Take the delegates away from MI and FL, along

[rateyes]

with the superdelegates...don't seat any of them. Subtract those delegates from the total, and make half plus one of those left the number needed for the nomination.

I hate it for the FL and MI voters, but the State Democratic Party leaders in those states intentionally violated the rules, and now are crying that they have to pay the consequences for their choices.

Let the voters of FL and MI hold their Party Leaders accountable in the next primaries if they want to show their displeasure with the politicians who disenfranchised their votes.

[Pathwalker]

1. I posted this idea too, earlier. But no one will answer

my question about the status of the Super Delegate's votes. I've tried for a week now - and no one will answer. I find that troublesome, since they are the ones most responsible for this mess.

[UALRBSofL]

4. Well, I disagree with this

I live in Florida and I'd like our delegates seated accordingly. I'm standing firmly behind Senator Nelson and the FL Dem Party.

[Mojorabbit]

10. I live in florida too

and I want a do over. I know too many people who did not vote cause they thought it would not count.

[thoughtcrime1984]

15. Of course you are. You favor Hillary, not what is fair. nt

[MS Liberal]

6. No way. The rules are in place and should be followed.

Super Delegates are in; Michigan and Florida are out. The candidates with the most delegates, pledge plus super, wins. The loser is vice-president. This is not difficult. Obama and the media are just looking for headlines.

[rateyes]

19. Good idea you had. nt

[shaniqua6392]

2. I voted in Michigan

and I want my vote to count. It will rest on the head of the national party if they are not seated. The whole system needs an overhaul and we need to quit letting Iowa and New Hampshire set the tone for the whole election. I want a national primary day and it should be on a Saturday with absentee ballots available.

[rateyes]

20. If you wanted your vote to count, you should have pushed

the state party to follow the rules.

[Carolina]

29. then why didn't you

fight with your bone-headed state party officials to abide by the rules so your vote would count. The announcement that your vote would mean nothing because of your state party shenanigans was made ages ago. Where ere you then...

Essentially, you want to cheat!

[cyclezealot]

38. Dont want to cheat.

We want our vote to equal those of the states first to go. If not forget it. No predecessor state should reduce our choices, when they left us with the crums. A national primary finding a way to de-emphasize money or forget it.

[Capn Sunshine]

52. You don't understand something basic. Your vote in the general wouldn't count if you broke the rules...

and the same concept is at play here. No one finds your personal position positive, but the fact is if you didn't register to vote and then voted your vote wouldn't count either.

There are rules, and your party knew the consequences, and betrayed everyone like you in the process.

It's not to late to start an insurgency and throw those rascals out and regain control of your party.

But to many , complaining is easier than the real work.

[Mz Pip]

3. I don't know

enough about party rules but I'll throw this out anyway. Why not just seat all the delegates but relegate their status to "uncommitted"?

Or have new primary elections in those states. So what if it costs a lot of money. This election already expensive.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[MonkeyFunk]

5. Yeah

let the party tell Florida and Michigan to fuck off. Who needs those states in the general election?

[rateyes]

22. MI and FL already told the National Party to fuck off...

now they are paying the consequences for their rule breaking. The blood is on the hands of the state parties. They should have followed the rules.

[MonkeyFunk]

39. So you think it's wise

to give up on them in the GE?

[Capn Sunshine]

53. and how would that happen?

You actually think no one would vote Democratic in the General ?
I'm not drinking that Kool aid, amigo.

[Carolina]

30. those states like your candidate

want to change the rules after the fact.

Both suck!

[MonkeyFunk]

40. And writing them off for the general election

is a wise move to you?

[Carolina]

44. not what I said

but as usual HRC folks spin and distort

[MonkeyFunk]

46. Why are you arguing with my avatar?

I'm talking about the wisdom of pissing off two big states we'll need in November.

Do you want to discuss that, or just make childish slams?

[Capn Sunshine]

54. see above.

Your take is wholly mistaken. Only Hillary's campaign asserts otherwise.
It's just illogical on its face, and specious if it's actually advertised.

[MonkeyFunk]

55. We will need Florida and Michigan in in November

We need to address this problem. A blind adherence to the rules at the expense of the election is brain-dead.

[julialnyc]

31. I like Hillary..... but Michigan and Florida told the DNC to fuck off and everyone knew their standi

If Michigan and Florida want to blame someone they need to look equally at their states. I'm sure Ohio would have liked being earlier in the process (and I personally think as an important state should be), but they didn't break the rules and now will have a very decisive vote. Many states don't think it's fair where they fall in the schedule, but not everyone can go first (unless we change the system).

You may not like the rules, but they were the agreed upon rules and Florida and Michigan made a huge error in moving their election.

[MonkeyFunk]

41. That's in the past...

now we have to look ahead. Do you think it's wise to write off those two important states for the general election?

I think it's brain-dead.

[julialnyc]

49. While I don't think it's wise to "write them off" I think they were written off ages ago when the ru

They were written off ages ago when the rules were established. Unless they can throw together another contest, they have to follow the rules .It would be unethical to change rules from counting no one (as previously established), to handing it to someone. They need to re-do or follow their own rules.

Undoubtedly people will be unhappy either way, but Florida and Michigan state officials are the ones to point the finger at. I highly doubt people will just vote for McCain in rebellion.

[MonkeyFunk]

50. Many Democrats will just not vote at all

I see no benefit to adhering to a strict reading of the rules if it loses us the general election.

[DesEtoiles]

7. MI and FL need to hold new primaries if the want their delegates to count.

With both candidates having a fair and full chance to campaign. That didn't happen before. Therefore, the vote was tainted, and the delegates cannot count.

[Pathwalker]

9. There will be no second primary in Michigan, unless

State Law is changed, and the Republicans here in Michigan won't allow that to happen.

[rateyes]

23. Hold a caucus. The state can't control that. nt

[Pathwalker]

26. The Repuclican can - and will. State law would have to be changed.

They won't allow it.

[stevenleser]

11. This is the only fair solution that satisfies most people

I think you know where I stand having written two articles now on the subject. Over 80% of respondants indicate that new caucuses would be satisfactory to them. It is now up to the Michican and Florida state Democrats along with the DNC and the two candidates to try to make this happen.

[madfloridian]

12. Nelson is boss here and he says a resounding NO

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1817

[stevenleser]

14. I know that. I called him out on it too. Not sure if you saw my 2nd article...

Let me know

[rateyes]

24. As you know,

Nelson sucks. I hope the people of Florida vote his ass out when they get the chance. He screwed them.

[Pathwalker]

13. It's also up to Michigan Republicans.

Unfortunately.

[DEMocracity]

61. EXACTLY !!! n/t

[madfloridian]

8. The nominee will be selected without FL or MI delegates.

And I believe that includes superdelegates. God, I hope so. Then Nelson and Hastings and Wasserman Schultz will have hissy fits.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1795

[UALRBSofL]

16. Considering Fl /MI votes don't count

Then they shouldn't count in the GE.

[madfloridian]

17. Get back to me when you read up on things.

:shrug:

[UALRBSofL]

18. I see where this is going

You want our votes in the GE but the DNC fucked us over in the primaries.

[julialnyc]

21. The state kind of fucked over the voters by moving the election ahead in schedule

and now that this race is going to the bitter ends, it is evident just how badly. The vote would have mattered if they didn't try and break the rules.

[rateyes]

27. The State Democratic Party of Florida fucked you over...

not the DNC. The State Party voted for the rules that were in place and then intentionally violated those rules. Take your gripe to the people responsible---Nelson, Hastings, Wasserman-Schulz, and the whole Democratic delegation in the Florida House and Senate.

You were disenfranchised by your own. You should direct your anger toward them.

[Carolina]

32. no, the DNC didn't fuck you

you state party officials did

[madfloridian]

34. FL Dems introduced, sponsored the bill, and voted for it 115 to 1

Then they tried to play the victim. They lied and blamed Dean.

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

[joshcryer]

43. The superdelegates can chose to seat them if they wanted.

Don't see why you'd want a million plus votes not to count.

[Carolina]

25. K&R

[samrock]

28. This not some GOT YA game...

You are talking about peoples votes!!.. The people who voted had no say when the elections where held... and IF Obama won most of these delegates the Obama people would be trying to get them in!! IF Obama gets the nomination AND the people of MI and FL have gotten no say so.. expect MANY of them to sit on there hands in November.. This is EPICALLY true in Florida.. They already saw the republicans cheat them.. NOW the democrats are going to do it as well??? Seems many people here are saying "IF I can't have it may way I will just take my ball and go home"!! HELLO President McCain...

[julialnyc]

33. I'm sure the Obama people would want the votes too if it were them who won, but that doesn't change

I'm sure Obama supporters (and Obama) would want their vote too if they won, but that doesn't change the conundrum of the situation. It was not a fair playing field and the statse broke rules where they knew the consequence. There is no way you won't piss off many many people, but Florida and Michigan have their states to thank for it. It is disingenuous to point the finder at Obama saying he doesn't care about a particular state, when he has so much ground to cover and was told that it wouldn't count. Florida and Michigan have every right to be angry, but the candidates are not the ones to blame.

[samrock]

37. well

You can dance around the maypole arguing all ya want.. but it is the voters on these two states who will play the price.. and IF we ALL have to then pay the price of there being pissed off at having ther votes taken away by getting a President McCain ..... Sigh .. it will just be soo sad.. cause THEN our troops in Iraq ( and maybe Iran) will have to keep ON paying with there limbs and lives!!!

If sorry but I just can not get up the emotional energy to fight Obama va Clinton.. I want this STUPID battle to end.. They agree on 90+% on the issues.. I want one of them I DO NOT CARE WHO!!! As our next president.. and I pray to GOD this in fighting does not cost the election...

[madfloridian]

35. FL Dems introduced, sponsored the bill, and voted for it 115 to 1

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

[rateyes]

62. I'll say this again. I'm not a supporter of either Obama or Clinton...

and, at this point, could give a rat's ass. My proposed solution doesn't favor either one. And, it's clear that if you thought it would favor Hillary, you would be in favor of it.

[cyclezealot]

36. Personally I am proud of Michigan Democrats.

Good for them. No one is crying. Fla Democrats are adamant, I read. The system is broke. I don't want to vote following New Hampshires' left overs. We deserve to vote for the candidate of our choice. Actually, it seems to be Dean who is crying. He wants Mich,/ Fla Dems to decide the nominees fate. Since we did not get to decide upon those we actually favored and NH eliminated them for us. Don't care if we vote or not.

[snappyturtle]

42. Amen. K&R n/t

[joshcryer]

45. This would be a possible outcome, but that would be decided at the DNC.

And I expect Hillary's superdelegates would vote to seat them simply out of desire not to disenfranchise millions of voters who had no control over what their party did.

[suston96]

47. Read my lips: count all the votes ! That is what happens in a democracy. Award the delegates.

That too also happens in a democracy.

I cannot believe that a democratic forum board has serious supporters for diluting the voting rights of fellow democrats.

[rateyes]

63. If you can come up with a fair way for all the votes to actually

count, then fine. Seating what would be in place after the sham primaries that took place disenfranchises a lot of voters.

[yewberry]

48. I feel for the voters in MI and FL

but I don't think the delegates should be seated. The state parties knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, and the issue of what will happen in the GE is exactly what they want the rest of the country to be talking about. They're trying to blackmail Democrats nationwide and trying to place blame on the DNC and Dean.

Yes, reform the primary calendar, but no, don't seat FL and MI delegates.

[UALRBSofL]

51. Right, don't seat the delegates

And don't count the votes in the GE either. Good idea.

[yewberry]

56. There's that blackmail I mentioned.

"Meet our demands or you're screwed in the General."

The FL and MI parties (and you, it appears) are trying to force their demands on me and the rest of the nation. Shameful.

[seybor]

57. Choose: Rules or no - Super dels + no MI/FL

Is fair (even as a MI voter, I recognize this. MI/FL + exclusion dels is fair if we're looking at changing inappropriate and inconvenient rules. You can't have it both ways.

[robbedvoter]

58. Better yet: take away all delegates from the states Hillary won. And expell the Hillbots

from DU. And send the women to the kitchen where they belong. Now, who brought the keg?

[rateyes]

64. I detect a note of sarcasm in your disgusting post. nt

[Orangepeel]

59. self delete

never mind. I misread the original post.

[hill08]

60. this will be VERY irresponsible and politically miopic

[tandem5]

65. Please, Obama supporters, help me understand...

This is an age long fight between individual voters and the DNC. Why shouldn't larger states, that are more representative of the entire country, have a bigger say in who gets the nomination? This is as old Washington as it gets.

Now I understand Michigan and Florida broke the rules, but I can't help but think how perfectly this idea of fighting the establishment so that a more diverse group of voters can have a larger impact dovetails with Obama's message. Surely had Obama won these two states would we not hear this emphasis from the Obama campaign?

In fact we hear it now with respect to super delegates! - The outrage that party leaders and not the electorate could end up deciding this primary.

Do you not see the inherent contradiction: Dump the super delegation because they do not reflect the will of the people and discount the voters in Michigan and Florida because they went against the will of the establishment.

[nonconformist]

66. I'm from MI, but I don't live there now... but I have a lot of family and friends there.

A few in FL, too.

I will tell you this - Michigan Dems are VERY upset about this. They feel that they moved their primary up so that they would actually get a voice, considering Michigan is in a WORLD OF SHIT right now. They wanted someone to LISTEN to them, to address their concerns.

But it completely backfired, and it's not the voter's fault.

They of course want to be seated. They feel betrayed by those in the party that are saying they shouldn't count. They point out that "uncommitted" was voted by people who preferred Obama or Edwards, and point to the strong turnout at this "meaningless" primary as evidence that their voice was accurately recorded.

That's what I've been hearing.