Health - Hillary has resorted to flat out lies.

[denem]

I read an article, saw the statement that Obama's health plan would leave 50 million without health insurance; thought, hang on, the current estimate is that 47 million is uninsured. She's been misreported. I remember an estimate 15 million not covered with Obama's plan. The question hung there. Obama includes a partial mandate - coverage for children. Then I noticed she said including "750,000 right here in the state of Washington". Run that through a calculator on a per capita basis and you get around 35 million uninsured in the US under Obama. Adjust that for income and poverty and you could get to around 50 I suppose.

So Hillary was not misreported. She said 50 million will be uninsured Uninsured under Obama's health proposals. More people uninsured than at present. And that is a flat out lie which does nobody any good, least of all her campaign.

Clinton blasts Obama over health care plan ...

Without mentioning Obama by name in her speech, Clinton told her Tacoma audience, "My opponent's plan would leave out at least 50 million people, 750,000 right here in the state of Washington." Her plan, she said, "bans insurance companies from discriminating against people with preexisting conditions."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/350642_clinton09.html

Edited for math.

[denem]

1. ...

[Egnever]

2. pulling out all the stops

[denem]

3. But it's stupid.

If it hit me in the face, how long before she's called on it?

[karynnj]

27. Her hope is that she won't be called until she's the nominee

I think the Obama campaign needs to put a list of these "fact challenged" comments together - along with very clear corrections and do what Senator Kerry did for them on the "Obama is a Muslim" emails - send it as an email that they ask everyone to send to everyone they know. He has his own list and could obviously get Kerry and Kennedy and moveon to send things. They need to propagate the truth - as some have propagated the lies. (I never thought I would quote Romney, but Obama really does get to define what his own position is - not HRC.

If 2004 proved anything, the media can not be counted on to fact check. Only Knight Ridder did a serious summary of Kerry's position (there was only one) on whether to go to war and how to get out. Most of the rest of the media actually gave more weight to what the RNC said was Kerry's position going forward than to what Kerry said each and every day.

They need to realize that it is not just a fluke that HRC is distorting this. I may be wrong - but the way that reads, it implies but doesn't say, that people with pre-existing conditions could be excluded under Barack Obama.

[ArkySue]

4. No, she said "15"

The reporter didn't hear correctly. 15 million is the approx. number of people that won't be covered.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. The Obama crew are desperate. They'll do anything now to win.

Now they're pumping the phony outrage over typographical errors, making money from her book, and NOT filing her 2007 taxes at their command.

What will they want next? Results of her Pap smear? Demands that she renounce all worldly goods? Sackcloth and ashes?

--p!

[denem]

8. OK explain how a state of 6.4 million will have 750,000 unisured

About 12% under Obama's proposals.

[denem]

6. No she said 50

With a state of 6.4 million people she said 750,000 would be uninsured - 11.72%
Apply that to the US and its 35 million plus uninsured. She said 50.

[ArkySue]

11. False logic

Each state would have a different percentage not covered. Coverage would depend on various state's residents situation. You can't just ASSuMe that each state would have the same amount of uninsured.

[denem]

20. OK - Hows this for logic

In 2004 the estimated uninsured in Washington State was 606,000 9.8% of the population.
http://www.ofm.wa.gov/researchbriefs/brief031.pdf

Hillary is quoted as saying that under Obama's health plan 750.000 - 11.7% will be uninsured.
It's probably around that figure now - Just like the total number of uninsured in proabably 50 million. It's a lie with plausible deniability. She just happed to quote the figures of currently uninsured.

[Perry Logan]

13. Here's the debunk. All anti-Clinton threads are bullshit.

[denem]

24. Evidence?

If reported correctly, this is the first unambiguous lie in her campaign.

[karynnj]

30. First lie from her,

Bill Clinton lied on his Iraq position in 2004 - saying he said his was close to Bush's. In fact, Bill Clinton took a comment, where Obama - like Kerry, Dean, Clark ... - all said that everyone has the goal of leaving a stable Iraq, but disagree on how to do it. Obama spoke of the need for regional diplomacy and went so far as to say that a new team might be required to do that diplomacy.

[UALRBSofL]

32. That's absolutely correct, it is 15 million, that said

The OP as typical of a Obama supporter does not do there homework and as such appears uninformed and not a credible source.

[avrdream]

7. She has NEVER said 50 million. Try 15 million.

And quit posting distorting threads. You aren't much better.

[denem]

9. No prize - if 15million will be uninsured its only 320,000 in Washington

She lied.

[ArkySue]

10. Is that "new math?"

I don't get it. :shrug:

[denem]

21. To repeat a earlier reply

In 2004 the estimated uninsured in Washington State was 606,000 9.8% of the population.
http://www.ofm.wa.gov/researchbriefs/brief031.pdf

Hillary is quoted as saying that under Obama's health plan 750.000 - 11.7% will be uninsured.
It's probably around that figure now - Just like the total number of uninsured in proabably 50 million. It's a lie with plausible deniability. She just happed to quote the figures of currently uninsured.

[awaysidetraveler]

12. HRC's been lying for some time about health care. And her mandates will leave millions uninsured

It's like automobile insurance, which I can't afford.

Will I drive? Sometimes I must. Why?

I can't afford the insurance, and I need the jobs I can drive to.

So will we be left uninsured under her "mandatory" plan?

It depends on how much it costs.

"Hillarycare" was a 1300 page document that was so complicated, no one could understand it.
It was written in closed-door sessions, and it failed to solve any health care problems.

Why should I think she has solutions now? Her health care plan looks good on paper, but it leaves the magic number out:
how much I would pay for it.

Medicaid and Medicare is the math you want to check--there's almost as much pork in those bills
as there is in our defense budget.

[denem]

16. HillaryCare is the GOP Swiftboat leaving the dock.

I am surprised that she lied so freely on what is supposed to be her core issue. It's all I really need to know about Hillary.

[MH1]

25. Also isn't it true that the so-called "15 million" (which is someone's estimate anyway)

would only be those who CHOOSE to be uninsured, but EVERYONE would have access to Obama's health plan? And there would be subsidies for those on low incomes?

I think that's an important point, that the estimate is that 15 million would opt out of the plan, NOT that Obama's plan "would leave them without coverage."

[karynnj]

33. She's also lied about her role in S-CHIP

where she nows states that she and Kennedy were the driving forces. The truth was that it started as a bill written by Kerry and Kennedy using a MA program, just passed over Weld's veto. Kennedy enlisted Hatch - the original proposal was water down - to not be an entitlement and to give the states the say in how to implement it. HRC's role was after Kennedy had the Senate votes to lobby Bill Clinton to put it in the budget.

Interesting that Bill Clinton thought so little of the completely opposite roles Kerry and Weld played here, that he didn't mention it in his book when he discussed who he wanted to win that race - though that would have given Kerry credit on issue people cared about in a book released the month before his convention.

[Hart2008]

14. A Clinton lies...This is news? n/t

[denem]

15. It is to me

and for that reason it's time for me to let go of this identity. get a new one, and gobama.

[Hart2008]

17. David Geffen. “Everybody in politics lies, but they do it with such ease, it’s troubling.”

It's an important point because Geffen is obviously referring to both Clintons. After all, former First Lady Hillary Clinton enabled President Bill Clinton’s lies time and time again, and there’s more where that came from.

This whole Geffen episode, with its huge media echo chamber, reminds folks what it was like when the Clintons were in power in the White House. It also suggests what may be in store if the Clintons return to the White House. Surely, this is a troubling point for voters.

Geffen’s shot across the bow pries the lid off the rusty old can of Clinton lies. It reminds people what may happen all over again if they return to the White House. In other words, Geffen’s point has been unstated so far in the campaign, but now it is very clearly out of the can. It’s in the middle of the kitchen table.

http://kudlowsmoneypolitics.blogspot.com/2007/02/geffens-shot-across-bow.html

More examples of Clinton lies there, but DU rules prohibit longer quotes.

:hangover:

[MH1]

26. You'd think people would have had enough of lies after 8 years of George W Bush

It astounds me that so many people are so willing to blow off and ignore the history of dishonesty of the Clintons.

[Hart2008]

36. Sadly, many people don't expect honesty from politicians.

As Hart said 20 years ago, we get the kind of government that we deserve.

[Sensitivity]

18. Happened to listen to speach. Heard 50m. Sounded like a wild streach.

May have missspoken, but she does not seek to care.
There is probably some technical basis for her numbers which
have litle bearing on the real world.

[denem]

19. Did you hear her say 750,000 uninsured with Obama's Plan?

[denem]

22. I ask because the NY Times is quoting her

at 250,000 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/us/politics/09campaign.html?ref=politics
Do you know where there is any audio?

[cooolandrew]

23. I back Barack as I feel he is truthful. The very important factor is the truth is love.

[Nimrod2005]

28. Yes, these people lie with ease!

[Vinca]

29. Neither candidate should pimp their plan -

OMG, I said the "P" word - since neither is universal, single payer, health care. Both are promoting insurance schemes. The only difference is Hillary wants to fine me if I don't go broke supporting big insurance.

[MH1]

31. It's the other aspects of the plans that hold (some, small) promise

and in those aspects, from what I see, their plans are similar. But Obama has a better demonstrated understanding of tech issues and I trust him more to preside over cost reduction measures that leverage new technology. I fear that Clinton will be too busy protecting corporate interests to do what is necessary on the tech front to really lower costs.

I was thinking last night, that the reason they aren't offering single payer plans is because there are A LOT of things that can be done to reduce costs and improve efficiencies, and that legislators who are shy of supporting single payer will always trot out these other problems and say "fix these and everything will be fine." Well since we all agree that some of those things are problems, let's go ahead and fix the things we agree on. THEN when it doesn't resolve the real issue, the opponents of single payer will no longer be able to use those other issues as a fig leaf, and we can have a real discussion about whether health care should be handled as a money-making enterprise or a social good.

In other words "tinkering around the edges" may be a necessary first step.

I realize that's not a very persuasive argument to supporters of single payer - and I'm not saying it's a strong argument - but I think it's a rationale and benefit of the Obama/Clinton approach that is too little recognized.

[Kahuna]

34. Typical. nt

[bornskeptic]

35. CBS News Blogger says she said 15M and 250,000.

"I am the only candidate - in either party - who has a plan to insure every single man, woman and child in America, no one left out. My opponent's plan would leave out at least 15 million people. Leave them uninsured, including 250,000 right here in Washington," said Clinton as the crowd booed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/02/08/politics/fromtheroad/entry3809609.shtml

New York Times says she said 250,000.

Speaking at a rally attended by 6,000 people, Mrs. Clinton stood onstage with Senator Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington, and took Mr. Obama to task over his health care plan, which she said would leave millions uninsured, including “more than 250,000 right here in Washington.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/us/politics/09campaign.html?ref=politics

She's been saying 15 million would be left out for months. It would be stupid for her to say 50 million now. Isn't it much more plausible that the PI screwed up?