**** OFFICIAL REAL ISSUE THREAD#1: POVERTY****

[Labors of Hercules]

"Poverty Rising: There are nearly 37 million poor Americans. Most Americans living in poverty work, but still cannot afford to make ends meet.

Minimum Wage is Not Enough: Even when a parent works full-time earning minimum wage and EITC and food stamps are factored into their income, families are still $1,550 below the federal poverty line because of the flat-lined minimum wage."

As a starting point, View Obama's plan to combat poverty here:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/poverty/

View Hillary's plan to combat poverty here:

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

WHAT IS THE BEST PLAN TO COMBAT POVERTY IN THE UNITED STATES? --> DISCUSS: AND PLEASE include lots of juicy information, links, op-eds, ideas and any other relevant details in support of an INFORMATIVE discussion on this important subject!

[Proud2BAmurkin]

1. Obama claimed he "pushed the wrong button" on a funding bill for child welfare

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

3. His standard excuse when present will not work!

[Labors of Hercules]

5. Can you submit a link to the bill showing that it passed without his voting for it?

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

2. I support Hillary, but a poverty post demands Edwards proposals.

[texastoast]

39. How is that going to help Exxon? n/t

[Viva_La_Revolution]

83. Hear, Hear!! nt

[TwilightGardener]

4. What a dull thread idea. Sorry, this is not up to DU standards.

edit: ;-)

[Labors of Hercules]

8. yeah... I know. I meant to add a picture of Hillary bludgeoning homeless vets...

to death with a giant rubber cigar. :shrug:

[Beaverhausen]

6. Did either of them vote on the stimulus package yesterday?

Just curious - not making a judgement.

Glad to see Obama has a plan for poverty. This Edwards supporter hope this issue- which I think it extremely important - gets to be front and center.

[Labors of Hercules]

11. I hope you know I posted this thread in your honor, Beaverhausen...

in response to: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4488403&mesg_id=4488403

:hi:

[Beaverhausen]

81. I thought so, and thank you

It's nice that it is getting some attention!

:hi:

[Labors of Hercules]

20. They went on Wednesday to vote, but they couldn't stay and it was delayed...

"Only three senators didn't vote on the stimulus package, among them Sens. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama."

Here's Obama's statement on it though:

Obama Statement on the Senate's Passage of the Economic Stimulus Package
Thursday, February 7, 2008
Printable Format

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: Michael Ortiz, 202 228 5566

WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) today released the following statement after the Senate's passage of the Recovery Rebates and Economic Stimulus for the American People Act of 2008, H.R. 5140, which passed by a vote of 81 to 16. Yesterday, Senator Obama voted in favor of the economic stimulus package, which was initially blocked by Senate Republicans.

"As millions of hardworking Americans face foreclosure, unemployment, and bills they can't pay, it's critical that Republicans and Democrats finally came together to pass a stimulus package that provides immediate tax relief to working families, seniors, and veterans.

"This is similar to the stimulus package I proposed weeks ago, and it will put needed money back into the pockets of working Americans in order to give our economy the boost it needs as we face down a possible recession.

"While this bill will provide immediate relief to millions of Americans, I also believe that we must do more to extend unemployment insurance for all Americans and more to help those suffering from the home foreclosure crisis. I expect that the President will sign this bill immediately."

[OzarkDem]

59. Yeah, the stimulus package isn't much

the Dems didn't get everything they wanted, obviously, because they had to deal with dickhead's veto against the need to get something done quickly.

A while back, someone here mentioned it was like taking water out of one end of the swimming pool and pouring it into the other end.

I wouldn't judge either candidate too harshly on their vote, but more on what they specifically plan to do to address inflation, etc.

[Jed Dilligan]

7. Obama's got a really solid agenda,

Hillary's issues are squarely focused on the middle class. I think poor people are going to get badly screwed by these healthcare mandates.

[Labors of Hercules]

14. I very much agree with you...

I think Obama's plan is more practical, by not FORCING people to buy in, the expenses saved from not having to cover those who prefer not to buy are transferred to subsidies for those who want it, but can't afford it.

It's just a simple fact that you gain a shitload more from not having to cover people who don't want the insurance than you would from making them pay into the system.

[OzarkDem]

51. Clinton's detailed plan to move the poor to middle class

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3618

Hillary’s economic blueprint to restore the American middle class includes:

Harnessing innovation to create the high-wage jobs of the 21st Century
Creating a $50 billion Strategic Energy Fund to jumpstart research and development of alternative energies
Strengthening unions and ensuring our trade laws work for all Americans
Providing quality, affordable health care to every American
Making college accessible and affordable
Confronting the growing problems in the housing market
Bolstering retirement security by promoting savings and investment
Returning to fiscal responsibility and moving towards balanced budgets

[Labors of Hercules]

55. Thanks for that! Excellent!

:applause:

[OzarkDem]

61. No, thank you!

I love public policy. Bill Clinton was the man who taught me to like it.

On edit, include Al Gore. The two of them were the greatest team for REALLY creative public policy. Some day they will get the credit they deserve.

[Jed Dilligan]

66. That's too many steps/years away for the people on the streets,

in the projects, and in prison. Obama wants to help grow the middle class but also act now to help our most desperate citizens and communities.

The Clinton-era boom should have ended homelessness and other new immiserations of the Reagan-Bush era. It didn't, so I can't trust another Clinton to deal with these lingering issues effectively, especially not in a bust economy. At least Obama cut his teeth working on poverty issues.

This is not meant to be harsh on her, just the viewpoint from someone who experienced homelessness during the "prosperous" 1990s and has worked on homelessness and extreme poverty issues for more than ten years.

[OzarkDem]

69. Don't mistake Bush II for Clinton

Clinton's programs were working, very well. Especially the community block grant programs which allowed states and local governments to use the funds to focus on what was needed in their areas. If homelessness wasn't dealt with that well in your area, it may have had to do with your state or local government and how they chose to focus the funding.

But when Bush was elected (and even some before then under the GOP Congress' budget cuts), the money evaporated so quickly it was unbelievable. States and counties lost billions in funding practically overnight.

[Jed Dilligan]

72. I'd like to see any study with a decent methodology

that backs up your claim. Hint: I wrote my thesis on homelessness, have reviewed all the literature, and the consensus is that fluctuations in the homeless population are extremely hard to measure and any claims that are made are tenuous.

I worked on Block Grant programs under a Clinton and the idea of them ever eliminating homelessness is a joke. (How does a shelter end homelessness, anyway? It isn't a home.) The only way to do it is to bring wages up, drive the price of housing down, or some combination of both. Under Clinton wages rose, but the price of housing skyrocketed. Gentrification actually put more people on the streets when the dot-com money started flowing into the Bay Area, where I lived through most of the nineties.

I agree it's worse now, but a lot of that probably has to do with economic fluctuations that would have happened even if we had Steve Jobs and Larry Page as presidents.

[OzarkDem]

74. I agree with you Jed

on the wage side of the equation, it didn't have the long term impact it should have. But I think even the Clinton/Gore policy people have learned more about what worked and what didn't re wages, jobs and the silly idea of everyone buying a home. You must also acknowledge that health care reform and mental health parity were also key factors in not seeing desired results in reducing homelessness.

That said, I would rather see Hillary pick up where Bill left off, learning from the flaws in his programs (which were few) and moving forward than breaking in a new guy who may pull a "Bush" on us and decide he wants to do everything the opposite of what Bill Clinton did. Obama is just an unknown quantity in that respect.

[Jed Dilligan]

76. I think that Obama's plans are doomed to success

By focusing on affordable housing and ex-prisoner programs, he shows an actual understanding of the lives that are typically touched by homelessness.

Clinton has made no acknowledgment of the post-prison needs of our 2 million inmates, and the words "affordable housing" do not appear on her website that I've seen.

The "Promise Neighborhoods" are a great idea too. I'm now working in education and it's really clear that whole-community approaches are the way to solve the achievement gap, starting with making sure every public school student is adequately fed and clothed. Bill's "Enterprise Zones" don't compare, because the market-based approach is a dead end.

Hillary's "wonky" approaches, designed to deliver big-number results, are pie-in-the-sky to the millions of "forgotten Americans." They will bring people into the middle class, which is great for those people. But they leave the lingering problems of the inner cities in particular basically untouched. I want her to at least acknowledge that some of us will never be homeowners, will remain in temp or contract jobs, and need at least a little more security than we've been offered in the past.

I disagree with her health care plan because it seems regressive. What I don't know is whether or not she's talked about fully funding community care for the mentally ill and physically disabled, which was supposed to replace state institutions starting in the 1970s. That would be a very bold and important step towards getting America off the streets.

[Coexist]

9. I'm sorry I can't join the discussion

apparantly 1/2 the people in the discussion are on my ignore list.

I hope this thread does well, though.

[Labors of Hercules]

15. Well then, I am flattered!

That I at least, am not on your ignore list! :pals:

[Beaverhausen]

10. please give this thread some recs so it's on the greatest page

please lets talk issues!!!

edit- oops- I mean thread.

[HeraldSquare212]

12. Obama's idea of improving transportation access to jobs is spot-on

People either have to forego jobs because there is no cheap transportation, or they have to spend hours and hours at the beginning and end of their shifts traversing a patchwork of buses and trains and cabs. I am an Obama supporter, but that kind of real-world consciousness is very impressive to me.

[OzarkDem]

35. Bill Clinton did it during his administration

with block grants which could be used for the same thing. In our area, they even used the money to help low income people buy used cars, etc. as part of welfare to work. He tied public transportation funds to improving bus routes to get people to where the jobs were. When Bush took office, all that money disappeared.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. THANK YOU for starting this thread

and labeling it in this way!

And thank you for the links to plans. Obama's was the only specific one, and so it is this one that I will address:

The idea of having a Nurse-Family Partnership is a good start. 10 years ago I worked for special services which provided help to new mothers, teaching everything from nutrition and hygiene to parenting skills. I worked in a day care for developmentally delayed children. I think that the home program, from which our children came, was very helpful. Only got good marks from the parents, many of whom said the nurses were a lifesaver.

I think Obama could combine the green jobs program with transportation. The next President will need to address the problem of energy. If we can start towards energy independence, this can help us in many different ways.

[Labors of Hercules]

16. We have just added 4 new hybrid buses to our system...

here in Chapel Hill. The bus system is subsidized by the University, and since the city is more or less compact, the buses are clean, on-time and best of all, FREE!!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. Free rides will help the poor

Next we need to work on high speed rail.

[Labors of Hercules]

27. Amen to that! Got any innovative ways to fund it?

hmmm... how bout a coop system?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

46. That's one good way

another would be to legalize hemp and then tax it.

[Labors of Hercules]

48. heh! I like the way you think!

How about light-rail casinos?

[OzarkDem]

63. Public transportation is the way to go

Do Clinton or Obama have many details on how much they will fund? I would love to see huge investment in passenger rail.

[1776Forever]

18. He has also proposed help for Homeless Veterans - See link please:

http://obama.senate.gov/

Obama Introduces Bill To Prevent Veterans Homelessness

WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senator Barack Obama (D-IL) yesterday introduced the Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act, which would launch an innovate pilot program to pair housing for at-risk veterans and veteran families with supportive services in an effort to prevent veterans from falling into homelessness.

:patriot:

[texastoast]

17. I've already seen the Clinton legacy for poor Americans

I live in Texas. The NAFTA trucks are coming through here regularly. NAFTA truck drivers are paid about $40 a day. I have family who are in the business, so I know.

Can you live on $40 a day? Can you support a family on $40 a day?

And I'm not talking about Americans who compete with these people who are willing to subsist on $40 a day. These are the Mexicans who will work for this.

This is the Clinton corporate legacy. Bill should have taken Nancy's advice about just saying no when it came to passing NAFTA.

[Jed Dilligan]

19. The boom they lucked into should have solved Reagan-era homelessness.

It didn't. Homelessness proceeded at Reagan-era rates and only the middle class benefited.

[texastoast]

24. I didn't see much homelessness in Houston

until the Reagan era. I haven't seen a decrease since.

[Labors of Hercules]

31. What policies impacted Houston's homelessness?

And what should be done to reverse it?

[texastoast]

38. In the 80s in Houston

We had our worst foreclosure time ever. Entire subdivisions were foreclosed upon. Reagan took away benefits from some folks who often end up on the streets (abandoned schizophrenics) and the institutions who support them.

Part of it had to do with the savings and loan bailout. We had to bail out junk bonders like billionaires Charles Hurwitz (Maxxan Corp.--clearcutting purchaser of Northwest Pacific Lumber). I fear that this same spooning relationship will be applied to the upcoming subprime bailout.

To reverse what I suspect will be coming down the pike is to not bail out the banks who loaned in the subprime market. Let their shareholders take the hit instead of the way we 80s taxpayers did. Further, in the "economic stimulus package," we should have (too late) not cut the care for the poor.

[Labors of Hercules]

45. "Let their shareholders take the hit"...

Damn right. Even a market recession is no excuse to bail out shareholders.

[OzarkDem]

41. The state has a lot to do with it

Most states use a combination of federal, state and local funds to deal with those issues. Because Texas has no income tax, it has little money to match the federal dollars that come in. Its a conscious decision on the Texas' part - you don't pay taxes, there's no money to help people.

[Labors of Hercules]

47. So much for "people helping people".

It's amazing how much evidence there is that this little nugget of conservative philosophy is total bullshit and never works.

[OzarkDem]

53. I know, I'm no expert on Texas

but I lived there for 3 years. I was always shocked at how much like a 3rd world country it was. IIRC in 1989, one third of the people in the Dallas Ft Worth area had no health insurance. My husband was working as a computer programmer for a large company and they had NO health insurance plan for their employees.

[texastoast]

49. We have oil revenues

that most states do not.

[Labors of Hercules]

56. Who receives these revenues?

Does the state tax the oil companies?

[texastoast]

58. Sure

to an extent after all the exemptions and credits for creating jobs, practicing good environmental habits, etc. (don't get me started). And most of it goes into our "general revenue fund" from which all kinds of special interests (including education) are funded.

[OzarkDem]

62. I don't think much of it goes into social programs

I recall living there in the 80's the most anyone could get in the form of public assistance was about $200 a month. I used to walk past the Tarrant Co welfare office every day going to and from work. It was a tiny little old brick building. You almost never saw any clients going in or out of there. Public assistance was nearly non-existent there.

[texastoast]

64. Texas? Not compassionate?

But two-thirds of the population (read legislators) are CHRISTIAN!

How could they possibly turn away from their fellow citizens in need?

:sarcasm:

[OzarkDem]

70. I know, I know

Holy cow, every time you met someone, they always tried to work religion into the conversation. I recall getting in a fender-bender in downtown Ft. Worth once. The towing company took my car away and a nice man who worked nearby offered to give me a ride to my office. As soon as I got in the truck he asked me which church I attended. When I named a local Catholic Church, he went pale and almost made me get out of the truck.

I decided in short order I didn't want to raise my boys there. The local high school they would have attended had a Confederate flag as its mascot. Ugh.

[thevoiceofreason]

68. Yes

There is a state severance tax, usually around 7%, on hydrocarbons removed

[OzarkDem]

37. That's Bush I and II's legacy, not Clinton's

Bush I put the NAFTA agreements into place, Clinton managed to get some provisions added to protect the environment and US jobs, but Congress overruled him on much of it. Once Bush II took over, the rules & enforcement were thrown out the window and you have the mess you just described.

If you're going to make a good argument, make sure you understand who was responsible for what.

[texastoast]

44. Who signed it?

Thank God I had a rep at that time who actually spoke out against it. It was when I lived in a blue neighborhood. Yes, we have them in Texas.

And no, being from Texas, we've had the troubles since NAFTA was put into place. It was just as bad under Clinton.

[Thrill]

21. Hillary voted for No Child Left Behind NOW

shes against it

Voted for the Patriot Act now shes against it

Voted for the Iraq War now shes against it

Voted for the Bankruptcy Bill Now shes against it

You seen this movie before? Repukes will destroy her.

Another Liberal Flip Flopper. Get ready for it

[Labors of Hercules]

22. Hey Brent, I posted this thread specifically to avoid simplistic nonspecific bullshit.

So please take it outside, would you? :spank:

[no name no slogan]

26. Lots of Dems voted for NCLB and are now against it

Dennis Kucinich voted for NCLB too, and now he's against it.

The bill as written was not bad. However, Congress refused to properly fund it. It left in place the mandates, but did not devote any money so that those mandates could be achieved.

And THAT is the reason why NCLB was so bad. Not the bill itself, but the lack of funding for its goals.

[Labors of Hercules]

36. That's the problem with "Conservatives"...

They like to pass fairly decent legislation and then fuck it up by cutting taxes, not funding it properly and then screaming to their base about how inept government is...

Talk about self-defeating bullshit. :eyes:

[no name no slogan]

40. "Conservatives say government doesn't work and get elected to prove it"

That's a quote I heard from noted conservative columnist P.J. O'Rourke.

I work in the public sector, and the unfunded mandate is the bane of our existence. Unfortunately, politicians like to pass sweeping legislation and then think that somehow things will just happen without paying people to do it. Nobody works for free.

[texastoast]

52. Ding! Ding! Ding!

We got us an integrity issue.

I'm almost to the point of thinking 2012 "will be our year."

If only we can find a candiate who does the right thing.

[Dogmudgeon]

25. We also need legislative vote synopses and the official records

Most of this stuff is on-line.

Just a suggestion.

--p!

[Labors of Hercules]

28. You don't get off that easily Pig...

you can cut and paste just as easily as I can! Post them... Please?!!!

[Tatiana]

29. Well here are some ideas from one of the candidates:

• Invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce.
  
  
• Create a Green Jobs Corps to directly engage disadvantaged youth in energy efficiency opportunities to strengthen their communities, while also providing them with practical skills in this important high-growth career field.
  
  
• Double the federal Jobs Access and Reverse Commute program to ensure that additional federal public transportation dollars flow to the highest-need communities and that urban planning initiatives take this aspect of transportation policy into account.
  
  
• Give ex-offenders access to job training, substance abuse and mental health counseling, and employment opportunities. Create a prison-to-work incentive program.
  
  
• Increase the number of working parents eligible for EITC benefits, increase the benefits available to parents who support their children through child support payments, increase benefits for families with three or more children, and reduce the EITC marriage penalty, which hurts low-income families.
  
  
• Raise the minimum wage and index it to inflation to make sure that full-time workers can earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs such as food, transportation, and housing.
  
  
• All low and middle-income workers get a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck.
  
  
• Eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.
  
  
• Expand the Nurse-Family Partnership to all 570,000 low-income, first-time mothers each year. The Nurse-Family Partnership provides home visits by trained registered nurses to low-income expectant mothers and their families.
  
  
• Guarantee all workers seven paid sick days per year.
  
  
• Create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund to develop affordable housing in mixed-income neighborhoods.
  
  
• Fully fund the Community Development Block Grant program.
  
  
• Create 20 Promise Neighborhoods in areas that have high levels of poverty and crime and low levels of student academic achievement in cities across the nation. The Promise Neighborhoods will be modeled after the Harlem Children's Zone, which provides a full network of services, including early childhood education, youth violence prevention efforts and after-school activities, to an entire neighborhood from birth to college.
  
  OK so my top five are:
  
  No taxes for seniors making under $50K
  
  Indexing the minimum wage rate for inflation
  
  Putting ex-offenders into workforce training programs. (We often neglect this segment of our population. What happens to offenders when they get out of prison? Why don't we do something to decrease the likelihood that they will re-offend?)
  
  $500 rebate for low to middle income workers to offset the payroll tax
  
  Promise Neighborhoods (When implemented correctly, these sort of empowerment zones can really revitalize neighborhoods WITHOUT the displacement of the low-income residents. Chicago has experimented with this sort of program with some success.)
  
  I would only add that I wish someone would make fixing our ailing infrastructure a public works project at some point.

[Bread and Circus]

30. Thank you for posting this thread.

[Labors of Hercules]

32. You are most welcome!

Keep it kicked, because I'd like to hear from as many DUers that are impacted by the issue of poverty as possible!

:yourock:

[OzarkDem]

33. Combating poverty covers multiple issue areas

(note: hard to concentrate the boys' heavy metal band is practicing downstairs tonight)

For each candidate you need to look under their platforms for economic development/jobs creation.

Both candidates are for helping families, not so much about helping people with no dependent children.

Both support an increase in the minimum wage and job expansion with new energy technology,

Clinton mentions dealing with trade agreements to keep high paying jobs in the US (ie NAFTA/GATT issues) Obama doesn't mention it or I couldn't find it

Both mention assistance w/ mortgage crisis, Clinton has more detail

Records:

Bill Clinton had a very good record on dealing with poverty issues. He did a fantastic job investing in low income areas, boosting education funding, building rec centers, shopping centers, loans to businesses, rebuilding neighborhoods, etc. He was a master at targeted tax incentives to encourage investment w/o creating corporate welfare. His only problem was in not acting soon enough to deal with violations of trade agreements.

[Labors of Hercules]

42. Here's a quick find, can't attest to accuracy:

http://usliberals.about.com/od/2008candidatesonissues/a/DemFreeTrade.htm

HILLARY CLINTON (See Clinton in 2008 News & Info Hub)
Hillary Clinton's husband and top political advisor, former President Bill Clinton, was a chief architect and promoter of the controversial North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which was signed into law with much fanfare by Mr. Clinton on September 14, 1993.

Critics contend that NAFTA caused the loss of a million U.S. jobs outsourced to non-industrialized countries, and hasn't delivered on the promises of widespread prosperity.

Both Clintons are active leaders of the Democratic Leadership Council, a pro-corporate interests, centrist Democratic organization that fully supports U.S. free trade arrangements.

In 2007 , however, Sen. Clinton has expressed interest for a few changes to U.S. trade pacts. Commented the senator during a June 2007 debate, "We have to do several things: end the tax breaks that still exist in the tax code for outsourcing jobs, have trade agreements with enforceable labor and environmental standards... "

Sen. Clinton has voted YES for all free trade agreements presented during her tenure in Congress, except for the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) in 2005.

Sen. Clinton voted to extend "most favored nation trade status" to China despite the country's record of substantial human rights violations.

Summary for Hillary Clinton on Free Trade

* Is she generally a supporter of U.S. free trade: YES
* Does she actively push for major modifications to U.S. free trade arrangements? NO

BARACK OBAMA (See Obama in 2008 News & Info Hub)
About NAFTA, Sen. Obama said in a Democratic primary forum in 2007: "I would immediately call the president of Mexico, the president of Canada to try to amend NAFTA because I think that we can get labor agreements in that agreement right now. And it should reflect the basic principle that our trade agreements should not just be good for Wall Street, it should also be good for Main Street."

About free trade, Sen. Obama said at the same 2007 forum: "... people don't want a cheaper T-shirt if they're losing a job in the process. They would rather have the job and pay a little bit more for a T-shirt. And I think that's something that all Americans could agree to.

"But this raises a larger point, which is: globalization is here. And we should be trading around the world. We don't want to just be standing still while the rest of the world is out there taking the steps that it needs to in order to expand trade."

On granting to China "most favored nation trade status", Sen. Obama stated in 2004:

"The U.S. should be firm on issues that divide us
Sen. Obama voted NO on the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA) in 2005, and voted YES in 2006 on a free trade pact with Oman.

When he voted against CAFTA, Sen. Obama stated: "There are real problems in the agreement itself. It does less to protect labor than previous trade agreements, and does little to address enforcement of basic environmental standards in the Central American countries and the Dominican Republic...

"So far, almost all of our energy and almost all of these trade agreements are about making life easier for the winners of globalization, while we do nothing as life gets harder for American workers."

Summary for Barack Obama on Free Trade

* Is he generally a supporter of U.S. free trade: YES
* Does he actively push for major modifications to U.S. free trade arrangements? YES

[OzarkDem]

50. Couple of things

Regardless of what your link says, Bush I administration was the architecht of NAFTA and GATT. It had already been negotiated when Clinton came into office. Negotiations began back in the 1980's. It was on track for passage during his administration and he made changes to it before then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

Clinton did a "mend it, don't end it" because he truly felt that improving the economic situation in third world countries would bring about political stability. He never intended for it to result in the loss of millions of US jobs under the Bush administration.

Hillary Clinton on free trade:

Check her web site. It clearly states she supports changes and enforcement of trade restrictions that hurt US jobs

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3618

Do you have a link where Obama details what he would do about loss of US jobs to unfair foreign trade policies? I couldn't find any details at his web site.

[Labors of Hercules]

54. Here's his section on trade:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#trade

Also:

American Jobs: Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.

[OzarkDem]

60. Thanks!

the issues part of the candidate's web sites are hard to navigate sometimes, though I wouldn't want to have to design one myself.

It looks good to propose giving incentives to employers who keep jobs in the US... BUT

You have to keep in mind, so many of them are getting so many tax cuts under Bushco right now, they, seriously, almost don't need anymore tax cuts. They have a veritable banquet of tax cuts to choose from and they'll go with the ones that not only give them a good cut, but also allow them to increase their profits. They won't buy into a tax cut to pay higher wages if there's already another tax cut that will still allow them to use cheap overseas labor.

The only way tax "incentives" can work to protect US jobs is if the carrot is complemented by a "stick". Either take way the tax cuts that still allow them to ship jobs overseas or put in a "disincentive" that punishes them for doing it. Or both. Most likely this crew of US manufacturers is so drunk with tax breaks you'll need to hit them coming and going.

[no name no slogan]

34. K & R

nt

[Samantha]

43. Recommended!

I also agree with Obama that mandates are counter-productive. There are some people who simply cannot afford a dime. He has explained that those people will eventually be put in a position to have health care, through government subsidies.

Additionally, there are some people who are wealthy enough to not have to have insurance. They should not be forced to participate when they can easily pay the bills themselves should the need arise. Many people hate paying insurance when they do not have to, and I do not think the Federal Government has the right to insist they do so just to lower other's premiums.

I think poverty, as Edwards said, is one of the primary issues upon which we should be focused. I will come back and read the different policies as soon as I can. But I also think we need to find a way to hold the government's feet to the fire on follow-up on this issue, regardless of which candidate is elected. It's not good enough to make a promise to deal with the issue; they must deliver.

Sam

[blogslut]

57. I shall kick this thread

I dig the green jobs program and the effort to invest in public transportation. I have been on welfare and let me tell ya, that other Clinton's idea of reform sucked and I am never forgiving him for having done that.

Want to hear something crazy? Guess whose program I found to be the most helpful while I was trying to scratch my way out of poverty?

Dan Quayle's - The Job Training Partnership Act of 1982 - otherwise known as the Quayle-Kennedy Bill

Of course, JTPA is gone now. So much is gone.

Great thread idea though. :)

[Labors of Hercules]

71. Have I mentioned yet how much I like your id?

it's so damned poetic. :loveya:

[blogslut]

73. Aww shucks

You mean the Pickens thing? I stole the term but my dislike for the man is personal.

[Jed Dilligan]

65. Another kick for the best thread of the day

wish I could R it again.

[OzarkDem]

75. I did for you

How's that?

[proud patriot]

67. kick

[Deja Q]

77. A solid nation begins with a solid economy that most everybody can participate in.

It doesn't get much more simple than that.

:shrug:

[OzarkDem]

78. Very true

and we can't do that unless we get out of Iraq. But that's another thread, right?

[Jed Dilligan]

79. Kick

GDP is really boring right now

[OzarkDem]

80. Kick

[OzarkDem]

82. Come on Obama supporters

Show us you can discuss issues....

[Jed Dilligan]

84. I'm just waiting for your response to my last post, OD.

[Leopolds Ghost]

85. Need a Real Issue Thread on Impending Wiretap Legislation

Which "Traitor-Dog" Dems support.

[intheflow]

86. Kick. n/t