran, China, Pakistan?

That's the iceberg tip. I am not playing "gotcha" here--I do NOT want you to answer all of these questions. I want you to answer, just to yourself if you like, that you actually do have a decent grasp of most, if not all, of his views on those issues. If you do, then you've made an informed choice. Virtually most I have met are NOT informed.

And it's not just "gaps" in knowledge. They don't have a fucking CLUE! About ANYTHING he supports or opposes. It's frightening.

I talked to a couple of teenagers in the drugstore last week who actually believe that Obama is gonna legalize pot. Why? I shit you NOT--"Because he's black." Oh, and he's against all wars, and for gay marriage, and he is going to get rid of the Army. These are a couple of the idiots who support him. And they pass that bullshit on to their friends, who also believe it. And they vote.

Cultists? Who knows? Fucking STUPID, certainly.

All that crying and hopping up and down and chanting stupid Hope-Change mantras that mean nothing? Like I say, if it walks like a duck....

[madfloridian]

102. Temper temper temper

You are turning me into the enemy here. Are you aware of that?

I don't think either of them are liberal per se. I did not have a choice until I marked my ballot that day. But I do now.

And it is because of the power games and manipulations the Clinton campaign is using against my state.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1816

[MADem]

105. See? That's the kind of shit I am talking about. I ask you something calmly, quietly and

very reasonably, and I didn't even ASK you to PROVE that you knew--I specifically said, NO GOTCHA's, merely a YES or NO.....and you reply with

Temper, temper, temper.


Which, sadly, leads me to believe you DON'T know the answers to those issues I posed--and perhaps the one with the temper is...you.

And that's the precise point that troubles me with Obama supporters. No specifics, and constant, whiney attacks about how everyone is being MEAN to Obama, when all they're doing is asking him to be HALF as specific as Edwards, Clinton, Richardson, Dodd or Biden--it really gets old. Hell, Kucinich had more detail than Obama.

And then you pull out the "But Clinton is (fill in some whiny complaint suggesting that Obama is, again, a "victim").

Hey, go ahead and support the guy. I am uninterested in changing your mind, and don't expect to. I do wish you'd know what you were supporting, though. A nice smile and a boyish figure aren't enough.

I think he's a nice fellow, but a half-empty suit. I actually do know his positions, and I find them WANTING in both scope and specificity. And most importantly, I don't want a Perpetual VICTIM in the top job--I just don't. He needs to step up and explain himself, and ease up on the chanting, the platitudes, and the telling people that they are going to have an epiphany and vote for him--that's just bullshit, designed to appeal to the 'lowest common denominator.

[madfloridian]

106. This is NOT calmly and quietly .....your quotes...

"And it's not just "gaps" in knowledge. They don't have a fucking CLUE! About ANYTHING he supports or opposes. It's frightening.

I talked to a couple of teenagers in the drugstore last week who actually believe that Obama is gonna legalize pot. Why? I shit you NOT--"Because he's black." Oh, and he's against all wars, and for gay marriage, and he is going to get rid of the Army. These are a couple of the idiots who support him. And they pass that bullshit on to their friends, who also believe it. And they vote.

Cultists? Who knows? Fucking STUPID, certainly.

All that crying and hopping up and down and chanting stupid Hope-Change mantras that mean nothing? Like I say, if it walks like a duck.... "

That is what you said to me.

[MADem]

108. Again--context. You fail, deliberately perhaps, to note the CONTEXT.

Those comments were not directed at you, they were directed at the situation I was recounting to you. But Obama supporters, I have found, are OVER EAGER to take offense.

Take those things you put in bold, and recognize that they're in the context of THIS:

I talked to a couple of teenagers in the drugstore last week who actually believe that Obama is gonna legalize pot. Why? I shit you NOT--"Because he's black." Oh, and he's against all wars, and for gay marriage, and he is going to get rid of the Army. These are a couple of the idiots who support him. And they pass that bullshit on to their friends, who also believe it. And they vote.



Those ARE "fucking STUPID" kids. They don't have knowledge gaps--they don't have a CLUE.

It IS frightening. This kind of stupidity, and these are the people who attend those kind of cult-bullshit-no specifics "rallies."

And then, you completely IGNORED my reply.

Which is the pattern--if it gets too specific, ignore it, and attack Clinton, even if she isn't the topic of conversation.

It gets old.

[madfloridian]

109. CONTEXT means nothing when you are being insulting.

.

[MADem]

110. But I wasn't being insulting. You are taking offense because it is easier to pretend

to be aggrieved than actually discuss the real issues I have raised.

That's unfortunate.

[The Wizard]

96. Carville is part of the old guard Democrats

that undermined Dean in 04. They still adhere to the 20th Century model where corporate money is raised to buy TV time. The presidents of large corporations have one vote, the same as everyone else. Obama has raised more from far more individuals who all feel as though they have a stake in the system.
The days of raising large sums of money for TV advertising are a remnant of 20th Century campaigns. The fact is, most voters know the TV ads are bullshit and use their remote controls when they appear on the tube. Even Karl Rove agrees with this. What Rove did successfully in 04 was have the news media carry the Swift Boat attacks against Kerry as news, thus they were perceived as news, not political ads. In essence, the corporate media gave donations in kind to the Bush campaign.
Unfortunately, the media belongs to large corporations that reap huge benefits from Republican rule. Look for more of the same.
Carville is hanging on to the past because that's all he knows. He had success with Bill Clinton because of Bill Clinton not because he knew more than others.
The idea of marginalizing the party's base is foolish.
The biggest reasons Hillary is in trouble are her IWR vote and her vote for the Kyl - Lieberman Amendment. Both were done out of fear of being labeled soft on terror by the Republicans. Running scared is a bad strategy. Both votes were calculated through the prism of a compromised political philosophy. If a candidate is perceived as fearful of the opposition, that perception is magnified against the back drop of a foreign enemy. It is apparent that the Clinton's can't read the tea leaves, still believing that you have to appeal to the war monger wing of the Republican Party. This triangulation strategy worked sixteen years ago, but the landscaped has changed, primarily because of the Iraq occupation that has most of the country demanding an end to the occupation and the drain on our treasury.
The majority, around 70%, believe Bush lied us into war and want it stopped now, not 10 years from now. Hillary's refusal to apologize for giving Bush war powers, and her vote to give him authority to attack Iran, were calculated votes that didn't reflect the will of the majority.
As despicable as Karl Rove is, he's smarter than Carville.
James Carville is still building the bridge to the 21st Century. Howard Dean crossed it in 2003, bringing the grass roots along for the ride. The Internet made us the activists that supply the energy.
Television is for Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Keith Olbermann and sporting events.
A word of advice to James Carville, alienate the base at your own risk. The rest of us have a Constitution to restore.

[Capn Sunshine]

97. Certainly people understand this is a prized tactic against the "antiestablishment"

Obama's campaign , despite the efforts of the Establishment Dems , has continued to grow; They are worried that the insurgents might actually prevail, which is a threat to their phoney-baloney jobs; the mission for the Establishment Dems is to protect their turf, so they start up this nonsense.

It was supposed to be over now; Hillary obviously budgeted accordingly.

Bottom line, this is about "bottom up" Democratic activism VS "Top down" Democratic authoritarianism.

[Cha]

100. Translation from carville is

The People are taking back their country from the dlc's corporate headquarters and he and mary don't like it. Neither, does bil and hil.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

101. Harold Ford was head of the DLC when Obama campaigned for his Senate bid.

[madfloridian]

104. Check your dates. I don't think he became chair until after he lost in TN.

Here you go.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=254178

[JNelson6563]

107. What IS funny about this whole thing is

some who are screaming and crying the loudest about the "cult" thing are those who used that and anything else they could think of to hurl at us Dean supporters last time.

Oh the irony.

Julie