To the Clinton camp: Stop the fake outrage over debates.

[totodeinhere]

We all know how this works. The Clintons certainly know how it works. If you are ahead in a campaign, you shun debates. If you are behind, you want to debate as much as you can. It's always been that way in campaigns. And you can be sure that if Clinton were ahead at this point she wouldn't be nearly as eager to debate. This is an excellent indication of where the two camps believe they are at this point. Hillary is behind. And she wants to debate not because she is interested in a discussion of the issues. She wants to debate because she is desperate. It's nothing more or less than that.

It is true that both Clinton and Obama debated 18 times earlier in the campaign. But even though Clinton was perceived to be ahead then, the race hadn't crystallized yet and the stakes were not nearly as high then as they are now.

[jsamuel]

1. except when Clinton was ahead this entire time, she did not shun the debates

Obama is being political where Clinton was not

[KittyWampus]

3. except he already accepted TWO debates more.

[totodeinhere]

5. I already addressed that in my OP.

[yardwork]

2. "fake" outrage is also part of the political process.

If your competitor refuses to debate when it is in your interest to debate, you do and say things to try to persuade your competitor to debate.

[HeraldSquare212]

7. But given the number of debates, and that two more are scheduled,

it's just going to come off as an attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill. It will backfire.

[totodeinhere]

22. That is the case with old politics.

But Senator Obama is saying that we can't afford politics as usual. So yes, fake outrage has been a part of the political process in the past but that is the sort of thing that Senator Obama is trying change.

[yardwork]

50. Seems to me that Obama' dodging debates is "politics as usual."

Thought that was the point of the OP.

[BuyingThyme]

4. I think Hillary would be better off dodging the debates.

She's the establishment candidate, with a campaign based 90% on name recognition. What does she want with debates?

[ORDem]

13. Also, there is a false perception that she is somehow the

better debater. Not so, IMHO. She is one of those people (McCain is even worse) who can not for the life of them make a simple point in less than two paragraphs. She's smart all-right, but that doesn't mean she has terrific communication skills. She tends to show off her wonky side for detail, but loses the audience in the process. Huckabee is not someone I would normally quote let alone listen to, but he had a good one the other day: "America is not looking for someone to fix the carburetor (Clinton), but someone who will drive the car" (paraphrased actually).

:dem:

[Donnachaidh]

42. uh dear?

"can not for the life of them make a simple point in less than two paragraphs."

This too can be applied to Barack Obama. VERY much so. In previous debates his windage was making Joe Biden jealous, and worried about his title as Joe *The Mighty Mouth* Biden.

:eyes:

[TexasObserver]

44. Hillary is the classic example of a person who never learned how to stop talking.

She filibusters every answer, and talks and talks and talks, without any clear understanding of what should be her key points and when she should simply stop talking.

[splat]

6. Dems should get all the free air time available; why would you oppose that if you are a Dem?

And why give orders, anyway?

[applegrove]

8. I think Clinton wants the debates because she is better at them than

Obama. Pure and simple. Pundits had her beating him in most of the match-ups. He is getting better. But debates are her strong suit so of course you play to your strengths.

[TexasObserver]

45. No, she thinks she's better at them, but that's pure delusion.

Look on the scoreboard and see who's behind.

She's fond of her own voice, but it doesn't sell, except to those who already support her.

[TexasObserver]

46. dupe

Obama gets big audiences everywhere he goes. Hillary doesn't. He's drawing ten times her crowds, and she doesn't have nearly the team on the ground to put on events that O has.

She badly needs him to help her get TV time. She could go on TV news by herself, but who is going to watch?

[Beausoir]

9. Obama should be willing to engage in a whole lot of debates. Why won't he?

[ORDem]

15. 18 done and two more coming. That's not enough for you? n/t

[Beausoir]

16. No. That's not enough for me. The more open debates the better. Too bad Obama doesn't feel the

same way. I wonder why?

[stillcool]

28. I think he's way more busy...

than Hillary is talking to people on the ground. Like a real grass roots kind of thing. I'm wondering when Hillary first asked for these debates in Wisconsin. You know, with speaking engagements, scheduling and such. She just agreed to do the Ohio debate yesterday. It's all very confusing.

[samrock]

10. Ohhhh I get it

Now that we are down to just two.. when there is no way to hide behind all the others in the debates.. When the glare of the spot light is most hot.. NOW its ok to shun debates IF YOU are ahead in the race..

[totodeinhere]

12. You don't think that Clinton would be shunning debates if she were ahead?

[samrock]

18. Hmmm

She was WAY ahead all last year up until the last 2 weeks and she NEVER shunned a debate.. So based that that I would say no...

[mckeown1128]

23. doesn't Obama have the right to run his own campaign...

or does he have to campaign the way that Hillary tell's him to campaign?

[rodeodance]

33. are you upset that Hillary is taking him on?

[mckeown1128]

38. Not at all it is to be expected.

What is slightly annoying is the eagerness that her supporters have for consuming her talking points. Of course she wants him to do more debates and of course he is going to run his own campaign the way he wants. I just don't like this school yard bullying thing that is going on. Is she going to call him a chicken next. WTF?

[Perry Logan]

11. Oh all right. OK if we make loud clucking sounds whenever the topic comes up?

[Moh96]

14. nice thread

it is pretty obvious

[Auntie Bush]

17. Maybe she wants to debate because she's always beaten Obama in debates.

That's to her advantage so why wouldn't she want to debate?

[gmudem]

26. If she's beaten Obama so badly in debates

How come she's lost 8 states in a row? This is just lazy whining from a losing campaign. When you're losing you want more debates. That's how it always so Clinton supporters are better off not kidding themselves into thinking Obama is scared to debate her.

They've already debated 18 times and have 2 more planned, so this is absolutely fake outrage.

[Auntie Bush]

40. Maybe winning all those states had nothing to do with the debates.

They were ALL predicted wins before the debates.

Remember...Gore beat bush* in their debate and it didn't effect who won.

[XemaSab]

43. They were all predicted wins?

If the elections had gone according to prediction, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :P

[ericgtr]

19. Let's be clear about this

The only people supporting the calling of more debates are Hillary supporters. They already have debates scheduled, how is that not good enough?

[BigDDem]

20. "If you are ahead in a campaign, you shun debates."

That's old politics.
Where's the "CHANGE!?"

[George_Bonanza]

21. LOL, you're so witty!

In fact, why's Obama even running for president at all? That's the OLD way too!

[samrock]

24. Funny..

Last year Hillary was WAY ahead in the polls allll year and NEVER shunned a debate.. Guess she is a candidate of change.. does not believe in politics the old way..

[totodeinhere]

27. In the early stage of campaigns there is a different dynamic.

It's only after the shit hits the fan that the debate game begins, and Clinton is playing that game.

[totodeinhere]

25. It's Clinton who is raising the debate issue.

It is she who is practicing old politics, not Obama.

[rodeodance]

35. She is one smart woman to push for the debate!!

[BigDDem]

49. He's a coward

[Beausoir]

39. Ouch! Indeed.

[HughMoran]

29. Thier protestations are appropriate

I would be shocked and disappointed in them if they acted any differently.

Thou dost protest too much.

[stillcool]

34. Don't you think..

if a debate in Wisconsin was really wanted, it would have been scheduled before the Ohio debate? Do you think a candidate is required to change their scheduled events because Hillary decides she wants a debate?

[rodeodance]

30. AP story: **Clinton ups pressure for Wisconsin debate with Obama***

Forum Name General Discussion: Primaries
Topic subject Hillary to be in WI for 4 days—“ups pressure for Wisconsin debate with Obama”
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4591403#4591403
4591403, Hillary to be in WI for 4 days—“ups pressure for Wisconsin debate with Obama”
Posted by rodeodance on Thu Feb-14-08 02:03 PM



You go gal~~

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WI_WISCONSIN_CAMPAIGN_WATCH_WIOL-?SITE=WIMAD&SECTION=HOME

Clinton ups pressure for Wisconsin debate with Obama

UNDATED (AP) - Hillary Rodham Clinton continued Thursday to pressure Barack Obama to debate in Wisconsin before Tuesday's primary election.

"Maybe he doesn't want to debate because he thinks he already won or maybe he doesn't want to debate because he doesn't want to answer tough questions, like why his health care plan doesn't cover 15 million Americans," Clinton said in a telephone call from Ohio, where she was campaigning. "He has a lot of questions to answer."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

31. *choke* *gurgle*

[stillcool]

32. She just agreed to Ohio..

after the MSNBC brouhaha yesterday. Barrack's campaign issued a statement ages ago, where they committed to a number of debates, but would not commit to any more because they had a campaign to run. So they added the two debates..the one in Ohio, and the one in Texas. Now Hill/Bill are screaming for a debate in Wisconsin. Logically they had really wanted that debate, that should have been scheduled before Ohio. I think it's just Hill/Bill's politicking style.

[rodeodance]

36. To the OP--I do not need you to ASSume my outrage is 'fake"--

[totodeinhere]

37. I take you at your word of course.

But I was referring to the Clinton Campaign, not individual posters at DU.

[BringBigDogBack]

41. K&R'ed

[TexasObserver]

47. Hillary needs debates to get free TV time and draw audiences.

Obama gets big audiences everywhere he goes. Hillary doesn't. He's drawing ten times her crowds, and she doesn't have nearly the team on the ground to put on events that O has.

She badly needs him to help her get TV time. She could go on TV news by herself, but who is going to watch?

[Seabiscuit]

48. To the Obama camp: Stop the fake disdain over debates.

Face it: Obama's a coward when it comes to having to mouth any words more complex than "hope" and "change" and "fired up".

How do you like it, Toto?