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Noted DINOs Ted Kennedy and Paul Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act andc No Child Left Behind!

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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:21 PM
Original message
Noted DINOs Ted Kennedy and Paul Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act andc No Child Left Behind!
As did every Democrat except one on the Patriot Act and two on the Kennedy written No Child Left Behind. The "captains" of Obama's netroots supporter never have the honesty to tell folks the truth about these bills.
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Just a little flame baiting ... looks like a Repug troll at work
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No. It is what Obama's "supporters" have been pushing on the netroots for a year
Where do you think the Edwards is a phony meme began on the netroots? The fuckers chose five bills out of thousands and made sure they were all before 2005. They didn't want a straight comparison between Obama and Hillary's voting records, which would show things like Obama voting for corporations on tort reform and Dick Cheney's energy bill when Hillary voted against both. Oh. Both voted for the Patriot Act's renewal.
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. damn. #4
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Is that your reply to every post you don't like?
...you seem to use it often...
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ted Kennedy and Paul Wellstone are well known LIBERALS ....
Calling them 'DINO's apparently serves your political purpose at the moment, but it certainly doesn't represent a 'truth' ....
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I sense a bit of sarcasm there.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. Neither Are Running. What Is Your Point? nt
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. You can't trust even "progressives" like Kennedy and Wellstone
The only one you can trust is the One True Candidate. St. Obama. He will heal us all. HE has never made a mistake unlike mere mortals like Kennedy.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I'm Not Sure What The Many Wrong Votes Has To Do
with Obama. Many other mere mortals and liberals in Congress did not vote for them.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. 1 voted against the Patriot Act in the Senate, 2 Dems against No Child
49 and 47 voted in favor of each respectively. What were the vote totals in the House? Kucinich has a habit of taking the most left-wing position on an issue and then chiding others for not being truth to the faith. I bet there weren't more than two dozen Democrats in the House who voted against it.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Wouldn't Matter If 100% Voted For Them
They were wrong. Hillary was wrong and still won't admit it which is why she lost my vote. I feel personally betrayed by her.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Maybe they were right at the time. Why did 99% of the senate and 48 of 49 Dems vote for it?
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Maybe They Sold Out Because It Was The Politically
savvy thing to do at the time. I knew it was wrong then and unless they were truly stupid they did too. I don't believe Hillary is stupid leaving me too believe she sold us down the river so that her dream of being President could come true. Even if it works, it is not moral.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. 98 senators sold out?
I remember a big thing happening a month before the bill was presented that trigged it. Did the dissenters just complain or did they offer an alternative? If they spent months wrangling over library card provisions and another terrorist attack occurred they would have to sleep each night with the feeling that perhaps if they passed a bill earlier it could have been prevented. That human factor surely had to be on their minds too.
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. WTF? Wrangling Over Library Cards??
I was out protesting with signs, posting the truth and writing to the idiots to let them know it was wrong. Alternatives?? To what? Iraq had no weapons it was a known lie. Saddam's Son in Law's transcripts were one source of truth. Scott Ritter another. Don't blame your laziness on me.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. What does Iraq have to do with the 2001 Patriot Act?
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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. It Has To Do With The Extensions And Other Votes
And I Was against the Afghanistan War and Patriot Act 1 too. Hillary knew it was lies and you are accepting her voting for the lies.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. What was the alternative to the Patriot Act?
Edited on Fri Feb-08-08 10:52 PM by jackson_dem
The Patriot Act was renewed with only slight modifications. On balance, and without any alternative and without time to spend months debating the fine print when the country was terrified of another wave of terrorist attacks, it isn't surprising that 98 of 99 senators voted for it (did constitutional professor Barack Obama speak out against it? I bet the answer is no because he too probably supported it at the time).

90% of the public supported the Afghanistan war. Did any senator vote against it? Hillary did the right thing on Afghanistan. Obama would have done the same.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Every Senator except Russ Feingold voted for the Patriot Act, but...
...there were people in the House who voted against it, such as Dennis Kucinich.

Anyone who wants to help Kucinich get re-elected to Congress against a primary challenge can donate:
http://kucinich.us/
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. What was the House vote? Why did it pass 98-1 in the Senate?
Maybe there was a reason for it? Nah, it couldn't be! 49 of 50 Democrats sold out!!! :mad: If only HE was in the Senate then to save us from those DINOs!
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malta blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wellstone a DINO?
You should watch out next time lightening strikes. :mad:
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. If he ran against St. Obama he would be called a DINO by Obama's internet cronies
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malta blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm not so sure about that...
I was priviledged to have had a personal relationship with Paul. He would probably have embraced the energy of Sen. Obama's campaign.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Nothing can stand in the way of HIM
"Barack Obama is here to lead us to a better life" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4488812&mesg_id=4488812

The point of the thread is to show the pathetic deceitful of some Obamites. They NEVER tell people the truth about these votes when they use them to attack Hillary and Edwards. Great Democrats and progressives voted for them. Maybe there was a reason why? :sarcasm:
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malta blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. I see the point you are trying to make, however,
I think the intention of your OP lends itself more towards the defense of Kennedy and, in particular, Wellstone, rather than the above.

I think I now know why I don't venture in here very often these days.

~peace...
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Okay, why are you calling Ted Kennedy a "Democrat-In-Name-Only?"
Edited on Fri Feb-08-08 09:34 PM by Sarah Ibarruri
You're basing it on that and nothing else? Also, do you know the reason why he voted for those? I mean, I don't, but perhaps there's a legitimate reason. I'd like to know. Lastly, are those the only two things that matter when determining if a politician is good or not? Or are there other factors one should look at? I mean, politicians vote for LOTS of things. Let's look at all of them. Even you and I would differ on topics and might vote differently from one another on sevveral things if we were in Congress.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. It is the implication and assertion of a few Obama supporters that Hillary votes on NCLB and PA
make her a DINO. The same medicine must then apply to the late Paul Wellstone and Senator Kennedy.


It's called sarcasm.

.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. No TRUE Democrat would have voted for the Patriot Act and No Child!
Kennedy also voted for normal trade with China in a 83-15 vote. :mad:

Also, do you know the reason why he voted for those? I mean, I don't, but perhaps there's a legitimate reason. I'd like to know. Lastly, are those the only two things that matter when determining if a politician is good or not? Or are there other factors one should look at? I mean, politicians vote for LOTS of things. Let's look at all of them. Even you and I would differ on topics and might vote differently from one another on sevveral things if we were in Congress.

Bingo!!!!! Too bad Obamites who attack Hillary and Edwards for doing what most Democrats, including great progressives, did can't see what you recognize.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I don't know why, but I am going to post for you something Feingold said about the Patriot Act....
Feingold, who was the SOLE vote in the Senate against the Patriot Act, explains plenty in this address:
http://www.archipelago.org/vol6-2/feingold.htm

For some reason you seem hell-bent that the people who voted for it are somehow fascists, that they didn't give a shit about the bill but rather closed their eyes and voted yes, that the administration was not pushing everyone and calling them traitors if they hesitated, that people throughout this country were not terrified of further 9/11s WE WERE. I was horrified!

Read either what Feingold said in the link, or at least this excerpt from it. Hopefully it will offer you a perspective you are obviously not able to see right now, that they did the BEST THEY COULD AT THE TIME:

_________________________________________

................Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed at least to some extent, and while this bill has been on a fast track, there has been time to make some changes and reach agreement on a bill that is less objectionable than the bill that the Administration originally proposed.

As I will discuss in a moment, I concluded that the Senate bill still does not strike the right balance between empowering law enforcement and protecting civil liberties. But that does not mean that I oppose everything in the bill. Indeed many of its provisions are entirely reasonable, and I hope they will help law enforcement more effectively counter the threat of terrorism.

For example, it is entirely appropriate that with a warrant the FBI be able to seize voice mail messages as well as tap a phone. It is also reasonable, even necessary, to update the federal criminal offense relating to possession and use of biological weapons. It made sense to make sure that phone conversations carried over cables would not have more protection from surveillance than conversations carried over phone lines. And it made sense to stiffen penalties and lengthen or eliminate statutes of limitation for certain terrorist crimes.

There are other non-controversial provisions in the bill which I support – those to assist the victims of crime, to streamline the application process for public safety officers benefits and increase those benefits, to provide more funds to strengthen immigration controls at our Northern borders, expedite the hiring of translators at the FBI, and many others.

In the end, however, my focus on this bill, as Chair of the Constitution Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee in the Senate, was on those provisions that implicate our constitutional freedoms. And it was in reviewing those provisions that I came to feel that the Administration’s demand for haste was inappropriate; indeed, it was dangerous. Our process in the Senate, as truncated as it was, did lead to the elimination or significant rewriting of a number of audacious proposals that I and many other members found objectionable.

For example, the original Administration proposal that was dropped contained a provision that would have allowed the use in U.S. criminal proceedings against U.S. citizens of information obtained by foreign law enforcement agencies in wiretaps that would be illegal in this country. In other words, evidence obtained in an unconstitutional search overseas was to be allowed in a U.S. court.

Another provision would have broadened the criminal forfeiture laws to permit – prior to conviction – the freezing of assets entirely unrelated to an alleged crime. The Justice Department has wanted this authority for years, and Congress has never been willing to give it. For one thing, it touches on the right to counsel, since assets that are frozen cannot be used to pay a lawyer. The courts have almost uniformly rejected efforts to restrain assets before conviction unless they are assets gained in the alleged criminal enterprise. This proposal, in my view, was simply an effort on the part of the Department to take advantage of the emergency situation and get something that they’ve wanted to get for a long time.

The foreign wiretap and criminal forfeiture provisions were dropped from the bill that we considered in the Senate. Other provisions were rewritten based on objections that I and others raised about them. For example, the original bill contained sweeping permission for the Attorney General to get copies of educational records without a court order. The final bill in the Senate requires a court order and the certification by the Attorney General that he has reason to believe that the records contain information that is relevant to an investigation of terrorism.

Another provision increased penalties for conspiracy to the level of the penalties for the underlying crime. I was concerned that this might bring the federal death penalty into play for conspiracy. The provision was modified to make life in prison the maximum penalty for conspiracy.

And the definition of “federal terrorism offense,” originally a laundry list of federal crimes that in some instances might, but in most instances would not, relate to terrorism was significantly narrowed.

So the bill the Senate passed last night was certainly improved from the bill that the Administration sent to us on September 19, and wanted us to pass on September 21. But again, in my judgement, it did not strike the right balance between empowering law enforcement and protecting constitutional freedoms. Let me take a moment to discuss some of the shortcomings of the bill that we passed in the Senate very late Thursday night, by a vote of 96-1. And I guess you know by now who the “one” was................

___________________________________________________________________

Would you have been a Feingold? I am NOT so sure!
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. The thread is a satire about some Obamites attacking Hillary and Edwards over this
Without ever telling folks the truth about these bills. There were reasons to vote for them at the time and great Democrats, most Democrats, and great progressives voted with Hillary and Edwards on them. Have you EVER heard one of Obama's internet "captains" who attack Edwards as a fraud because these two and three other bills mention the Patriot Act was passed 98-1 and 47 of 49 Democrats voted for Child? Ever?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. NCLB, unfortunately, was deceptively seductive
to democrats who would automatically support efforts to close the achievement gap.

The fact is that, no matter how well-meaning, they didn't pay close enough attention to the agenda behind it, or to the flawed philosophies it's built on. Thankfully, some Democrats have realized this, after seeing it in action. Perhaps Wellstone would have. Kennedy and for that matter, George Miller, won't, of course, because they helped write and promote this weapon of mass public ed destruction.

Too many Democrats pander to the public displeasure with vague rhetoric about "fixing" it. More, unhappily, think it's only problem is that it isn't fully funded.

For those Democrats, I'd say, FUNDING BAD POLICY AND BAD LEGISLATION DOESN'T MAKE IT BETTER. I'd say, YOU DON'T "FIX" CANCER. YOU ERADICATE IT.

You won't find many Democrats who did not vote for NCLB the first time around. The best you can do is hope to find some who've seen the light and will help fight the effort to renew it.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. PRECISELY!!! So-so policy passed without proper funding
or, as we say in the government business, an UNFUNDED MANDATE.

The premise behind the legislation wasn't all bad. Unfortunately, Congress imposed standards on the schools but didn't give them any extra funding to achieve it.

The goals behind NCLB were not a bad thing, but the lack of $$$ to achieve those goals was a bad thing.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. They aren't running for President.
Please try to stay on topic.

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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The excuses them from being DINOs?
Edited on Fri Feb-08-08 09:47 PM by jackson_dem
Or maybe there were valid reasons for voting for those bills that Hillary and Edwards recognized just like Kennedy and Wellstone? Anyone who thinks Obama would have voted against these bills is insane. Obama has never stuck his neck out on a 47-2 48-1 type of issue. Being the only one voting "present" doesn't qualify.

How can I get off topic in my own topic? :crazy:
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. How can I get off topic in my own topic?
Talent. Raw talent. :-)
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johnnydrama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
31. well
i've never lived in MA or MN, so there's no way I can show my displeasure at their vote.

Since i live in the USA, I can voice my displeasure for her vote, and I did.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-08-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. You're funny. n/t
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