The Roman Empire had 2 great leaders, the US has had 4 so far...

[joeybee12]

...at the most...the latest being FDR (For Rome I consider Augustus and Cesar). Great leaders are few and far between, so to cavalierly label Obama as great already is strange indeed...maybe this will give you Obama-ites an idea as to why your fervor creeps some of us out.

BTW: DU's spellcheck does not recognize Obama! It offered me the option of changing it to Ob ama!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. One destroyed the Republic, the other lost two legions in Germania.

And, of course, they were absolutely horrible people.

Not sure what the benchmark is on "great" here.

[joeybee12]

2. Augustus ruled for 50 years (or so)...he modernized the empire

and brought about a lot of advancements.

FDR is great even though he should have seen Pearl harbor coming...I think you're confusing great with perfect.

[Recursion]

6. The Republic had been effectively dead for a century

The revolution started before the 2nd social war and continued through it -- after Sulla deposed Marius Rome was ruled almost entirely by dictators. And the Republic wasn't remotely democratic, remember; it's not like Senators got elected.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Point.

Yet I still find it hard to find much admirable in Julius Caesar.

[Recursion]

12. I didn't list Caesar either

Julius Caesar was a great general, possibly the greatest in history, and a revolutionary logistician, though. I'll certainly give him that.

[Recursion]

3. Augustus, Marcus Aurelius, Trajan, Hadrian, Marius (pre-Empire), Diocletian

(Roughly in that order, in terms of my preference.)

All of them more or less humane (by the standards of the time) and excellent administrators.

[joeybee12]

4. Lots of good stuff...but I think great would not apply

to most...my point being that the term great is being bandied about much too freely.

[Occam Bandage]

13. Diocletian preserved the empire for centuries. He's like an uber-Lincoln.

[endarkenment]

5. Those fuckwits were brutal dictators who abolished a republic.

The last great leaders of Rome failed to prevent the House of Julia from abolishing the republic.

[Recursion]

8. Not to turn this into a classical history debate, but the republic was already dead

and it had been dead for a century of dictatorial (but non-Imperial) rule before Augustus.

[Occam Bandage]

7. You only give Rome two great leaders? What about Diocletian? Constantine? Marcus Aurelius? Trajan?

Constantine? Hadrian? Claudius?

[Recursion]

10. See upthread

:P

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Spare us from strong leaders. We need servants not leaders.

See Lord Acton's axiom about power for explanation.

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. Four?

Washington, Lincoln, FDR, ?

I can think of three indisuptably great American leaders; great because they led well in formative (Washington) and transformative (Lincoln and FDR) epochs in American history.

I don't think there's a fourth who can be judged on the same level. POSSIBLY Theodore Roosevelt (the transformation of the US into a major world power), but the case for Teddy isn't quite as strong as it is for the others.

[Recursion]

15. Clearly Polk is the fourth

There was a great leader.

[joeybee12]

16. I was thinking Jefferson....perhaps a great thinker as opposed

to leader...Washington is iffy...mainly because he was so reluctant to lead.

[Recursion]

17. I don't think his Presidency ranks among the best

The Louisiana purchase was certainly important, but I doubt even an ardent Federalist would have passed up that deal. TJ's foreign policy was fairly disappointing, from the counterproductive embargo to the degradation of the Navy and over-reliance on privateers.

I think most people would say we had 3 "top tier" Presidents: Washington, Lincoln, and FDR.