Misogyny lives on.

[Auntie Bush]

Anybody but a woman! White men won't vote for a Woman. Especially in the Conservative Christian South where woman are suppose to gracefully bow to their husbands wishes and opinion. White men won't hesitate to vote for a black man. Misogamy is more ingrained into our society than racism. That's a wonderful well deserved milestone for blacks...and I'm very happy for them...but it is so sad for woman. :cry: If Hillary doesn't win this primary there is absolutely no hope for a woman president for at least the next 30 plus years. She is such a strong woman and so suited and qualified to hold the office of president. She's dedicated her whole adult life fighting for our liberal causes. What other woman has done that? There is no real outstanding female raising star even in the pipeline. We will never reach that formidable glass ceiling...not in my lifetime or yours either. That's sad....

Sorry....ain't the best speller!

[TwilightGardener]

1. Misogyny? Monogamy?

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. Monotony? Morony? n/t

[polpilot]

161. Pro-war Hillary? Fighting passionately for universal healthcare since 1992...

or was it 1892? Lot of head bobbing...results include war and more war and yeah and passionate about NAFTA, and playing golf with Poppy Bush...I hear the sounds of revolution!

[Jamastiene]

190. You Obama supporters sure get your big words mixed up a lot.

Own it. If you practice it, at least fucking own up to it.

[blitzen]

2. misogyny?

[Jamastiene]

191. See post #190 for your answer. n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

3. There are plenty of women who I and many others will vote for. People don't like Hillary, not ...

because she's a woman, but because she's Hillary.

[Mz Pip]

15. I like Hillary

She's just not my first choice. I'm not voting for someone just because they are a woman, though I will vote for her in the GE if she is our candidate.

I just think it's time for the next generation to have a crack at leading our country. They have a lot at stake.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[polpilot]

162. I truly believe the next generation are engaged truthfully behind Obama

and the 'older generations' with thoughts like 'white people won't vote for a blck man' are witnessing the emergence of a generation that truly, for the first time in American history, are the least bias against race/gender in our nation's history.

[SammyWinstonJack]

186. People don't like Obama not because he is a black man but just because he is a liar

and an opportunist and a flat out phony.

[goldcanyonaz]

4. Sadly, I agree with you, and I'm only 30.

[Sara Bradi]

107. I think Hillary is an intellectual...

well suited to be a great legislator or a high ranking judiciary, even a great activist.

But I just don't see the fire in her, that great women leaders like Thatcher, Indira Gandhi & Goldameyer had.

She is at the right place at the right time, so many women want to see her win. But this is the presidency of the United States that we are talking about, good enough won't do we have to have the best we can get.

Especially with the unrest & mistrust around the globe.

[Deja Q]

5. Well, maybe Hillary shouldn't have gone around saying "I'm your girl!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD1EkCKP164

[Unsane]

6. Spelling DOESN'T live on.

[Name removed]

Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

19. The word is spelled perfectly, it just means something other than what the OP intended

[K Gardner]

7. Another woman could and would easily win. And will. Just not this woman.

[sfam]

16. Agreed. This campaign made this clear. Hopefully the next woman pres...

candidate will not be relying on her husband to bring in the votes. This is really what started to do her in. She should have kept Bill in the background, working the phones for the superdelegates.

But clearly there are many woman governors - most of which could make a pretty good run at the nomination. Who knows - Barack may even pick one as VP.

[CTyankee]

178. My thinking, too! If we get an Obama/woman governor ticket and it

wins, the woman VP would be in a good place to run for President after 8 years, not 30. Governor Sibelius, anyone?

[Little Star]

18. That is a long time away if it's not Hillary now. She still can

win and perhaps she will. GOMAMA!!!!!!

[OzarkDem]

51. Not for a very long time, not for a woman or a Democrat

If Obama wins the nom, he will lose the GE and it will be a very, very, very long time before Dems rebound again, even longer before another woman gets a chance to run.

I thought we would have had a woman president well before now. If Clinton doesn't win this time, it will be another 12 years or more before a Dem woman gets another chance.

[Laurab]

66. He'll lose the GE? Link please?

Hillary might, but I don't see Obama losing the GE - you apparently aren't watching the primaries very closely.

A woman could win the presidency - it's not about being a woman, it's the particular woman that's running. Anyone taking this as "a woman" can't win is mistaken, and even seems a bit sexist - was I supposed to vote for a woman I didn't like, just because I'm a woman? I think not.

[lse7581011]

163. Why Would You Say That?

I've heard many Republicans saying that they would cross over to vote if our candidate was Obama!

[Skittles]

62. no way

that absolutely is not true

[mmonk]

82. That's the part they are not getting.

[Eurobabe]

8. Sorry Auntie, I respectfully disagree

I know a woman can win, just not Hillary. YMMV.

[Auntie Bush]

58. Who?

I would love that...but I can't imagine who. Give me some hope.

[Jamastiene]

192. Can you name one, please? n/t

[JVS]

9. Hatred of marriage?

Yeah, marriage sucks!

[Franks Wild Years]

17. Honestly...

Anyone who cannot see that Clinton's polling day catastrophes are because she has run an incredibly poor campaign is spectacularly deluded.

[JVS]

22. We have no argument on that.

[Buzz cook]

138. Oh really?

I'd say it's because she has to fight the media as well as Obama. Oh and the Clinton hating left.

[anigbrowl]

10. We certainly won't reach it until we get educated.

Misogyny - discrimination against women.
Monogamy - staying married to only one person.
Misogamy - er...not liking being married?

Edited because I got confused myself trying to decide what the definition ought to be.

[kirby]

11. Its anybody but Hillary..

Its her personally, not a woman in general. I think if we ran another woman without so much baggage things would be different. I dont think it will be a problem.

[bluestateguy]

12. That's nonsense

Hillary is absolutely a strong woman, but that does not automatically entitle her to the presidency. Margaret Thatcher was a strong woman too, but I never would have voted for her to be PM.

[tekisui]

13. I respect what you've said.

I think Hillary Clinton's campaign this year has proven what is possible. To say it won't happen for another 30 years is conceding defeat. Clinton is probably the only woman who could have done it now, in 2008.

But, she has changed the game. And, I expect to see a strong woman contender in every Presidential race until we have a female President. I sincerely believe we will not have to wait 30 years for Madame President.

[Withywindle]

65. I agree with this, definitely.

Unfortunately, it does go in incremental steps. Shirley Chisholm paved a way for Geraldine Ferraro who paved a way for Hillary Clinton. I feel more hopeful about a Madame President in my lifetime now than I did a few years ago because of Hillary's run, win or lose. It may have been Obama's moment and not hers, but there is no doubt that she is perceived as a very credible presidential possiblity even by many of those who can't stand her.

Running for President is HARD, and there are so many factors that can change everything that are not under any candidate's control.

But it does bother me when people knock Hillary for being "calculating" and "ambitious" - hello, we need to be teaching our girls that there is NOTHING wrong with being either of those things. That's how things get done, and nobody succeeds in politics who isn't. EVER.

[peoli]

14. I would love to see a strong woman President but Hillary aint the one Im looking for.

[democrat2thecore]

20. It's not a WOMAN - It's HILLARY CLINTON. When will people 'get it'? -nt

[NightWatcher]

21. so there could be no other reason but sexism.?

[Danger Mouse]

23. The sexism card is just about as tedious as the race card.

[Buzz cook]

139. Then stop playing them. nt

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty-Taylor]

31. Again, B&C, we agree. (See my response to OP)

[cbayer]

25. Ahem, can I talk to you for a minute?

I know a few have already pointed this out, but misogamy is the hatred of marriage.

[Lefty-Taylor]

26. Oh Please!!! I'd vote for a woman in a heartbeat. I prefer women as leaders. I work for women at

the college where I teach (female president and female dean). I'm married to a strong, smart woman (who loves DU -- she's "Oregonian"). But both of us do not support HRC because of her political philosophy (and voting record) not because of her gender. I know a lot of people -- of both sexes -- who feel the same way.

So please, don't get too morose about this: There will be a woman president in the very near future. And if that candidate is a progressive woman, my wife and I will help her become president.

[Little Star]

27. You have hit the nail on the head! Don't let the elite spelling

police get to you either! MAMA may take this thing yet! GO HILLARY!!!!!

[earthlover]

28. It is no more mysogyny to vote against Hillary than it is racism to vote against Obama

Hillary lost in VA among women. Are women in VA mysogynistic?

Get. Friggin. Real.

And quit the victim role. Hillary lost. Period.

You know why?

It is not race. It is not sexism.

It is the people's will.

Remember that?

[kirby]

32. Thats why Edwards supporters are racist/sexists.

Just kidding.

[Auntie Bush]

74. Then why are so many white men voting for Obama all across the nation?

I personally think much of it is because those rich or poor white men wouldn't vote for any woman...no matter who she is. They just can't see a woman as CiC. This will probably never change and that's sad. This is a man's and world and I've lost all hope of ever seeing a woman president...if Hillary doesn't win this election.

[CK_John]

95. IMO, as a guy, women have to take a page from Obama and just go for it, by that I

mean women have to run. Women need to run for every race, especially at the local level. They have to quit waiting until they feel they are ready to do the job. Just run. Sure they will lose alot, at first.

Most local governments are run by women, as underpaid staff while the guys run for office and take credit for everything done for them.

We started this season with 7 and 1, next season I hope it will be 4 and 4.

[Auntie Bush]

112. Now that's a good civil answer and perfect solution.

I'd give you a heart for that...but I gave them all away.

[earthlover]

153. maybe because they like his message?

you have not presented an ounce of evidence for mysogyny.

And I disagree totally with your thought that you will never see a woman president. As weak a candidate as Hillary is in many ways, in spite of her vote on the IWR and a poorly run campaign based on "inevitability" she got a lot of votes and she still is in the race, barely, but she can still win. This shows that people will vote for a woman. Get a better candidate and she will win!

This primary has shown that race and gender are both surmountable. This is a good thing!

[JAbuchan08]

182. The inverse of that is that white women are NOT voting for him, what does that imply?

just asking

[Jamastiene]

194. We got smart. n/t

[JAbuchan08]

203. but if white-men voting for a particular candidate is prejudiced

isn't white women voting en masse for a particular candidate prejudiced as well?

How do you determine whether it is the prejudice of white men that draws them to Obama or the prejudice of white women that drives them away?

[Jamastiene]

193. It's like this.

I don't know if you have ever watched any reality shows, but we are living in reality TV America now and I've watched a few of them. I have watched them enough to know that men will cozy up to and even feign a "thing" for a woman to use her to get her votes. Meanwhile, that same man goes and hides out with his "boys" and talks about the brotherhood of man all the way. What usually ends up happening? The girl gets screwed, lied to, and voted out, while the guys go all the way to the end.

In reality, men claim to love women, but men strongly tend to only love other men when push comes to shove. It's the war of the sexes.

Just look at all the white boys driving around listening to gangsta rap in their low riders for more evidence. Yeah, we are just bitches and hos to them. Back to my warm wet hole statement. That's the facts as I have lived them for 37 years of my life. There are exceptions. We just aren't seeing enough of them on here right now.

[TheWraith]

29. It's not because she's a woman, it's because she's a bad candidate.

She's run a bad campaign, which has been mismanaged at just about every stage. Plus her war vote, and a dozen other positions that don't sit with the Dem base. And don't give me that about there being no hope. Five years ago, there was no prospect on the horizon for a black president. One year from today, we're damn likely to have one. You don't know that there's not some female Obama out there shuffling papers on her desk in some state legislature, just waiting for an entrance onto the national stage.

[aquarius dawning]

43. It's because Republicans are fucking with our open primaries.

November will be very telling.

[TheWraith]

78. Yes, our victory in November is going to be sweet.

But if you believe that conspiracy-theory tripe about Republicans fixing our primaries... well, I can't help you.

[calteacherguy]

30. The majority of women are voting for Obama. nt

[kirby]

36. They are? I thought over 50 woman are Hillarys demographic n/t

[calteacherguy]

46. Not tonight! 59% and women and a majority of seniors voted for Obama in Maryland! nt

[VotesForWomen]

129. women have also resisited every advance in women's rights since day one. they know 'their place.'

[boricua79]

166. well said

must be they don't know what's good for them...those damned mysoginist women!

[Robeson]

33. Damn, you mean my wife is supposed to bow to my wishes and demands?....

...Damn. I didn't know that....

Neither did she. And we're not Christian or conservative. Wow, we need to step it up, so we can fit your stereotypes...:eyes:

[kirby]

40. I just told me wife that...

and she smacked me in the head....

[VotesForWomen]

130. well, you know what the official Southern Baptist position on that is, and they represent how many m

millions of people? i'm sorry, misogyny is not just a product of fevered feminist imaginations.

[KoKo]

34. MSNBC CABLE will show you what many in t he MSM t hink of women...

and it goes on and on...

[Endangered Specie]

35. Potentially being the first woman president

(or anything) doesn't mean you *should* be elected for that mere fact and not on your record, electibility, and credentials, it has nothing to do with misogyny. Case and point: Margarat Thatcher, first woman Prime Minister, utter fucking disaster.


Oh and Virginia Democrats are hardly what I would call the "Conservative Christian South".

[cbayer]

37. I find it odd that someone would post this, then just disappear. nt.

[goldcanyonaz]

42. I wouldn't, they are obviously upset and rightfully so.

[Auntie Bush]

64. I didn't disappear! I was busy reading another long post on this board and.

was listening to Hillary's speech. I had no idea so many people would respond. I checked back to see and was astounded at the response! Had I checked back sooner...I'd have corrected the spelling earlier. :blush:

[cbayer]

77. No harm meant. I just really wanted you to come back and correct your spelling! lol. nt.

[goodhue]

38. Is that like Miso and Origami?

Folded paper cranes in soy soup

[JerseygirlCT]

39. A few years back, you might have said the same wrt pipelines

and rising African Americans. It's just not really true for women, either. And Hillary Clinton is most definitely a particular person with a particular history and family. I don't think you can put the fate of female presidential candidates all on her shoulders. She goes into this with very high negatives. Perhaps some because she's a woman, but I think far more for reasons peculiar to her as an individual.

I would love to see a woman in the WH. But right now, I think Obama is the better candidate. And I don't vote for or against anyone because of their gender.

[HughBeaumont]

41. Well, this was productive.

Jesus Christ. It's not because she's a woman, it's because she's not a strong candidate nor is she that representative of progressive ideals.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/31
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/32

And it's kind of presumptuous to think that Hillary, who used to be a Goldwater Girl, is the only woman who's fought her whole life for liberal causes. I think some of the fine Code Pink women would have just more than a bit to say about that statement.

[theboss]

44. Why...why...they'd even choose a Nigra over a woman-folk

How awful.

[OzarkDem]

45. As many in this thread have demonstrated, misogyny is considered "hip"

Thanks to the news media, men and women have lower opinions of women than anyone has seen since the 1950's.

Date rape, domestic violence, poverty among single women - all fodder for late night "laddie boy" shows.

[woolldog]

47. What's interesting

Is that HRC has ended up marginalizing herself as the female candidate, ironically in the way she tried to marinalize Obama as "the black candidate". Obama wouldn't allow her to marginalize him that way, but where she failed with Obama, she's succeded in painting herself into that corner.

She hasn't made any effort to woo male voters. And in her effort to connect with women voters, she's ended up alienating male voters.

For example, why did she pick the "Hallmark Channel" to air her townhall? This will alienate men.

Another example: her frequent crying episodes. This also alienates men who will either view it as insincere and an attempt at female manipulation or, if they view it as sincere, feel that she won't be strong enough to be president.

Her campaign rallies are usually filled with older white women, which doesn't convey an aura of inclusion and make men feel welcome--even men who are just watching on tv. They look like the local chapter of an Oprah book club.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Windy]

49. Women are voting for Obama too.. INTELLIGENT WOMEN who think for themselves!

Please. This is getting ridiculous out of some of you. Down right offensive!!

Hillary's purely political vote on the war is what I believe is killing her in the primaries.
I've said it here numerous times. She voted to send our military men and women off to die so she wouldn't look weak to republicans in the general election she thought she had in the bag.

Ambition trumped what was right!

[VotesForWomen]

132. women have also resisited every advance in women's rights since day one. whether they vote for

obama or not has no bearing on whether gender is a factor in people not choosing the female candidate.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. HILLARY Now, OR, Men for the Next 30 years?

So there is NO young woman this country that could/might win the presidency in the next 30 years? Need I remind you that the minimum age for a US President is 35? That means someone who is 15 now could be destined to rise above your glass ceiling on her own merit and be elected President of the United States?

How far down the "pipeline" can you see? All the way to sophomores currently in high school?

"She's dedicated her whole adult life fighting for our liberal causes. What other woman has done that?" As a man, I surely wouldn't deign to disagree with you in public about that statement, but in private I'd tell you that you were full of shit because sometimes people fight for causes WITHOUT hoping for any kind of reward or publicity.

Furthermore, the "South" isn't necessarily a place where "woman are suppose to gracefully bow to their husbands wishes and opinion". You assume much.

[Cha]

52. Disingenousness lives ON!

You poor thing.

[Johnny__Motown]

53. 8 women currently serving as Governor

5 of them are Dems, If you remove Grandholm because she is from Canada you have at least 4 strong candidates for the first women president.


IMO all of these women have far more executive experience as Sen. Clinton.

Honestly, if the first women president was elected (in part) because her husband did it first then the chances of there ever being a second woman president goes way way down.

Hillary is a flawed candidate no matter the gender. The feminist movement would do better in the long run if she loses. She has proven that the country is ready to accept a woman as a serious contender for the presidency, it will be more productive if a woman is elected without ridding her husband's coat tails.

[VotesForWomen]

133. 8 out of 50? and as of the '90s we had 2 out of 100 female senators. nope, no bias against women the

there.

[tammywammy]

54. Um, no. I don't vote base on race OR gender

I'm not voting for her because she's a woman and I'm not voting for Obama because he's a man. Period.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. You really don't think too much of your fellow women, do you?

Hillary Clinton is hardly the only outstanding female politician out there. You're not saying much for your candidate, or women in general when you post things like that. Christine Gregoire, Kathleen Sebellius, and my own guv Janet Napolitano are three I can think of right off the top of my head.

Besides, it's not like it's over yet.

[HeraldSquare212]

56. In corporate America, my experience has been

the order goes, white women, black women, then black men.

[rosetta627]

57. You are so blind.

Hillary voted for war and thereby betrayed the people and lost their support.

It has nothing to do with gender.

[Redstone]

59. Bullshit.

Redstone

[no name no slogan]

60. If Hillary were Shirley Chisholm, I'd vote for her IN A SECOND

But Hillary's DLC-friendly platform does not sit well with this white, male, heterosexual progressive Democrat.

I'm not supporting her because she's a woman. I'm not supporting her because she's not progressive enough on the issues that matter to me.

[opiate69]

61. Here's a woman I would almost certainly vote for for POTUS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Murray

[Whisp]

63. she is a strong woman when it comes to her personal

needs and desires.
she is weak when it comes to leading the way for positive change for most of the rest of us.

I will Never Ever forget how many women and children, and men and boys she had a hand in, in the suffering and death and misery in Iraq, for almost 16 YEARS.

I'm sorry you are feeling so bad about this, but if she is elected and continues the bloodshed and stripping of the constitution - she may be the very one to stunt any chance for another, decent more humane and feminist woman to take that office.

[Auntie Bush]

70. Hillary isn't responsible for all those deaths or the war in Iraq any more than

the large majority of the Senate or Kerry, Edwards, Biden and many others.
Hillary didn't start this War! Her vote one way or the other wouldn't have made a bit of difference. It was a drop in the bucket. Can't you see that?

What makes you think if Obama had been in the Senate at the time and wanted to run for the presidency and had access to the same intelligence as Hillary...wouldn't have voted the same as Hillary? I absolutely think he wouldn't have wanted to appear as soft on defense.

[Whisp]

76. where did I say 'all' those deaths?

her vote for it gives her a percentage of the responsibility.
why was it so hard for her to stand up to what was the right thing to do, to know what so many millions of us knew was a wrong wrong war, ono a people that had already suffered so miserably since Gulf war 1?. Even tho her one NO! vote may not have changed anything, it's the point of taking a stand, and being right.

and please don't give me a list of the other warmongers or stupidos who voted the same way. You are talking about Hillary here.

and I have no idea what Obama would have done, cystal ball is out at the shop.

[JimGinPA]

68. There are a lot of Women I WOULD vote for...

Just not Hillary. She doesn't pass the smell test. Too phoney, too polarizing to ever win a GE.

[Colobo]

69. Obama is a better candidate than she is. That's why he's winning now.

[loveangelc]

71. PLEAAAAAASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

as a woman i will be sooooo happy when obama wins.

[LordJFT]

72. A lot of women have voted against her

[VotesForWomen]

135. women have also resisited every advance in women's rights since day one. whether they vote for

obama or not has no bearing on whether gender is a factor in people choosing to vote against the female candidate.

[LordJFT]

183. Their are more people voting for her because she's a woman than voting against her

because she's a woman. The DLC and centrism are on the downswing and if she were a man Obama certainly would have won this by now.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

73. Nonsense.

This old white woman would love to see a woman president, but not necessarily that woman. I'll be happy to vote for her if she's nominated, but my opinion about her has everything to do with her policies and positions as a candidate and nothing at all to do with her gender. Some other women (Barbara Boxer, for example) would probably do better and stir up more enthusiasm among progressives. I might also add that Clinton's campaign has been very flawed. Mark Penn sucks as a strategist, and Bill has done some damage as well. Who knows how much better she might have done with a more competent campaign organization?

[Sparkly]

75. I don't even have to read the responses: "Just not HER."

That's always been said! "Just not THAT one."

Edit: I mean said about other women, not just HRC, and other people in similar circumstances...

But I agree -- people, even "progressives" and "liberals," are NOT aware, much less sensitive, to sexism or misogyny. This has definitely been an eye-opening experience for me!

[JeanGrey]

79. Nonsense. It has nothing to do with it.

[HeraldSquare212]

80. Um, Barbara Boxer, maybe? nt

[ddeclue]

81. White WOMEN didn't vote for Hillary either...your basic premise is wrong.

If white WOMEN support Obama over Hillary then are THEY misogynists TOO?

[VotesForWomen]

137. women have also resisited every advance in women's rights since day one. whether they vote for

obama or not has no bearing on whether gender is a factor in people choosing to vote against the female candidate.

[AtomicKitten]

83. racism > misogyny right now in America

IMO

[Rowdyboy]

84. If I vote Obama I'm a misogynist, and others say if I vote Clinton I'm a racist

As a southern white male I don't see how I can win this one :shrug:

[donsu]

85. I just gave you a heart for truth telling

nt

[Radical Activist]

86. There are a lot of other women I'd vote for but not Hillary.

There are many reasons why Hillary is a bad candidate who doesn't attract voters that have nothing to do with her gender.

[BlackVelvet04]

91. sure

[NeedleCast]

87. or it could be that people just liked Obama more

[Crunchy Frog]

88. There's a lot of women I'd that I'd support for president,

but not Hillary. It has absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman, it's who she is in particular that I find objectionable (as a presidential candidate), and I would venture to suggest that I'm not the only voter in the country who feels that way.

I understand your feelings, but I think you are reading far, far too much into this in terms of how it relates to the electorate's support for female candidates.

I personally am very hopeful that we'll see a woman president sometime in the next 30 years, maybe alot sooner than that. :)

[femrap]

89. Black men got the vote decades before

women did. I think it was over 50 years in fact.

I remember reading that Frederick Douglas, after getting the vote, ridiculed Susan B. Anthony...after she had worked so hard. She never got to vote...legally, that is.

As John Lennon said, 'Woman is the n*gger of the world.'

[George_Bonanza]

104. Yeah, Blacks got to just waltz into polling stations right after the Civil War, didn't they?

Dumbass.

[femrap]

115. There were a number of Black men elected

then...of course the white men then organized and put a stop to that.

And since you insulted me by calling me a dumbass...I'm gonna give you some damn good advice: there's a surgical procedure available in foreign countries that removes a couple of ribs from the male so he can suck his own penis. Maybe you should check that out. Just think if millions of men had the surgery...there would be WORLD PEACE!

Now...go run along, george.

Been nice talking to ya. This is the last time that will happen.

[JVS]

116. Well, until reconstruction ended.

[VotesForWomen]

141. nice dodge. why didn't congress just include women in th 15th ammendment, if there was no bias

against women voting equally with blacks? and why did congress and many americans resist woman's right to vote for another 50 years if there was no bias against women?

[Spider Jerusalem]

185. White women in 1920 didn't have to worry about getting lynched for voting, either.

Your historical ignorance is showing.

[BlackVelvet04]

90. And now all the

disavowals of how they really want a woman president but just not Hillary. And the next woman to run won't be quite perfect enough either. They can hold their noses and vote for someone if that someone has a penis but they have such lofty ideals that they just can't vote for Hillary. What a bunch of bullshit.

All power to the penis.

[Radical Activist]

92. So basically

not supporting Hillary automatically makes one a sexist in your eyes. That's incredibly unfair and frankly, sexist.

[BlackVelvet04]

97. But true. n/t

[Radical Activist]

100. LOL

You've got to be kidding me. Is there any way to not support Hillary without being sexist?

What about the female radical feminists I know who don't support her? Do they hate women too?

Does the fact that I've spent many hours volunteering for women running for other offices still make me a sexist?

[BlackVelvet04]

109. As I've said before....

if the high heel fits.

[Radical Activist]

123. I think I know

where the high heel fits and its not on your foot.

[Zhade]

103. No, not true.

Stop being racist by not supporting Obama!

(See how ridiculous your argument is when turned around? YOU'RE WRONG.)

[Auntie Bush]

122. Here's to the penis

:toast: Long my it live! :evilgrin:

[Jamastiene]

195. Ah, the almighty penis.

If only our clits were larger and our breasts smaller, we might be considered valid human beings with brains and abilities, but alas, we are just bitches and hos and mothers for them to fuck.

[fortyfeetunder]

93. I beg to differ -- A woman CAN win the Presidency.

If Mrs. Clinton wins the Democratic nomination, then I will support her. But at the moment she is not the candidate I support in the primary. And I'd imagine there are other DUers who feel the same way.

[IndieLeft]

94. Please... that is a pathetic argument. Really... It is.

[saltpoint]

96. Auntie Bush, I love ya, but what do you mean no other woman has

dedicated a lifetime to liberal causes?

That's just not true.

[Auntie Bush]

118. I love ya too, but

:loveya: you misunderstood what I said. I meant that I don't think there are any other woman in the pipeline that are ready to successfully run for the presidency. You are right that hundreds have dedicated a lifetime to politics and liberal causes. But, I just don't see any of them running for president in the near or far future...and winning. I believe Hillary...like her or not...was our first and last opportunity for a female president in my/your lifetime...and that make me sad. Who knows...maybe someone will surprise me. I'm open to surprises. Like maybe Michele will run in 8 years as she'll have had enough "experience" by then...and I'm not kidding...she's quite a woman!

[saltpoint]

171. Ah, then yes, I did misunderstand you. Sorry about that.

Well, I hear you that Sen. Clinton was an extremely high-profile female potential president, but agree with you that there can always be folks out there who surprise us with their potential.

More people than ever distrust conventional approaches to problem-solving in politics because they've seen it diluted and corrupted so much by now that they watch Jon Stewart and ignore the cable news heads. I think that's healthy because the cable news heads have a lot to answer for, and so far, we're not hearing any good answers.

Out of that shift in perceptions, there's likely to be some permanent changes. Either HClinton or Obama would herald a new age -- a first female or a first Afro American chief executive -- and so we're watching History set up shop here.

IMO, Sen. Clinton's slide in polling is not owed to her gender but to her husband's political chums. I wasn't terribly impressed with that bunch in the 90s and I don't like them any better now. She ought to have gone with all new people, because she's a far stronger candidate in her own set of references than she is as her husband's wife.

[Lorien]

98. I honestly feel that there are other, more qualified women who could

be President. But yes, I do agree that misogyny is more widely practiced in this country than racism. This primary season has made me realize just HOW MUCH contempt exists for me out there because of my gender. I've even seen some of the ugliest and most hateful statements right here on DU!It makes me feel pretty hopeless about the future.

[Orangepeel]

99. Clair Mccaskill, Janet Napolitano, Kathleen Sebelius

I'm 39, and there will certainly be a woman president in my lifetime. I don't believe it will be Clinton, because I don't believe she'd beat McCain. But there will be one.

[Zhade]

101. Complete bullshit, of course. Why don't you support Obama, you racist?

(That's pointed sarcasm, btw.)

[zulchzulu]

102. Not true AT ALL

Plenty of people want to vote for a woman for President...just not Hillary.

I'm talking about women who have told me.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

156. I agree with you

I'm a woman and I really don't want Hillary to be president. Although I WANT a Female president, just not her this time.

[canadian_is_cold]

105. Sick of the crying

I think it has little to do with Hill being a woman, and much more to do with the fact she is the wrong woman. People just don't like/trust her. Maybe the creepy smile and the cackle are starting to freak everyone out.

[theHandpuppet]

170. And here's a nother perfect example why some might suspect sexism

The language in your post is very revealing -- at least to those willing to admit it.

[Jamastiene]

197. I'm sick of trolls too, but I don't get my way either, now do I? n/t

[Garbo 2004]

106. Men have been voting for women Reps, Senators, Governors for some time now.

You don't think within another 30 years there will be more women candidates? And there will be no one as "strong" & "qualified" as Hillary?

And Hillary is not the only woman who has spent her life fighting for liberal causes. By suggesting so you dismiss those who have.

Good grief. I've been around for a while and know the changes I've seen just within my lifetime. Hillary's not necessarily the "last stand" for a woman President.

I wouldn't be surprised if we do have a woman President within the next few decades, if not next year. (I just hope she won't be a Republican.)

[VotesForWomen]

143. not quite in numbers equal to the male reps they've been voting for, and that is the point. no one i

is saying that in america in 2008 no one (especially no man) will vote for any female candidate. of course no one is saying that. that doesn't change the fact that there is still a degree of gender bias, and it may very well be enough to prevent a woman from being elected president for a long time.

[leftofthedial]

108. I know several Democrats very well who do not support Hillary

not one of them opposes her because she is a woman. They don't like her policies or her record.

not one of them could possibly be described as a misogynist.

this is BS. her strong showing so far is PROOF that a woman can succeed at any level of American politics.

[Forkboy]

110. I think you sell women short.

If Hillary doesn't win this primary there is absolutely no hope for a woman president for at least the next 30 plus years.

She may or may not may not have what it takes (by today's ever shifting standards), but I can see a woman being President before you. :shrug:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

111. I'm afraid you are absolutely right

[alphafemale]

113. With this logic people who didn't vote for Lieberman are antisemitic?

And I think you are being really demeaning to women to say that this is the last shot for a woman for a generation or better.

I'm mean :wtf:

[uppityperson]

114. Another woman might get more votes. I don't like THIS woman's politics.

I feel very bad because I would love to have a woman in the white house as President, but not this one. That said, I am voting for whomever gets the Dem nomination.

[donheld]

117. Oh stop already!

Just because Mrs Clinton isn't making it does not mean a woman can't win (maybe even Mrs Clinton) in 8 years.

[ellisonz]

119. Not for Hillary. For Boxer or Pelosi, in a heart beat.

[ButterflyBlood]

124. This thread is very insulting to all the women who have voted for Obama

Which is a lot.

[ellisonz]

136. I assume that was to the OP?

[ButterflyBlood]

142. Yes. n/t

[JackRiddler]

120. I'd trample grandma - sorry, grandpa - in my rush to vote for Jane Fonda.

So there.

[Straight Shooter]

121. How many times in this thread, "but not Hillary." Congratulations to the media.

Act I: george w. bush.

Act II: I'd vote for a woman (but not Hillary.)

Act III: A little hint of terrorism, a little saber-rattling with Iran, and hello President McCain

The media, GOP controlled, has villified Hillary Clinton for years. If they had treated her with the respect and decency she deserves for staying strong despite being insulted and smeared relentlessly by the right wing, things might be different.

The next woman who aspires to be president will be picked apart, too, and we'll be hearing, "Oh, I'd vote for a woman. Just. not. her." Unless it's a Republican. And then she'll be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

125. "Misogamy is more ingrained into our society than racism."

Really the next time owmen are followed around in stores because they are assumed to be thieves lets talk about that..

[WCGreen]

126. Oh I hope that HRC isn't the only woman in the pipeline...

Look at the state level to see where the rising stars will be...

[bridgit]

127. correct enough, in a world where rappers make millions there's always plain old misogyny...

some cultures feel it's part of their MO i.e. Bobby Cutts/Tom Sizemore, etc; for others 'white guilt' will take up the rest of the slack

[Jamastiene]

199. Yeah, we are just bitches and hos.

That's all we are to them no matter what.

[VotesForWomen]

128. i'm afraid that you're right. nt

[Arugula Latte]

131. Just a questioN: Did you ever stop to consider it's more than Hillary being a woman?

Seriously, I'm a white woman and I cannot warm up to Hillary, no matter how hard I try. I think she will be a weak general election candidate, and I have plenty of other issues with her. Yes, I'm sure some of the dynamic at work is misogyny, but that explains only part of her lack of popularity. Part of it is plain old Clinton/Dynasty fatigue. Part of it is her IWR vote. Part of it is the perception that she's just a DLC hack. And so on. You know all the rest of the marks against her, just as I'm sure you know the marks against Obama.

[VotesForWomen]

134. did you ever consider that more than one factor could be at work?

[Arugula Latte]

140. Well, yes. That's basically what I said in the post.

Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of people who won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. But there are also many, many of us who don't want her as our candidate for a myriad of reasons that don't have anything to do with her gender.

[VotesForWomen]

144. okay, but a degree of gender bias could make the difference in a tight election. nt

[bling bling]

145. It's not misogyny if people genuinely feel Obama is the better choice.

Your post makes me feel bad because I'm empathetic. I get that your heart is invested in this campaign. I understand. Because I can tell you that if Obama loses I will truly be crushed and I don't know if I could recover and care about politics anymore. I really feel so strongly that our country would benefit from Obama, that my heart is invested in it too. I keep telling myself that if I want Obama to win I need to keep believing in myself because he truly stands up for what I believe in.

I want to be represented by a woman too. But this time I think Obama can do the best job of healing the anger and rage in this country and set our sights down the positive path and steer us away from the negative politics of hate and division. I'm desperate to have that kind of leadership right now. Clinton and all the hatred against her and the divisiveness is, in my mind, the WORST possible way to start off a woman in the high office. She brings out the worst in a lot of people. I'm tired of the obnoxiousness and childishness in government.

But besides all that. Some of us empathetic people are empathizing with the women in Iraq right now who have lost their husbands and children and for what? Seriously. For what?????? As an *American*, it's more high-minded, IMO, to vote for someone on our side who can't in any way be connected to giving George Bush the blank check to invade and destroy another country. If I lived in Iraq, I would feel like the Americans were sticking their middle finger at me if they chose Clinton over the man who cautioned *against* that god-awful horrific, unforgiveable invasion.

I've studied feminism. I nearly minored in it instead of sociology because I took so many classes on the topic of feminism. There are a ton of relevant and significant discussions to be had about women and women's issues in this country and the history of misogyny. Choosing Obama over Clinton doesn't count as misogyny. Particularly when Obama is truly a formidable opponent. That's the understatement of the century. Obama is truly one of the most remarkable politicians we've had on our side in my lifetime.

I am so proud to be an Obama supporter. Proud as a woman. Proud as a feminist. Proud as a Democrat. Proud as an American. I stand proudly with every man and woman who supports Obama.

[eridani]

146. Well, yes. However--

I don't want our first woman president to have voted in favor of Kyl/Lieberman and cluster bombs.

[Norwood]

147. And the beating of the dead horse continues

Just because some people think Obama would be a better leader does not make them sexist. The vast majority of people who do not support Hillary are not sexist. In fact I think that you asserting that not voting for Hillary is sexist, is in itself sexist.

[TLM]

148. Yeah, that must be it...

"If Hillary doesn't win this primary there is absolutely no hope for a woman president for at least the next 30 plus years."

And if she wins the primary, and loses in the GE?

Will that flood the political landscape with women?

[cooolandrew]

149. I don't see the 30 years thing. That's a very large number.

[cooolandrew]

150. The last reason HRC's campaign is failing is misogyny.

[Jamastiene]

198. You must have blinders on.

I'd give it more like 50 to 75 years.

[adabfree]

151. oH Boy

Sorry, IMO

She isn't on top because people don't like her, not because she's a woman.

[JTFrog]

152. Get over it. "Your girl" is horribly flawed as a candidate.

And you degrade women everywhere by claiming it's misogyny. I would love to see a woman president. In fact in 2006 I was in Hillary's camp.

But I didn't drink the kool-aid just because she was a woman. I don't appreciate her war votes on behalf of the mothers and women in this country. I don't appreciate her remaining silent against the telecoms while they spy on Americans, even the mothers and women. I don't appreciate her helping Mr. Bush gut the constitution and then remain silent about restoring our rights, not just the rights of women. I don't appreciate her using the woman victim card to try to manipulate women into voting for her.

"There is no real outstanding female raising star even in the pipeline." Yes there is and some that aren't even owned by the special interest groups yet. Are we willing to give them a shot or will we always put our eggs into the basket with the most money?

She shouldn't have run as the "first woman" to have a shot, she should have run as a great Senator from New York. She could have easily focused her campaign on more substance than that if there was any.

* on edit - and I would think that as close as she came, you would realize that people took her seriously as a woman and as a candidate. Now you are going to put more onus on women because Hillary isn't winning. Please stop.

[Mass]

154. You are asking what women dedicated her adult life to fight for progressive women? If you have to

ask, it is the sign that you are the one who lives in a cult and is misogynistic. not us women who support Obama.

I feel sorry for you, if this is what you think. Because, sincerely, this is far from being the case, and I think that Hillary Clinton hurt their chance by seeming to say that a woman could only be elected on her husband record. And it may be the very thing that killed her. The fact that people did not want another 8 years of Clinton rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

155. Biggest pile I have seen here.

:eyes:

[Gin]

157. A male co-worker stated yesterday he wouldn't vote for Hillary

because she probably wouldn't keep her pants on any better than Bill. He complains about Bill and the blow job.....me thinks jealousy rears it's ugly head.

He has a wife who is very passive....never worked..calls multiple times a day...and listening to him talk with her...it is easy to surmise that he is "The Man of the House!" So there was no surprise when he made derogatory comments about the female candidate.

[Mass]

160. If he speaks about the BJ, he is probably Republican in the first place.

[Thepricebreaker]

158. What? That is the stupidest thing I HAVE EVER HEARD.

She is losing because SHE ISN'T THE BEST CANDIDATE.

Being a strong woman gives her the keys to the white house?

What kind of bullshit is that? Its the best candidate - period.

[Jacobin]

159. So, its bad for a democrat to vote against a woman candidate even

if her positions SUCK?

don't go away mad. just go away

[Vinca]

164. "a wonderful well deserved milestone for blacks" -

you answered your own post. It's as important for the black community as it is for women. Someday a woman will be president, it just might not be this time around.

[boricua79]

165. I'd vote for Michelle Obama or several women out there

I won't vote for Hillary.

Not about sex, it's about Hillary and her DLC lifestyle.

[displacedtexan]

167. Did you see CNN's Virginia exit poll data?

Pretty much expresses your OP.

[Maribelle]

168. You are correct regarding the Conservative Christian South that demands women be subservient ...

and explains some of the reasons actual statistics point to the high divorce rate in the south.

[EffieBlack]

169. Please don't be discouraged

There are lots of reasons that people would not vote for Hillary that have nothing to do with her being a woman, just as there are plenty of reasons for people not to vote for Obama that have nothing to do with his race.

One of the difficulties about being a woman or a minority in these situations is that we are held to a higher standard, not just in performance, but also in success. White men win and lose succeed and fail all of the time without it being extrapolated to mean something about their entire group. On the other hand, female and minority pioneers are not allowed to succeed or fail on their own, but if they succeed, it is seen as a success for the entire group, but if they fail, it is seen not only as a failure of the whole, but also can be used to taint everyone.

Please don't fall into that trap. Hillary is an amazing woman and is running a strong, inspirational race that anyone would be proud of. If she doesn't win, don't assume it's just because she's a woman - even if gender does have some role in it. It will immobilize and frustrate you. She's gone farther and higher than any woman has gone in politics, against tremendous odds. Be proud of that and keep your head up. If she doesn't win (and, of course, she still could!), cry for a bit and then pick yourself up and work your ass off to ensure that the next woman who comes along (in fact, first work your ass off to BRING her along) does even better. And she will, because Hillary laid the groundwork.

Hang in there. Don't give up. It gets better. Honest.

[marions ghost]

177. very well said

yes --it is a trap --to extrapolate that because Hillary may fail in her bid then other women cannot succeed.

Many HRC supporters are voting economics rather than gender. They imagine a return to the 90's days of prosperity and Hillary riding on Bill's coattails appeals to them. The Billary Supporters, if you will.

I want to vote for a woman who does not have the shadow of her husband's previous presidency as either a negative OR a positive.

Agreed we should give Hillary much credit for her significant accomplishments in a turbulent and cutthroat political atmosphere.

[ProSense]

172. Hillary is not a victim

NOW-NYS pres on the "gang raping" of Hillary (disgraceful attempt to portray Hillary as a victim)

The facts: Hillary is running a divisive campaign that is backfiring.

[Medusa]

173. No, she just plays one on TV

:eyes:

[mckeown1128]

174. Hillary's supporters continue to give feminism a bad name.

Screaming sexism because your candidate is losing is pathetic. When Obama was down after loses in Nevada and New Hampshire, did you hear his supporters screaming racism? NO because that isn't why he lost. Hillary didn't lose because she is a woman. She's been losing this week because Obama fought a better campaign than she did.

[formernaderite]

175. my wife didn't vote for her either

It's not because she's a woman...it's because it's this woman, Hillary. I couldn't care less what the sex of the candidate is either. In my rosy world, Dennis would have become President. Reality is what you have at hand. Hillary is NOT a good example of how to get to the top. Quite a few of us disagree that she is wonderfully suited for the job. Just because she was married to the president...does NOT make her a President in training. Sheesh...that's like saying, I could be an engineer because my wife has been one for thirty years.

[Samurai_Writer]

176. It's not misogyny, it's about Hillary herself

I'm a staunch feminist, and I'm voting for Obama. Why am I not voting for Clinton? Because of Clinton's voting record on key issues, not apologizing for her IWR and Iran votes, her insurance industry lobbyist buddies, the fact that we don't need another family dynasty in the presidency, her no-show for the telecom immunity vote, among many other reasons. We need change in this country, not more of the same. And I see Clinton as more of the same. Also, in a general election, Clinton will polarize the voters even more than Obama. There are so many non-politically aware voters who would never vote for Clinton just because she's Hillary Clinton, and would vote for McCain if Clinton is the Dem nominee. Obama has a broader appeal and could win the GE over McCain.

[cap]

179. Leaning Obama... but willing to acknowlede the misogyny

I am leaning Obama... but we have to acknowledge the misogyny in SOME of the attacks on Clinton. There is a lot of denial in American society about racism and misogyny. The classic defense is that I AM NOT RACIST OR MISOGYNIST, but that particular person is defective... and, yet, somehow, the next person is defective and the next and the next...

Why don't we start to acknowledge that there has been a lot of unfairness in the opposition to both our candidates? Right now Hillary is getting the worst. Many attacks on her are personally denigrating. Bush sr. crying over GW hosing Jeb's chances for the Presidency has received none of the attention that Hillary tearing up (but not crying) does.

However, there is a lot of closet hatred going on in the hinterland about Obama. I am hearing the N word being used... and stories about how in the old days, N------s were run out of town...what the speaker was implying is too terrible to think of. (BTW, I tried to start a thread about this but it got hijacked and the moderator rightfully closed it down). I am seriously getting concerned that the old nasty boys are going to be up to their dirty tricks in the rural areas. I am getting worried about more than just voter intimidation... and I am worried about safety of rural African American Americans. Yes, I am worried about the rise of the Klan.

The two are related and to think that those who have their guns trained on Hillary are not going to be turning them very quickly on Obama is very naive. After building up Obama so much, they will pick on him with a vengeance. Watch and see. We will see them crank up the meme that somehow Obama is very much less than competent.

After watching so much misogyny, I am getting very disheartened about the state of women in these United States. Outside of traditional female dominated professions (and law and health care), I just don't see senior women in any great numbers. I see the same tactics used against them -- shunning, name calling, blowing small things out of proportion, etc. My one critique about Obama is that I am not sure that he will do very much to change these things. Where are the women on his campaign (in senior positions) ? We are in need of radical reform to remedy the state of women in this country. No one is talking about this.

When can we come together and understand that the same tactics used on women are the same ones used by racists?

[GumboYaYa]

180. Sour grapes...too bad Hillary is losing.

[GumboYaYa]

181. Sour grapes...too bad Hillary is losing.

[El Pinko]

184. I voted *FOR* Obama, not *against* Hillary.

There are a lot of other people out there who did the same.

Who says it will be 30 years befor another chance for a woman president arrives? How preposterous.

Who says HRC won't be Obama's veep and successor?

And besides, why is it more important to elect a woman president than a black president?

Annd since when should we pick presidents based on race and gender anyway?

[Iktomiwicasa]

187. another logical fallacy

man voting for Obama = misogynist.


Bullshit

[alphafemale]

188. And were people not voting for Elizabeth Dole in 2000 misogynist too?

Sorry but this argument is really tired.

If Condeleeza Rice were to run, would NOT voting for her make a person both Sexist and Racist?

[Jamastiene]

189. Yeah, we are just servants, bitches, hos, and objects to

fuck, slap around, deny shoes, and cook, cook, cook. We are worthless 'droids. Let's face the truth. We are nothing but a warm, wet hole to fuck and an object to be abused. That's the facts. Nobody can deny it with a straight face. Not if they want to keep any credibility with me.

[dcindian]

196. Flip flopper here

I voted for Hillary before voting against her.

Does that mean I hate women now but not before?

[Jamastiene]

200. It's a troll infestation, I see.

[dcindian]

201. winning any new voters to your side yet with this?

Didn't think so. Wait maybe that was your real intentions all along!

[Jamastiene]

202. I'm certainly not going to kiss any Republican hate mongers ass.

Hold your breath and wait for that, why don't you.