Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Mike Gravel supporter here asking for thoughts, advice, and so on.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:43 AM
Original message
Mike Gravel supporter here asking for thoughts, advice, and so on.
I recently remembered I had a DU account from a while ago and decided to come here and see people's thoughts on Mike Gravel and the people who support him. My apologies if this has been done to death, but I saw no threads about it.

First, an introduction to my perspective, so we can better understand each other. I started really becoming politically aware at the age of 16, when we were some months away from the Kerry-Bush election. One of the main issues that made me decide I was definitely not a supporter of the Republican party was same-sex marriage. My political awakening roughly coincided with my finally coming to terms with being gay. From this point, I supported same-sex marriage and thought of any viewpoint that fell short of that as conservative. I despised the rhetoric against same-sex marriage and felt personally attacked by conservatives. I had the feeling that the Democratic party was "there for me", and therefore I decided (though perhaps naïvely, I sometimes feel) that Kerry was clearly more worthy of my support. Of course, I felt very frustrated when Bush won.

Since then, I've been becoming more and more familiar with the grand political landscape of the United States and the world. Part of this process was the realization that disturbingly many Democrats, especially the ones in power, are hardly sympathetic to the needs of non-straight people. This, combined with the lackluster performance of the new Democratic majority in Congress, is turning my intellectual acknowledgment that the Democratic party is simply a lesser evil into more of a feeling. To me, the Democratic party as a whole no longer really feels like it's "there for me". And almost four years later, I feel that no matter how this new presidential election plays out, I will be disappointed.

Please understand that I do care about more than just same-sex marriage. The violence in Iraq, the US's refusal to act on global warming, the sorry state of our economy, our neglect of the education system, and quite a few other things all do worry me. But also understand that these issues don't hold personal sway for me in the way same-sex marriage does. I worry about the other issues on an intellectual level, but same-sex marriage directly and obviously affects me. My perspective revolves around this issue for this reason.

Now that you understand my perspective, hopefully you can understand why I generally dislike both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It may be that my perspective is too restricted and I'm being unfair to them. It may also be that I'm simply more liberal than most "electable" Democrats and will always be disappointed with what I get. Either way, I get an irking feeling that both Clinton and Obama are too conservative for me. As early as summer, I threw my support behind Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich when I learned that they were both for same-sex marriage, not some cop-out like civil unions. Gravel has even said that love between two men or two women is a beautiful thing, and I'm sure Kucinich agrees. I deeply respect them for this. I feel that they are there for me. I feel that they are true liberals, or at least much more so than Clinton or Obama. I hope you understand why this coming election makes me very frustrated.

Anyway, enough of the windbaggery. What I hope to get out of this thread is a discussion that covers the following topics: first, Mike Gravel himself (not so much Kucinich since he dropped out); second, whether or not my support for Gravel is misguided; and third, which front-runner I should root for as my "satisfactory" second choice (or perhaps third, since Edwards was my second choice) while I defiantly cast my vote for Gravel in the primary election. I wish my thesis were more specific, but hopefully that will attract a bigger audience. Supporters of Clinton and Obama: Woo me. I want more than just appeals to my sexuality, but I can't say any such appeals won't hold quite a bit of persuasive power.

Thanks for your time. I'll watch this thread. Let's try not to break down into a flame war. Peace. :hippie:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think you are putting me on
But best of luck to you. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you. But how am I putting you on? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Syrinx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. my apologies if you were sincere
Mike Gravel has never been a credible candidate. He makes Kucinich seem like a sure thing.

Your post, combined with your low post count, I admit, makes me suspicious.

If you are really sincere, I apologize. You just set my red flags to blazing.

You sounded to me like a freeper trying to cause mishcief. Sorry if I was wrong. But death to you if I was right. :)

Best wishes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh, now I understand.
Sorry to set off your alarms. :( What was it that made you think I was a Freeper in disguise though, besides my low post count? I want to know so I can avoid misunderstandings like this in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. who is mike gravel? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. You really have never heard of him?
Search for him on YouTube and Google to see what kind of person he is. If you can, find footage of him talking in the Democrats' LOGO debate organized by the Human Rights Campaign back in August. He leaves a better taste in my mouth than the front-runners do. I'm just very disappointed that he has no chance now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. sorry--i was joking. i know who he is. i heard him on malloy's show
a few months ago--he sounded like he was out of his fucking mind.

it was a lasting negative impression for me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Sometimes I'm slow.
I remember watching the YouTube debate among the eight people running. It was how I was first introduced to Mike Gravel. They didn't let him talk much, but when he did talk, he talked very... I guess the word is "abrasively". Or so it appeared to me. I thought, "Wow, that guy's pretty mean". That first impression morphed into a feeling that he was strong, honest, and extremely passionate about the issues he talked about. I started to love it when he called out fellow Democratic candidates for various things he thought was wrong. It felt like he was expressing my frustrations for me. Very therapeutic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
7. Nice post. Ignore the insults and the mean posters.
This forum is downright insane right now, everyone is attacking everyone.

That said, I also liked Gravel. John Edwards was my candidate, though, so when he dropped I carefully considered who I should support. I'm straight, but GLBT issues are very important to me. Obama has made a lot of questionable comments about gays, even suggested they could be "cured". Not to mention, the Donnie McClurkin thing. Clinton has always been very supportive of the GLBT community, so that went a long way with me in deciding who to support - Hillary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thanks. :)
I've observed hostile conversation in other threads, and it kinda disturbs me. Oh well.

What are specific examples of how Hillary has supported GLBT people? If I was wrong about her, I'd like to know. I'm also interested in knowing where and when Obama made the comments you mention, if you're able to give the information.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. Okay, I'll bite
Clearly you are not a person who is turned off by lengthy posts, so here goes:

I am thirty years old, and politically left of left. How in god's name could I possibly have ended up with an Obama icon next to my name?

I believe in practical idealism, not ideological purity. Now, please understand - I am about to criticize what I am calling "ideological purity" but I'm not attacking you. As if I know enough about you to point fingers! I'm speaking generally.

The problem with ideological purity is that it frequently gets in the way of actual change. For me, immediately cutting the defense budget by 50%, closing our overseas bases, using that money to build the best public education system in the world would be something I desire. But imagine if someone who promised to do that somehow actually got elected in 2008? What do you think would happen? Do you think it would be accomplished? No, not even a Democratic Congress would back that, massive entrenched business and establishment interests would block any attempt, and the complexities of doing what I am suggesting even if it could somehow become policy are so staggering that it would take years, maybe even decades.

So the person elected to make these great changes that sound so good to my heart would sit in the Oval Office and be a four year lame duck. At the end of his term he would likely lose the election, having both parties equally committed to his demise, and upon his defeat the GOP would trumpet the "utter failure of liberalism (or progressivism)" and usher in another decade or so of conservative dominance in government.

The kind of massive sweeping change we ultimately need doesn't happen overnight. And any hope for change will require a leader with a keen understanding of reality as it is right now - a clear understanding of how to work the system and the players with in it, and an ability to develop a plan for small, slow incremental steps toward larger change. The reason I did not support either Mike Gravel or Dennis Kucinich as my first choice was because, in my humble opinion, neither one of them demonstrated these capacities. Neither one of them showed me that they had the kind of practical idealism necessary to start the process towards greater change. Both of them have wonderful idealistic positions that my heart agrees with. Those are my ultimate goals too! But what we need in a president is someone practical enough to work within the reality that we have, with the system we have, and gradually - brick by brick - lay the foundation for a more progressive tomorrow.

My first choice of candidates was therefore John Edwards. In my opinion, I believed that of all the candidates John Edwards represented exactly the kind of practical idealism I am talking about. For example, Edwards endured some criticism from purists for not proposing an immediate single-payer health system. However, what he proposed was a graduated process that would lead to a transition into a sing-payer health system. He proposed allowing the public to choose between a government run system and private insurance, while at the same time passing legislation that would regulate the private health care industry and require it to provide comparable and adequate coverage - require them to provide dental, vision and mental wellness coverage, limit their ability to deny coverage over the recommendation of a patients doctor, and so on. He argued that as people were provided this choice, if the people chose the government run system then it would evolve into the ideal of a single-payer system.

To me that is a PERFECT example of practical idealism. That is the only kind of plan that could possibly get passed by congress and implemented. It does not demand an immediate change so large that it has no political support. It very strategically and incrementally paves the way toward a long term goal. That's the kind of leadership we need. Practical idealism.

So.... Edwards dropped out of the race. How did I end up an Obama supporter? This is what I wrote the day after Edwards announced he was suspending his campaign:

t will be a different kind of campaign, with different kinds of issues. Obama's focus is different, its not the same kind of populism that Edwards managed to briefly inject into politics. It's not as "liberal" in some respects, its not as strongly married to labor and other things.

But it IS a lot of things as well. Obama is a democrat, that much is clear. And as a true democrat, even if he is more moderate on some issues, he represents a clear alternative to Republican rule. He is an outsider, young and idealistic when it comes to change in Washington - he is these things right at a time when I feel the country needs it the most. He speaks of message of unity. That has led some to criticize him, fearing that he means caving into corrupt republican politicians like so many democratic washington insiders have done. I'm not sure how you can get that from his message. When he speaks of unity, he speaks in truly inspiring ways about how the time has come to unite the people.

Because when you strip away all the political spin, and the partisan entrenchment, the people of the United States actually SHARE many core beliefs and expectations for their government. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that we have a health care crisis. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that this war was either ill-advised or ill-executed or both, and that it is hurting us economically, hurting us diplomatically and that its time we brought it to a close. A majority of ordinary people on both sides of the isle believe that massive out of control spending and deficits combined with legal exemptions allowing multi-billion dollar corporations to pay less in taxes than a middle-class family is a failure of our system - regardless of what they think about higher or lower taxes in general or about the spending priorities of washington. A majority of ordinary people across both sides of the isle feel that the protection of constitutional rights for American Citizens matter, and that accountability in government is tragically missing.

The disconnect is between the polarizing propaganda of beltway politicians and the establishment media consistently bombarding the airwaves speaking for the American people and telling them what they believe. While reseach consistently indicates that when partisan rhetoric is stripped away, the American people are overwhelmingly in favor of a richer, progressive more community oriented America. It is time for a leader who will unite ordinary people across political divides around these common goals. That message of unity is not some secret scheme. It is the vision for a better tomorrow.

John Edwards shared that vision in common with Barak Obama. And while John Edward's emphasis was (I feel courageously) on taking on the power of corporate rule, I believe Obama's message, even if carrying a different issue focus, carries on that same spirit of unity and optimism that inspired me to become involved in the Edward's campaign. I don't now support Barak Obama crestfallen as if he were some unpalettable last option. Rather, I support him with great optimism, with a willingness to take a risk on a brilliant man who in many ways has not yet been entrenched and molded into any one category of politician. That freshness, that brilliance, and that optimism is something I'm willing to hope in. And vote for.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Athelwulf Donating Member (342 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. This post is very helpful and a little encouraging...
... and I appreciate the input. Length wasn't a problem at all.

I can see the reason to be gradual and pragmatic. It's just sometimes frustrating to see people over and over who seem to just not get it. But politics is a cruel game, and a lot of the time you have to be very sly and calculating to win.

I don't know what else to say except, thanks for the response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. A few thoughts
Gravel is definitely an interesting candidate. I definitely liked when he said in a debate that our soldiers died in vain in Vietnam, pointing out how Vietnam has evolved as a nation even though we lost the war. My main issue with him is his advocacy of a sales tax instead of an income tax. Even a progressive sales tax (one that did not tax necessities) is regressive in that it makes it more difficult for poor people to buy even small luxuries. It also would lead to a mighty black market and bartering, which would force the tax to climb so the government get get money or force the government to cut back services. And if the sales tax was, say, 27%, it would be easy to convince the electorate to do that. Although it would get rid of the hated IRS, there would still have to be something similar to make sure the tax was being collected and paid.

I support Obama, but only because I think he's run an excellent campaign and can win, and frankly any Democratic President will be better than McCain, especially from a gay point of view. From that point of view, we should be concerned about the Supreme Court. In terms of gay rights, I do think Clinton would be a little better because much of her base includes feminists, who are pro gay, while Obama has been reaching out not only to Republicans, but to so-called ex-gays who believe that homosexuality can be "cured" and got weird in a debate when Biden brought up the fact that he and Obama had HIV tests. Listen to Obama at the end of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f-nYgXceA8

Both Obama and Clinton are running as centrists, much like Bill Clinton did, and as a result will be answerable to the coalition they build. Both of their coalitions have strengths and weaknesses, and it's hard to choose one over the other. Again, I'm choosing Obama from a purely pragmatic point of view. He has a superior campaign organization, and even in the worse case, his views are not much worse than Clinton's.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. If you're voting on a single-issue,
and you want to keep the marriage debate alive, then I say vote for Gravel in the primary. It's one thing you can do to send a message - albeit a small thing. There's no saying which candidate you'd make more headway with. I think both of them are personally for same-sex marriage, but have decided to go with the more politically expedient "civil unions". It's still a step forward, but we need single-issue activists to keep our sights on the finish line - full equality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. "love between two men or two women is a beautiful thing"
Did Gravel really say that? That is a beautiful thing to say, because it is true. Who could not support a candidate who says something like that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-09-08 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. I am a Gravel supporter who ended up voting for Hillary (he was not on my ballot)
Edited on Sat Feb-09-08 07:48 AM by robbedvoter
Of course your support is not misguided - he is by far the best candidate in the race - always was in my book.
I have been wavering between him and DK. he earned my support when he was the one candidate to not quote from the bible at the prayer question on CNN: "I think we need less prayer and more love empowering of the people"
The process that led me to vote Hillary is described here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4231971
Also, it's good you were not much on DU. This so called "more progressive then the rest" forum has been mocked Gravel a lot. Any Lee Mercer Jr avatars/references among other things are a direct mockery of Gravel& Kucinich - but there has been more.
Someone posted a test - find your candidate by issues
http://www.wqad.com/Global/link.asp?L=259460
- I was surprised to see for me - Gravel & Hillary had the same grading:


edited to correct link to my choice and add link to the test
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC