To my fellow Hillary supporters. Should we let them have it?

[Neshanic]

I joke about the Obama supporters, and the Starbucks thing, but should we just step aside and let them go? Judging from tonights results, it seems that our candidate is going to have a tough time.

They are idealistic and really don't care what happens as long as their change guy gets the nomination. It is kind of like lemmings pushing towards the cliff, and nothing can make them change course.

We will have a tough time beating McCain and the republican machine. We will be very lucky if we win.

Just so you can remember though you Obama people, you will be dissapointed. We will never leave Iraq. Not under an Obama administration or a McCain or a Hillary. So you can chalk that up to the first thing that will go sideways for you.

Dreams are tough to deliver. Be prepared.

Oh and don't say you were not warned.

[Fredda Weinberg]

1. It won't help to say, "I told you so" either

I remember the Clintons' disappointment after Bill lost re-election as governor. Remember how they responded?

[Frances]

2. You make valid points

but I will still fight for whoever wins the nomination.

I am old enough to know that it will be a very tough fight and that we could very well lose.

I also know that if either Obama or Hillary wins, there will be major disappointments. But the alternative of a Repub President is worse.

[CountAllVotes]

3. Obama: "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom."

n/t

[Neshanic]

7. Tell yourself that when he as President says that conditions warrant more time in Iraq.

[theHandpuppet]

15. Or when he starts backtracking on a woman's right to choose

Not to mention the GLBTs who will get thrown under the bus when it's time to collect the IOUs.

It will interesting to watch in a morbid sort of way and I will take no pleasure in it.

[krabigirl]

24. that I'm afraid, he will do.

[TankLV]

64. you can BET on it - gays need not apply - we wil be told to sit down and shut up...AGAIN

so as not to offend the black evangelical BIGOTS...don't want to lose THEIR vote now, do they...

[miceelf]

67. oh, geez

He went to a Black church and criticized them to their faces for homophobia. Most Dem politicians only bring up gay rights when asked about it.

[Neshanic]

31. Very true.

[newmajority]

35. Right.... and then he'll enslave white people.

Oh well, at least as an Obama supporter, I'll get to be a "house cracker" :eyes: :eyes:

(do I even need to add the :sarcasm: tag here? Yeah, with this hysterical crowd, I probably do. )

[ArkySue]

9. Yes, but

It's still wisdom, nonetheless.

[Neshanic]

13. Dealing with the truth is wisdom also. Nobody will get us out in their first term.

[krabigirl]

21. Well, I guess I'm sorry then. I am not ashamed to be a bit cynical.

Obama's platitudes don't hurt me.

[stevietheman]

36. Kind of like the saying: "Cynics don't create" -- which is very true. n/t

n/t

[Hill_YesWeWill]

4. Hey, we're all fighting for the same thing here! you're not in some

separate party, we're all democrats here!

[rodeodance]

73. fyi: Obama's first coming

I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[yeswecan08]

5. The Obama mandate will be overwhelming - like tidal forces

[krabigirl]

25. Exactly...like the tidal wave I'm watching right now.

[Gloria]

6. Shelby Steele, Obama's biographer, also believes there will be

lots of disappointment once he drops his mask (those are his words).

What will be his mandate?? Non-change??

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Now you're quoting uber conservative Hoover Institute fellow

Shelby Steele as a credible source?

If it feels filthy, Gloria, it probably is, you know?

[Gloria]

26. No, I heard him speak and know his background and he was very

interesting. He's half black half white and has some knowledge of that situation. He was doing Q and A and was not bashing anyone but quoting Obama's own words as to how to be a "bargainer." He compared the way he operates vs. MLK and Jesse Jackson, who were challengers. Would you like it better if he gushed over him and set him up like Noonan, etc.?

Grow up. Obama is no saint...it wasn't "filthy." Take the blinders off...the guy rewrote his own nuke safety bill to accommodate Republicans. It didn't die a noble death in committee.. he rewrote it and mislead people as to what actually passed. He's misleading people about "universal" health care.

[Booster]

61. I've had the gnawing feeling that Obama's not what he seems.

Unless the first thing he does is make Edwards Attorney General, I have a feeling we will see that he is all for the corporations just like the rest of them. Or when they open his can of worms it will turn people off - they all have a can of worms, some we know some we don't.

[Gloria]

74. Could Edwards make a difference if he has to tangle with Senate

Democrats??? I'm thinking that, overall, he really would have his hand tied...esp. in a "kumbaya" era....

[Joe the Revelator]

8. Let us have it??

By the looks of it, we're winning it pretty well on our own.

[harun]

39. We're going to take it (n/t)

[calteacherguy]

10. Yes We Can!!!! nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. "We let them win..."

The rallying cry of petulant fourth graders everywhere.

:eyes:

[apocalypsehow]

27. My thoughts exactly.

[Catherine Vincent]

12. Let them have what? DU?

That's why I have always said I will support whomever the nominee will be.

[Neshanic]

16. So will I, but expecting the world to reverse orbit is not realistic.

Expecting him or anyone to get us out of Iraq is unrealistic.

[Catherine Vincent]

20. I don't think that is why they support Obama. Most of them don't give a hoot about that.

In the beginning, all we heard was "anybody but Clinton" and "the media is chosing our nominee... blah blah blah."

[Neshanic]

29. Ever hear of under promising and over delivering? Obama apparently has not.

Obama is a huge movement. That's a fact. How big can that ballon inflate? What is the next big thing? How do you deliver on the world of promises?

[adapa]

17. I hear your point but I also look at my pocketbook & say I *can not afford Obama* I need help now

health care premiums up 30% this year
food up
energy up
the only thing not going up is my wages- I didn't get my normal 0.35 cent raise this year.
I have to fight for Hillary cuz she's the only one who's help me. Because of the SCHIP program, I will back Hillary to the end

[Neshanic]

19. I feel for you, she is the experience. But I do not think she will pull this off.

[adapa]

28. then the democrats have screwed up a path to universal healthcare yet again

[Neshanic]

34. Yes, again. The Humana, United, Cigna's of the nation win.

[newmajority]

40. The Humana (Frist) United and Cignas of the nation would win

under Hillary's Romneycare II, when they would be allowed direct deductions from your paycheck, whether you liked it or not.

[adapa]

42. so you don't want health insurance? feeling healthy are you? opps, broken leg, now what?

[meow mix]

18. "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom." -Obama

...

[Neshanic]

22. Meow, look up. We know all the catch phrases.

[krabigirl]

23. Yes, I understand, it's an Obama quote.

[Straight Shooter]

45. "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

George Bernard Shaw.

"Idealism is what precedes experience; cynicism is what follows."
David T. Wolf

"Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth."
Lillian Hellman

"Cynics regarded everybody as equally corrupt... Idealists regarded everybody as equally corrupt, except themselves."
Robert Anton Wilson

The authors of those quotes were far more wise than Barack, and much more experienced and familiar with the ways of the world; thus, the cynicism.

[Neshanic]

48. Nice quotes!

[AX10]

68. Very True!

[sendero]

30. With HRC.....

.... we could expect nothing. More Iraq war, more corporatism.

At least with Obama there is a chance for change. There is no chance with HRC, and that is why she is losing.

She made her bed, she refused to say she'd end the war and she is getting what she deserved.

The idea that she is some kind of savior that could save America or the party is rubbish. She is more of the same, the same old "say one thing vote another" bullshit that we are tired of.

I don't expect much from Obama, the fact is he is inheriting the most godawful mess imaginable, part of it thanks to HRC's senatorial votes.

Anything short of a Republican would be better than HRC, and I have no reversations whatsoever about that.

[Neshanic]

32. This is not about her. It's about his promises. Do they have a limit?

Do they end?

Even the most reasonable person knows in their hearts that he will not get us out of Iraq. He will not be the Democrat that lost the middle east.

[sendero]

69. I don't think..

.. he will get us out of Iraq in a week, but I do believe he is against the war in general, something that cannot be said about HRC.

All politicians promise things they cannot deliver. Whoever takes office is going to inherit an economy in dire straits, a difficult situation in Iraq and elsewhere, and other problems.

I don't expect anyone to be able to perform miracles. I just want someone who at least acts like he will try. I do believe that we have a substantially better chance of getting some meaningful change than we would have with HRC.

[rodeodance]

72. Obama's first coming---its about promises--good questions:

I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?

[TheDebbieDee]

33. I predict that I'll be in the market

for a "Don't blame me - I voted for Hillary" bumpersticker soon after the leader of the Obamacans takes office.

[adapa]

38. I'm with you there- sadly- I really thought we might get on the path to universal heathcare this

election

[Rageneau]

37. Democrats ALWAYS find some way to screw it up.

How many times have we Democrats been in the right, been in the majority, been on the side of good and justice, been organized and anxious -- and lost anyway?

McGovern, Carter/Kennedy, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry -- every single time except when the Clintons were involved -- the Democratic Party (including its rank and file) found some way to shove what should have been victory into the jaws of defeat. And not only have I, personally, had to watch this, I had to watch it happening in real time -- I could see it happening, and I'm seeing it yet again.

In recent years, I've had to watch candidates like Gore and Kerry screw up and not fight back; watch candidates with impeccable military credentials, like McGovern and Carter, turned into Commie quislings by the Pugs and the Press. Over and over, I've seen Democrats outflank themselves by being too fucking smart for their own good.

And I see it happening again. Democrats have made a sensation out of Obama -- made of him not a champion to fight for us, but a Messiah to deliver us. And so we are turning our backs on the most qualified and experienced, most intelligent and well-informed, toughest and most capable candidate our party has ever had -- for what? For "change." WHAT "change?" The good kind.

It's maddening.

Since 1964, only the Clintons have beat the Republicans twice in a row.

But watch our party go off chasing after Obama and blow this oppportunity.

[kurth]

56. Bitter disappointment awaits after the 2009 honeymoon

IF - huge big IF - Obama beats McCain.

[Forkboy]

41. Not a Hillary fan at all, but no, you shouldn't give up.

But your own message is horribly insulting. Idealistic people DO care what happens, just as much as you. I see a lemming like mentality from all sides, but maybe that's just me...and you, eh?

We will be very lucky if we win.

No kidding. In '04 we said a Ham Sandwich could beat Bush and the Repubs. We were wrong. We'll be lucky if either of our choices beats McCain, and if we don't it's a fucking HELL of statement about how sad we've become as a party, something few want to talk about, much to our chagrin and nail biting.

We will never leave Iraq.

No one is getting us out of there anytime soon. Both camps can delude themselves all they want.

Oh and don't say you were not warned.

Where were you ten years ago?

[Neshanic]

47. I am sorry if it is insulting, but it does not change the situation.

I always vote a straight Democratic ticket. Always.

Idealism is wonderfull, but overrated when it comes to politics.

[Forkboy]

51. My father used to say I was too idealistic until I said he wasn't idealistic enough.

I'm willing to bet I'm even more cynical than you, and that's why the inherent cynicism of the Clinton campaign turns me off.

I know my cynicism isn't the answer. Do you?

[Neshanic]

54. I am on more ignores than you, so I think I would win the cynic award.

I am just concerned that when the proverbial check comes in the future, will he cover it?

[Forkboy]

55. Well, I AM pretty likable, so I can understand.

:P

That check has already been cashed, you just don't get it yet.

How that for cynicism? :D

[Neshanic]

58. OK you win this round!

[Forkboy]

62. I'm the Mr.Miyagi of cynicism.

Hate on, hate off. :D

[Neshanic]

63. ROFLMAO!

[Redstone]

43. And since when do you address your fellow Democrats as "THEM?" Also, nice set of

unsupported allegations and ad hominem attack, right there.

Redstone

[Neshanic]

50. Wow Dick Tracy. Any other crimes I have committed?

[Redstone]

57. This doesn't take Dick Tracy. If you belong to a group, you refer to yourself, and the

other members of that group as "us."

Not "them."

At least that's the way it usually works.

Redstone

[Neshanic]

60. Don't dig too deep Sherlock. There's nothing there.

[HeraldSquare212]

44. Thanks, but we'll just take it. nt

[Rowdyboy]

46. The lack of class among some Clinton supporters makes Obama look even better

at least to this Edwards backer. It would if I took seriously any of the horseshit you "supporters" spew

[dailykoff]

49. That would be helpful

and much appreciated.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

52. Maybe it's the best thing for HRC ... she would work

her heart out trying to clean up the mess being left, and she would still be attacked from without and from within.


I believe she would have worked tirelessly to bring about the changes she envisioned ... and to also prove all the haters and nay-sayers wrong. It looks like she may not get that opportunity to prove her dedication and value from a platform where she could really influence change.


She'll continue to serve this country, in a meaningful way, and won't be everyone's favorite voodoo doll.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[moosen]

59. Some day these Obama cultists will enter the real world

and it'll be a harsh wakeup call

[AX10]

65. Some people never learn.

McGovern 72' ring a bell? Mondale 84'?

[BenDavid]

66. not until the last dog dies......

[FrenchieCat]

70. Wow....how disparaging are you?

Your warning does not compute.

Be glad that Hillary is soooo special and priviledged to the point of being able to get away with LOSING 8 states....and still be considered a contender.

If the shoe was on the other foot, Obama would have been history after coming in third in Iowa.

[rodeodance]

71. Good article about promises; Obama's first coming

I think this Oz author raises some valid questions that we should all critically think about.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

Obama's first coming

Washington correspondent Geoff Elliott | February 09, 2008

IT was early 1994 when Nelson Mandela gave a speech in a slum outside Cape Town and spoke in grand terms of a new beginning and how when he was elected president every household would have a washing machine.

People took him literally. A few months later he became South Africa's first black president. That's when clerks in department stores in Cape Town had to turn people away demanding their free washer and dryer.
.......
How does a cult figure, in the eyes of some something akin to a messiah, make the transition to a political frontrunner - president even - where disappointment will soon crush what seemed to be a journey to a promised land?
Looking into the faces of a more than 16,000-strong crowd in a basketball stadium in Hartford, Connecticut this week, the Mandela magic I'd seen before was there too. Black and white, and the youth; they appeared in a state close to rapture watching Obama speak. Here and there one could see women crying and the some men wiping away tears too.
.......
In the US today there are echoes of that Rainbow Revolution. Through the media and on the streets people are getting a bit giddy over Obama. In this man they are projecting a new course - one that he says he will lead - where the US buries the culture wars, charts a new course in bipartisan politics and heralds a new dawn for America. ......
........
And therein lays the danger for Obama. The Obama shuttle has made it into orbit but at some point he's going to have to land this thing back on Earth.
.........
But the danger remains for Obama in managing the cult-like fervour. Obviously, he's no messiah and lofty expectations of his supporters is something that Obama is also acutely aware of. In stockmarket parlance, Obama's share price is soaring on expected future earnings. Clinton, 20 years in the public eye, is like the industrial conglomerate: steady share price and reliable dividends. Think of Obama as Google and Clinton as General Electric.
.............
"We can do this," he told ecstatic supporters on Tuesday night. "It will not be easy. It will require struggle and sacrifice. There will setbacks and we will make mistakes."
But then Obama, in the next sentence, in attempt to appeal to more voters out there, didn't even mention the Democratic Party but instead his "movement" saying: "I want to speak directly to all those Americans who have yet to join this movement but still hunger for change: we need you. We need you to stand with us, and work with us, and help us prove that together, ordinary people can still do extraordinary things".
.........
In his Super Tuesday speech Obama said "we are the ones we've been waiting for", attempting to make the case the time was now to get some "change" in Washington: a post-partisan world where politicians reach across the aisle for the common good. "This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different," he said. "It's different not because of me. It's different because of you."
.......
"Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause - other than an amorphous desire for change - the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is."
I hear that too in the voices of Obama's staff constantly, themselves referring to this "cult of Obama".
"Even if he doesn't go all the way, and I'm not being defeatist, I'm so thrilled to be a part of this and see the size of the crowds turning out," one staffer tells me.
.........
. He may well build an unstoppable momentum. And then the giddiness might evaporate and be replaced with something else. In marketing they call it post-purchase disappointment. If he gets the Democratic Party's nomination another test begins anew: how to turn the narrative which is all about striving for what is possible, to one where people are suddenly asking how are you actually going to do it?