Michigan delegates get "delegated" to canidates.

[catagory5]

Hillary Rodham Clinton will get the lion's share of Democratic national convention delegates after winning the state's Jan. 15 presidential primary.

The Michigan Democratic Party said Friday that Clinton will get 73 pledged delegates after winning 55 percent of the statewide vote.

Another 55 delegates will be uncommitted since 40 percent of the Democratic voters chose uncommitted. Because Barack Obama and John Edwards had taken their names off the ballot, many of their supporters voted for uncommitted.

The state also has 28 superdelegates, many of whom remain uncommitted, for a total of 156.

Michigan has been stripped of its delegates for moving up its primary, but party leaders expect the delegates to be seated at the national convention.


http://www.mlive.com/elections/index.ssf/2008/02/michigan_dems_allocated_delega.html

[ray of light]

1. that is UNACCEPTABLE! They are saysing "we aren't taking your vote...oh now we are"

Well, they're fake plan to try to make up for their screw up is UNACCEPTABLE.

THEY have DENIED US A REAL PRIMARY.

Call them and give them hell folks!

[IndieLeft]

62. This won't happen... Don't Worry!

The MDP does NOT have authority over the DNC! You people keep forgetting that. There is nothing to worry about here.

[MercutioATC]

2. Michigan delegates, especially, should not be seated without another election.

Of the two frontrunners, HRC was the only name on the ballot. That gives her an unfair advantage and subverts the process.

[joshcryer]

10. This seems to be against DNC rules more than simply voting to seat them.

Since it would mean an election doover, which would go against the spirit of them voting early to begin with. They wanted more sway in the elections, they were denyed that by not having their delegates seated.

[bain_sidhe]

26. Bullshit.

Obama and Edwards had their chance at Michigan voters, "sanctioned" primary or not. They threw us under the bus to pander to Iowa. F'em.

[ray of light]

38. Do you live in Michigan? If not then STFU! It's not your delegates it's not your vote

AND I bet you didn't like it when they refused to count the votes for Gore in 2000 or Kerry in 2004.

So GROW UP BUDDY.

It's not about Obama, Edwards, OR Hillary.

It's about thousands of people who had their vote taken away due to insider party politics.

So grow the f*ck up!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

57. Since they have Michigan as their avatar - I assume they ARE from Mich.

n/t

[cyclezealot]

73. Agreed. all the best candidates were elimated after

New Hampshire and Iowa. Nothing to vote for anyway. I agree . They can go to hell. All our state's votes should be of equal value. I don't want to vote on anyone else's leftover. Call Mike Brewer and tell him we are proud of what he did.

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. BULL. They could have left their names on the ballot too. Their choice, their loss. n/t

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[desi]

3. Let the whining begin.

:nopity:

[joshcryer]

4. More posts which have been discussed to death which, essentially, fall under the post limit rule.

Can't wait until it's inacted.

[RoadRage]

5. If this is true, I will NOT vote for HRC in the General Election

If she wins because she WINS, I will vote for her.

If she wins because she cheats, and has no problems doing so - I will not, and will sit back while McCain takes the presidency.

If a republican did this to us, we would file lawsuits, move to Canada, etc. Look at 2000.

So FUCK YOU to ANY democrat (Hillary supporter or Not) who thinks that this is OK. Re-do the vote, Have a Caucus.. i don't care. But saying that they don't count.. then counting them to help that candidate is the most undemocratic thing I can think of.

[joshcryer]

8. She would not be cheating to propose seating the delegates, and they get seated, and count toward...

...her win.

That's not cheating at all. That's within the DNC rules.

I would felt more cheated if she proposed that they be seated but Obama chose not to seat them because he'd lose. Especially since they both have said that they would seat the delegates.

[557188]

22. Get out of here

Cry much?

Just because you want to suppress vote and might not get your way you want McCain to be president and kill the Supreme Court?

Jesus christ you cult members are unbelievable.

[RoadRage]

28. What the FUCK are you talking about????

Supress Votes? What does "This doesn't Count" Do to supress votes? A LOT - especially if the candidate you support doesn't even have his name on the ballot.

I'm all for REDOING the damn thing, making it FAIR and then counting ALL OF THE VOTES. If Hillary WINS THAT, and thus wins the Primary, i'm fine with voting for her.

But no, deciding after the fact that these delegates count when Obama isn't even on the ballot in MI.. FUCK YOU, FUCK HER. And helloooooo McCain.

And frankly YOU and Hillary supporters should be VERY worried about this. Hate me & my cult all the fuck you want - but come October you're going to need every damn democrat you can scrap up to go to the polls. Cheating and Pissing on our candidate now, and expecting us to turnout for you in the fall is a pipe dream. She WILL NOT WIN if she tries to steal this thing. She might not even win if she doesn't.

[joshcryer]

29. Redoing won't let them learn their lesson.

Do you not comprehend this? The national party doesn't want state parties dictating to them. If they voters don't learn their lesson, then they have no incentive to vote out their national party officials. You people still don't get it.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

59. Michigan and Florida voters did nothing - it's the polticians. I think they've learned a lesson.

n/t

[557188]

31. Whine whine whine

It was fair. Obama decided to take his name off the ballot and not give Michigan VOTERS a choice. That was his decision and he has to live with the consequences of that decision. His voters could've voted uncommitted or for someone else.

Its sad that you would be willing to give up the Supreme court because you can't get your way. Boo fucking hoo.

[ray of light]

43. You don't know anything buddy. If you truly want Hillary or Obama to represent the

people then LET THE PEOPLE VOTE FAIRLY.

Does the DNC have to be like the RNC?

This is too much like 2000 when Florida wouldn't let people vote. And like 2004 when Ohio and FLorida took away LEGAL votes.

Hillary or Obama represents all 50 states. SO LET ALL 50 STATES VOTE and be COUNTED!

[Orangepeel]

49. It was his choice within the rules that existed. His choice should stand if the rules stand.

It isn't fair to change the rules in the middle of the contest.

[RoadRage]

56. Thanks.. I appreciate your comment - and I LOVE your bumper sticker..

The Donate Life. My dad had a Heart Transplant in 1985 actually.. he lived 21 years (passed away from cancer last December). Organ Donors are the most unselfish people in the world!

:)

[VolcanoJen]

48. Amen to that, RoadRage.

Wow. I'm seriously shocked that so many DUers are all for gaming the system as long as it favors Hillary Clinton.

[indimuse]

74. QUIT CRYING!! Obama wanted to STICK to by the rules in IL.. to HELP him win.Rules R RULES!!

"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled

"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story

It was in this part of the city that an eager reform Democrat by the name of Abner Mikva first entered elected office in the 1950s. And here a young, brash minister

named Jesse Jackson ran Operation Breadbasket, leading marchers who sought to pressure grocery chains to hire minorities.

Palmer served the district in the Illinois Senate for much of the 1990s. Decades earlier, she was working as a community organizer in the area when Obama was

growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia. She risked her safe seat to run for Congress and touted Obama as a suitable successor, according to news accounts and

interviews.

But when Palmer got clobbered in that November 1995 special congressional race, her supporters asked Obama to fold his campaign so she could easily retain her

state Senate seat.

Obama not only refused to step aside, he filed challenges that nullified Palmer's hastily gathered nominating petitions, forcing her to withdraw.

"I liked Alice Palmer a lot. I thought she was a good public servant," Obama said. "It was very awkward. That part of it I wish had played out entirely differently."

His choice divided veteran Chicago political activists.

"There was friction about the decision he made," said City Colleges of Chicago professor emeritus Timuel Black, who tried to negotiate with Obama on Palmer's

behalf. "There were deep disagreements."

Had Palmer survived the petition challenge, Obama would have faced the daunting task of taking on an incumbent senator. Palmer's elimination marked the first of

several fortuitous political moments in Obama's electoral success: He won the 2004 primary and general elections for U.S. Senate after tough challengers imploded

when their messy divorce files were unsealed.

In a recent interview, Obama granted that "there's a legitimate argument to be made that you shouldn't create barriers to people getting on the ballot."

But the unsparing legal tactics were justified, he said, by obvious flaws in his opponents' signature sheets. "To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled!!


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled!


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled!

[Exultant Democracy]

6. they are going to have to have a cacuse after everyone else is done voting

if they want to get seated. There is some precedence for this since it isn't the first time this has happened.

[Vinca]

7. That is completely unfair.

Obama didn't campaign there and it's been shown, time and time again, that after he goes into a state and campaigns, his numbers rise significantly. Very, very unfair.

[joshcryer]

9. So in other words the voters are idiots and their votes shouldn't count because they didn't know...

...how awesome Obama was?

[Vinca]

15. The voters aren't idiots, their party leaders are.

They agreed to a stupid scheme which has turned Michigan into a fiasco when, had they agreed to the original date, might have made Michigan one of the most important states on the calendar. Obama shouldn't be punished because Michigan Democratic leaders are morons.

[joshcryer]

18. MI and FL should not have a considerable say in this matter. By allowing a revote...

...in a time where things are tight, they would basically be absolved of the wrongdoing that their parties did. This is wrong.

[Faygo Kid]

17. He wasn't even on the ballot. Neither was Edwards.

They withdrew their names, as they were supposed to do. Hillary didn't. Ugly stunt that may pay off for her, but no one can claim this in any way, shape or form as a "fair election."

Which matters not to the HC supporters, apparently.

[joshcryer]

20. The DNC never told them to go that far.

They explicitly said they couldn't campaign, they never said they had to remove their names from the ballots. Obama wants to pretend removing his name was "in the spirit of the pledge," when that's just assinine.

[pampango]

27. They all agreed not to campaign or participate in those two primaries.

Edwards and Obama thought "not participating" meant taking your name off the ballot. Hillary thought that not "participating" as just not campaigning. I would say that Obama and the others would have done better to define the word the way Clinton did. Of course, they all agreed that there would be no delegates awarded.

Is what Hillary doing "cheating"? It depends on how you define "cheating". I suppose that she could pretend that none of this is her doing, so "what can I do about it?" I know the Democratic parties in the two states support Hillary, but you can't prove she's behind this, other than some vague pronouncements that the votes should count.

It may or may not be cheating, but it enough to motivate one not to support Hillary in the GE.

[joshcryer]

32. I think cheating is wanting to disenfranchise millions of voters.

Obviously if the tables were turned Hillary would probably be the one wanting to disenfranchise them.

But let's not be delusional that these people are nothing more than politicians.

[pampango]

53. Unfortunately, they all agreed to "disenfranchise" millions of voters by agreeing

not to campaign or participate in those primaries.

I don't think highly of the one who subsequently "won" the primaries, then suddenly becomes a champion of the "disenfranchised". I assume that you believe that Obama would do the same maneuver as Hillary, if he had won those primaries. I disagree, but neither us can prove we are right.

[never_get_over_it]

68. If you think he wouldn't fight for those votes

if he were ahead - then you think he is a pretty STUPID politician - and he isn't and he would...

this isn't a tea party folks it is hardball politics and it looks like in this case Clinton campaign was dead on correct to leave her name on the ballot...

I'm in Florida and voted for John Edwards - and I do not want to vote again - nor do I think we need to or should - ALL of their names were on the ballots - MI it would have been nice if all their names were on the ballots - but if Edwards and Obama chose to take their names off - well thems the breaks - Dennis Kucinich left his name on....

I've said all along - even before the primaries started that the Dems will seat these two states - because it would be a giant fuck up NOT to - actually saying they wouldn't seat them was the GIANT fuck up - couldn't they have found another way to "punish" the state parties....because the way they punished them in reality punished the VOTERS of two IMPORTANT states in the general and DUH did it not occur to any of them that these states might be important in the primary....

[pampango]

69. I think that "stupidity" is not the only possible explanation for not fighting

for delegates from a primary you agreed in advance would produce no delegates. You are entitled to your opinion.

Look, Hillary is a great "hard ball" campaigner and strategist. In retrospect, it was a great tactic to nullify Obama's success at attracting voters in states where he campaigns. You get everyone to agree not to campaign in, participate in or get any delegates from a state. The primary happens, you win, and you come back and play "hard ball" to get those delegates counted. I admire her as a tough political player.

As you know Edwards, Obama and others took their names off the ballot in Michigan, because they all agreed not to participate in the primary and they considered having your name on the ballot as "participating". Hillary chose to define "participating" differently and it appears to have been a very smart (politically) move, if not in keeping with the spirit of the agreement all the candidates reached.

I realize that now her tactic and that of her supporters in Florida and Michigan is to "just say "no"" to any new primaries or caucuses and yell "disenfranchisement". Again, I can admire the strategy without approving of it.

[never_get_over_it]

75. Oh please don't misunderstand me

I'm not saying it is right - but it is politics - and I believe if the vote count was reversed Obama would be fighting for those votes too

And I don't think I'm going to be too hard on Clinton because she left her name on the ballot and interpreted participating as campaigning because Dennis Kucinich left his name on the ballot too

You know this could be spun to say both Kucinich and Clinton didn't want to disenfranchise their voters and so they left their names on the ballot

That's the problem with spin - it can go every which way - and make us all friggin DIZZY

Bottom line whoever the dumb ass is who made this decision originally to not seat delegates to "punish" the state parties really was STUPID - because the biggest impact was on voters that had nothing to do with the decision - "they" should have found a better way to "punish" the state party...and now it is biting them in the butt

Bottom line this whole primary thing is FREAKING MESSED up

[AZ Criminal JD]

36. If Edwards and Obama thought "not participating" was to take

their names off the ballot, then why didn't they take their names off the Florida ballot?

[pampango]

51. I understand that they tried to, but the deadline had passed in Florida. n/t

[ORDem]

64. Whether you call it cheating or not, it's the way of the Clintons

They will do anything to get elected. Take Hillary's big victory celebration in FL for delegates they'd agreed would not count. This is one example of why I (a lifelong Dem) will never vote for her. She's part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[Firespirit]

25. Exactly

The lack of a complete ballot is bad... but what makes this election invalid is the fact that the voters were told one thing BEFORE they voted -- that their votes would not count -- and when circumstances arise AFTER the vote that are completely unrelated to the fake election (namely, the prospect of no clear nominee), the party changes the rules about those ballots.

They changed the rules out of expediency. THAT is the issue, not who benefits by it.

[joshcryer]

35. Their votes won't count.

Don't understand the issue, I really don't. People need to understand this more.

[iamjoy]

19. That Was Obama's Choice

Obama CHOSE not to campaign in Michigan, just as he made a decision not to campaign in Florida. The candidates caved to pressure from IA, NH, NV and SC in deciding to sign the Four State Pledge and punish the states having rogue primaries. He chose to remove his name from the Michigan ballot, likely to raise his stock in the Anointed Four.

That being said, HRC also signed the Four State Pledge, but now that the early states have gone, is trying to play nicey-nice with Florida and Michigan.

It sucks, but it is not unfair to Obama. He could have competed in Florida and Michigan.

[557188]

24. Obama isn't very good at political strategy

Yet another reason to fear an Obama nomination.

[Nailzberg]

58. The Rules and Bylaws Committee could have stripped Obama of delegates for campaigning.

20.C.1.b of the DNC Delegate Selection Rules

A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in
violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is
set by a state’s government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these
rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state.

[iamjoy]

71. True, But Meaningless

Since the DNC had already decreed that Florida and Michigan wouldn't have any delegates anyway, it would not have made a difference if the candidates had campaigned here or not.

I think they really figured why bother to spend money in a state if it isn't going to get me any delegates anyway.

Hey, to give Obama credit, at least he didn't follow along with one set of rules and then try to change them (conveniently) after the results were known. But, it doesn't do any good crying foul now or saying Hillary Clinton cheated. She is the beneficiary of the whole primary spat between Florida/Michigan and the DNC.

[samrock]

11. ok than

Fire the DNC officials that ran this ... Sue them if ya want.. but do NOT make the voters pay. They did not do anything wrong.. they just went out and voted and now you are punishing them.. it is hard enough to get Americans to the polls..

[nonconformist]

12. Excellent! nt

[Faygo Kid]

13. Hold on, this travesty is not yet written in stone.

This is what "party leaders" are proposing - it's the Hillary machine at work. If they try to get the nomination based on Hillary breaking the rules, all hell will break loose.

What a disaster this was for Michigan, which should have been holding its primary today. How big would that have been? It's my home state, and if Hillary gets the delegates based on this fraudulent result, she is going to end up losing the election.

[Firespirit]

14. That's ridiculous

Michigan to the public: "Here's an election! It's all in fun; your votes won't count, and if your candidate isn't on the ballot, vote Uncommitted, because it won't matter anyway."

........

Later: "OMG we might not have a nominee until the convention! Look -- here are some votes. Doesn't matter if it was a legit election, the important thing is to nominate someone in advance!"

Sounds a lot like the reasoning behind Florida 2000 -- "for the good of the nation, we MUST have a president-elect by a certain point." That sure worked out well, didn't it.

[Tatiana]

16. Good points. n/t

[Radical Activist]

21. That disenfranchises a lot of Michigan voters.

Its unfair to those who didn't vote because they thought it didn't matter and to those who didn't see their candidate on the ballot. This is ridiculous.

[Auntie Bush]

23. That's great news! #1 because Hillary won more votes and

#2 I don't think anyone should be disenfranchised because Dean and the state have different opinions and were unable to work out an acceptable solution. That's sad! I can see where both sides have a point.

[Kittycat]

33. It is Taking the vote away from many.

Citizens were told their delegates wouldn't be seated. And their candidates weren't on the ballot. Think of how many stayed home, or voted uncommitted. HRC will not get those without a new vote.

[AZ Criminal JD]

37. Their candidates were on the ballot. It was called "Uncommitted"

The Edwards and Obama campaign urged their supporters to vote Uncommitted and everyone knew that. It is why Uncommitted got a far higher percent of the vote than it normally does. The Uncommitted delegates are free to vote for Obama or Edwards or anyone they feel like.

[ray of light]

41. Do you live in Michigan? Did you have to pick "write In" or "Uncommitted" or DK or Clinton?

If you don't live here and understand the many different ways the "establishment" was trying to get us to vote, then stfu.

The people in Michigan didn't have any campaigners here. They didn't have any ads. They didn't have any debates. They didn't have outreach from any of the candidates.

And they had party people telling them 'Vote write in, vote uncommitted, vote anti-establishment for DK because uncommitted wouldn't count and neither would the write ins'>

So you don't know squat of what you're speaking about.

uncommitted is the same thing as saying, 'you're vote isn't counting buddy!"

[Little Star]

45. They could have left their name on the ballot just like Kuch &

Hillary. They made a bad decision, period.

[ray of light]

46. shut up. You don't know jack. It's not about Obama or Edwards. it's

about the PEOPLE in MIchigan who LOST DEMOCRACY.

So stfu!

[AZ Criminal JD]

78. I guess saying stfu is the only thing your brain can compose

People are not going to stfu even though Dean and his gang at the DNC have tried to disqualify the voters of Florida and Michigan. Not going to happen so stfu.

[ray of light]

47. Once again. It's not DEMOCRATIC to take away peoples' rights to vote.

And that's what this is about.

Would it be ok if it was Gore?

It's not about WHO was involved. It is the WHOLE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS that they STOLE.

Get it?

STOLE!

[Kittycat]

50. Kucinich messed his paperwork up to be taken off.

[AZ Criminal JD]

77. Right, that paperwork is so, so hard. Easy excuse.

Most of us are not so naive to believe that.

[AZ Criminal JD]

76. I am not going to "stfu"

Edwards and Obama supporters from Michigan were all over DU telling people to vote "Uncommitted". What happened in Michigan was the doing of Dean and the DNC. If you can't understand that then stfu.

[Cameron27]

79. They certainly were telling

people to vote uncommitted, and if I understand it correctly, there was a movement promoting the uncommitted vote in MI too.

[1awake]

34. Maybe I'm alone on this,

But I see it this way... If the Florida and Michigan votes are counted as is, or anything based upon it, not only would this directly disenfranchise the voters, but in my opinion would be a form of cheating delegitimizing whoever benefited from it. It's a completely messed up situation, but you don't solve it by lying, changing the rules on people after the fact, or by selecting rather than electing.

Allow Florida and Michigan voters to vote again or caucus, or they shouldn't count the travesty we call a vote in those places at all. The last thing I want is Hillary or Obama going up against a repub with huge questions of legitimacy.

[psquare]

40. We really need some sanity in this whole issue

I'd love to start a thread on this but I don't have enough posts. The whole issue here is that Clinton and Obama will not be able to get the 2025 delegates through the primaries and caucus alone. They will need the Superdelegates as well. This is, simply, not very democratic.

To address this I have started an online petition to have the DNC amend the convention rules to assure that sufficient Superdelegates are bound to the winner of a majority of Pledged Delegates (1627 if MI and FL aren't added). Please visit the petition site, read, and if you agree, please sign the petition.

Together we can bring some sanity to this process!

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/dem2008/petition.html

[ray of light]

42. You are absolutely correct. A thousand standing ovations to you.

It's just like what i posted upthread. It's not about hillary or obama. It's about the VOTERS in MICHIGAN and whether the Democratic party is now going to be run like the Republican party and prevent peoples' vote from counting.

[ORDem]

66. Don't forget why this mess was created in the first place...

whether you agree or not, MI and FL were being punished for moving their primaries so far ahead. On that count I can support the original action. The last thing we need are primaries in October of the year before the GE! The primary process is such a cluster f**k as it is!!

[newmajority]

52. How does Hillary "win" if she's the only one on the ballot?

If I were a Michigan voter, I'd probably want a new primary caucus/election which actually counted, but no way in Hell would I support giving Hillary an uncontested race which wasn't even in compliance with the rules.

[Auntie Bush]

54. You only want the rules to be upheld if it means you get more votes.

Proof is you want to deny the super delegates their vote even though the rules are clearly written. You want to change that rule because you think you'll get the majority of the votes. Aren't you being hypocritical?

[Avalux]

44. Ludicrous. Hillary DID NOT win. She said FU to the DNC and ran unopposed.

The delegates will not be seated per Howard Dean and he will win this one.

[revolve]

55. The Michigan Primary Results Should Not Count

I, a lifelong democrat, voted for a republican in the primary because my vote wouldn't count in the democratic primary. If I thought the delegates would be seated I would have voted uncommited as would many of my friends. If you are not from Michigan Or Florida, please STFU about this, on either side.

[scheming daemons]

60. If Hillary steals this nomination by getting the MI and FL delegates seated....

...she will lose the GE in a landslide.... the entire narrative for the GE campaign will be about how she cheated her way to the nomination.

at least 50% of the Obama supporters will sit it out in protest.

This would be a coup de tat. And it would split the Democratic party in two.


If Howard Dean allows this to happen, he will be writing the obituary for the Democratic party as we know it.


Go ahead Hillary ..... try it. It will be your political suicide.

[ORDem]

67. I'd also predict that superdelegates would abandon her in

droves if she did that. They are already calculating the length of Hillary's and Barack's November coattails.

[BattyDem]

61. Why does the Michigan Democratic Party get to decide?

Isn't this a DNC decision? :shrug:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

80. I think the MDP gets to decide

how the delegates are apportioned to the candidates.

The DNC gets to decide if those delegates get to participate in the convention.

I hope MI delegates are excluded from the convention. The primary was flawed because not all candidates were on it. A last-minute caucus will also be flawed, because the date and time will likely exclude many workers. A last-minute voting primary is probably out of the question, too expensive.

[bigdarryl]

63. This sounds like the Bullshit Bush did in 2000 with FL. the Clintons are not any different this is..

BULLSHIT Obama wasn't even on the damn ballot in Michigan.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

65. dissapointing, if this is true, I might have to change my vote for the Texas primary/caucus nt

wait, I don't believe, you're probably just a republican trying to create strife here on DU, well, just to let you know I'll vote Dem. in the GE no matter what, actually, I can pretty much tell you with complete certainty that I will be voting Dem. for the rest of my life :)

I just don't like cheaters, who does?

[Eric J in MN]

70. This is ridiculous. Barack Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot. NT

NT

[totodeinhere]

72. Even under your unlikely scenario that's only a gain of 18 delegates for Clinton.

IMO she will need more than that. Plus as many in this thread have already said, it won't happen anyway.

[HeraldSquare212]

81. Michigan superdelegates are remaining ucommitted - they don't buy her argument that she won

and if the party leaders in Michigan don't buy it, it's going to be hard to convince party leaders from elsewhere in the country to support it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

83. BUT SHE DID!

[HeraldSquare212]

84. I had a vote in my living room this morning; we decided Obama was the nominee.

It has the same relevance and impact as the Michigan vote.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

82. another cicada flamebait ...when are we DUers gona see what is happening here?