I suppose too that this is a lie... (Clinton vs Obama)

[Popol Vuh]

Clinton vs Obama in 2002 about Iraq.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC7d_OFdnjc


*sigh*

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DJ13]

5. So anything critical of your candidate is dismissed as "Freeper Spam" and deserves to be alerted ?

Think skin you've got there.

[maddiejoan]

7. No

anything posted over and over again by the same poster is.

[fenriswolf]

15. ah well maddie look into the rules

dont post about alerting, just do it.

[IndieLeft]

63. Rules? What Rules! Maddie Don't Need No Stinking Rules!

[populistdriven]

51. Obama = Nostradamus! He nailed it. Plus Obama's speech was 9 days b4 the IWR vote

He couldn't denounce something that hasn't happened yet, even if he is Nostradamus

[maddiejoan]

58. Where does he implore the Senate not to vote on it?

and his speech was AFTER Hillary's speech on the vote. 16 days AFTER

[IndieLeft]

65. Maddie, facts are facts.

Hillary voted to authorize the Iraq War.

Obama came out against it.

Now, can you defend Clinton for her vote? Do you agree with her decision? Was the Iraq War a good decision?

Can you answer those questions? Or are you going to change the subject again and attack Obama?

[maddiejoan]

68. This is insane

IWR did not authorize Bush's invasion --in fact Bush ignored the criteria of the IWR and invaded anyway.

[IndieLeft]

70. YES it did. And we all know it.

You need to stop. Hillary was wrong. A president CANNOT authorize a war. That is the job of congress. Just because he says he can do something, does NOT mean he can.

...Well, if a president does it than that means it is not illegal.

Isn't that was Nixon said. It wasn't legal then, and it's not legal now.

I'm not blaming hillary for the entire war, but I do hold her responsible for her vote.

You need to do the same, and stop defending the indefensible.

[maddiejoan]

71. You are defending Bush

and excusing him of War Crimes.

Rove is grinning somewhere.

[IndieLeft]

76. Did I mention Bush? I don't think so.

You are very good at baiting people into saying stupid things. I've seen you get people booted off here by tricking them into saying stupid stuff. But I recognize your tactics, and I'm not falling for them.

Since you won't bother to defend her, then I assume you know whe was wrong to vote for it. Thank you.

[maddiejoan]

85. Distort much?

when have I ever gotten anyone 'booted' off anything?

and I have defended Clinton's decision.

[IndieLeft]

89. I don't think I'm supposed to say who it was

but it was the person you referred to as a ball of yarn...

you twisted what he was saying and got him to admit to something he did not mean. now that person is gone.

[maddiejoan]

94. Was it you?

If so --then I am glad.

[IndieLeft]

97. Um, No Maddie, I'm still here.

It was one of my friends. And, I'm sure you are glad.

[maddiejoan]

100. then your friend was a transphobe

Cos that's the only type of person I play like that.

and I notice you've only been here since January '08.

[IndieLeft]

103. No, he's not. He's really not.

You have no idea how "not transphobic" he is.

And that's all I have to say about that. You read one thing and you think you know someone... well you don't. And you need to remember that.

[Popol Vuh]

112. Wow! Just wow!

So if someone was transphobic and you sensed it, but, that person maintained proper conduct in his/her postings. Are you saying you feel justified in "baiting" that person to get them to respond in a way where they can get banned? If so. Wow! That is just so wrong. Granted, I am sure all of us here don't care for bigoted types but that doesn't give us the right to bait someone like that with the intent to get them banned.

Wow I am still shocked....

[IndieLeft]

113. He made a comment about anne coulter

you know the nick-name.

[Popol Vuh]

117. OMG that is nothing

IndieLeft, I am very sorry for you friend and hope he can be reinstated. I don't think that at all makes him a "transphobe". I think that nick-name is far less bigoted than the way illegal immigrant is used by some folks.

Seriously, I feel bad for your friend.

[maddiejoan]

116. The person started with a transphobic 'bait'

I didn't 'sense' anything'

[IndieLeft]

118. I don't beleive he did.

I think maybe you wanted to believe he did. I don't see how saying a woman looks like a man makes you transphobic. And quite frankly, i don't care.

Like I said, you don't know him. That is simply not the case.

[maddiejoan]

120. He was given ample opportunity

to apologize.

Instead he defended his right to use 'transexuality' as a form of insult based on similar insults from radio commentators.

[IndieLeft]

124. That's not true...

He didn't use transexuality as an insult. You said he did. AND, he DID apologize, over and over. You know he did.

I spent an hour on the phone with him. He kept on saying, he just didn't get it. He said he kept apologizing and people just kept yelling at him.

All for making a joke about Ann Coulter's adams apple.

okay, i could see if Anne was trangender, but she's not. And since she's not, it's not transphobic.

I'm not going to let you bait me into any more of this. I am done with this conversation.

[Popol Vuh]

121. Since I wasn't there

I can't pass judgment beyond the manner in which I've seen that nick-name used by many folks here. And I wouldn't call anyone of them transphobic for it. I can see how someone who was transgender might be offended, but, I've never seen that nick name used in the context of bigotry whatsoever toward anyone.

But like I said, I wasn't there so I can't really pass judgment on what happened in that particular case.

[maddiejoan]

123. I find that use

deeply troubling on a progressive forum.

and it always offends me.

[IndieLeft]

126. Self Delete

[NMMNG]

136. Ah geez, another one who doesn't get it

:eyes:

I suppose calling a straight person gay isn't homophobia either. :sarcasm:


:wtf: is it with these people anyway?

[IndieLeft]

125. Trust me, it was taken out of context.

I know the guy. And I know what was said. I read it. She twisted his intent and made it into something MUCH more than it was supposed to be.

She egged him on and on and on... pretending to not know what the name meant.

[Popol Vuh]

128. Based on what my experience

is of her, and, based on my experience with how I've always seen DU'ers use that nick-name. I am going to say that I'd be willing to bet that your friend was probably set-up and that is sad. He probably didn't mean anything harmful by it.

I feel bad for him...

[IndieLeft]

91. So you think she was right to vote for the IWR?

Is that what you are saying? Because anything short of that is not defending her. It's spinning.

[maddiejoan]

96. I don't live in a black and white world

sorry.

I think it was a bad vote. I also think a very understandable vote for a NY Senator in 2002.

[IndieLeft]

101. OMG! You admit it. Thank YOU! But I have a question.

It was a bad vote. And thank you for finally admitting that. Now, if we just get Clinton to do the same.

And yes, it must have been a hard decision, but there were people to get it right. And I'm not talking about Obama this time.

People who read the report got it right. Clinton admitted she didn't even read it. She said she was "extensively briefed"

You would hope that someone of her stature when it came to something THAT big, would have read it.

I do have one problem though... You said...

"I also think a very understandable vote for a NY Senator in 2002."

Why does that matter? That sounds like you are saying she did it for political reasons. Do you think a decision like that should be made for political reasons?

Thousands of Americans have died. A million innocent Iraqi's have died. millions more displaced. thousands upon thousands injured... For Politics?

[maddiejoan]

105. Clinton HAS admitted it was a bad vote.

She has said outright that given the situation, in hindsight she was mistaken to trust Bush.

I fail to see the difference between being full briefed and reading it.

I didn't say it was for political reasons. She had a duty to be in line with her constituency.
I've lived in NY all my life, and I know the thinking here at that time.

I, myself, did not agree with that thinking.

As I have said.

I don't defend her vote.

I UNDERSTAND her vote.

[IndieLeft]

109. Her constituents were wrong.

Let me preface...
I was so happy when she decided to officially run. I couldn't wait for her to be president. I figured she would take care of this country like a mother would her child. Now, I feel like we are her red headed step children.

Maddie, she has said everything BUT that. That may be what she means, but it's not what she is saying.

Yes, maybe it is petty, but I, like many people want to hear those words.

I made a mistake. I was wrong. I am sorry.

Own up to it. You want to prove a woman can be strong enough to run the country, act like it and just admit it without any BS spin.


Regardless of whether she was "duped" by the "dope" or not, it was still a bad decision, and rationalizing it by saying... it's really not my fault because I was tricked or misled reeks on insincerity.

She's not being accountable. She's not being honest. She's being calculating with the ONE issue that you CANNOT use for political prowess.

This is peoples lives we're talking about. It's not a political platform. It is wrong to use it as one. It is wrong for ANY candidate to use it as one.

[maddiejoan]

110. Then you would be happy

and she would lose the GE.

[IndieLeft]

114. NO, I don't think she would.

I think if she would have come out right away and just said it was a mistake, all would have been forgiven.

In fact, I think she would have thumped Obama. The only reason this is still an issue for her is because she has NOT been straight about it.

If she had been, right from the start, I know my opinion would be different.

[maddiejoan]

115. It worked so well for Kerry in the GE

[IndieLeft]

119. Kerry was an idiot. I voted for the war before I voted against it...

I'm not suggesting she make a fool out of herself by spitting out a pathetic phrase like that.

Kerry was trying to spin. I'm saying she should just be straight about it. People are very fogiving. That is one of the things I love most about this country.

But people don't forgive you when they think you are trying to play them for fools.

[karynnj]

133. Kerry never said that

You are thinking of a comment that was about voting on the funding - Kerry, who is more honest and straightforward than most politicians was not "spinning". HRC has already in the primary had as many problems as Kerry did in the primaries and general election.

[Popol Vuh]

129. Understandable how?

You wouldn't be suggesting that it was the best political thing to do at that time would you? Because if so then that puts Hillary's character in a place where she feels her political career is more important than hundreds or thousands of people's lives.

On the other hand if it wasn't based on politics then it shows what this thread is all about. That her judgment on these type issues is far lacking behind Obama's.

That's the gist of it, and what we're tying to point out.

[maddiejoan]

138. blah blah blah

if you haven't gotten my point yet --you never will.

[IndieLeft]

79. And you all notice, Maddie WILL NOT defend Clinton... just attacks Obama

That should tell you everything you need to know.

[maddiejoan]

82. and you notice

you are wrong --I haven't attacked Obama once in this thread --AND I have defended Clinton.

[IndieLeft]

86. So you are saying she was right? Right to authorize the IWR?

NO, you just said that bush would have done it anyway. If that's your idea of defending your candidate... I'm glad you're not an Obama supporter.

[maddiejoan]

88. I said

her vote (like all who voted Yay on the Democratic side) were voting to try and keep the inspectors in.

THAT was the purpose of the vote.

Bush yanked them out anyway and invaded.

[IndieLeft]

93. NO, that is NOT what they were voting for.

The were voting to use force in Iraq, as indicated in the TITLE of the report! How can you deny that? Seriosly. It's in PRINT!

Wow! Unbelievable. The ONLY people who believe that... no, nobody actually believes that. It's spin. That's all that is. It's spin.

[maddiejoan]

99. IF certain criteria was met

the criteria was NOT met.

ergo Bush is a fucking War Criminal.

[IndieLeft]

104. We do agree on that. Bush IS the consumate War Criminal.

And if they had any spines, his ass would be sitting in prison right now.

Pelosi... she was the worst choice for speaker we could have made. I knew that the second she said impeachment is off the table.

OMG, my stomache turns just thinking about that.

[maddiejoan]

106. Do you see how

you diminish Bush's responsability when you blame Democrats for their IWR vote?

The House and Senate was LIED to, and even then he totally disregarded the attempt at getting inspectors to stay (as represented by he IWR vote)

When you blame the Democrats who voted IWR --you lessen Bush's crime.

[IndieLeft]

111. No, I don't diminish his responsibility in this at all.

But I also refuse to diminish anyone else's either.

What has happened is completely deplorable. There is NO excuse for it. There is no excuse for anyone who voted for it either. NONE.

When it comes down to it, the right thing to do is still the right thing to do. It was horrible decision for any of them to make.

And I challenge the motives of every single one them for voting for it.

[Straight Shooter]

135. "When you blame the Democrats who voted IWR --you lessen Bush's crime."

The ones who blame the Dems only do so because it's easier to hound the Dems than it is to attack bush, who will escape accountability. Even Obama has admitted as much. He says it's no use to point fingers, that it's time to put it behind us, and move on.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/161/161_cover_obama_iraq.html

"Iraq was a major issue in last year's election. But that election is now over. We need to stop the campaign."

Here is what Obama contends is a practical solution to what ails U.S. policy in Iraq:

"The President could take the politics out of Iraq once and for all if he would simply go on television and say to the American people ‘Yes, we made mistakes. Yes, there are things I would have done differently. But now that we're here, I am willing to work with both Republicans and Democrats to find the most responsible way out.'"

It's not hard to satisfy Sen. Obama. If Bush would just stop repeating his lies to cover the fact that the Iraq war was premeditated, on the front-burner since his administration came to power, and therefore a crime against peace, well, we could all pretend like nothing criminal had happened - and was still happening."

[enough already]

84. Denial is not just a river in Egypt....

[IndieLeft]

95. It's unbelievable, isn't it?

How dare they, really. How dare they?

Using the war as a political talking point. It disgusts me. No... don't stick to the facts, spin EVERYTHING!

Anything to make Hillary less accountable.

It really is disgusting. Shameless. Unforgivable.

[Danger Mouse]

122. more rule breaking, eh?

rebel!

[IndieLeft]

62. It's only Freeper Spam if you don't support Hillary.

[fenriswolf]

6. awe c'mon maddie, its from the horses mouth.

[maddiejoan]

10. it's edited BS with a Bernard Herrman soundtrack

and posted twice already --by the same poster.

It's spam.

[Popol Vuh]

46. Spam?

and posted twice already --by the same poster.

Ah, yes, I accidentally posted in the General Discussions forum when I meant to post it here in the General Discussions Primaries forum. But I wouldn't hardly call that spam, especially since I selected to hide that accidental post so as I could move it here.

Really, it is you who is being "juvenile" here.

[maddiejoan]

48. Why not post a real comparison

instead of a juvenile piece of crap editing done in iMovie?

[Popol Vuh]

57. You saying that video showing

what difference in judgment with respect to Iraq just a couple weeks apart from each other back in 2002 isn't a "real comparison"? It seems to me that the only comparison you'll be happy with is one that allows Hillary's hind-sight to be used in comparison with Obama's judgment all along.

[maddiejoan]

59. I'm saying it's edited

cherry picked --and the "psycho" soundtrack is juvenile.

[Popol Vuh]

69. I'll give you

that the few second psycho track dubbed in is juvenile, but, that doesn't change the point being made - which is the difference in judgment. Despite what you might think, the end results of what happened back at that time in comparisons between these two makes anything else you would wish to add as not substantiative toward this point.

I am sorry but that's the facts.

[maddiejoan]

73. Obama never denounced the IWR vote

and in fact has stated quite clearly that he has no idea how he would have voted had he been in the Senate.

Hillary's speech on the IWR is just as anti-invasion as Obama's.

Their respective and subsequent votes on continued funding of the Occupation of Iraq are identical.

[IndieLeft]

78. I'm sorry, but did he not come out against it before the vote?

Yeah, I thought so. You can coulda woulda shoulda all you want.

The FACT is that he was against it when it counted. Hillary... Not so much.

Again, can you defend her decision?

[maddiejoan]

81. I guess

because I UNDERSTAND her decision.

[IndieLeft]

92. NO, there is no guessing. He DID come out and speak against it.

That is a FACT. You can get the video on YouTube at will. Just as you can get the video of her speech to authorize the Iraq war.

Those are facts Maddie. They are not subject to interpretation. They are not up for debate. Those are FACTS.

[enough already]

132. How does one 'understand' someone voting to kill hundreds of thousands of innocents?

How do you people trying to spin that vote sleep at night?

[mopinko]

108. see my post #107 nt

[Popol Vuh]

87. So now he's suppose to actually "denounce"

the IWR vote in order to qualify his already stated position? LOL Really C'mon now who is being juvenile about this?

And with respect to Obama's vote being the same as Hillary's on funding. I will admit that any Dem (him included) should of not voted to continue funding. But to continue funding our troops Vs voting to start this dumb war in the first place are comparisons that can't be used because when troops are already there and need money it puts another aspect on the subject that has to be addressed. You certainly can't just stop supplying troops in harm's way now can you? Especially since the commander and chief was stating that he wasn't going to pull out regardless.

[maddiejoan]

102. Considering

that's the only difference between Hillary and Obama on Iraq?

why yes.

[IndieLeft]

74. Here you go Maddie... Unedited FULL SPEECH... All of it.

Please, stop defending her for this. She was wrong. It's not all her fault, and I don't hear anyone saying it is. But she bares part of the blame.


Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wyCBF5CsCA&feature=related

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8fknhbB-Xo&feature=related

[IndieLeft]

67. Maddie, we've all seen the whole clip.

I can get it for you, Unedited if you like. It is WIDELY available on YouTube.

You are fighting a losing battle here.

[Hutzpa]

33. Maddie does have a point,

posting over and over shows freeper tendencies.

Once should be enough, find another way to make your point.

I'm beginning to have another :think: about this poster.

[IndieLeft]

83. I think if Clinton supporters would admit she bares SOME responsibility...

You wouldn't see these threads.

The fact is that every time you bring it up, all they do is change the subject.

I have yet to see ONE stick to the point. They always change the subject, and come back with something about Obama.

Well, wrong is wrong. Clinton was wrong, and the sooner people are able to admit that to themselves, the sooner we can move on.

[Hutzpa]

90. I was actually responding to

the accusation of him being a troll, must admit I feel for that too....:silly: me
should have known better.

I guess he made a very good point.

[11 Bravo]

38. Actually, it's from the other end of the horse.

[Bonobo]

2. It's the truth. Kick.

[Popol Vuh]

4. At the very least

It sure says a lot about judgment doesn't it. Who has it and who doesn't have it.


:dem:

[maddiejoan]

20. It's juvenile BS

complete with the "Psycho" soundtrack.

If Popol Vuh wishes to be taken seriously, he/she can make a serious post,

[lligrd]

26. It Is Not BS At All

It is the reason so many of us support Obama. Hillary's support of the IWR is the number one reason.

[maddiejoan]

30. Then you don't understand the vote

"My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world."

[ingac70]

34. She knew damn well Bush's intent...

all those assholes in his Admin. sent letters to her husband begging him to invaed Iraq.

[maddiejoan]

36. Bush would have invaded

with or without IWR.

[ingac70]

42. Then she didn't need to authorize that with her vote.

and he would be the only one with blood on his hands.

[maddiejoan]

44. IWR was an effort to keep the inspectors in

[ingac70]

47. And an authorization to use force.

[maddiejoan]

50. IF certain criteria was met

Bush did not meet the criteria established in IWR.

[ingac70]

53. That was in the failed Levin Amendment...

which Hillary vote NO on.

The Levin Amendment

Urged to U.N. Security Council to adopt a resolution demanding that Iraq grant immediate and unconditional access to U.N. weapons inspectors. Authorized U.S. use of force only if Iraq failed to comply with the U.N. resolution. Sponsored by Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI)

Defeated 24 - 75.

[maddiejoan]

55. I'm not comfortable

with us handing our authority as a Nation over to the UN.

The fact is the Levin Amendment was not needed.

Bush is the one who went AGAINST the IWR.

Blaming the passage of IWR on Bush's invasion of a sovereign nation is to excuse Bush from his War Crimes.

[ingac70]

60. The IWR gave him permission..

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c107:5:./temp/~c107v1DuPh::

To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and

(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.

[maddiejoan]

64. Bush didn't meet that criteria

[ingac70]

72. Hillary might get somewhere if she tried to used that argument...

but strangely she doesn't.

[maddiejoan]

75. Then I should be her campaign manager

instead of Penn.

[ingac70]

77. Call her up...

you could only help. Because that is not the argument she gives when defending that hideous vote.

[IndieLeft]

127. That's not what it did.

Levin was VERY clear about that.

Clinton is just saying that is what it would have done.

Personally, I prefer to believe the person who actually sponsored the amendment.

[lligrd]

37. You Mean, Then She Didn't Understand The Vote

I knew exactly what the vote meant and I was right.

[Popol Vuh]

40. So what you are saying is:

It is BS and juvenile to show the difference in judgment with something as serious as committing to war? I wonder how juvenile the mothers, the spouses and children of those killed in this "dumb war" feel it is?

If maddiejoan wishes to be taken seriously, she can start by realizing how serious an issue like the Iraq war is instead of choosing to minimize it.

Seriously, you think the Iraq war and all it has cost is a juvenile subject to discuss?

[maddiejoan]

45. I think the video

you posted was juvenile and doesn't tell the full story.

[Popol Vuh]

54. Full story?

Which is what? Because the video makes it clear that the show Meet the Press is illustrating who had better judgment. Period.

To try and inject that Hillary has in hindsight changed her mind does nothing to illustrate her "judgment".

[maddiejoan]

56. Play her full speech on the Senate floor

without the "psycho' soundtrack then.

Here's a link to her full speech.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4329338&mesg_id=4329338

[Popol Vuh]

61. I already read it and saw it.

But thank you anyway.

Now how does that change the fact that her judgment was to vote for the war and Obama's judgment at the same time was that we shouldn't go to war in Iraq and to do so would be dumb?

[maddiejoan]

66. IWR was not a vote to go to War

[ingac70]

3. K&R.

[MethuenProgressive]

8. All who think Bush started his Iraq war only becuase Clinton voted for IWR are fooling themselves.

Spamming for Obama, Duh?

[Popol Vuh]

16. Did anybody say Bush started his Iraq war

only because of Clinton? Anybody thinking such a thing is fooling "themselves".

n/t

[newmajority]

17. No, Clinton wasn't the only one who voted for the illegal bullshit war.

But she IS the only one who voted for the illegal bullshit war who is currently running for the Democratic Party nomination to be President of the United States.

[PassingFair]

32. To be fair, not just Clinton voted for it...

Lieberman voted for it too.

[NightWatcher]

9. Obama's words.

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

[maddiejoan]

14. where does he denounce

the IWR vote?

Hillary made a speech like that on the Senate Floor before her vote. 16 days before Obama.

[NightWatcher]

25. a couple paragraphs down

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not -- we will not -- travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php


I think he's leaning away from trowing his support behind the war

[maddiejoan]

29. Doesn't answer my question

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

"...use these powers wisely AND as a LAST RESORT."





http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4329338&mesg_id=4329338

[enough already]

139. So your point is that Hillary trusted Bush to do the right thing?

You're probably not helping her cause at this point.

[mopinko]

39. got that backwards. obama's speech- 10-02. iwr vote, 10-11

couldn't very well denounce something that hasn't happened.
hit the rest of it right on the head, tho. saying things in public that the folks here at du, as well as 20M worldwide, were screaming in the streets. guess "your girl" had her fingers in her ears- la la la la.

[maddiejoan]

43. No

Clinton's speech - 10 October on Senate Floor

Obama's speech - 26 October 2002 at an anti-war rally in Chicago

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

[mopinko]

107. no, that speech was given on 10-02-2002

just like it says on his website. here is a link to another cite.
http://www.noiraqwar-chicago.org/
most of the way down the page.
i trust you will correct yourself.

[mopinko]

141. i see you still have not corrected yourself.

well?

[uberblonde]

130. Why does he continue to vote to FUND this "dumb war"?

That's what I want to know. Sounds to me like he wants it both ways - and people seem to be going along with it.

[Popol Vuh]

131. I myself addressed that earlier

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4522893&mesg_id=4524392

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

12. Yep, that slice of truth sums it up nicely.

:thumbsup:

[jmg257]

13. Obama = Nostradamus? Almost scary how accurately he nailed Iraq.

[Debi]

18. K & R

:kick:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democrat2thecore]

21. That's just plain baremetal contrast - sums it all up. -nt

[lligrd]

22. Dumb Wars - Perfect

How is it that Obama knew what so many of us here knew but Clinton couldn't figure it out?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. Thank you for posting this link

I hadn't heard their words on the IWR before, especially back to back like this. As someone who was out on the protest lines in the winter of early '03, I can tell you that, to us at least, it was obvious that a vote for the IWR would lead directly to war; Bush was salivating for it. It was also obvious that it would result in a quagmire and be catastrophic. Now how come a member of the Illinois General Assembly and a handful of old fogies in the Arkansas Ozarks could figure this out when a sitting US Senator from New York couldn't?

[Popol Vuh]

28. Thank you

After posting another video where I said it shows "apparent" crimes, but, was unaware of other information. I felt compelled to try and redeem myself on what I know for certain.


:dem:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

49. I know you to be a person of honor

so your actions do not surprise me in the least.

Namaste.

[Popol Vuh]

98. Thank you ayeshahaqqiqa

And its always good to see you. Certainly different here than over in the other section of DU we post in huh?

:)

[Hepburn]

27. K&R!

:kick:

[K Gardner]

31. "Disarm or be disarmed" versus a Rationale Statement of Opposition. K&R

[ingac70]

35. Another video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS9y5t0tR0

For those that don't like the music. :evilgrin:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

41. "Squawk! I'm A Parrot!" "Squawk! IWR IWR" "Squawk! She Voted She Voted IWR IWR" "Squawk"

[TexasObserver]

52. Why does video of Hillary hate Hillary?!

loved the bit of RAGE at the end with Zach telling it like a true progressive does

[Quixote1818]

80. K and R

[Thrill]

134. OUCH. I never saw that

[Skip Intro]

137. HA! She says, "Well Tim, let's put this in context" and the video tunes out.

another bullshit thread

[Popol Vuh]

140. And?

What else is there to say? "Lets put this in context" only means you're about to hear political spin doctoring that doesn't change the fact that she said what she said on the Senate floor and voted the way she voted. Others have put up her entire Senate floor speech and Obama's entire statement and it doesn't change the context of this thread.

Its a major accountability problem for Hillary because how so many of us Democrats feel about those who authorized this war.