Obama, Biden, Edwards, Richardson, and Kucinich dropped out of the MI primary for a reason!!!

[RiverStone]

What am I missing!?

Now MI gets to seat their delegates?

here:

http://www.mlive.com/elections/index.ssf/2008/02/michigan_dems_allocated_delega.html

Last I heard, the DNC vowed NOT TO SEAT Michigan's 156 delegates (and Florida's 210).

Please check out this refresher course on why Obama, Biden, Richardson, Edwards, and Kucinich withdrew from the MI primary:

CNN
10/09/2007

Five Democratic presidential candidates Tuesday sought to officially withdraw from Michigan's January 15 primary, rendering the event virtually insignificant.

Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, Sen. Joe Biden of Delaware, New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, and Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio all announced the move Tuesday, the deadline for filing such paperwork.

The feud between the Michigan Democratic Party and the DNC comes as the Republicans face off in a presidential debate in Dearborn, Michigan.

Under Democratic National Committee rules, only Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina are allowed to hold primaries before February 5.

But Michigan Democrats moved their state's primary date to January in an effort to increase the state's influence in the nominee selection process, arguing Iowa and New Hampshire unfairly dominate the process.

more:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/09/michigan.primary/index.html

If this reversal by the DNC (or whomever) goes through and it affects who our nominee is, am I wrong to assume there would mass protests outside (and inside) the convention hall in Denver this summer? Does the party establishment really want all that negative publicity?

At first glace, this unfair seating of delegates may backfire against Hillary big time.

The more people get wind of this unfair bullshit, the more it will fuel protest votes against the party elite changing the rules in the middle of the game.

If I have my facts wrong, please correct my understanding - I'm too angry to think as clearly as I'd like.

This new action to seat delegates seems very, very fucked up!!!

[HeraldSquare212]

1. Because they supported Dean's efforts to give hispanics(Nevada) and blacks (SC) a voice in choosing

the nominee. That was a first and important innovation to support and encourage participation by two large constituencies of the Democratic Party.

[ArkySue]

53. Odd, but NV and SC primaries were BOTH held

before Florida. MI, not sure, but don't they have a pretty large AA population?

[K Gardner]

2. Your anger is right in line with mine every single freakin time this issue comes up. I see

absolutely red. There is no doubt that there are millions of fair-minded people with whom this will NOT go over well with and who will see it as.. oh yeah.. cheating. The Clintons, as they did in SC and elsewhere, may just seal their own demise if they keep up this bullshit. No one wants a liar or a cheat, in the WH. Been there, done that.

[RiverStone]

12. Once the general public gets wind of this bs...

Don't you think it may result in an backlash vote against Hillary?

I don't see an upside.

And as an Obama fan, if this shit actually factors into our nominee (if our convention is dead-locked) - I could never, ever trust our party establishment again. It would amount to another stolen or fixed election.

Gawd, lets hope it does not go that far.

They must re-do the whole damn thing in MI!

[Cha]

46. I see the clintons thinking they are going

to ooze back in the whitehouse anyway they can..not exactly worrying about what people will think of them.

[thunder rising]

3. It's not going to be reversed. However Dean has said there may be a powow in late MAR/APR to get

the candidates to make a deal.

[RiverStone]

6. It looks like it already HAS BEEN reversed...

per the link in OP:

LANSING — Hillary Rodham Clinton will get the lion's share of Democratic national convention delegates after winning the state's Jan. 15 presidential primary.

The Michigan Democratic Party said Friday that Clinton will get 73 pledged delegates after winning 55 percent of the statewide vote.

Another 55 delegates will be uncommitted since 40 percent of the Democratic voters chose uncommitted. Because Barack Obama and John Edwards had taken their names off the ballot, many of their supporters voted for uncommitted.


The state also has 28 superdelegates, many of whom remain uncommitted, for a total of 156.

Michigan has been stripped of its delegates for moving up its primary, but party leaders expect the delegates to be seated at the national convention.

Has it been reversed or not??? - please clarify.

Thanks:hi:

[sandnsea]

9. They haven't been seated yet

The goal is to get the delegates seated in this bogus election. It hasn't happened yet. "but party leaders 'expect' the delegates to be seated at the national convention". We have to keep fighting this.

[RiverStone]

61. Lets us know when you hear of "party leaders" who indicate...

...they too (like us) will fight this political trickery. :hi:

[durtee librul]

10. She didn't win shit here in this god for saken state....

unless you count uncommitted as a person she ran against.

Do overs and she'd lose. Period.

I agree with the post stating the Clintons are bending the rules to get what they want....and sorry HRC backers...this kind of crap doesn't sit well with a lot of people here in MI who would have loved to have their votes counted for a real person and not uncommitted.

And please, this isn't about Dean so don't even go there.

[Yael]

25. Agree -- this has nothing to do with Dean

This is about the state party ginning up the system.

[ArkySue]

54. Nobody MADE the candidates

take their names off the ballot. They did so voluntarily. Too bad about that, but them's the breaks.

[pampango]

58. All the candidates agreed not to campaign or participate in the primaries

in Michigan and Florida. They VOLUNTARILY removed their names from the ballot in Michigan, because they thought that leaving their names on the ballot would be "participating" in the primary. It boils down to your definition of "participating", I guess. In Florida they tried to remove their names from the ballot, but the deadline for doing so had already passed.

I grant that Hillary could define "participate" to leave her name on the ballot, since she didn't do any campaigning, but to try to claim the delegates from a primary that you agreed not to participate in, seems like a power play.

[RiverStone]

66. ...to claim the delegates from a primary that you agreed not to participate in

Is a power play!

EXACTLY CORRECT :applause:

[HeraldSquare212]

19. It's interesting that the superdelegates aren't buying in to the 'she won' line.

If you can't convince them, I don't see how you're going to convince their peers at the convention.

[Thrill]

4. Hillary is going to steal and cheat to get this thing. I keep telling people

[Yael]

26. Nickel by nickel, vote by vote

am I the only one sick of this 50% +1 strategy of snake oil?

I hate sneaky politicians.

[Lucinda]

5. Kucinich didn't drop out, though he tried. And he campaigned in MI.

No one was required to remove their name from the ballot. They did so for Iowa and NH's sake.

[RiverStone]

8. Ok...then...I stand corrected on DK...but...

Is it right then even if they did for for IA and NH ---should Hillary get the "lions share" of the delegates for a beauty contest?

If things are really close --- this could decide the presidency!!!

Whatta think???

[Lucinda]

13. Ok. You tell the voters there they don't matter. They'll answer in the general.

There is a large chunk of Uncommitted delegates that can vote for Obama. Conyers went out of his way to get people to vote uncommitted for that purpose. They should be seated.

[RiverStone]

17. The uncommitted still are not representative...

Of reality.

How many people did not go to the polls that day because they knew this primary was bogus bullshit?

There is a larger chunk of voters who will get fucked over if this fiasco stands. And you will here about them in protest - this is NOT the will of the people.

Had it been real, Obama would have hit the streets - that would have changed everything. Same for the other candidates...

[Lucinda]

22. Robocallers were calling Dems and saying the primary was cancelled

so I'm sure a lot more would have voted for a variety of reasons. But it is what it is. Both states should be seated.

[RiverStone]

23. If this happens, it 100% guarantee's Hillary's defeat.

I'm telling ya - people won't stand for the rules of the game changing in the middle of the game.

Just wait till John Q. Public gets wind of this...

Remember, we on DU pay attention.

Even as an Obama fan, I can't imagine why Hil voters would want this. It would be political suicide, IMO.

[Lucinda]

47. 1.6 MILLION people voted for Obama or Clinton in Florida alone

I'm betting they want a say in the next POTUS. People like you who advocate we ignore them over party politics are the ones they will be angry at. Not the candidates.

[RiverStone]

48. Not ignore! Add more!

In fact, I'm advocating we be a hell of a lot more inclusive than 1.6 million.

They should re-do both states with a FAIR campaign process. Then ALL votes will count for a meaningful primary and/or caucus. Believe me, that include way more than 1.6 million - because this time - the votes will count. Remember, the DNC said it was NOT going to seat the delegates - ya want them to go back on their pledge?

The primary in MI was a farce. No matter how you shake it, it was not based on any kind of a real primary.

This seating happens, it would be a disaster for democracy and our party.

[Lucinda]

49. Who is going to pay for it? They were all on the ballot in Florida. Obama ran ads

The state gets TV recepetion. They know who the candidates are.

MI may be another case entirely though, since Edwards and Obama were foolish enough to remove their names. I can see a point to a MI do-over.

[Yael]

27. Don't matter? We are saying that they deserve an honest COUNTED contest

Perhaps you missed the posts upthread (and posted ad nauseum the last 2 months) about how people didn't turn out because they were told that their voice wouldn't be heard due to state party decisions? Lay blame where it belongs. Don't come crying after the Super Tuesday Giuliani strategy didn't work and ask for the votes to be retroactively counted.

If that is the strategy, count on CAN YOU TRUST HER??? to headline the GE and I will be one of the loudest.

You don't change the rules mid-game because you aren't winning...

[TwilightGardener]

7. Follow the rules, get fucked over. Edwards might have done well in MI, too.

[ArkySue]

55. no rules

said that candidates take their names off the ballot. Just because Obama and Edwards volunteered to take their names off, don't punish the voters.

[Cameron27]

62. That's right,

the rules pertained to campaigning in the state, not removing names from the ballot.

[still_one]

11. That happens, and Hillary wins the nomination because of those seated delegates

she will NEVER get my vote in the general election

However, if they redo the primary, I won't have a problem

They had better think long and hard before they do this

[RiverStone]

14. I would think even Hillary supporters...

...would be against this???

Why rile up the opposition to a frenzy?

[still_one]

15. I agree. The party could very possibly be destroyed because of this nonesense /nt

[Yael]

28. It is called "scorched earth" or "anything to win"

It is about HRC getting power, not about the people of this country.

They will cheer any sneaky move she makes during this run as long as she WINS.

You know -- because this is nothing more than a game, and "winning" is everything.

[RiverStone]

31. Is anybody paying attention to this outside of DUers?

Dang Yael - it's not even mentioned on the front page that I could see on CNN or MSNBC (for example).

This seems like a REALLY big deal.

But, it's Friday night and maybe lots of folks are not paying attention. Timing is everything and maybe even the timing of the announcement was planned?

Anyway - I'll do my best to keep it in the light.

peace~:)

[Yael]

33. Good weekend to you!

:hi:

:toast:

[still_one]

41. I still believe Howard Dean will will keep his word /nt

[RiverStone]

43. Lets do our best to remind him of that....n/t

[still_one]

44. I have already emailed him /nt

[jefferson_dem]

36. My sentiments exactly.

If those delegates are seated, and they impact the nomination outcome in favor of Hillary...no vote from me in the General. Period.

[pstans]

16. No Immunity for Michigan and Florida for breaking the rules

[RiverStone]

20. Who gets punished with your statement?

I'd say the entire democratic process!

Why disenfranchise the voters even more???

I don't get your rationale?

[Yael]

34. RiverStone - are you saying that you want the delegates seated?

Because I am not following this response.

Wouldn't be the first time that I am clueless and not following the trail of breadcrumbs.

:D

[RiverStone]

40. Hell no!

In fact Yael, I started this thread because they SHOULD NOT be seated.

Sometimes, words get lost in translation.

I may have read post #16 wrong - whereas the poster suggested no immunity for MI - I assumed he/she meant: tough shit, the delegates are seated because the state party made their bed and now have to lay in it (so to speak).

But I could have read that wrong to.

We are on the same side on this one! :pals:

Anyway, have a great weekend yourself!

[pstans]

71. Michigan and Florida for breaking the rules that the DNC set up

There is a process and the calendar was set.

[rox63]

18. If they have a do-over primary/caucus and chose delegates based on new results, I'd be ok with it

But seating delegates from a primary where only one of the major candidates was on the ballot? That would be fucked up.

[1776Forever]

21. Oh yeah - Florida is up too - Hillary wants Bush rules - anything to get the nod!!!

:grr: :nuke: :grr:

[Yael]

24. Michigan does not have this authority -- they just named them in case

WRITE the DNC and tell them to stand their ground.

Another thread from tonight and my email to this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4489179&mesg_id=4489676

:hi:

[hedgetrimmer]

29. Obama, Biden, Richardson, Edwards, and Kucinich are all

DNC whores. See and Hillary just ain't a good donkey. Thats what happened... good donkey's and bad donkey's and Hillary is a bad donkey.

[Yael]

35. WTF? Seriously.

Post when you sober up, k?

[hedgetrimmer]

50. Dude I am totally serious!

And sober to boot, "K". It is not my fault that you do not get the irony of my post, "K".

YAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAELYAEL

[ArkySue]

30. Kucinich didn't drop out of MI

Neither did Dodd. Obama, Edwards, and Biden voluntarily removed their names from the ballot. No one forced them to.

[RiverStone]

32. Did not the DNC pledge to not seat the MI and FLA delegates?

I've already been corrected on DK --- but the end result should not be for the delegates to be seated.

That was not what the people who voted (and did not vote) were told originally. If the DNC has done differently, the vote would have also been very different in MI.

[ArkySue]

52. So you're saying that the DNC

is more important than the million+ voters that turned out anyway to vote? And why was the Obama campaign calling MI voters to urge them to vote "uncommitted?" The calls were coming from SC.

[RiverStone]

56. Live by the rules or re-do the whole dang thing

No, the DNC is not more important, but they did tell the voters the primary was bogus - so many did not even bother to vote. Now, they want to count them under different pretenses? WTF is that?

Why is this so hard to understand?

Easy solution - redo the whole damn thing. But to seat them would be so very wrong.

Re-do or don't seat. It is the only fair solution

[ArkySue]

57. "live by the rules"

OK. The "rules" in California state that voters must mark the Dem box on their ballot to vote in the Presidential primary. The information was readily available in the Voter Info Packet and on the sample ballot.
Some voters didn't follow that rule. So why should they be counted now??

[RiverStone]

60. In this case - the rules set by the DNC/Dean

That everybody knew about ahead of time.

The whole damn is a clusterfuck, but all players went into the game understanding what the ramifications were. If now for what ever reasons of political expediency or pressure the rules are changed and Dean says - forget it - there will be many, many shouts of foul.

Nobody has a clue yet how much resentment this will create in the electorate. Just political junkies (like DUers) are paying attention for now - but wait till more folks get wind of it...

[Yossariant]

37. How dense can people be here?

The candidates pledged not to campaign in Florida or Michigan.

Some of the candidates were so dumb that they took ther names off the Michigan ballot to pander to the early voting states and it blew up in their faces.

If they had taken their names off, on principle, they'd have taken them off in Florida, too.

And now they whine and whine and ...

Quicherbichin.

[Yael]

38. This is your first election, isn't it?

Welcome :hi:

Now that that shit is out of the way -- please reread your post. It wasn't about being "dumb", it was following arty rules (that were GOING to be enforced). F'in-A I feel stronger about supporting the DNC in this fight than any candidate left standing.

Lets play ball!!




WITHIN THE PARTY RULES

[Yossariant]

45. You're wrong. On both counts.

Please provide a link to a discussion of or the actual PARTY RULE that required the candidates to remove their names from the ballots.

I am constantly amazed at how little Obama's supporters know about civics, the electoral process and history.

[Cameron27]

64. There isn't any rule

and I don't know why no one's complaining about Obama keeping his name on the ballot in FL. The same rules apply there.

[RamboLiberal]

39. If this is allowed to happen Hillary might win the battle

But she will so split the party and piss a lot of us off that she'll lose the war and we'll all be weeping as we watch McCain take the oath 1-20-09!

[RiverStone]

42. No, this stands she will be helping herself lose the nomination

When more people get wind of this, there will be a political price to pay.

22 states to go.

Really bad Clinton PR on this.

Rallies the opposition - which is fine with me.

GoBama!

[elixir]

51. Holy s#@%! This is a big mistake. This will hurt HRCs campaign more than help. STOP!

[Herman74]

59. Count Florida (at a 25% - 50%) delegate reduction, but don't count Michigan

No one knows with even the slightest precision the preferences of the Michigan voters. Voters may have preferred to vote for Hillary (rather than nothing="uncommitted"), but this doesn't mean anything. Unless Michigan can hold caucuses, or send out questionnaires or something, Michigan shouldn't count.

If the Michiganites get upset about this, ask them why is it that 96 percent of the other states, including California, New York, Texas, etc., felt no compulsion to break the rules, but Michigan and Florida did. If the Michiganites are still upset but still refuse to hold caucuses, than give Hillary her proportion of the delegates (the rest uncommitted), but cut the state's delegation by at least 50 percent.

As to Florida, divide up the state's delegates proportionally between Clinton, Obama, and Edwards based on votes received, but then reduce the number of delegates by 25% to 50% (I prefer 33%) to reflect the fact that none of the campaigns did any significant campaigning in the state.

[RiverStone]

63. Barring a redo, your idea has merit...

It is still a flawed solution - as they need to either redo the primaries FLA/MI or hold caucuses in June - but at least a partial reduction will tell the rouge states that you (like the rest of the states) have to follow the rules or get penalized.

[Cameron27]

65. Where's your rant about Obama

keeping his name on the ballot in FL, and airing campaign ads across the state? Why did he remove his name from the MI primary, but left it on the ballots in FL?

[RiverStone]

67. I've advocated for a re-do in BOTH states

Up thread and in other threads.

There is no reason the voters should get fucked over because the DNC and state party's could not resolve their squabble.

In the end, one has to ask if these delegates come into play to nominate either Hillary or Obama - is it fair? Will we be electing a president based on a true representation of the will of the people? No - not even close.

That's why I hope folks feel a greater sense of urgency about this - but outside the blogosphere - not many are even paying attention. It will be HUGE if this comes into play down the road - if we are all tied up (in delegate counts) and it's just about summer.

[Cameron27]

68. Well that's fine,

but you asked why Obama and Edwards had removed their names from the MI ballots, but you didn't ask why they didn't remove them from the ballots in FL.

[Barack_America]

70. He could in Michigan, he couldn't in Florida.

Same with Edwards.

It's as simple as that. Both tried to remove their names in both states.

[Barack_America]

69. This is just Michigan posturing itself against the DNC.

Of course they were going to allocate their delegates in an effort to push the DNC to seat them.

I'm just sad to see that, here, my feelings are in opposition to Levin, one of my all-time heroes.

But if Michigan and Florida do succeed in getting their delegates seated, according to the results of their "elections", I might just have to go to Denver for a protest. Why not? I like CO, lol.