OK, I may be slow, but I get it. You've had your fun.

[Sapphocrat]

The "I'm voting for Obama because he's sexy / he's cool / I want a rock star" threads are all a joke -- from, I expect The Site That Shall Not Be Named.

I refuse to believe so many people -- especially young people, who I grant are much quicker on the uptake than I am, being so well informed by the Internet their entire lives -- could possibly be so dense and so shallow.

So, from now on, I will take all those "You don't get it, because you're OLD / WHITE / STUPID / whatever" posts for exactly what they are: a really bad joke at the expense of us Hillary supporters.

Well done. You really made fools out of us, sucking us into this idiocy.

As for you Obama supporters who don't belong to the troll fellowship that's making you all look like morons, I suggest that if you can't rein them in, you hunt them down and expose them, before the rest of the world lumps you in with them.

The MSM has already set its sights on the "cult label"; if you want to stem the tide before it sweeps you way too, you'd best show these trolls up, ASAP.

It ain't my job, kids. It's up to you.

[liberal N proud]

1. Thank you

:applause:

[Sapphocrat]

4. No sweat, lNp.

My silly willingness to give everyone the benefit of the doubt just made me take a little longer to figure it out. :)

[susankh4]

184. I feel the same way....

for so many years I hoped that young people would get involved in the political process. I saw it as a boon for the Dem. party.

I raised my own three children to be invloved. They all are. Very much so.

But, the ageism surrounding this Obama cult is really discouraging. I really believe many of these folks would vote for ANYONE who looks young and appears in rap videos. There is little evidence of them weighing the issues.

As someone who has waited my whole life to see real progress toward the ideals of the democratic party made... I feel this election being stolen out from under me. And I am not sure, yet, who the mastermind stealing it is. It will come out sooner or later, I guess.

I am hanging in there. Hoping for a miracle...... demanding that Ms. Clinton be on the ticket, even if it is as VP. I want to know I am sending someone to DC that can stand the heat, and will fight for me. For the rights of my gay son. For universal health care. For the expansion of medicaid and the protection of medicare.

I want to know that my country is safe, even as we do make progress on the homefront. Gen. Wesley Clark has convinced me that Senator Clinton is the one who can do this.....

But, alas, we are about to elect a junior senator who talks pretty. And despite his enormous potential... Senator Obama has simply not demnstrated the kind of leadership we need in these complex times. Voting "present" doesn't count in my book. Making speeches about the Iraq war..... nope, not enough.

I am beginning to feel like giving up.

[Sapphocrat]

5. No sweat, lNp.

My silly willingness to give everyone the benefit of the doubt just made me take a little longer to figure it out. :)

[Gloria]

133. Ditto!!

[Adelante]

2. Yet another lecture for the "kids"

Thanks, Mom :hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. They ain't kiddin' when they say "GOMAMA"

Finger-wagging as an art form. :-)

[Sapphocrat]

92. You should talk.

(Old-)Ageism is the least of your offenses lately.

[NMMNG]

191. Don't you have some widows to abuse?

:eyes:

[GalleryGod]

24. ROFLMAO, Wes!

For Her!

All the way to Denver...

[ClericJohnPreston]

54. You see

your first mistake was giving any Obamites the benefit of the doubt. Extend a hand, in this case a "metaphorical excuse", and the trolls you suspect are children, are really well respected and fully complicit, elements of orthodox Obamites on this site. Some of the worst offenders are littering your post above mine, such as Wes Dem, Alcibiades_Mystery and the hyperbolic, so-called Political Science Professor ( what I would have been if I didn't get my legal degree ), Gallery God.

These people are beyond hope. Period. They are true believers, zealots all the way!

[Bongo Prophet]

166. You keep adding to the rancor, and keep trying to convince us to hate each other. Why is that?

There will always be some who never quite get it.
But the name calling does. not. help.

You have a legal degree. Great.
I should assume therefore that you have a very quick and agile mind.
I will further assume, for the moment, that you want dems to win the general.

You know that a committed, activist base brings in a lot of votes, and that group solidarity is a great motivator in getting the activists out.
Why would you work SO HARD to alienate that base?

It makes no sense to me.
Can you explain why you have attacked long time DUers so relentlessly in the few weeks you have been here?
Why you would constantly call them names, and try to encourage others to shun them?
What the hell is up with a great legal mind such as yours, engaging in such puerile behavior?
We may need them in the general, and you work against that.
I prefer, as the OP suggests, that we try to change minds and attitudes, not drive wedges.
Driving wedges is what the trolls do.

there is only ONE way this makes sense to me, but I really want to give you benefit of the doubt.
You next answer may say a lot.

[Hekate]

180. Alert his butt. I've got whoever he is on Iggy. nt

[Bongo Prophet]

182. i try to ignore no one. funny, the few that I have got tombstoned before long anyway.

Maybe that means I have a nose for that, like a netroots Van Helsing.;)

I try to give people a chance at redemption.
This is #2

and like the apple commercial said...sometimes...
"there is no number 3"

[Sapphocrat]

91. Anytime, kid.

Funny how the real kids take "kid" as an insult, but those of us old fogies who could practically kiss a cocktail server for carding us "get" it. :hi:

[liberal N proud]

3. Thank you

:applause:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

6. The idiots "over there" have been on a tear as of late.

They're probably pissed off because Cynthia McKinney isn't going to be our nominee because invisible jewish elves control the voting machines and the media with mind control earthquake-inducing lasers.

[MagickMuffin]

188. So, you think election fraud is an illusion

Maybe you need a reality check. Cynthia McKinney did experience election fraud. Why you would make some underhanded joke about tells me everything I need to know about you.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

189. No, Cynthia McKinney lost the runoff...

...due to a combination of redistricting and the fact that she's a whackjob. Claiming election fraud with no evidence in a case where a clearly troubled candidate who was predicted to lose did in fact lose is silly. But it's exactly what we've come to expect from McKinney and her supporters.

[bicentennial_baby]

7. Interesting...

[golddigger]

8. K&R...n/t

:applause:

[golddigger]

9. Dupe, self delete.

[calico1]

11. Good post.

I have to keep reminding myself that a lot of Obama supporters are smart, thinking, mature people that just support a different candidate than I do. With all the threads and posts like the ones you mention it is sometimes hard to do, so I must keep saying to myself they are not all like that.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I keep trying to tell myself that,

but DU has turned into anarchy because of them.

[Bongo Prophet]

174. I like the irony of your anarchy avatar and complaining of DU turning into anarchy.

it made me laugh, and I needed that.

not all anarchies are created equal, that's for sure! :hi:

[susankh4]

185. I am trying...

to stay positive as well.

I do know smart people who support this candidate. Hell, *I* was one of them! I've wanted a Clinton/Obama ticket since 2004.

I am just disappointed to see the political process take this turn, toward charisma over knowledge. I shoulda known, I guess. I shoulda seen it coming.....

[LostinVA]

12. k&r

[LostinVA]

13. k&r

[Buzz Clik]

14. Anyone taking seriously posts or threads in GD-P has lost their way.

This forum has become an institution for those with no perspective, and that will not be changing soon.

[Sapphocrat]

69. I kick myself for expecting it to be a temporary situation.

You've been here almost as long as I have, Buzz -- you remember when DU consisted of A) substantive posts on real issues, and B) substantive replies to the OP.

Whatever this has turned into, it sure isn't DU anymore.

[Bongo Prophet]

176. I hope you are wrong - we can do better, though trolls and jerks will always be among us.

The admin changes should help the spam posting a little, and make disrupters have to work a bit more.

Even a 30-50% reduction would make this place better.
Have you noticed the increase in more thoughtful posts, or several pleas for better behavior in the last 2-3 weeks?

I have, after months of monitoring and diplomatic efforts -- some traction.
Trends don't happen by themselves.

Every clothing store doesn't decide on the same set of colors for the spring line by accident.
Keep watching, and maybe make some moves yourself, or get a small group of DU buddies to play whack-a-troll.
I would gladly read some of your longer posts, Buzz Clik.

[Buzz Clik]

15. Anyone taking seriously posts or threads in GD-P has lost their way.

This forum has become an institution for those with no perspective, and that will not be changing soon.

[Buzz Clik]

16. Anyone taking seriously posts or threads in GD-P has lost their way.

This forum has become an institution for those with no perspective, and that will not be changing soon.

[Buzz Clik]

22. Good gawd.

According to the messages popping up, none of these posted.

And now it's too late to delete the dupes.

:cry: :blush:

[intheflow]

100. There was a glitch in the system this morning.

Yours are not the only post in triplicate today by any means. Thankfully, it's fixed now.

[GalleryGod]

26. I think you have a "sticky key" ???

For HER !!

[DemBones DemBones]

17. You know, all this

"Boomers need to get out of the way" is pretty damn funny since Obama himself is a Boomer.

Obooma

:evilgrin:

[theHandpuppet]

18. Here's another funny...

All the folks bitching and moaning about being tired of "political royalty" and wanting to shed the country of a few families wielding political power generation after generation sure didn't seem to mind when a few of those Kennedys came out to endorse Obama. There's change for ya!

(And I have great respect for Ted myself.)

[DemBones DemBones]

21. Good point! Not to mention that

it is totally unfair to compare the possibility of Hillary Rodham Clinton becoming president to the Bush father-son dynasty. Hillary Rodham is only related to Bill Clinton by marriage, after all, and was forced by political reality to start using his name when he was governor of Arkansas. Bill Clinton did not raise Hillary Rodham, as Poppy and Bar raised W.

To say that a woman doesn't deserve to be president because she happened to marry a man who became president earlier is to deny Hillary Rodham her autonomy as a human being.

Bill has said he thought she ought to run for office earlier but she would have had no chance. Many of us remember what happened to Geraldine Ferraro and Shirley Chisholm and you can be sure that Hillary knows it even more strongly and learned from it.

It is sad to see the always beneath the surface sexism and ageism at DU ballooning out in support of a younger man.

[Straight Shooter]

23. I have been raising the point of the blood vs. marriage dynasty issue, also.

Followed by absolutely no comment from those against it. I was whispering into a howling storm of outrage against Hillary.

In addition, why should Democrats be the one to break the chain? It always takes right wingers longer to notice a pattern. If we elect Hillary, it may actually dawn on them that there is a continuum of familial relationship in our presidency. If we abandon her on the premise of shunning dynasty, they will have absolutely no problem electing another bush (and there's a very charismatic one in their bunch right now), because we will have cleared the slate for them and made it all right.

The Democrats will take the high road by breaking the chain, and we will be punished for our "good deed."

[DemBones DemBones]

28. Good. I hadn't seen it raised before, have been MIA lately,

tired of the anarchy here.

Democrats ought to be saying this a lot: it is unfair to penalize someone because their spouse formerly held public office. Especially when the spouse being discussed is a woman.

Historically, women have had to follow their husbands in getting elected and for most of the twentieth century, the only way women got into Congress, either House or Senate, was by the death of their husband. Governors traditionally offered the office to the widow when a man died in office. Some went on to be re-elected on their own merits.

I think that some people here would be arguing against Eleanor Roosevelt if she were alive. Some men are just threatened by strong women. Previously, I thought those men were all conservatives. . .

[theHandpuppet]

32. There have been some unbelievably vile, sexist posts on GD lately

It's been driving me nuts. The worst one this morning questioned whether Hillary was a real woman, whether she was taking steroids, said that no one would want her as a mother, etc etc.

Oh no -- misogyny is not exclusive to the conservative crowd.

[LostinVA]

46. My new, personal "favorite"

"Misspelling" Clinton as "Cliton." It's oh -- so funny.

[avrdream]

119. Hadn't seen that one.

See how they make it all about sex? Guess Barack isn't hot enough for them.

To the OP: agree completely with you but I have been slogging along, trying to put in a few intellectual points. Unfortunately, threads I support seem to drop off pretty damned fast. Thanks for your good points.

[NMMNG]

105. Let that be a lesson for you

They'll turn on you like rabid dogs and use every vile trick in the book (including RW memes) if it helps their dear Obama.

[Bongo Prophet]

173. This is well put, and much shorter than I could have done it.

This was an "issue" before it got adopted by many Obama supporters - I guess it is to be expected that those who felt that way would only have one place to go, once Edwards suspended. The Obama supporters for whom that is not an issue, or low on a list of concerns, would not be included in this, of course.
(note: I almost said "dropped out" instead of suspended, but changed to not offend Edwards supporters. ya gotta be the change ya want to happen!)

The age thing is something that pops up a lot as well, and both younger and older folks than I got really caught up in it.
Outside of job and housing discrimination, where it is a real pressing issue, I see that as either a childish diversion, OR...
(dons tinfoil, but at a jaunty angle)...yet another attempt at divide and conquer.

Who benefits by dividing old and young, by the resentment of paying social security while thinking you will never get yours?

But I must set that aside for now.

Good post, DBDB.

[NMMNG]

58. Indeed

The cognitive dissonance must be frying their brains. They hate boomers but love Obama and Ted Kennedy. They hate "entitlement" but think but think they're supposed to be given the nation to run by virtue of their age group--and anybody who doesn't get out of the way will be shoved. They whine about ageism then turn around and engage in it against others. Etc, etc.

[Gloria]

134. Yeah, the "character" bit made me laugh....JFK was womanizing

all over the place and his bio said his behavior was "risky" re: the mob connections of his girlfrind; Bobby wasn't faithful....Caroline talking about character made me think they're all just trying to rev up their family myth again...

[Raejeanowl]

153. More Than A Touch Of Irony There

Don't you think? Represents everything they claim to despise and want to preclude from happening again, but oh so handy for an endorsement.

[BigBearJohn]

169. tee hee heeh "Obooomer"

[BigBearJohn]

170. tee hee heeh "Obooomer"

[BigBearJohn]

171. .

[BigBearJohn]

172. dupe

[Cameron27]

20. Who in their right mind

admits that over 90% of their support of Obama stems from his good looks? and starts a thread about it? It makes your brain hurt to read this shit.

[GalleryGod]

25. Speaking for myself...

All the way to Den-ver!

Your Man in the Faculty Lounge:hangover: ,
GG:smoke:

[ClericJohnPreston]

56. You're totally

off your rocker. What school would hire you as a poli sci prof? Some Community College perhaps?

You so graciously prove that the OP is wrong to extend a hand to your zealotry ilk. You define the TYPICAL Obama supporter, not the exception.

Drink a little too much coffee, or forget to take your lithium today? Better watch that manic streak....

[NMMNG]

61. I see you're replying to "Ignored"

Given the content of your reply "Ignored" was ranting with the typical rabid (logical content free) fervor that caused me to put them on Ignore in the first place.

Excellent rebuttal, BTW.

[Buzz Clik]

27. Nobody? Did that happen here?

:shrug:

[NMMNG]

63. Don't just read the OP, read the whole thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=


Especially the part where she says that his looks are 97% of why she's voting for him.

[enough already]

29. Let me guess...you walked 10 miles to school every day...in the snow....uphill both ways.

If anyone in the Democratic party is part of a 'cult', it is the lemmings who can somehow support the candidate of war and Wal-Mart.

[TexasObserver]

30. Oh, but they do like to dress it up as outrage, OUTRAGE, I tell You!

More of the same from the Crying Game.

[NashVegas]

33. 1600 Posts In Less Than Two Weeks - WOW

How'd you do it?

[nonconformist]

83. Good God.

Nice catch.

[NashVegas]

89. So Far

Over 60 today, alone. And actually, less than two weeks.

[Donnachaidh]

115. think someone is getting ten cents a post perhaps?

That seems to be the brag rate for some of the more rabid freep sites. 1600 in less than two weeks is a four letter word that begins with an *S* :evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

34. What do you mean by the "Crying Game"?

Especially having the term capitalized?

[terrya]

35. Nevermind

Not worth it.

[LostinVA]

37. ?????

[terrya]

39. .

I made a snarky observation about the person who posted that "Crying Game" comment. He/she isn't worth it. That's what the edit was about.

[TexasObserver]

40. How about a "Bitter Tears" reference? INXS tune that seems appropriate.

Especially the analogy of the Clinton Campaign to the untimely death of the lead singer of INXS.

[racaulk]

53. .

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

43. I Think It's a Campaign Staffer

Or someone otherwise directly involved in organizing, who's purposefully using DU. I think the admins should charge them for advertising, frankly.

[okasha]

138. Ah, yes.

The sophomore who claims he worked on Ann Richards' 1982 campaign.

Apparently he's failing math, among other subjects.

[racaulk]

51. I'm with you, I don't think that was accidental.

A tongue-in-cheek transphobic jab, if you ask me.

I've seen this guy post a whole bunch of jokes about crying when talking about Clinton. No substance, just cheap insults. He's a one trick pony.

This is the same guy that put me on ignore last week for using the "eyes" smiley. No doubt he has you on ignore too, which is why you're not getting an answer.

[LostinVA]

57. Ah -- you're right

The "eyes" thing.

:eyes:

Yup, not at all accidential, imo.

[NMMNG]

129. Probably nobody is getting an answer

Because the poster is just being a complete jerk and hurting people for the fun of it rather than trying to engage in actual discourse. That seems to be par for the course here lately.

[Sapphocrat]

108. I can't see the post you're replying to...

...but a "Crying Game" reference tells me a lot. Jesus.

[LostinVA]

123. Yeah, it's pretty obvious your user name and avatar

are being mocked.

See what happens when you become one of "them" (ie HRC supporter)? You're demonized, and ANY insult against you is fair game. It's been an eye-opener for me.

[Sapphocrat]

124. Good Lord.

I've heard lots of dumb remarks about my username before -- but for someone to actually mock a picture of a doomed homosexual prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp...?!

:wow:

[LostinVA]

126. You're apparently as weird and funny as Dill in the "Crying Game"

[Sapphocrat]

127. I only hope multiple people -- onn both sides -- have alerted on that.

The hackles on my neck are way up for our trans friends who were used to bash me.

Disgusting.

But, I guess, a perfect illustration of my OP.

[LostinVA]

128. Well

I did, hours ago.

[TankLV]

140. My mouth is agape - I just alerted on them...

astounding...

[racaulk]

193. I alerted also, Sapphocrat.

Disgusting. :puke:

[susankh4]

186. I just think they don't get it....

and, again, I feel very sad right now. That our opportunity to make real progress this next 8 years is being usurped by ... who knows who?

Who *is* behind this cult of the MSM?

[Arugula Latte]

31. ...and get off her lawn!

Damn kids!

No respect for entrenched Bush-appeasing pro-IWR establishment candidates these days, I tell ya!

[TexasObserver]

41. "Don't trust anyone over 30!!" That's what these Hill fans said 40 years ago.

Irony is such a bitch!!

[readmoreoften]

50. Just because Obama despises Baby Boomers doesn't mean that Hillary supporters are in that bracket.

But stereotypes fit in well for people who respond to sound bites. I'm ashamed that you're from my state.

[NMMNG]

181. I was an egg cell 40 years ago

Or rather, half of me was.

You should put down that broad-brush. It must be heavy.

[Sapphocrat]

80. Let me guess...

You go suddenly blind and deaf whenever anyone brings up Obama's deep devotion to capitalism, which he calls "our greatest asset."

I'd tell you all about the way Obama thinks individual freedom is an "intoxicating danger," and his Straussian determination to maintain "rank and an inherited social order," but the rupture in your fragile bubble of cognitive dissonance would make your head explode.

[Jamastiene]

147. For the record, it is possible to walk to school in the snow...

uphill both ways and some people still do that to this day. Just take a look-see in America in places all over including in some parts of the Appalachian Mountains. If your candidate bothered ever read up on real issues, he'd know that and so would you. The title "elitist" does seem to fit your post. You are so unaware of the reality for so many people in this country. You should really read up on the extreme poverty in this country. Yeah, Wal Mart is all some of us have and it's all some of us can afford. Deal with it. We have no choice. You do, obviously. How does it feel to be so elite and privileged?

[NMMNG]

187. Don't mind that one

He's got serious issues. :hug:

[NashVegas]

36. Sapph

You gotta use the ignore button - liberally. That's what it comes to.

[Sapphocrat]

67. Believe me, Crisco...

...half the replies in this thread appear to have been posted by someone called Ignored.

Still, I see another four or five I'm about to wish away into the cornfield.

[NMMNG]

110. I've got at least 20 people on Ignore

The most obnoxious ones, starting with the spambots and then the attack dogs. But if I included too many people threads would be little more than "Ignored" all down the line sometimes.

[Jamastiene]

148. Only 20?

I've probably wracked up about 100 over the past 2 weeks alone.

[NMMNG]

150. I just counted and I'm up to 50 as of this moment

But the list keeps growing.

[Jamastiene]

157. I see mine as my garden now.

The bullshit keeps it well fertilized and there certainly is no drought in these troubling times. :eyes:

[NMMNG]

164. Mine is a migraine preventive medication

Anyone with migraines knows that's like gold.

[Jamastiene]

165. I know what you mean.

I have them too sometimes. Migraines can bring us to our knees.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Heh.

Heh heh heh.

Hee hee hee hee hee.

Ha ha ha ha.

HA HA HA HA HA HA! *snort*

ZOMG! ROFLMAO!

[DS1]

42. I love having words put into my mouth, or the mouths of people I align myself with

I've never seen a "sexy / he's cool / I want a rock star" post. Sorry, I'm not buying the rest of your seemingly unsubstantiated complaint.

[LostinVA]

48. There was at least one last week

I was barely on DU most of the weekend, so I have no idea about after that.

[DS1]

49. I've just grown tired of ~both~ sides doing the "I saw one, so there must be dozens"

approach. It's really tiresome.

[NMMNG]

65. Here's one for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4452319


If you haven't seen others you haven't been looking.

[LostinVA]

68. Know what's interesting?

Both myself and mentalsolstice posted in that thread -- hmmm.....

[Sapphocrat]

75. Then you need to get your vision checked.

Although I'm not sure there's a prescription for "selective focus."

[DS1]

79. Pot, meet kettle.

Your entire argument is based on selective focus, which is why it's receiving these reactions.

[Sapphocrat]

82. Wheat, meet chaff.

The negative reactions here are perfect illustrations of what I'm saying.

What amazes me is how some of the last people I was even thinking of showed up here, brimming with indignance and faux outrage.

If it doesn't apply to you, and you don't see it in others, why struggle so mightily to defend yourself? Sounds like a guilty conscience.

[DS1]

84. No, no guilty conscience here.

It's the "one = many" arguments that grow so tiresome here.

Some troll calls Hillary a bitch and suddenly all or most Obama supporters think Hillary is a bitch. It's really quite ridiculous, and as a DUer of 6 years, you should know better than base judgments on trolls.

[Sapphocrat]

97. Then isn't it in your own best interest...

...to root out the trolls?

Look, I didn't phone Krugman (and the LAT and every other MSM outlet) and put a bug in their ear to start writing about the "cultish" aspect of blind Obama worship. If it's that apparent to the MSM, Obama supporters as a whole have a big problem: the trolls are giving you ALL a bad name.

Am I being a "concern troll" for Obama supporters? Hell, no. My motive for trying to push you into rooting out the trolls is two-fold: 1) I'm sick of what little potential "discussion" there is left around here being drowned out by this shit, and 2) if Obama supporters as a whole are being made to look bad to the outside world, then by extension ALL Democrats look bad. And "ALL Democrats" includes Hillary supporters. And "Hillary supporters" includes me.

For all I know, the worst offenders could easily be Republican shills trying to drown out Hillary supporters, because they believe they can't beat Hillary in November, but they can beat Obama. Or maybe they believe they can't beat Obama, but they can beat Hillary -- in which case if they make the Obama supporters look bad enough, they'll create a backlash against Obama that will result in Hillary's nomination.

I have no idea -- but I still refuse to believe, as I said in my OP, that so many Obama supporters are really as dense and shallow as they appear (pretend) to be.

Which is another thing -- not one Obama supporter has noticed that in my OP, I'm saying I do NOT believe all Obama supporters are dense and shallow -- just the obvious trolls, which, you admit, exist.

I am asking -- no, begging -- you to consider the possible source(s) of the vilest spew coming out of some* alleged Obama supporters here, and then do something about it. They're not going to listen to me or any other HRC supporter.

* I have to use "some," and you know it. You know perfectly well I cannot call out individual DUers -- unless they've already been TS'd, and then there's no point.

[DS1]

101. I do call out trolls bashing Hillary

but I guess you miss that.

[Sapphocrat]

104. In the tidal wave of garbage around here, no doubt I have missed that.

And if it didn't exist, you wouldn't have to call out Hillary-bashing trolls in the first place.

[hedgehog]

44. Maybe Obama fans just have a weird sense of humor.

I can't tell you how many times I have left off the :sarcasm: tag because I thought I was being over-the-top obvious, only to have someone take me seriously!

[Freetospeak]

45. Thank you!

[beachmom]

47. Sounds like you're just making stuff up, because I haven't heard ANY

of the main Obama supporters say support him because he is "cool". Sounds like you have nothing to say but sour grapes.

[Sapphocrat]

78. Another "you're just making stuff up" reaction.

You suffer from "selective focus" too, I see.

I guess coming down on a HRC supporter who was making an outrageous, unsubstantiated smear on Obama the other day was pointless. I'll bet you saw that attack -- but I'll bet you didn't see me slap the shit out of the OP.

Remind me never to stick up for you guys again -- even if it is the right thing to do.

[EFerrari]

52. Dense, shallow, moron?

That's really disappointing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. This Board Is Zero Fun

Everyday I promise myself to never come here again... One day I will get it right...I can get more sober and dispassionate discussion at your local watering hole at 2:00 in the morning...

If the election was tomorrow I would vote against the god awful anti-gay marriage amendment on the Florida ballot and leave the presidential choice blank... Ironically, a lot of the people I talk to feel the same way...

There will be a lot of fences to mend...Out in the real world, John McCain isn't the Bogey man Bush* is... Yeah he's a hawk of hawks but he doesn't seem to hate gay folks, undocumented workers, or liberals...

Shit in one hand, honey in the other...Guess which hand people want to shake...

[Sapphocrat]

64. No, Beth, I'll tell you what's disappointing.

What's disappointing is finding the one forum on DU restricted to discussion of primaries overrun by newbies who claim to be voting for the first time, but whose sole purpose is clearly disruption via dozens of OPs and scores -- even hundreds -- of posts per day consisting of nothing but cheap shots at those of us not supporting The One. What's disappointing is getting sucked into answering a question that sounds legitimate, but is nothing more than a trap. What's disappointing is being called a DLC-loving, warmongering Hillary shill. What's disappointing is having my second-class citizenship dismissed, again, as "faux outrage." What's disappointing is being told that at 46 I'm old, that I fucked up their generation, and that I need to get the hell out of the way before I'm "shoved" out of the way. What's disappointing is that you took this OP personally, when it had nothing to do with you. What's disappointing is that you -- one of the sharpest people on DU -- refuse to see what's going on, and instead knock me back with a dismissive one-liner. What's disappointing is the number of times I've been attacked unfairly in GDP, and you never came to my defense.

[LostinVA]

66. Good OP -- I agree 100%

My tipping point came last week when I was called a racist, but someone NOT a newbie.

[Sapphocrat]

71. I forgot to mention that, too.

I've guess I've been called a racist so many times now, I'm almost deaf to it.

[NMMNG]

72. Don't you just love that?

That automatic "you're a racist" from some of them because you don't approve of Obama. I mean,

1. Why do they just assume that you are white or otherwise not black?
2. The assumption inherent in that is that all blacks would be voting for Obama, so doesn't that make them rather racist?

[Politicub]

81. I'm just so sick of the "Not in love with Obama" = racist crap

I've been accused of being a racist probably five times now, and have given up on posting on Obama-esque threads (except this one :) ).

It really wears one down. And the intent is just to get people to shut up and stop posting anything critical of Obama, I guess it certainly worked on me. Sad, huh?

And another sad thing is, once I start warming up to Obama - even a little bit - I read comments that people make about Hillary (sometimes vile, hateful things including regurgitated GOP talking points from the 90's), and it just turns me off. Besides, he has enough support and doesn't need my feeble posts anyway.

And I know that by posting this, I'm opening myself up to the "You're such a crybaby - WAHHHHH" response that I've gotten a few times already, too.

[NMMNG]

93. Yep

Way back when I was a Kucinich supporter I was still a "Hillbot" because I dared to voice opposition to things Obama said/did. It's like nobody else but a Hillbot would think of not voting for Obama (or maybe they forgot the other candidates existed?). I was also a racist, religion-hater, one-issue-voter and myriad other things. Funny how they belittle us constantly for not supporting his highness but then turn around and scream if we say one word to or about them. :eyes:


And don't even get me started on the "cry-baby" stuff. :puke:

[Sapphocrat]

95. You just don't get it, do you?

That's what UNITY looks like!







:sarcasm: <= for the sarcasm-impaired

[NMMNG]

99. It's only "unity" if you join their club

Otherwise you're an old religion-hating racist Hillbot afraid-of-change warmongering DLC crybaby.

[enough already]

130. You know, if Bill hadn't shot his mouth off so inappropriately....

....nobody would be yelling 'racist' at anybody. But he did and Hillary did nothing to stop it and her supporters went along with it too. It was disgusting and that's why you're hearing it.

[NMMNG]

131. The "racist" jabs were flying here long before Big Dog said a thing

Try again.

[K Gardner]

59. Lord, after this post I'd have to agree that young people would HAVE to be much "quicker on the

uptake than you". Thanks for labeling millions of your fellow democrats "dense and shallow". Nice touch. ^5

And whatever your problem is.. it ain't my job. It's up to you.


Thanks..

A dense and shallow 50-year-old Obama cultist who thinks her candidate is really cool !

[Sapphocrat]

85. Again, it's amazing how many people...

...I wasn't thinking of think it's all about them.

I wasn't thinking of you, K Gardner -- but if you want to adopt that mantle, that's up to you.

[cbayer]

121. Thanks for changing your Avatar. It was confusing me (not too bright). nt.

[Jamastiene]

149. Uhm, if the shoe fits, wear it.

Nobody mentioned your name or even said anything about millions...until you came along and labeled your own self "dense" and "shallow." If the shoe fits, at least you admit it. I'll give you that much. :eyes:

[K Gardner]

60. dupe.. can't post on this board today for some reason

[dailykoff]

62. Proving once again that Hilly supporters are one-issue voters

-- a pointless wedge-issue at that -- and appallingly uninformed on every issue that matters: war, torture, genocide, CIA renditions, illegal detentions, habeas corpus rights, the list is sickeningly long.

I'm beginning to understand who all those beyond-idiotic dirty tricks are aimed at.

[NMMNG]

73. Ya

IOW, your reply has what to do with the OP?

[Sapphocrat]

74. Case in point.

With you, it's all about name-calling, and trying to undermine a six-year DU veteran (that's me, in case you're having trouble following along) as "appallingly uninformed on every issue that matters" (nice underhanded "gay faux outrage" slap there), when I've never once seen you discuss any issue that "matters" or not.

Welcome to IgnoreLand.

[dailykoff]

77. Maybe if you spent less time in IgnoreLand

you'd have a better grasp of the issues. Staying tuned to the Hallmark channel where the water is always shallow does not make for an informed voter.



p.s. and thanks to whoever just gave me a heart!!!! :hi: :grouphug:

[NMMNG]

88. Case in point again

Sapphocrat doesn't watch the Hallmark channel. Too much cloying pablum for anybody to take. :puke:


Sapphocrat watches Lehrer News Hour, BBC News and the like.



What is it with you guys anyway? You can't defend your guy or yourselves so you attack the messenger or scream "Hillary does it tooooooo". :cry:

[dailykoff]

94. Ahem, Hilly bought an hour on the 'cloying pablum' channel

and there are twenty breathless threads here to prove it.

[NMMNG]

103. Ahem

I don't care that she did. Unlike some people I don't follow every last thing my candidate says and does just because I'm voting for her. Hero worship is just not my style.

[Bongo Prophet]

167. I really like that John and Theresa Heinz Kerry avatar of yours.

Besides John's work on BCCI, Iran-contra, environment and tech issues, is how they both are committed to finding common cause, for expanding human rights, and never descending into unwarranted attacks and insults.


They are to be admired and..........emulated.
Just saying.


As to the heart, my guess is --
It looked like you needed one.

Kindness has to start somewhere.

[TankLV]

143. foget that pesky REPEATED gay bashing thing, right?

[Jamastiene]

151. Thanks for letting me know my rights mean nothing to you.

Welcome to Ignore with all the other homophobes.

[Bluebear]

152. Gay rights - a "a pointless wedge-issue" - - - screw you too.

[dailykoff]

154. Fine, let's accept that Hilly will perk up your sex life.

If there's a shallower reason for enabling genocide I'd love to know what it is.

[Bluebear]

155. Being gay is NOT ABOUT your "SEX LIFE" you IDIOT.

[NMMNG]

158. I was right about you all along

You're an underhanded POS.

BTW, your messiah voted to fund the genocide so I wouldn't sit too high on that horse, my dear.

[Hekate]

183. Oh that does it. This straight mature-age Obama supporter is giving you an Iggy.

I invite you to do something anatomically impossible with yourself.

Hekate

[Bluebear]

194. "I invite you to do something anatomically impossible with yourself."

OMG I am going to steal that at some point :rofl:

[Bongo Prophet]

163. How do you get "one-issue voter" out of the OP? Good supporters should guide bad ones.

Let me take a guess at the "one-issue" you conjured up, and correct me if I am wrong.

Is it GLBT rights?
Well, how can you be so concerned about the other human rights you mentioned and not know how interconnected they are?
Why would you attack the OP with an accusation of "One-issue" when that is not even mentioned in the OP?
How can you say the OP is "appallingly uninformed on every issue that matters" - or that the author has not carefully weighed these issues?

I agree that the issues you list, and the sickeningly long additions we could come up with.
Heck, if we were able to TALK and REASON together, we could discuss this and all of the complexities involved.
Instead, you just broad brushed all Hillary supporters, and made an attempt to mischaracterize them.
I think you missed.


But that is not the point.
Consider that I may vote Obama - I assume you want votes for Obama, right?
Maybe I have weighed several options, pro and con of each - and am teetering on the edge.
Maybe I have heard Obama's people are a bit cultlike, but the one's I have talked to seemed pretty cool.
Great, I hate culty and trendy, so that sways me just a bit.
Then I see supporters, and they aren't talking about the high ideals that their candidate stands for, like what to do about the items on that list.
No, they are talking about Obama, how awesome and like, such as, and stuff. you know?
What if I am on a discussion board, and see the pitiful conduct of several supporters?

Will it sway my vote? Should it?
Those are two different things.

Voting decisions are made with both heart and mind, and more than a bit of subconscious bargaining.
some people, like it or not, decide in the booth.
Their decision is a culmination of many things, and not all in the rational mode.
They go with their gut, their inner voice.
Maybe it was a supporter who attacked this person, or waxed ineloquently about their hero.
Oops.

what if you, as a very well informed Obama supporter, took your colleagues to a strategy meeting?
Have some coffee, talk about how to LISTEN and then respectfully discuss issues and candidates.
Those supporters now know not to insult prospective voters, and know that internet discussions ARE REAL discussions.
They make impressions.
Because you taught them well, they impress onlookers and fellow board members with their knowledge and manners.
You get more votes.
The issues get addressed.
You have helped save the world, just a tiny bit.

Isn't that what you want?

Well, that is what the OP is suggesting.
Think about it.
You can PM me or respond here, but I would like to know what you think.
We need to start changing this environment.
It is toxic.

[Lex Talionis]

70. Questions from a lemming.

Before anybody gets all wild eyed about what I am going to ask. A little about myself. I'm an Independent, pure and simple. So that may disqualify me right there. Always loved how the Big Dog acted during the 90's. Until I had a Daughter and realized that maybe my thinking about women was wrong. Since at the time I treated women the way Bill did/does. Truly was shocked when NOW gave Bill a pass on Monicagate. I mean, after telling me all those years that it is wrong when a man in power uses that to influence young women for sex, even if she agrees. Born in the South, raised a racist, had an epiphany. Black man stood up for me when no one else would, and realized that real men come in all colors. I believe that Obama is the truest and best way to change this country. I'm part of America that thinks, Democrat or Republican, they are two sides of the same coin. I have lurked here for years and I also learned that some progressives think like me. So here goes.

Do all those who support the Clinton's, really believe that Bill will just sit back and stay in the background?

Do you think that it was OK for Bill to take advantage of young women the way he did When he was President? If so why? Please don't use "its personal business" argument. Also don't use that Bush.....fill in the blank. The reason I asked that question is,in my experience, if your spouse can't trust ya, I can't either.

If Obama wins the most votes in the primary, but not enough to win the nomination and the super delegates give it to Hill/Bill. Will you be as outraged as people were about the selection of Bush? I was very surprised when Donna Brazil(sp?)said she would quit the Democratic party if that happens. And final question.

In the last election did anybody here notice that the two candidates were both megarich white men, who went to the same elite college, were both members of the same secret organization, and during all the debates (that I saw) wore red ties and blue suits? Thats just something to think about when you say you are given a choice. Cause if Obama isn't enough to shake our political landscape to its foundation, nothing is. Sorry in advance if I did not follow protocal and thank you for your time. Also sorry if I make some of the more sensitive types swoon with my "nuckeldraggin" history. GO BO!!!!

[varelse]

117. I hope the OP will correct me if I'm wrong about this but

your post would appear to be a perfect example of the exact OPPOSITE of the kind of suspect behaviour she's criticizing in this thread.

Call it an "anti-example" if you will...

[Sapphocrat]

118. You're absolutely correct.

To be perfectly honest, I've been neglecting to reply to that well-thought-out post because I've been trying to think of a way to do it without taking the entire thread too far afield.

I should suggest the poster start a new thread with it -- it's a fine, non-lemming thread starter. :)

[Lex Talionis]

137. Hi Sapphocrat

This is where I show my ignorance. How do I start my on post? I'm not here to disrupt. I'm here to learn. Is it being a fine non-lemming thread good? Thank you for your time.

[Sapphocrat]

141. Yes...

..."a fine non-lemming thread" is a very good thing indeed. :)

Look at the very top of the screen, and you should see a "post" link with a pencil over it:

Click it, and start writing! :hi:

[Lex Talionis]

192. well, duh! Thank you.

[LeftCoast]

76. I'm so glad I stumbled onto this thread

I see so many people posting here who I thought had left. All the people I came to DU for seem to be getting drowned out by f*heads.

I hope the promised DU v. 3.0 can help solve some of this.

[enigmatic]

86. I've rarely agreed w/ you in the past

But I agree w/ you here; it's sad what's going on. I've got your back on this.

[nonconformist]

87. K & R. nt

[Politicub]

90. I posted something similar to this (though not nearly as eloquent)

over the weekend. My suggestion to the Obama supporters was to temper their expectations with reality, because once we make it to the general, the media love affair with Obama will be over. There's no way any human being can live up to the superhuman expectations that have been placed on him.

Oh, and I had an epiphany of sorts - and feeling kind of blah that it took me this long to "get" it. But I finally started to understand what the "hope" and "change" is about. And I mean this in all seriousness -- the hope is for changing the tone. That's it. Nothing more. It's about changing the rhetoric of politics, not actually hope for some kind of policy that will propel us forward. People are tired of political arguments. Then it made sense - all the talk about reaching across the aisle, etc. The problem is, at least in my opinion, changing the tone means getting the GOP in line with your thinking. If the Obama supporters believe this will happen without making some serious concessions, they are deluding themselves.

(let me save some Obama supporter some time by writing a reply to this post for them - "We're not delusional. Stop calling us that. You're just jealous because of IWR and Mark Penn and other things. And you're a mean racist!")

I admire Obama's ability to inspire. I wish he would harness that ability and pull a JFK and make a policy proposal as big as putting a man on the moon. Then maybe I would get on board with "hope." I truly want to believe and drink the koolaid. And before someone points it out, I know Hillary isn't out there making grandiose policy proposals either, but I do think the policies she has proposed are more favorable than Obama's - at least on paper. And for the record, I believe Obama has the momentum now, and Hillary has an uphill battle. I believe he's going to be our nominee, and I had better get on board or get out of way. Either of them would be preferable to the GOP, but I want to be enthusiastic about my support, you know?

[theHandpuppet]

96. Thanks for this thread

They're doing the same thing over in GD, by the way, but I'm sick of trying to fight that battle.

Hang in there!

:thumbsup:

[Sapphocrat]

107. I figure it's worth one last shot.

Btw, I'm loving your subthread with DemBones & Straight Shooter!

[Bucky]

98. Being old, white, and stupid myself, I feel ya. Howver I AM voting for Obama cause he's cool

But sexy? Not so much.

[WillyT]

102. Gee... Thanks For Your "Concern"...

:wtf:

[Sapphocrat]

106. Gee, thanks for the "concern troll" slap.

Here, read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4534290&mesg_id=4541068

...especially the part about how this crap reflects on all Democrats.

[WillyT]

109. Ok... I Apologize For The Slap, And Read Your Post, But For Real Concern, Go Here:

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10rich.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

:shrug:

[Sapphocrat]

112. Thanks.

I read it -- and I won't for a moment try to defend the tactics Rich is talking about. If Rich's account is accurate (and I have no reason to believe it's not; I've long respected Rich, even though I haven't always agreed with his opinion on various subjects over the years -- but I still have to take it secondhand, as I didn't see the town hall show for myself), then these tactics are dirty and wrong. Yet, at the risk of sounding like an "Obama does it tooooooooooo!" whiner, it's just more of the same from both camps: If Hillary's campaign is trying to demonize blacks, Obama's has demonized gay people to conservative blacks.

That, unfortunately, is politics, and there's no excusing either side for it. But that Hillary is somehow more wrong for exploiting racism than Obama is for exploiting homophobia -- I don't get it. Oh, it's not lost on me that (at least on DU) racism is a much graver "sin" than homophobia (I'm sure it has to do with the idea that a lot of people still insist on believing that the latter is a "choice," while the former is not) -- but I'll never understand why one -ism is worse than another -phobia. (Don't even get me started on misogyny, which appears to pale as a genuine issue, even lower on the list of concerns than homophobia.)

Bottom line: It's all wrong. And I don't take umbrage with legitimate criticism of HRC (which Frank's piece is). What galls me is that legitimate criticism of Obama automatically brands the critic a "racist" (or an old "Boomer" who's afraid of change and hates young people, and/or a warmonger, and/or a DLC shill, and/or all the other crap flung at anyone who doesn't bow down at the Altar of Obama).

Remember, Willy, I don't have a lot of faith in either Hillary or Obama -- I never have. I'm still entrenched in Kucinich territory, and I always will be -- and when anyone expresses disbelief that a near-Green like me could veer so far to the right as to vote for HRC, the simple truth is that I understand Hillary. I don't like a lot about Hillary, but it's like what Duane Wells said about Bush (and I paraphrase): Bush won't piss in my cornflakes and tell me it's whole milk. Nosirree -- Bush will tell me he's going to piss in my cornflakes, then by golly, he does piss in my cornflakes, and then he'll hold a press conference defending the reason he pissed in my cornflakes.

Obama pisses in my cornflakes and does try to convince me it's whole milk.

Like the Edwards supporters, I've been forced to choose between two candidates I didn't want in the first place. I choose Hillary, who's not going to give me much, but who isn't making me a lot of promises she can't possibly keep.

What else can I do but choose the one I don't distrust as much as the other? Stay home? Vote third-party?

[WillyT]

136. I Hear Ya...

Like I said a week or two back, when I said I'd vote for Hillary in the GE if it came to that....

I've gone from Kucinich -> Edwards -> Obama and possibly to Clinton.

And I got pissed all over again, about being "walked" from the left, right back to the center again.

SOMEDAY... we will have an actual LIBERAL in the WhiteHouse.

Until then...

:banghead:

And... from Pink Floyd:

Outside the Wall

All alone, or in twos
The ones who really love you
Walk up and down outside the wall
Some hand in hand
Some gathering together in bands
The bleeding hearts and the artists
Make their stand
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall after all it's not easy
banging your heart against some mad buggers
Wall

Hang in there, it'll happen.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

125. WTF??? How dare you call Sapphocrat a CONCERN TROLL

She's been on here for YEARS, posted on a wide-range of topics, and has been an especial defender of GLBT and women's rights. Take the patronizing accusation against a LONG-TIME poster and apologize.

The most ironic thing? The OP is an HRC supporter because of circumstances.

[Sapphocrat]

144. Thanks, LVA.

I think Willy was just having a knee-jerk reaction (I'm having difficulty controlling my own "jerking knees" a lot lately), but I really appreciate what you said here. It means a lot. :)

[primavera]

111. What a bizarre "us-them" dynamic this has become

Obviously there are important differences between Hillary and Obama and, the world being populated by diverse people, it's only natural that some people are going to value certain qualities more than others and those preferences will cause them to appreciate one candiate more than the other. What puzzles me is how reasonable differences between reasonable people provide a basis for generalizations about each candidate's supporters collectively. What makes anyone think that they can draw conclusions about others based upon their decision to support one candidate over another? I happen to be supporting Obama for various reasons, none of which have anything to do with him being cool or sexy, or any neocon conspiracy against the Clintons, or my age, anymore than I imagine Hillary supporters base their decision on their age, gender, race, or level of economic prosperity. So why are we devoting so much time and energy to discussing imagined generalizations about the candidates' supporters, none of whom, to th best of my knowledge, are running for public office, when we should be discussing the candidates who are running for office?

[Sapphocrat]

113. I couldn't agree more.

Sadly, it's "issue" posts (and entire threads) that sink like a rock -- they're being drowned out. And if they don't get archived too quickly, they're yanked way off-topic by people who don't want the rest of us to discuss issues. (My God, if they let us talk issues, we might actually find Obama supporters and Hillary supporters aren't that far apart in opinion! The horror!)

I'd love to discuss issues with you, Kevin, or with any other Obama supporter -- but until the overwhelming noise-to-signal ratio drops, drastically, there's little chance of that happening.

[primavera]

114. Bummer

I've been away from DU for a bit and was unaware of the extent to which this antagonism has developed. What a pity, especially since I would really love to hear the views of other DUers about the candidates' positions.

[Bongo Prophet]

116. Sapphocrat, I think it is up to all of us to raise the level. You make a good point here.

Your point about infiltrators coming in to taunt and game the system is true, no question.
They do not really belong to the camp they claim, but are willing to sockpuppet as one or the other - and sometimes both, no doubt.

So it is obvious that many, maybe most, of the ones who are just here to split us are NOT real supporters of our candidates. One of the complications in this is that it can infect good, long-time DUers who start emulating the argument patterns, and, on joining their respective tribes, spend much time and energy defending or attacking, and escalating the outrage. These are such old tricks, and so geared to basic group psychology that it is dangerously effective.

The main point of your OP, that Obama supporters who are mature (regardless of age) should try to rein in their "fellow supporters", is a good one. Of course it is obvious that this goes for the taunting name callers in the Clinton camp as well. Since each side won't listen to the other, it is only within each that change can be made. The challenge to each of us is the fact that trolls within any camp will not listen to reason even within their supposed camp. so, we will have a smaller set of troublemakers - at that point, it will begin to get easier to spot the trolls and get them the hell out here.


I have been working with some other DUers who share these concerns, and we have been doing a multi-pronged attack on this problem, using whatever methods and tools we can to make DU a better environment for longer and more thoughtful dialog. These methods include calling out the most childish posters regardless of side, making pleas for civility and gauging responses (it is starting to snowball, very encouraging) and discussions of opinion leaders on each side to do exactly what you suggest - work within their own camps.

Soon, a few Loungies will be called to add some levity to the mix, once it settles down a bit, and once it is less rancorous, we will be inviting many of the more eloquent yet gentle souls who can't stomach the bitterness. One of the memes is "the adults are back" - again, not a generation thing (another stupid argument) but a call for mature and respectful dialog. More good, less bad. Disagreement without disrespect.

The admins are working on structural issues, and that should help fighting the spam.
The mods have a rough time keeping up with it, but there were a few, like Neutron and Nimrod, who got tombstoned and now will have to try again under a new name.
There are people of good faith across the dem spectrum to whom principle trumps gamesmanship, and community trumps discord.
That you have intuited this, is a testament to your judgment.
We are working on it.

If you want to do your part, start listening, let the stupid posts fall and support thoughtful posts, disagree respectfully, and use that alert button when appropriate.
If you see childish insults, or people using Hillbot, Obamatron, etc. - call them out as the fools they are, gently or harshly, as you see fit.
If you see someone peddling lies or right wing talking points, same thing - and especially, as you suggested, if they are in your own camp.

I am in Texas (pity me!) and will have to make a choice - but I will never be in anyone's "camp" even then. It makes people crazy!
Go whoever is our nominee! Whooo! > says this 50 yr old white old guy, solid with GLBT community,with unions, with all races, etc.
Anti-fascist, anti-disinformation, anti-stupid.
:hi:

[Sapphocrat]

120. Thank you, BG.

It's encouraging to hear about the "multi-pronged attack" (which truly is news to me). I can't add much more to anything you've said except...

One of the complications in this is that it can infect good, long-time DUers who start emulating the argument patterns, and, on joining their respective tribes, spend much time and energy defending or attacking, and escalating the outrage. These are such old tricks, and so geared to basic group psychology that it is dangerously effective.

No question about that -- I'm well aware I'm guilty of it. When the realization hit me -- like a bolt of lightning -- how I was being "PsyOp'd," that's when I started using the ignore function in earnest. I don't want to be sucked in anymore; I don't like my own behavior when it happens.

(It's also not lost on me how gradual, how insidious, the "creep" was. But that's how it's played, when it's played well.)

Oh, and hang in there, Tex -- we can make the Lone Star State safe for democracy again! ;)

(I'm still in love with your Dem legislators who fled the state and holed up in -- where was it, Oklahoma? -- to circumvent a quorum for GOP-led gerrymandering in 2003. That was beautiful. :thumbsup: )

[NMMNG]

122. You're right

Your point about infiltrators coming in to taunt and game the system is true, no question.
They do not really belong to the camp they claim, but are willing to sockpuppet as one or the other - and sometimes both, no doubt.

Too true. Some of them are "attack dogs" who do nothing but pounce on anybody from the "opposition" in any thread with little more than name-calling and other forms of hate speech. Others are little more than spam-bots who fill the forum with countless daily OPs that either spew hatred for their opponent or sugar and spice for their own candidate (this is on both sides).

The main point of your OP, that Obama supporters who are mature (regardless of age) should try to rein in their "fellow supporters", is a good one. Of course it is obvious that this goes for the taunting name callers in the Clinton camp as well. Since each side won't listen to the other, it is only within each that change can be made. The challenge to each of us is the fact that trolls within any camp will not listen to reason even within their supposed camp. so, we will have a smaller set of troublemakers - at that point, it will begin to get easier to spot the trolls and get them the hell out here.

I've taken to calling out some of the jerks on the HRC "supporter" side like the obvious trolls. I'll also call out any downright untrue or vile claim (like the Muslim smears or racist crap). Heated discourse is one thing (and I know I've said some outrageous things myself at times) but there's a limit.

[vickitulsa]

190. Can't express emphatically enough how glad I am to read this, BG!

I have patiently read through this thread, every post, at this hour -- except of course the Ignored ones -- and am happy I can now say I believe what you have said here and am feeling a lot of relief about the situation and what may now come of it, eventually, at least.

Relief, among other things, that something IS being done in addition to Skinner's considered "structural" moves to improve the situation, that is.

With regard to your overall assessment, I just fully and heartily agree with how you put it. If I could write as well (and concisely) as you, I'd have said it much the same way.

Also, it shouldn't then come as a surprise to Sapphocrat, either, that I agree with the OP as well -- and moreover, I applaud Sappho for having the courage and the endurance to offer all those thoughts in an OP. Especially knowing full well what sort of flak it was likely to draw from the "some" that she mentioned.

Like so many of the DU "vets" -- although I'm not yet quite one of them -- I have been much dismayed and often thoroughly pissed off at what's been going on here lately. But I had not been able yet to come up with good ideas on how to combat the problem and "rescue" our beloved DU! Rescue it, not from any one side's "supporters" but from the horrid trend toward mindless, bratty negativity and disruptive "waste of bandwidth," as we used to say -- from whatever sources.

I stumbled across DU two and a half years ago, and yesterday I had to actually stop and try hard to remember just why I loved it so much from my first encounter through those first two years, simply because it's been so dramatically changed lately.

I went two years here having put less than six people on Ignore, only to finally give in to using it a week ago and finding my list rapidly ballooning to at least a couple dozen now. How sad, yes, truly SAD, that is.

But it IS helping. And BG, I'll be joining in the efforts you mentioned to improve things, too, as much as I can. (I'm not too gutsy when it comes to standing up to people I feel sure won't be responsive but will just shout me down nastily. Issues from my own life, ya know, so that's a hard one for me.)

And finally, I thank Sapphocrat and EVERYONE on this thread who stood up and took the time and had the patience to wade through the muck and offer GENUINE and thoughtful concern, plus ideas to help stem the tide and turn it back. Truly, from the bottom of my soft heart, I appreciate it!

At last I have some real hope for DU again, and that means a lot to me.

So glad I stuck with reading this entire thread -- I wish everyone here at DU would do the same! :)

[pacalo]

132. BRAVO.

[stillcool]

135. They say the true test of character..

is in how you speak to others. I'm sorry you feel so disillusioned by the enormous increase in American citizens taking part in this primary season. I am sorry you feel that because your opinion is more justified, more important, and more valuable than others, that you feel you have to belittle those who think otherwise. Sad.

[Sapphocrat]

139. And I'm sorry...

...you felt compelled to expose yourself as the personification of exactly what I'm talking about in the OP.

That's what sad.

Off to the cornfield with you!

[NMMNG]

142. Which catagory did you fall into?

1. Didn't read the OP
2. Didn't comprehend it
3. Saw yourself in it so you have to lash out blindly



Nothing in your response indicates you read or comprehended the OP so I'm guessing #3.

[stillcool]

145. more of the same?

1. Didn't read the OP
2. Didn't comprehend it
3. Saw yourself in it so you have to lash out blindly



Nothing in your response indicates you read or comprehended the OP so I'm guessing #3.

The "I'm voting for Obama because he's sexy / he's cool / I want a rock star" threads are all a joke -- from, I expect The Site That Shall Not Be Named.

I refuse to believe so many people -- especially young people, who I grant are much quicker on the uptake than I am, being so well informed by the Internet their entire lives -- could possibly be so dense and so shallow.

So, from now on, I will take all those "You don't get it, because you're OLD / WHITE / STUPID / whatever" posts for exactly what they are: a really bad joke at the expense of us Hillary supporters.

Well done. You really made fools out of us, sucking us into this idiocy.

As for you Obama supporters who don't belong to the troll fellowship that's making you all look like morons, I suggest that if you can't rein them in, you hunt them down and expose them, before the rest of the world lumps you in with them.

The MSM has already set its sights on the "cult label"; if you want to stem the tide before it sweeps you way too, you'd best show these trolls up, ASAP.

It ain't my job, kids. It's up to you.

Bye...

[NMMNG]

146. All you've proven is that you can cut and paste

Not read or comprehend.



But whatever. I don't feel like playing games.

[Bluebear]

156. Newest gem: being gay is all about one's sex life.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4534290&mesg_id=4547411

[NMMNG]

162. Of course it is

And gays are "one issue voters" too. :eyes:

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sapphocrat]

160. Thanks for checking in!

The irony, the irony... :eyes:

[NMMNG]

161. You know, you really shouldn't characterize all Obama supporters that way

Only a tiny fraction of them are.

[IndieLeft]

168. You really don't get it!

As someone who has taken a passionate stand regarding the candidate you believe in, I'd expect this. But don't say that you're different than the ones you denigrate. Your post has just fashioned preconceived notions about what an Obama supporter looks like. AS a matter of fact it seems like you're stereotyping supporters as well as stereotyping yourself. Take a look at the language you've used in your post.

You think people see you as old white and stupid. If nothing else is true you have applied the generational gap to your passions. You're telling others not to be a certain way while you continue to be who you say you are.

People are varied. They all have different opinions. It's okay if you want to be you. It's okay if others want to be something different. Perhaps it's hard to accept but many who support Obama support him for reasons different than you believe. There many different opinions out there.

From where I'm standing, I don't have to do a lot of separating out. Obama supporters do have one thing in common. As overzealous as some supporters may be they want two things they believe he can deliver. Hope. CHANGE. How many people do you think have ever heard of DU? You might want to get out in the world and see that their are more personality types than exist here on DU. There are more stripes that support Clinton in a much more thoughtful way than in here. Depending on where you're from you express yourself the way you feel comfortable. When things get out of hand the moderator extends the authority necessary to rein the most obscene comments in.

Here is the skinny on why I support Obama. He didn't vote for a war that has consumed the lives of some 4000 men and women. I'm finding it hard to believe that so many people have forgotten that this authorization tied members of the senate and the congress to it. If there were never a war to start there wouldn't be this angst and certainly others wouldn't have to look at it.


Secondly, Obama didn't vote for a bankruptcy bill that put poor families struggling with medical bills in a deeper hole. I can't figure out why any democrat would have voted for this bill but guess what, some did.



The ones you label trolls are passionate about a cause. You sound passionate too. That's why you call them trolls.

As for the MSM... they lost legitimacy a long time ago. For seven years blogs have sprouted. I don't even have to rely on MSM.

And what is so fantastic about Obama's run is that the media has not been able to stem the tide of support for Obama. I think the likes or Buchanan are pissed about it. MSM said Obama should have been gone at the end of Super-Tuesday. Remember this one: if Hillary wins California then Obama is done! He's still here.

Some tried to influence this election process by race baiting, gender gaping, economic polling and none of it has worked. Cult is just another negative label people want to attach to a man who believes in Hope. Many believe in hope. It's better than believing that "wars" cure what ails us.

[Bluebear]

175. 'two things they believe he can deliver. Hope. CHANGE.'

Again: meaning WHAT in terms of what our country would look like after 4 years of an Obama presidency? What "change" are we "hoping" for?

[NMMNG]

179. d00d

You just HOPE for CHANGE and poof!

[Bluebear]

195. I saw that episode, Endora changed Darren into a mule

Well, I suppose it was a change . . .

[NMMNG]

197. LOL

It was the change Enora sought.

[okasha]

198. O, Bama, thou art translated!

(With apologies to Billy Shakes.)

[orleans]

177. damn, sapphocrat!

when i read "OK, I may be slow, but I get it. You've had your fun" i had to click--wondering what the fun was that i have had lately that i apparently missed/wasn't aware of/forgot.

i was all excited. you had my hopes up!

...and, as it turns out--i haven't had any fun at all!

thanks for the misleading headline!

:P }(
here are a few just plain stupidly/hysterical headlines i posted earlier:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2848009&mesg_id=2848073:
:7

[Hekate]

178. Nice to see you again, Sapph. Thanks for the great post. nt

[Jennicut]

196. We are all adults here

Just ignore the idiots. There are idiots in all walks of life. In every age group and race there are idiots and there are idiot men and idiot women. We all know this. I'm am 32 years old and not really a "kid" but not a baby boomer adult. I think everyone just needs to chill out. I voted for Obama. I know his policies, I read his website and listened to alot of his speeches. I like what he says and what he stands for. However, I don't think any Obama supporters should like him simply because he is the youngest candidate running for president or he is cooler than Hillary or something. That is not a way to choose a candidate. Likewise, people who support Hillary should realize that younger people are NOT all dumb, childish, immature. If you can go die for your country at 18 then you are old enough to pick a presidential candidate. I have been following politics since I was 17 years old in 1992. I very closely followed that election and if I would have would have voted for Bill Clinton because we needed a desperate change from Poppy Bush. At 17 I felt like I could definately understand who would be the best president for the country and I'm glad Bush lost that election. And there was no internet then. That became popular when I went to college. At 32 I do have a greater understanding of what it means to pay taxes, own your own home, raise children. But my ideals from that time in 1992 have not changed. This should not be old vs young for any of us. Its a trap by the MSN and Rethugs to have us fight with each other so we make the Democratic Party weaker. Don't fall into the trap.