Why are many Bread and Butter Dem Voters voting for Hillary Clinton?

[FrenchieCat]

Both she and Obama have detailed policy papers, and I note that it is Hillary who continuously changes her campaign stump speech to incorporate Obama's approach. I listened to her today, and I am not deaf as to the fact that she is doing this.

Some cite that Johnny and Jane Paycheck, in the majority, are going with Clinton. They call these folks, "her" voters. But why is this the case?

Why are these voters ignoring the following about Hillary Clinton?


NAFTA support,
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/hillary-clinton-nafta-_b_71544.html


her unapologetic pro IWR vote, against the Levin Amendment, and Oops! Not reading the NIE
http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html


her IRAN Resolution yes vote,
http://pundits.thehill.com/2007/10/25/hillary-clinton%E2%80%99s-bad-iran-vote/


her Bankruptcy vote
http://jinchi.blogspot.com/2007/03/hillary-clinton-and-bankruptcy-bill-of.html


her voting against banning Cluster Bomb
http://www.atlargely.com/2008/02/clinton-vs-obam.html


Her Children Left Behind vote
http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/02/03/clinton-hypocracy-no-child-left-behind/

Her lack of policies specifically on poverty
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4510484


Her ties to the Corporate world both thru her work on the Board of Wallmart,
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0207-34.htm

her lobbyst donors
http://whazgoinon.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/hillary-clinton-biggest-recipient-of-lobbyist-donations/

and inpending disasters on the millions of contribution to the Clinton library and foundations that are already been leaked out
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4473288


do these qualities that Hillary truly has and does represent what these poor voters really truly want in their candidate, or is it simply that Hillary, with her last name recognition Clinton is the "safest" default candidate, because they don't know enough about Barack Obama?

I do believe that once they learn of Obama's biography, and the work that he has done in behalf of the Democratic party ideals, they will realize, and rightfully so, that Hillary is the corporate candidate....and that it is Obama who most closely aligns as the candidate who has fought for them and with them.....all along the way, consistently and faithfully.

[Maddy McCall]

1. Don't you ever sleep? Eat? Bathe?

[jackson_dem]

5. She is very "motivated"

I wonder what the "motivation" is. ;)

[FrenchieCat]

11. Why do you ask such a bizarre question, Maddy McCall?

Please go ahead and attack me personally, as though this will improve Hillary Clinton's true record.

[Maddy McCall]

13. Just an observation.

Poor you.

[FrenchieCat]

23. I think that you are the one showing yourself.

I didn't speak ill of you in this post, Maddy McCall, but I find that this is what you have done to me here and in other threads.

You don't address the issues that I raise, however.....and so, how does attacking me in this personal way, like questionning my bathing habits, makes you superior or right in what way? What is so special about you that gives you this right?

[Maddy McCall]

27. You don't raise issues.

You're a broken record.

[FrenchieCat]

31. Your opinion is just that. What is broken is Hillary's true record.....

and it doesn't appear that you want to actually answer those issues.

[Quixote1818]

21. Based on the number of posts you both have. This looks to be a case of

a pot calling the kettle black. She has you beat by over 10,000 posts.

[Maddy McCall]

24. And 90% of hers are on primary topics.

Plus, I've been here longer.

[Quixote1818]

32. You both came to DU in 93 yet you have her beat by more than 10,000

posts. Holy shit!
:wow:

[Maddy McCall]

35. And not all of them are anti-obama posts restricted to one forum.

Count the number of threads started.

[Quixote1818]

41. I know Frenchicat. We were both Clark supporters and 90% of her posts

were in support of Clark. She was a walking computer for facts about Wes Clark. I thought she was incredible with her ability to defend Clark on every subject with so many facts peoples heads were spinning. She is very good at what she does and that seems to frustrate a lot of people who support other candidates.

[Maddy McCall]

42. I was an active Clark supporter, too! I know what went on back then.

My opinion and yours are different.

[FrenchieCat]

33. And that makes you "better'?

How superior of you.....Ms. Been here longer posting about a bunch of stuff so I count more Maddie McCall! Your complex is palatable.

However, the Issues I raised are ignored by you, the prolific poster for a really long time of really interesting stuff.

[Maddy McCall]

When you get off your one-trick-pony, maybe I'll respond.

But nothing you post now is worthy of response.

[FrenchieCat]

51. That is your pronouncement....one that helps you justify

not debating anything, other than attacking me personally.

Some will one day realize that personal insults and attacks against other DUers does not resemble rational debates on the actual political issues whatsoever.

During this primary season, you have clearly decided that what is important to you is to sweep Hillary's record under the rug, and call me out.....and that is how you will be remembered.

[Quixote1818]

58. There are 10 trick pony's listed in the OP not one. nt

[Quixote1818]

19. This is her only thread up right now.

You post about as much as she does. Do you ever sleep or bathe? :shrug:

You also have over almost 14,000 more posts than she does. :rofl:

[Maddy McCall]

22. She only comes out in primary season. I've been here over five years.

And this is certainly not her only live thread. Search her as OP and you'll see that she has approximately 20 live threads.

[FrenchieCat]

29. Counting up threads, does not answer the issue that I raise......

but only serves as a distraction....

If I saw you in the threads in where Obama is smeared and questioned attacking the posters who start these threads.....you might have more credibility, regardless of what you claim to have done over the past 5 years versus what I have done.

You see, it is the personalization of your posts that make you wrong.

[Maddy McCall]

38. One-trick-pony.

That's you.

[FrenchieCat]

48. And so what is your "Trick"? To inquire about my bathing habits as an important issue?

In the middle of a primary battle of this most important election, how does whether I use or don't use water with my showers really count as the "important" issue? and why is this being raised by you, who apparently, according to you, is the better and most superior poster here on DU?

[Cassandra]

28. Is there an odor wafting up from your monitor...

or your keyboard? I understand the sleep question, but bathe?

[jackson_dem]

2. Wasn't this poster crying about these very tactics two days ago?

[goldcanyonaz]

6. Yes, but she's a hypocrite.

[AX10]

3. Do you do anything but post on this board?

[Quixote1818]

12. This is her only thread right now.

:shrug:

Seems to me there are plenty of other posters who post a lot more than she does.

[Maddy McCall]

16. It's like listening to a top-40 station that plays "Umbrella" every third song.

Same post, different day.

[FrenchieCat]

14. Last night, I went to Yoshi's in Oakland's Jack London Square.....

had dinner and then caught the 10:00 p.m. Jazz show with my hubby of 24 years--

Bout you?

(as though this matters in our discussion of Hillary Clinton's record. :eyes: )

[goldcanyonaz]

4. You're a 1 woman anti-Clinton propaganda machine.

[FrenchieCat]

15. Is this how one addresses the Issue of Hillary Clinton's stance on various issues?

How novel! :eyes:

[shaniqua6392]

7. Meow!

Maybe they just don't trust the unknown and Obama really is unknown. They think they are better off with the devil they know rather than risk America on the devil they don't know.

[Saturday]

8. Yawn. n/t

[JVS]

9. Are they?

[FrenchieCat]

20. Seemingly, those too busy attempting to survive after NAFTA took their jobs....

and have had to go and work two jobs to make ends meet, lest they go bankrupt and be penalized, thanks in large part to Clinton's support of NAFTA and Bankruptcy reform......are currently supporting Default Democratic Candidate "Clinton".

[MethuenProgressive]

10. Becuase they're not as stupid as the "liberal" snobs Hoped they were?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Because They Want The Government To Help Them

They are too busy working to worry how the help was secured...

[jackson_dem]

18. Why is French ignoring this thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4521457

[hfojvt]

52. That thread is pretty unintentionally hilarious

The link says:

"Obama’s statement is quite long mentioning certain details, but I could not locate any overall policy statement to reconsider all trade agreements, especially the China PNTR agreement or overall policy."

So I had to look up PNTR, and found this:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa091900a.htm

"Who supports free trade with China?
Free trade with China is supported by the Clinton Administration, corporate America and agricultural interests."

So Hillary is supposedly better on trade because she now opposes the PNTR that was established in the first Clinton administration. She promises to "re-evaluate" trade agreements. Why isn't it more logical to expect the next Clinton adminstration to side with corporate America and corporate agriculture, just like the last Clinton administration did?

[jackson_dem]

60. She isn't Bill

Obama is as much if not more of a "free trader" than Hillary. Edwards is gone. We are left to choose among these two and Hillary is better on trade. Hillary at least will review all trade agreements to see if they are beneficial to American workers and would have a time-out on trade deals.

[hfojvt]

61. she is to me. Regardless of what she says in her campaign

and she certainly has not made trade, or any other issue besides health care (where she copied Edwards' plan) a campaign issue. Whether she is better on trade is arguable, and to me she/they are clearly more of a corporate sell-out
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Armstead/25

[hfojvt]

25. you are a little late to the party

she has been copying the Edwards campaign as "champion of ordinary people", willing to pretend at least long enough to win the nomination

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/73

But she is also doing the same thing Bill did.

Part one: talk about the problems of ordinary Americans and how Republican policies are hurting them and not helping them.

They do a good job of that.

Part two: Propose policies which will help the upper middle class and mostly ignore the poor.

They also spend most of their time on part one and don't really offer specifics on part two. So if you only notice part one, it really seems like they do care.

[FrenchieCat]

39. Would that mean, Welfare Reform?

http://www.mediamouse.org/features/061107bill_.php


How did this help single family household headed by women, exactly? :shrug:

[ileus]

26. WE owe it to her, our thanks to Bill for all he's done.

[AtomicKitten]

30. Because they are content to believe what she says without asking questions.

[OHdem10]

34. Pure and Simple --the working class have always been

with the Clintons.

During that horrible Clinton Presidency, the Middle Class Working
Class and Poor did very well. They have good memories.
Hilary did a lot of work with all these classes in Arkansas.
Therefire she is very comfortable with the working class
and they with her.

[Skwmom]

66. They did good because capital flooded into business start-ups, creating a bubble.

The money earned on CDs and safe investments was nominal. Meanwhile, legislation shipping jobs overseas was pushed and signed by Clinton. The job loss wasn't felt immediately so people don't tie job loss to the Clintons.

[OzarkDem]

36. Because Obama offers GOP-lite

his policies are a weak, thin soup. His health care plan has been widely discredited.

All his position statements are scant on details and triangulated with the best plans that conservative think tanks have to offer. Obama is gambling that his supporters won't bother to read the fine print. Sorry, I have and it sucks.

[FrenchieCat]

40. Please provide examples.

You speak well, but don't back your shit up.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Because She's An Amazing Candidate And Would Make An Incredible President?

Seems like a good enough reason to me.

[FrenchieCat]

45. So issues don't truly matter, right? It appears that those "poor" voters are in agreement.......

It is about who she is, and not what she has done. All surface, no substance.

Can you provide some background as to how long she worked for the Children's Defense Fund versus how long she practiced as a Corporate attorney?

Did she have National Security Clearance or attend National Security Meetings during Bill's 2 terms in office?....considering that she claims to be "better" on National security issues, nothwithstanding her IRW resolution vote, her failure to read the NIE, and her vote for the "antagonizing" Iran Resolution--what did she do that was so right on National Security Issues in reference to where we are today?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

46. "All surface, no substance." ROFLMAO!!!!!

Coming from an Obama supporter, that's the funniest goddamn thing I've heard yet!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

She's a great candidate and will make a great President. Get over it.

[FrenchieCat]

54. That is what makes it ironic, you are right......that Obama has been given this label.....

although when one digs, Hillary's 35 years are not as impressive as she would want us to believe.

Kind of like experience of bad judgment doesn't "do it" for those voters who bother to research who's who.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

43. I was thinking about this recently too,

I dont think that you can underestimate the MSM's role in this either. For whatever reasons, and regardless of whether or not you believe Hillary is the best candidate to address the economic issues, that is how she's portrayed in the MSM.

She is very knowledgeable in policy, and I think to many, especially in debates, she seems to really know what she's talking about!

But, I also read somewhere that now Obama is starting to win more bread and butter votes, so, she definately doesnt havve that segment of voters locked up

[kurth]

50. Details schmetails - We need a big-picture guy, a delegator of details

The chimp has been doing a helluva job.

[FrenchieCat]

53. What details does Hillary offer that Barack doesn't?

And how does that answer any of the "schmetails" that I am bringing up that are indeed Hillary's actions during some of her 35 years of "service"?

[newmajority]

44. Sadly, there are far too many people out there who believe what the Whore Media tells them.

70% of the American people, at one time, believed that Saddam Hussein was involved in the attack on the World Trade Center, even though there was never a shred of evidence linking him to the crime. Considering Chimp was "elected" by less than half of the voters, which in reality represent about 20% of the actual eligible voters, that would logically mean that far too many Democrats fell for this bullshit. And other bullshit over the last 7 years, no doubt. :(

[cloud75]

47. because when the country is in the middle of a disaster hope and change

are not going to get us anywhere. A president with two years of Senate experience is a big gamble in the sensitive times we live in now. HIllary not only represents change but her vast experience in being involved in government in different forms makes her the bet qualified for the the most important job on the planet. Obama is an "American Idol" a pop superstar. That is all a see in him. I need to see him in action for a few more years before totally believing what he really stands for he talks a big game but if he was really against the war which is his best argument against Hillary why did he vote to fund the war. Why didn't he do more to expose Halliburton Blackwater and other war profiteers. I know there is good and bad wIth HIllary but there is more good than bad when it comes to the issues that are important to ME.

[FrenchieCat]

49. Such as?

[cloud75]

55. Health care, Education, getting out of Iraq, Issues pertaining to minorities. n/t

[krabigirl]

56. Because not everyone likes Obama, just deal with it, ok?

[Thrill]

57. Obama could have really of run a nasty campaign against Hillary

But he really has let her slide on a lot of her votes and positions.

[paulk]

59. the discussion on the 2005 bankruptcy bill is interesting

mostly because of it's breathtaking dishonesty.

But that has become a staple for the anti-Hillary sect here on DU, and I assume out in the real world.

Please note that I say "anti-Hillary" and not "pro Obama". There is a distinction to be made there.

[AZBlue]

62. Same reason groups voted for Bush against their better interest:

misinformation or lack of information. I heard a guy on NPR the other day explain that he voted for Hillary Clinton because she's saying she'll get lobbyists out of government. Which of course she's not - Barack Obama is. But, this guy only half-heard the fact and then attributed it to the wrong person. The average US citizen is woefully lazy when it comes to educating themselves before they do something important like vote.

[Skwmom]

63. After NAFTA was signed it took a while for jobs to leave the US.

Thus many do not tie the job loss to the Clintons. But I think once this is brought out, the working class will abandon the Clintons like the Clintons abandoned the working class.

Obama surrogates in Ohio need to hit this theme and hit it hard.

[FrenchieCat]

64. Aye.......

and what I find is that the Obama campaign has its ear to the ground......they hear the netroots, and I'm sure this will be part of their next offensive strategy.

[Skwmom]

65. I hope so because I have family in Ohio. Ohio has lost so many

jobs. If the Obama campaign brings this little dirty secret out into the light of day, the Clintons will LOSE Ohio.

[Riley133]

68. This is old news and is not a dealbreaker for the Dems I know.

There are other things to consider.

[Dogmudgeon]

67. Because we can forgive politics easier than we can forgive bunkum

--p!