Obama On LGBT Issues

[IndieLeft]

Okay, I have seen thread after of thread attacking Obama for his stance on LGBT issues, especially the comments of McClurkin. I am not going to pretend to agree with McClurkin's point of view, but the way it has come across on here is that he went on and said deplorable things attacking members of the LGBT community.

What I heard him say was his beliefs, based on his faith. I didn't hear him say horrible things. Now, depending on your religious affiliation, you may decide to agree or disagree with what he is saying.

However, I did not hear anything in his statements that would give just cause to blame Obama. In fact, Obama has come out against McKlurkin's comments.

Just because you do not agree with someone, does not mean you do not speak to them. That is the same mentality that George Bush has taken with Iran and Syria. Not talking with your "enemies" is not punishment. If anything, it tells them that you just don't give a shit what they do.

Here are some videos. I think you will find that Obama is definitely on the side of the LGBT community. If you are going to take one instance and hold that against him, then you were probably never going to vote for him anyway, and were just looking for an excuse to support someone else.


Donnie McClurkin's Comments at the Obama Religious Concert
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1dUp16hFzY8&feature=related

Obama is asked about Donnie McClurkin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MIQLwe-MmxY

Obama at LGBT Debate
http://youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1MZ8

CBN News Interviews Obama - On Gay Marriage, Abortion
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNUHs&feature=related

[mondo joe]

1. Are you a GLBT person, or have GLBT issues been a high priority

for you?

[IndieLeft]

That is really none of your business.

However, I do have family and friends who are. Good for them... That's pretty much how I see it. That's how they are, that's cool.

I think that if same sex couples want to get married, or have civil unions... fine. They should have every rights that hetero couples should have.

However, I listen to what Obama has said, and I don't understand why you are up in arms about it.

[QC]

16. And I bet some of your best friends are, too.

One thing I love about DU: I can always find a helpful heterosexual to lecture me on how to be a good little homo.

[sloppyjoe25s]

173. Stupidest comment in history of DU

you just made it.

[TankLV]

183. Actually it was the most intelligent thing on here in a long time and NEEDED to be said - REPEATEDLY

[QC]

192. That's a mighty bold statement coming from someone who's been here for two weeks

and posted a thread naming Obama as the nation's greatest spiritual leader.

[IndieLeft]

208. I've been her for a lot longer than that.

Just because you don't register doesn't make you any less a part of this forum.

I am beginning to wish I would have just kept watching the videos.

I would expect better from the people on a site like this.

[QC]

212. I was responding to sloppyjoe25s. n/t

[IndieLeft]

218. Sorry, taking from all angles...

It's hard to tell who's yelling at me at this point.

[LostinVA]

314. Who did you used to be?

[mitchtv]

235. er... your history on DU

is rather limited

[IndieLeft]

240. Just because you don't register...

I've been coming to this site for 3+ years. Just because I never bothered to register doesn't mean I haven't been here.

Don't pretend to know the first thing about me, because you don't.

[mitchtv]

326. too bad I wasn't responding to your post(Pay attention-self centered)

I read the entire thread I know all I need to know

[11 Bravo]

327. You became an authority on DU history in just 18 days?

Damn, you must be a fucking genius!

[mondo joe]

20. I'm trying to be generous in understand why you don't GET IT.

The dissonance between 0bama's rhetoric and his choices is evident to most GLBT people.

[IndieLeft]

23. I do get it.

And his choices have always been in support of LGBT issues. If you want to throw all that away, just because of one incident, then you have issues of your own.

He has been on the side of LGBT his entire career. That is a fact.

[mondo joe]

28. "I don't understand why you are up in arms about it." No, you don't GET IT, by your

own admission, and don't seem to care to.

Giving McClurkin a forum to reinforce a harmful worldview doesn't support LGBT people.

[IndieLeft]

34. So... It's the word marriage?

Cuz it can't be Obama's stance or his record. It can't be that.

[mondo joe]

37. I understand now - you pretend to want to know the problem, and then when

you are told, you deny it.

There's McClurkin, there's the SINNERS comment, the Newsom snub... read up, and try to have an open mind.

[IndieLeft]

46. Got a link? I gave you a link.

[mondo joe]

51. Again, if you had paid the least bit of attention to GLBT issues you'd know

these things already.

The fact is you don't give a shit.

[IndieLeft]

68. I know more than you think.

And since you won't even bother to PROVE me wrong, that means you know I have a valid point.

[mondo joe]

90. You've made plain you don't care about our lives - just scoring a political point.

Or thinking you are.

[IndieLeft]

92. You have just made plain that you don't believe in logic

and that you prefer to have a closed mind.

[mondo joe]

99. To the contrary: other GLBT posters know what I was referencing. So do others

who have actually followed the issues.

You don't care.

[IndieLeft]

If i didn't care, I wouldn't be on here talking about it.

So, when are you going to give me the link showing Obama saying it is a sin to be gay? Still waiting.

[mondo joe]

109. What you care about is defending 0bama. Not understanding our issues.

** When he spoke about HIV/AIDS to evangelical leader Rick Warren’s congregation at Saddleback Church in California, Obama said, “Like no other illness, AIDS tests our ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes – to empathize with the plight of our fellow man. While most would agree that the AIDS orphan or the transfusion victim or the wronged wife contracted the disease through no fault of their own, it has too often been easy for some to point to the unfaithful husband or the promiscuous youth or the gay man and say ‘This is your fault. You have sinned.’ I don't think that's a satisfactory response. My faith reminds me that we all are sinners.” **


http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid51483.asp

[IndieLeft]

115. Wow, what spin.

Thank you for proving my point.

What he said there, in your own thread...

You do not point the finger at someone because they are this or that. None of us are perfect, and you can't use the bible to demonize gays. We are ALL sinners.

Nice try.

At best, you are confused. At worst... well I won't get into that. I like having an account here.

[Sapphocrat]

175. The wind-burn on your scalp...

...from the point flying over your head like an F-16 must hurt like the dickens.

Did Obama or did he not lump gay men in with "the unfaithful husband or the promiscuous youth" as the "sinners," as opposed to the blameless "AIDS orphan or the transfusion victim or the wronged wife (who) contracted the disease through no fault of their own"?

AIDS orphans
transfusion victims
wronged wives
= innocent victims

unfaithful husbands
promiscuous youth
gay men
= sinners

How hard is that to understand?

[IndieLeft]

222. His point was that you should not be

pointing fingers based on what the bible says.

According to the bible, yes, it is a sin. But so are a lot of things. A lot of stupid things are in the bible, and that was his point.

If you choose to look at it like that, then that is your right.

However, bases on his actions, you MUST condede that it is possible that he didn't mean it like you say.

His actions have to be taken into account when you are listening to him. He has been on the correct side of this his whole political career.

That has to be taken into consideration. Do you really think he meant it like that? Come on.

[Sapphocrat]

243. No, you don't want to go there with me.

"His actions have to be taken into account when you are listening to him."

I do take his actions -- and his "non-actions" -- into account when I am listening to him.

End result: I find his rhetoric utterly empty and meaningless -- increasingly so, exponentially, every time I hear him anew. (And "anew" is generous; he says nothing but the same damned thing in every stump speech.)

Don't bother citing his voting record on LGBT rights; there's no substantial difference between his and HRC's. The difference is: HRC doesn't piss in my cornflakes and tell me it's whole milk. Obama does.

And yes, I "really think he meant it like that," for the simple reason that his aversion to LGBT equality is so ingrained, he can't help but express it, even if he thinks he is choosing his words carefully. If you think all gay folks are so dull in the head as to be incapable of recognizing the "code words" when we hear them, you underestimate our intelligence. We've heard this "love the sinner, hate the sin" shit (translation: homo = sin, sin, sin!) more times than you've seen Marcia Brady get hit in the nose with a football. It's a rerun, baby, and unless you have the attention span of a flea, reruns are pretty damned predictable after the first time around.

Do you know who Carl Jung was? Do you know Jung's take on art? In short, Jung put forward a theory that applies here: The creator of any piece of art exposes something within the artist, whether the artist is aware of it or not, or attempts to disguise it or not. The artist cannot help the truth coming out in what he creates for the public eye, no matter how hard he tries to hide it.

Obama cannot mask his true beliefs behind his pretty words. The not-so-pretty meaning screams through, loud and clear.

By the way, have you read Obama's books?

[IndieLeft]

262. Jung didn't live in the PC world... now did he?

Jung didn't live in a world where one word could completely upturn an entire statement.

You choose to believe Obama was criticizing GLBT, I do not. And neither can prove it, now can we.

I don't think his intent was to insult anyone. I believe he was trying to bring us together.

Look at it how you want. You are not going to change my mind. I choose to give him the benefit of doubt. He has a solid record on this, and I don't believe, based on that record, that he intended anything less than the best.

[Sapphocrat]

274. Oh, I see.

My life experience is just P.C., so it doesn't mean anything.

Got it.

[IndieLeft]

283. You are carl jung? wow. that is a miracle.

[Sapphocrat]

289. You dismiss my life experience in deference to your outsider opinion?

Wow, that is like, so not surprising.

[IndieLeft]

295. The only one being dismissive of anything here is you.

You are dismissive of the idea that could be wrong. I readily have admitted that it is possible I am wrong. It's called having an open mind.

[Sapphocrat]

296. Oh, well, thank you then, for setting me straight, so to speak, on my life experience.

What would I do without you? :eyes:

[IndieLeft]

300. I never tried to speak on your life experience

My comment was on the section you posted about carl jung... I made that clear.

Anything else... has been fabricated in your head.

[Sapphocrat]

305. And we come full circle.

After all, my "faux ourage" is "fabricated in my head," too, right?

[IndieLeft]

307. I already commented this.... somewhere down there... somewhere

I might have been wrong on that... Okay, I was almost definitely wrong on that.

However, I do think your anger is misplaced. It should be on McClurkin. IMHO.

I just don't believe, based on his previous actions and his record, and what he says, and his future plans, that Obama has anything but the best intentions for the GLBT community. I just don't. That's the whole point of this post.

If you want to villify me, go ahead. But I'll say it one more time, just for those who have not already seen me say it...

I think what McClurkin said was not only wrong, but repulsive. I don't agree with his logic, but I respect his right to feel the way he feels.

Perhaps I should have done a better job getting that across initially, but I dind't expect to have that challenged.... (people saying I'm homophobic)

[IndieLeft]

116. I really can't believe you had the NERVE to try that.

You are completely taking his words out of context.

[hulklogan]

122. How is that out of context?

Did he or did he not call GLBT people "sinners"?

Hint: Lumping us in with straight christian sinners IS actually calling us sinners.

[IndieLeft]

126. No, he didn't. He called EVERYONE sinners

and that you shouldn't point your finger at someone because the bible says what they do is a sin.

that is what he said.

MondoJoe is just trying to make it sound like Obama called LGBT sinners. He took it out of context. Obama did NOT say "gays are sinners"
he said we all are sinners.

He was defending the LGBT community by saying stop using the bible to demonize.

That was the point he was making. MondoJoe is purposefully misrepresenting that.

[mondo joe]

133. he perpetuates a label of sinner. For what other group would he use such a justification? None.

more pandering.

[IndieLeft]

141. He was asked a question.

He responded by saying you should point the finger at anyone for their indescressions. We are all sinners.

How is that attacking gays? Because in the bible it says it is a sin? Fuck the bible. That is what he is saying. Stop using it to demonize gays.

This is not an issue that can be resolved by name calling or categorizing. That was his point.

Open your mind. Stop seeing only what you want to see here.

[mondo joe]

177. he gave a lousy answer and based it on gays being sinners.

he doesn't get my vote.

[NMMNG]

195. Being gay is not a sin

Don't you get that? A presidential candidate perpetuating the notion that being gay is a sin or an "indiscretion", as you put it, promotes homophobia. It is vile and wrong.

[IndieLeft]

265. I never said it is a sin.

I don't care if it is. Simply put, if you go by the bible... blah blah blah... it is a sin.

Personally, i don't subscribe that shallow narrow-minded thinking. Love is love, and in fact, the bible does say that NO love is bad.

So there you go.

[hulklogan]

135. MondoJoe hasn't misrepresented anything

Senator Obama thinks everyone is a sinner, including GLBT Americans.

His point would have been far more powerful and less offensive if he had said "Our gay brothers and sisters are not sinners any more than you or I are." Words have meaning. I'm not a sinner, I don't believe in that nonsense, and I will not support anyone who calls me a sinner, even as part of a fantasy universe of sin.

[IndieLeft]

143. Please... you are reaching now.

You are just parsing words.

[hulklogan]

146. You're right. The straight people have spoken and now I know what to believe

Could you please point me towards the line for the kool-aid?

[IndieLeft]

152. Amazing... truly amazing.

Sorry, I guess I'm just a horrible homophobe making shit up.

Yeah, it couldn't be that Obama's words have been taken out of context. No, I'm just a homophobe who is lieing. Thanks.

[TankLV]

188. "I guess I'm just a horrible homophobe making shit up."

Well - you said it...

THAT's the WHOLE point...!

[IndieLeft]

202. You are a piece of work. Really.

[avrdream]

150. Read the quote:

"it has too often been easy for some to point to the unfaithful husband or the promiscuous youth or the gay man and say ‘This is your fault. You have sinned.’ I don't think that's a satisfactory response. My faith reminds me that we all are sinners.”"

Obama lumps us in with the unfaithful husband and the promiscuous youth......we are all sinners, huh? The gays are sinners for our "choice" of who we have sexual attractions to. We are sinning for that choice in an equal way to the man who is committing adultery. Thanks a fucking lot, Barrack!

[IndieLeft]

153. There is a choice here...

There are many.

Is there a choice to who you feel attracted to? NO. You love who you love. There is a choice to act on it. The bible sees it as a sin. The bible sees adultary as a sin, as you are acting on your feeling. Shit, the bible sees eating shellfish as an abomination.

That is his point. That you should not point a finger in judgement at people because of what the bible calls a sin. Because according to the bible, we are ALL sinners.

[hulklogan]

156. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're

only interpreting the brainwashing of Obama's faith when you say that acting on your sexual orientation is a choice.

GLBT Americans should not have to be celibate just because some fairytale book says we should.

[IndieLeft]

162. I didn't say sexual orientation is a choice.

This is how I see it.

You cannot control how you feel. If you are attracted to someone, you are just attracted to them.

There is a choice. There is a choice on whether you act on your feelings. The choice is whether you are going to be happy or not.

I think it is foolish to ignore that choice. You should be happy.

As I said, I have family members and friends who are gay. I love them all, and I am happy that they are happy. They should be.

[hulklogan]

165. Love the sinner but not the sin, right?

I understand where you're coming from now and I never want to go there.

[IndieLeft]

167. I never said that. And obviously, you don't.

[hulklogan]

171. I heard people explain Bill Richardson's "being gay is a choice" statement

the same way after the LOGO forum, and it didn't wash with me then, either.

I wish you all the best. :thumbsup:

[IndieLeft]

179. I didn't say being gay is a choice.

You are who you are. You are attracted to whomever you are attracted to. That is not the choice.

The only choice I see, is whether or not you choose to be happy. I applaud anyone with the courage to do that. It is not always easy... especially when it comes to this.

Do NOT misunderstand what I am saying.

[TankLV]

187. HIS words - HIS context.

I can't believe you idiots are still spewing this shit...

[IndieLeft]

217. I can't believe you are so closed minded that you can only

fathom that is was an insult.

Go ahead... see it how you want. When he is president, I'm sure he won't hold it against you. And you won't have any problem with the civil liberties he makes sure you get.

[mondo joe]

220. When you are justified as a "sinner" rather than as a person entitled to equal rights, it's an

insult.

[IndieLeft]

225. That's not what he did.

That's not what he meant. You know that's not what he meant. Look at his record. Look at what he has done.

Do you really think that after all the years he has spent fighting for equal rights, and the fact that wants to get rid of don't ask don't tell, the fact that he supports civil unions with ALL of the benefits of marriage...

Do you really think that is what he meant? COME ON!

You know better than that. You do.

[mondo joe]

228. It certainly is. We are justified based on everyone sinning. That's not what justifies

my rights, or the way I should be treated.

That's fucked up.

Incidentally, opposing same sex marriage is fucked up too, even if you are okay with civil unions.

[IndieLeft]

232. You got a candidate running that is for same sex marriage?

NO, I didn't think so. And chances are that it isn't going to happen. Obama offers the closest thing to is.

Quite honestly, I don't care. Call it what you want. You should have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of the country.

:evilgrin:

Incidently.. I did have a point then... it is about the word, isn't it... Marriage.

~~at least partly.

[mondo joe]

234. Actually, Clinton is not opposed to same sex marriage though she feels civil unions

are more expedient.

Obama feels I should have separate-but-equal rights. So fuck him.

[IndieLeft]

242. Wow... amazing. Truly amazing.

So, you got this video of Clinton saying that she is for marriage. I would love to see it. I have watched just about every debate and I haven't seen that one.

[mondo joe]

Go look it up. Her position is that marriage is a state issue, and that civil unions are

more expedient.

See? You keep proving that you have no real interest in GLBT issues.

[IndieLeft]

258. I know more than you think.

And you have no idea what my interest in GLBT issues are.

[mondo joe]

259. You've proven yourself ignorant of GLBT issues, uncaring, and given to use of RW homohobic

words.

Your doing, not mine.

[IndieLeft]

276. I just sent you a PM.... I suggest you read it before you make

one more comment about me.

[mondo joe]

281. I read it. It changes nothing. Thanks.

[IndieLeft]

285. Then I have nothing more to say to you.

You want make false accusations about me... go ahead. At least I know the type of person I am dealing with then.

[IndieLeft]

236. And so everything he has ever dont for LGBT... None of it matters

None of it. Screw it all. He did one thing that pissed you off, and so nothing else matters. Wow.

[mondo joe]

239. What he has done matters, in the whole. The good and the bad. And on the whole,

he is the lesser candidate for me and my family.

[IndieLeft]

241. And so one incident, one thing completely erases years and year and years

of hard work. None of that matters.

Tell me, please, when he becomes president, and civil unions are made law, and you are able to get all the rights that a "married" couple receive, will you make use of them? Will you?

Because if you are so against him, and nothing he has done matters now that he made one error in judgement, then you have no right to those liberties.

It's like someone voting for Bush and then bitching about it. It would make you a complete hypocrite.

I am just curious here. You rail against him, despite the fact that he wants to give you more than any other candidate. He wants to give you what you deserve, as a human being.

How does all of this serve your interest?

He wants to give you what should already be yours. And you don't care. You are going to let ONE incident, which he has already said he does NOT agree with, take that away from you.

[mondo joe]

245. Not one incident, but a mindset, which I've addressed earlier, is enough to cost

my vote.

He doesn't want to give me "more than any other candidate" either.

When you learn to listen to GLBT concerns, you'll understand them.

But you're not there.

[IndieLeft]

247. You have no idea how "there" I am.

so don't pretend. For all you know... I'm just a chubby little gay guy with a dissenting opinion.

Don't pretend to know any more about me than I do you.

And as I said, if you have such a problem with him, then it's simple. After he's the president, and civil unions are a done deal, don't get one. Wait for the next president.

I mean, if he's that bad, and he's done that many horrible things... Don't make use of the liberties that this horrible man is offering.

[mondo joe]

250. Sur I do - you've proven it, by diminishing and ignoring the response of the majority of GLBT dems.

You've proven who you are.

And you won't get any more votes by parading your disrespect.

[IndieLeft]

252. I haven't disrespected anyone on here.

And I am not looking for votes. I would be willing to bet the vast majority on here have already made up their minds.

And no, you don't know who I am... so don't pretend.

[mondo joe]

255. Keep telling yourself that. No wonder you don't get it. NT

[IndieLeft]

260. I can't help it if the turth hurts.

You keep saying the same stuff over and over... You concede nothing, and address none of my points. Tells me all I need to know. I have responded to everything you have thrown back at me. You... you just keep saying the same thing.

Fine, don't admit it. I guess I was foolish to think you could have an open mind and even consider the possibility that you could be mistaken. Silly me.

Enjoy your self indulgent shallow views. See where they take you.

[mondo joe]

261. Yeah, it's all part of the "glbt lifestyle".

[IndieLeft]

263. Don't go there.

I haven't said anything on here tonight that would lend to me being anything but sympathetic on this.

It is impossible to have a discussion go on this long without one word that could be constued as unsympathetic... Especially when everyone is looking for you to make one slip up.

You know better than that. If I was some homophobic asshole I would have said much worse by now.

[mondo joe]

264. Tell me more about my "GLBT lifestyle" please. I can't wait.

[IndieLeft]

266. Thanks. It's been real Mondo... It's been a real experience.

[TankLV]

185. look it up yourself - we're tired of doing YOUR work for you...

it's in the RECORDS - look it up...

[IndieLeft]

226. I provided links. It is the least you could do.

[TankLV]

184. Ummm - NO - it's NOT a "fact" - and his record is quite the CONTARY...

[IndieLeft]

227. Going to contradict me? Show me some proof.

Everything I have seen says I am right.

[LittleClarkie]

196. Question: Is Hillary much better?

I keep getting hung up on Bill telling Kerry to support DOMA to get elected in 2004, something Kerry said he could never do. I would think that Hillary would have no problem throwing that constituency under the bus if it meant getting elected.

For the record, I'm not telling you what to do or who to vote for. Personally, I'm supporting Obama DESPITE this issue. I'm not terribly pleased with him about the McClurkin issue, and I think it showed a certain level of pandering.

I see the Clinton's as being champs in that regard though. So I made my choice. I leave others to do the same. But we can discuss, eh?

[IndieLeft]

200. You are absolutely right... but those are facts...

They have a liberal bias... just like reality

[Sapphocrat]

277. Busted!

"They have a liberal bias."

"They" ... "liberal bias" ... ?

Your slip is showing.

[IndieLeft]

282. Facts have a liberal bias

don't even try it. It was a joke... stephen colbert... remember... at the press dinner i think it was... "reality has a liberal bias"

futile effort, really. I am disappointed.

[Sapphocrat]

290. Yeah, OK, whatever you say.

Not buying it for a second.

[IndieLeft]

293. Don't really care if you do.

you should get something for that closed mind of yours though.

[Sapphocrat]

298. Obviously you don't care.

Or you would have been listening from the start. That is what's called having an open mind.

[IndieLeft]

301. Have a nice night.

I wish you sweet dreams and nothing but the best.

We disgree on this topic, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am sure whoever the president is (as long as it's a dem) will do right by all of us.

[Umbram]

25. Doh!

You shouldn't have even answered the question. Unless the answer is yes - you'll be attacked.

[IndieLeft]

31. They can attack all they want. I am still right.

Obama hasn't done anything wrong.

[Zenlitened]

95. Putting McClurkin on stage was wrong. It's as simple as that. - n/t

[IndieLeft]

And? So you ignore all the good Obama has done for the LGBT community?

Over one incident, which he denounced. Nice.

[mondo joe]

105. All the good? What "all the good" is that? Perpetuating lies that hurt gay kids?

Sorry.

[IndieLeft]

107. Obama has been fighting for LGBT rights his whole career.

Just because you are too lazy to look it up, doesn't excuse you for being underinformed.

[mondo joe]

111. He's sure been TALKING about it. But he's glad to pander to anti gay bigots.

Not getting my vote.

[IndieLeft]

117. Probably never was.

[mondo joe]

181. You keep repeating that crap. But you ignore some facts: a number of GLBT DUers

have stated that we were not fixed on one candidate until AFTER the McClurkin event.

But even if you want to insist that we're all lying and really just don't like Obama, what's your theory about why so many LGBT feel that way?

[IndieLeft]

206. People believe what they want to believe...

And hear what they want to hear.

They pretend to know the context of something, so that it fits what they want to believe.

[mondo joe]

207. You're still making shit up. You can review my thousands of pre-McClurkin posts

and see I never came down for one candidate. It was 0bama's actions that decided my support of Clinton, not the reverse.

[IndieLeft]

209. I haven't made anything up.

[mondo joe]

216. You certainly are, with your accusations of false outrage, and "probably never was" in reference

to Obama not getting my vote.

Made. Up. Shit.

[IndieLeft]

229. I didn't make up a darned thing.

[mondo joe]

231. Now that's just false. You made up how I and others feel. That's your own made up trash.

Get a boundary.

[IndieLeft]

246. Made up? NO.

An educated guess... I'll admit that.

[Reterr]

154. I highly , highly doubt it

The Obama campaign's strategy appears to be to use "the google" every time someone asks them about actual issues. They specialize in dewey-eyed rhetoric centering on "hope" and "change".

[Bucky]

2. Facts---pffff. You can prove ANYTHING with facts.

the ever quoteable Homer Simpson

[CTLawGuy]

3. It will fall on deaf ears

just sayin'.

[NMMatt]

8. Its simple really...

It's not a LGBT issue with the majority of the posters from what I can tell. It's really a femanist thing.

[theHandpuppet]

33. Nope, I listened

And someone needs to explain to Mr. Obama that "reaching out" to homophobes is not the same thing as giving them a platform.

[NMMNG]

Read this

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/exnegro/ex-NegroAdFINAL.pdf

Then get back to me.

[IndieLeft]

168. You couldn't be more right

[mondo joe]

186. Not deaf ears, but thinking brains. If the OP is so at odds with actual GLBT people,

maybe there's a good reason for it.

[IndieLeft]

211. You have to be kidding me right? Thanks... I needed someone to

put words in my mouth for me. I wasn't capable of doing that anymore.

[mondo joe]

219. Fact is, you are at odds with the opinion of most GLBT people about GLBT issues.

That's fact.

[IndieLeft]

251. No, I don't' think I am.

I disagree with this one thing. just this one. I don't think Obama is the bad guy. I think the majority are wrong on this one. It's not like it hasn't happened before. I mean, the majority thought slavery was okay at one point. The majority thought it was okay to steal the land from the native Americans at one point too.

The majority can be wrong. And in this incidence, I think it is. He is a good man, with good intentions. Yeah, he made a mistake, but I don't think it is to the extent that people on here believe it to be.

[mondo joe]

253. But I know you are at odds with the majority of GLBT people. You are free to disagree.

But you're not winning any more votes.

[IndieLeft]

267. Not looking to

I would just like someone on her to admit that it is possible that he didn't mean it in the way you think.

I mean... you don't even think it is possible?

[mondo joe]

269. It's possible that invisible pink unicorns are in my back yard.

But I'm not counting on it.

[IndieLeft]

278. Well, at least you admit it's possible... I sent you a PM... please read it.

[UALRBSofL]

4. Had this been a race issue it would be all over MSM

Wait, that already happened in South Carolina.

[BuyingThyme]

5. Having beliefs based on faith is reason enough to be passed on as president.

But we all have to make choices.

[LostinVA]

6. I see so many posts on here saying how HRC never apologized for her IWR vote

And, posters say that;s THE main reason they can't/won't vote for her. How the hell is THIS any different? The latter is a human rights issue, whether or not you want to admit it.

[IndieLeft]

11. What more do you want Obama to do?

He has stated that he disagrees with him. He has denounced his statements, is for civil unions with ALL the legal rights as marriage. What more do you want? Is it the word? Marriage.

I'm seriously asking. It that it? the word...

[mondo joe]

61. He could apologize. He could stop describing us as "sinners" as the

basis for pseudo-equality.

[IndieLeft]

74. You are just trying to find something to pin on him.

Where is the link to the video of him calling LGBT "sinners"

[mondo joe]

87. To the contrary. I had no affiliation prior to McClurkin.

[IndieLeft]

91. Obama....

[dbackjon]

128. Support Equal Rights for All Americans

Don't just give BS statements, do something concrete.

Tell the Donnie McClurkins of the world their views are despicable, and that all Americans are equal.

[IndieLeft]

164. He does support equal rights for ALL AMERICANS

Do you listen to his speeches? Did you bother to watch the THREE videos I linked?

[dbackjon]

318. No - HE DOESN'T

He doesn't support Gay Marriage.

He hasn't introduced one piece of legislation in the Senate to further equality.

He spends more time with Bigots than with GLBTers.

[Neecy]

24. how is it different?

You're kidding, right? Millions of refugees, tens of thousands dead, 4000 of our servicemen dead and a bankrupt nation vs one dumbass homophobe.

Riiiiight.

[IndieLeft]

36. How is what different?

[Neecy]

41. See #6

The poster asked how McClurkin was different from the IWR vote - quite a reach, really.

[LostinVA]

321. I mentioned human rights -- all human rights are equal

Untold people killed, fired, beat up, harassed for being gay. The majority of teenage runways and suicides are gay. Children put into "brainwash" camps to make them "change," gays imprisoned and murdered by state governments (including ours in recent times), not being able to marry the person you love, etc. It's an institutionalized hate and bigotry which is scary, and the "Ex Gay" movement is even more insidious. Giving a stage and tacit approval to such ideas is, indeed, a sin.

Untold millions affected by this.

Comparing it to the devastation in Iraq is a strawman. One person's misery and death is not more important than another's. I've never excused the invasion of Iraq. I marched against it. I've never excised HRC's, Kerry's, Edward's, et al votes against it. Nor any of their -- or Obama's votes for funding it.

Human rights are human rights.

[mtnsnake]

62. K&R

Great point!

[Zenlitened]

7. "God delivered me from homosexuality" = horrible thing to say.

[QC]

9. That's one of his kinder remarks.

I was more offended by the one about how we are destroying the children.

But if you object to this you are a hysterical, ungrateful nellie.

[IndieLeft]

17. But that isn't what he said at the concert... which is why

the LGBT community has been up in arms... at least on here.

[mondo joe]

Also, the Kirbyjon endorsement, the Newsom snub, the "sinners" comment.

[IndieLeft]

26. Got links? I gave links. You got any?

[mondo joe]

30. If you actually paid any attention to LGBT issuesyou'd know about these already.

Thanks for proving my point.

[IndieLeft]

78. What point... You are making up stuff to slam Obama?

I proved that point.

[mondo joe]

102. Made up? People who care about LGBT issues know about the Newsom snub, abbout the "sinners"

line, about Kirbyjon... but you don't.

[IndieLeft]

112. Got a Link? a video? show me... Still waiting.

Otherwise I have to take it as a lie.

Even Rachel Maddow has said Obama has a very clear picture of the issues, and concurs with what Obama has said about gay issues.

You are just stirring up false outrage.

[TankLV]

189. Almost 800 posts on LIES since the Jan 30 - nice...

that's all you do...

Nothing is "made up" - the only one making things up is YOU.

WE have PROVED our point to the point of nauseum - look it up, you lazy ass...

[IndieLeft]

215. I haven't posted a single lie on here.

How dare you say that. Who do you think you are? Just because I have a difference of opinion, does not make me a liar.

I post links with just about thread I post.

[Zenlitened]

60. Marginalizing the GLBT community and its supporters...

... is nothing new for a segment of DU, unfortunately. :(

McClurkin's toxic spewage absolutely makes my stomach turn. This notion that being gay is a "sin"... it's just utterly poisonous, right from the outset. And anything that follows from that point is bound to stink.

But yeah, if only those "uppity" gays would shut up, everything would be fine. Sure GLBT lives are being destroyed every minute of every day, but do ya have to be so noisy about it? :crazy: :grr:

[IndieLeft]

79. My OP didn't marginalize anything.

Obama is not McClurkin. He doesn't share the same views. I have yet to see anyone here post a link to a video that proves that different.

[Zenlitened]

131. I disagree. You did indeed marginalze the GLBT community and its supporters.

You've portrayed McClurkin's statements as nothing more than a difference in points-of-view:

"... the way it has come across on here is that he (McClurkin) went on and said deplorable things attacking members of the LGBT community... What I heard him say was his beliefs, based on his faith. I didn't hear him say horrible things...."

Do you really thinks that spouting "It's my faith" makes McClurkin's point-of-view any less deplorable? He is simply wrong, no matter what book he cites.

This is a fact: Declaring gay or lesbian orientation to be a "sin" is harmful. Declaring that a person might need to be "delivered" from being gay or lesbian is harmful.

McClurkin said these things. That he delivered his repulsive message on stage at an event meant to rally support for a Democratic candidate is shocking.

Sen. Obama does need to address this matter at some point, IMO. His supporters, in their effort to dismiss it all as unimportant -- or as something that couldn't even be regarded as objectionable, as you've done in your OP -- are doing the candidate no favor.

[IndieLeft]

201. Obama did address these things.

You just choose to ignore it.

You cannot blame Obama for what one ignorant man said. Plain and simple.

I dind't marginalize anything. Excuse me for having an open mind and respecting EVERYONE'S right to express their thoughts... whether I agree with them or not.

[Zenlitened]

313. Movin' movin' movin', keep those goal-posts movin'....

(Sung to the tune of "Rawhide.') :eyes:

[IndieLeft]

294. Well, if that is what he believes

and that is what his religion says... it is his right to see it that way.

As I have repeatedly said, I don't buy into all that, and I don't agree with it... but it is still his right.

[terrya]

10. Why do you not understand how offensive it is to be told that you're "sick"?

And who you are, and who you love, is some kind of "curse".

How do you not understand how offensive that is?

[HeraldSquare212]

13. But why is it only offensive when Obama appears with such a person?

[Chovexani]

55. It is not only offensive when Obama appears with such a person

What is particularly egregious about what Obama did is that not only did he completely ignored the entreaties of people who said HEY WHUT THIS GUY IS KINDA NUTS PLZ DON'T LET HIM TALK FOR YOU, he then played up the false black/GLBT dichotomy by inviting a white gay preacher to come talk for like 2 minutes before the show started, and on top of it his campaign was quoted as saying "we got what we needed out of it". To smear the sparkly Lose icing on this Strawberry Failcake, ever since then the Obamateers have been shouting down any attempt to point out how fucked up this all was by alternately repeating the same talking bullshit talking points and saying that no one cares except Hillbots and uppity queers.

It's like he went down the list of How Not to Handle a Campaign Fuckup and checked, checked, checked his way to the OMGWTF Hall of Fame. It was Epic Fail on so many levels that it's hard to describe.

Jesus Christ I think we need to write Basic Human Decency for Dummies or something.

[HeraldSquare212]

75. But then Clinton gets a pass for doing it in other than an election year?

[Chovexani]

148. This. Is. Not. About. Clinton.

Please, please stop trying to make this about Clinton. WE KNOW SHE SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE. NO ONE IS SAYING OTHERWISE.

How about actually trying to address your candidate's fuckup instead of this 12 year old "but but HILLARY did it too!" because it's really fucking pathetic. Actually it's sailed past pathetic and has gone head first into "Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?!"

Y'all are seriously acting like Republicans. You don't have a leg to stand on with the actual issue (your dude fucked up royally, okay? even those of you who are screaming "so what?" about it can admit that, uh, maybe he might have handled it poorly) so you deflect and try to change the subject to your opponent. It's lame ass pathetic FAIL when they do it, and even worse when you do, because you're ostensibly Democrats and therefore smart and should be able to discuss issues. I have yet to see an Obama supporter on one of these threads say "wow, okay, my bad, how can we do better by you guys?". It's always HILLARY HILLARY HILLARY like you're some kind of bootleg Jan Brady.

You're falling into the trap of thinking this is just a campaign issue like Edwards haircuts or something. It's not, dude.

[Umbram]

15. Is it fair to attribute to the OP those sentiments? nt.

[terrya]

21. I'm just trying to get people to understand this.

Quite honestly, there are people here at Democratic Underground who don't seem to grasp this.

[Umbram]

54. Well, that's an understandable and productive goal.

I'd like to think I understand. I have dated people of both sexes (and seen the discrimination that ensues first hand), been a member of GLBT/non-GLBT alliance groups, etc. No, this absolutely doesn't entitle me to an opinion in the eyes of some members of this board, but, oh well.

Do I have to support any particular candidate in order to 'understand' and support the GLBT community?

I don't see anything in the original post that would lead me to believe that the OP doesn't understand.

I'm waiting to throw my support behind whomever wins the nomination, but am getting tired of all of the accusations of racism, sexism, and homophobia that are rampant right now. If we believed the DU boards, you'd think we were ALL Freepers.

[Zenlitened]

85. The OP's statement "I didn't hear him (McClurkin) say horrible things"...

... makes it pretty clear, to me at least, that the OP truly does not understand the problem.

[Umbram]

96. Thanks.

I think I plugged in the wrong person mentally when I read the pronoun 'him' in that sentence.

After reading that paragraph a second time - your interpretation does make more sense.

[NMMNG]

104. Yes

Anybody who can still excuse homophobia as someone's "religious beliefs" is beyond reproach. Bigotry is bigotry plain and simple. It doesn't matter how you try to justify or excuse it.

[IndieLeft]

121. The problem? I heard what he said.

Did he say gays are going to hell? No. Did he say gays should rot? No. He said he loves all people, actually, but he doesn't espous to a LGBT lifestyle... one he has already lived

That is what he said.

[Zenlitened]

155. With friends like you, Sen. Obama doesn't need enemies. - n/t

[Maven]

174. The "LGBT lifestyle...one he has already lived?"

And you think you're not a homophobe?

[QC]

194. At first I thought she was just clueless,

but that bit tipped me off that something very different was going on here.

[IndieLeft]

303. You are reading too much into.

You really are.

[hiaasenrocks]

213. The OP has a phobia about something that is the same as themselves?

:shrug:

[IndieLeft]

291. the OP does not have ANY homophobia

I have repeatedly said I do not agree, in any sense with what McClurkin said.

[mondo joe]

182. "lgbt lifestyle"? What do you mean by that?

[IndieLeft]

279. I don't mean anything by that.

[LostinVA]

315. "Lifestyle" is such a RW term

Progressives should know better.

[dbackjon]

138. DU is fulling raging homophobes

People that don't understand true equality, or their choice of superstitions prevents them from opening their mind.

[IndieLeft]

144. I'm not a homophobe, and I haven't seen any comments from anyone

in this thread that would lead you to say that.

[dbackjon]

160. Actually, comments from you lead me to believe that

Since you are excusing Obama, and belittling those who object to Obama's embrace of bigotry.

[Maven]

172. Yes, you are

If you can say this and think it's anything but disgusting:

"What I heard {McClurkin} say was his beliefs, based on his faith. I didn't hear him say horrible things. Now, depending on your religious affiliation, you may decide to agree or disagree with what he is saying."

:puke:

[TankLV]

190. yes - you are - no matter how much you insist you're not...YOU ARE A HOMOPHOBE...

[IndieLeft]

205. You don't know the first thing about me.

For all you know, I'm really a chubby gay guy who just disagrees.

[mondo joe]

214. We know you use homophobic terms, like "lifestyle".

We know you don't seem to understand GLBT people.

[hiaasenrocks]

221. "Lifestyle" is "homophobic"?

How so?

I think the word "lifestyle" is pretty self-explanatory.

lifestyle<1,noun>

Main Entry:
Function:noun
Date:1939
: the typical way of life of an individual, group, or culture

While we're on definitions (because, yes, they do matter) why would anyone have a phobia about something that is the same as themselves?

[mondo joe]

223. If you want to play dictionary games, go ahead. But to pretend you don't know what homophobia means

is just sad.

[hiaasenrocks]

233. Words have meaning for a reason...

despite what some in the PC speech police brigade will tell us.

But I guess the real answer to all this is, as you say, I'm sad. :(

Thank you for proving a point.

[mondo joe]

237. And "homophobia" has meaning. Look it up.

And then let me know what the "GLBT lifestyle" is.

[hiaasenrocks]

244. The actual, logical meaning of the word "homophobia"

would be an irrational fear of sameness. As it is used in debates such at this, it is nothing more than slang, and is really a misuse of the term.

As for "lifestyle," I'm not sure I really need to explain that. Is there only one "lifestyle"? Would you agree that a gay couple (or single, for that matter) lives differently -- in several, but not all aspects -- than a straight couple? If not, then we'll have to go back and examine the original claims of discrimination. If so, then we can agree that there are different lifestyles.

You can call my posts "dictionary games" if you wish, but words matter...so much so that you objected to a few words, which sparked this discussion in the first place.

[mondo joe]

248. No, that's not the ACTUAL definition. Funny how you like the dictionary when it suits you,

but not when it runs afoul of your position.

[hiaasenrocks]

256. Really?

Well, I guess if you read my post below and want to discuss this further, we'll have to go back and give you a refresher course on the meaning of the words "homo" and "phobia" and "sexual."

I'm sure you are familiar with the individual meaning of each and I'm sure we can agree on the meaning of the word that is formed by at least two of those ("homo" and "sexual"), and that word makes sense for a reason.

So, we can take this up another time if you're interested in getting the language right.

[mondo joe]

257. You're confused. Regardless of what you think homophobia SHOULD mean, it has an actual

meaning you prefer not to recognize.

Sorry about that odd limitation.

[hiaasenrocks]

249. P.S. If you'd like to continue this alleged discussion

feel free to PM me. I'm going to bed and won't be checking this thread again.

Have a great night! :hi:

[Sapphocrat]

284. Terms like "PC speech police brigade"...

...and words like "lifestyle"...

Christ, man, if you don't see how homophobic that shit sounds, why don't you fucking ASK, and LISTEN, instead of getting all defensive in our faces and trying to convince us YOU know what's homophobic or not?

Is it bullish pride standing in your way of learning something? I'd really like an answer.

[hiaasenrocks]

238. It doesn't matter. Just look around.

If you don't agree, you're a "bigot" or a "homophobe" or some other name that is designed to shut down speech and/or thought that varies from the desired opinion.

It really isn't worth it, as evidenced in this subthread.

[LostinVA]

316. Actually, you are

[IndieLeft]

27. But Obama NEVER said any of that.

AND he has said, as shown in the video I provided, that he doesn't agree with that stance.

[mondo joe]

43. But he gave a bigot a platform to say it. If Clinton gave a KKK member a platform

to reach out to white bigots and then said "But I don't agree with him" would you defend it?

[IndieLeft]

89. So, where is your proof that he knew what he was going to say.

Not to mention, if all he said was "god delivered me" then, that is what he believes. Who are you to challenge his religious beliefs.

There are some people who just believe that it is a sin. It is part of their religion.

Does that mean that everyone they know believes the same thing? NO.

...If your friend jumped off a bridge would you?

[mondo joe]

98. He was warned by the HRC. And if he didn't know, he had no business giving

him a platform.

He was warned, he disregarded it, he has NEVER apologized.

[goodgd_yall]

50. He allowed someone who believes that to MC his concert

He MAY not have known McClurkin was going to preach against homosexuality, but he failed to show LEADERSHIP by not immediately and without prompting addressing what McClurkin said at the concert.

[IndieLeft]

124. I didn't hear him say that at the concert.

You all say that he gave him a platform, well you can't blame Obama for things McClurkin said at a different platform.

[maddiejoan]

12. Here's the problem short and sweet

Obama is treating all this as if they are "policy differences" each with a legitimiate point of view.

He has aided in framing LGBT rights into a false (and very dangerous paradigm)

"Homosexuality is a sin" versus "Homosexuality is not a sin"

AND he has brought this horror into a secular political arena in an effort to pander to the "Homosexuality is a sin" crowd.

He can shout all he likes that he doesn't agree with McClurkin --that's NOT the problem.

The problem is that Obama has turned the dial of the debate back to pre 1969.

[HeraldSquare212]

14. But you don't attack Clinton for appearing with an anti-gay minister, why just Obama?

[maddiejoan]

22. Because Clinton

hasn't given over her microphone to one nor has she used it in an effort to pander to the "Homosexuality is a sin" crowd.

There's no shortage of anti-gay ministers --or Democrats who have support from them.

There is only one I know of that put one on stage to voice his hate filled agenda in a clear attempt at garnering their vote.

[HeraldSquare212]

29. She attended a fundraiser for him. That's not supporting a hate-filled agenda?

[maddiejoan]

39. Wasn't her fundraiser

Did she even know he would be there?

Obama was asked to take McClurkin off the tour by LGBT groups.
He KNEW what was at stake. He didn't particularly care --probably because he assumes we would vote for him anyway.

[IndieLeft]

42. I get it now... You aren't upset with Obama over this...

You are all just Hillary supporters looking for a reason to bash Obama. Wow, I was correct all along.

[mondo joe]

49. Incorrect. You're pretending two different things are the same.

Clinton didn't give the bigot a platform.

If she had she'd be as despicable.

[rinsd]

70. And that is Obama supporters problem with this issue and how they have handled it.

You guys keep treating the concerns of LGBT DUers as partisan politics and accused them of fake outrage.

There's a difference between a small fundraiser that got a blip in a CA paper vs a major fundraising event during a Presidential campaign that LGBT actvists pleaded with Obama to remove McClurkin from.

[IndieLeft]

127. It is fake outrage.

Clinton is okay with you, despite acting in the same manner.
Edwards is okay, despite saying he wouldn't even support civil unions.

But Obama is not, despite the years and years of work he has done on the behalf of the LGBT community.

Way to stab someone in the back. But don't worry, when he's president he won't hold it against you. You will get all the rights you should get, despite your blatant ignorance.

[rinsd]

320. He gavce the stage to anti gay bigot to raise money for his campaign.

That you need to call it the same thing & fake outrage shows that deep down you know it was wrong.

[maddiejoan]

140. Did it occur to you

that there's a reason I support Hillary?

[maddiejoan]

142. Did it occur to you

that there is a reason I support Hillary over Obama?

[LostinVA]

323. Many people disagreeing with you aren't Clinton supporters

[HeraldSquare212]

44. But it raised money for the minister.

I guess we disagree. I just don't see the difference. I thought HRC was pandering when she went to that fundraiser, and it's just the type of sort-of under-the-radar CYA move that Clinton constantly does, in my opinion, the same way Bill signed DOMA allegedly under protest and in the dark of the night, and then took out radio ads on Christian radio stations in small markets boasting that he had signed it. They always want it both ways.

[maddiejoan]

56. Raise money for who?

It was a birthday celebration for Andrew Young.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4135451&mesg_id=4135451

As far as DOMA goes --I suggest you read more of it's history and why Bill Clinton signed it. It was to prevent a Constitutional ban, which BTW is also why Obama's 'promise' to repeal all of DOMA is a load of crap -- he'll wind up having to do exactly what Hillary says she WILL do, anything more at this stage opens up the probability of Constitutional Bans on same-sex marriage to be brought back as a major wedge issue. Hillary will get us there, because she knows how to get us there. Obama has no depth of knowledge about the issues.

[HeraldSquare212]

63. Nope - I'm not referring to that event.

But what about the fact that Bill took out ads boasting of signing it?

[mondo joe]

67. Which minister are you saying Clinton raised money for?

[maddiejoan]

69. I guess you'll have to show me what you are talking about.

and what event are YOU talking about?

[HeraldSquare212]

86. I thought this was pretty well known.

I've posted it before in the same context.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0509,lombardi1,61604,6.html/full

-snip-

It would appear Senator Clinton had picked the perfect venue to start getting religious on the public stage. The January 19 fundraiser for the Boston-based National Ten Point Leadership Foundation had the nominal backing of such leading Massachusetts Democrats as Boston mayor Tom Menino, as well as U.S. senators Ted Kennedy and John Kerry. More importantly, the 500-strong crowd included many of the city's leading black ministers, who'd likely welcome the sight of the preeminent Democrat dishing out the language of God.

But if you think this mixing of politics and religiosity comes free of charge, think again. The affair's host was Reverend Eugene Rivers III, the spiritual leader of the Pentecostal Azusa Christian Community and a prominent black minister willing to do business with the Bush White House. On January 25, he was among a coterie of clergy who met with President Bush in Washington. His Ten Point foundation has benefited from federal funding thanks to the administration's faith-based program. And Rivers has appeared in documents issued by the White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives pushing one of its most controversial elements—that faith-based agencies be allowed to ignore state and local anti-discrimination laws but still receive federal money.

And then there's his outspoken stance against same-sex marriage. Last year, in the battle for civil-marriage rights for gay couples in Massachusetts, Rivers aligned himself with the most extreme opponents. He showed up at forums hosted by the anti-gay Family Research Council. He lent his celebrity to a radio ad paid for by Your Catholic Voice that declared: "Same-sex unions are really about 'special rights' for a special interest group."

Just a week before he shared the spotlight with Senator Clinton in Boston, he sounded a similar theme at Calvin College, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, arguing in a January 11 address that the words "civil rights" have been co-opted by those who support full equality for gay couples. Then Rivers revealed his true conservative colors:

"Frequently, same-sex couples wanting to marry are white lesbians who seek the accoutrements of family life and the proverbial white picket fence," he told the crowd. "From their positions of socioeconomic privilege, they insist that their desires must be viewed as rights instead of preferences."

-snip-

[maddiejoan]

114. Okay

Not very good. Pretty damned bad even

But not as bad as Obama either.

1) Don't see where there is anything about Bill buying ads.

2) Wasn't Clinton's event in the same manner that it was Obama.

3) Not supporting same-sex marriage, while bad, is not even in the same league as denouncing homosexuality as a sin.

This is what many are NOT getting.

"same-sex marriage" is a debate for 2008

"Homosexuality is a sin" is a debate for 1968

[HeraldSquare212]

118. Actually, that is a good point on '68 vs. '08

To me the fact that it's just another issue where the Clintons try to appeal to all sides in a very sneaky matter just makes me nuts.


from the link below(which is actaully an endoresement of HRC):

Bill’s transgressions didn’t end there. He signed DOMA and cynically bragged about it in ads that aired on Christian radio stations during his 1996 re-election campaign. More recently, he reportedly urged Sen. John Kerry to support state constitutional amendments banning same-sex marriage during the 2004 race.


http://www.washblade.com/2007/12-21/view/editorial/11773.cfm

[maddiejoan]

123. hint

I'm voting for HILLARY Clinton.

[rinsd]

64. Hillary appeared with an anti-gay minister during this campaign to shore up her religious voter sup?

[IndieLeft]

129. It's okay, that was Hillary... she's cool

[NMMNG]

84. Clinton didn't give an anti-gay minister a stage and a microphone

to spew homophobic bullshit to the cheers of thousands. Obama did so after the protests of LGBTs who told him that was exactly what would happen. Obama assured LGBTs that the asshat would "only sing a few songs". The bigot emceed the event, sang his songs and did a 30 minute sermon against LGBTs which was an advertisement for the "Ex-Gay" psycho-spiritual terrorist movement.

Maybe that's why?

[terrya]

18. When I hear him say that he "profoundly disagrees" with this...

it makes him sound like he's talking about a bill that would eliminate farm subsidies or something. Some dry, legislativespeak.

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. Good post.

[NMMNG]

19. Question. Are you black? n/t

[IndieLeft]

94. Um.... No.

[NMMNG]

100. No matter.

Read this and get back to me. It's extraordinarily offensive, and it's meant to be. But it's designed to give some perspective on certain matters.

[IndieLeft]

130. I think I might have been in a past life. That count?

[IndieLeft]

137. It is very offensive... but I guess I don't see how you are relating the two.

Aside from them being civil liberty issues.

[NMMNG]

147. I'm relating the two

Because I want people to see how hideously harmful and offensive the "Ex-Gay" movement is, and how wrong it is for anybody to support it or try to justify it in any way.


The "Ex-Gay" movement is a psycho-spiritual terrorist industry that results in significant harm and even death to LGBT people . It should be denounced in every way possible, not supported, excused or passed off as "just another opinion".

[IndieLeft]

149. I agree with you... but

What I have seen from Obama, it is no worse than any othe candidate.

He came out and said he did not agree with what McClurkin said. He has done tons of work on behalf of the GLBT community.

Actions speak louder than words.

[NMMNG]

158. "Actions speak louder than words"

Actions like putting a rabid anti-gay bigot on stage (after protests from LGBT advocates) to spew homophobic filth to the cheers of other homophobic bigots?

Actions like working with another "Ex-Gay" minister during and after the McClurkin debacle--at least until news of it broke surface?



You're right. Actions do speak louder than words.

[IndieLeft]

163. Yes, They Do...

And his actions over the years have greatly benefited the LGBT community. Are you willing to dismiss all the work he has done because of one incident which he has denounced?

[goodgd_yall]

32. McClurkin episode was political expediency

Obama had a chance to remove him from the concert and he had a chance to publicly---before anyone had to ask him about it---deplore McClurkin's statements. He failed to because he was and is pursuing the "church vote." In this instance in particular, pursuing the black churchgoer vote.

Obama did the wrong thing here. It's a dangerous place to be in when a supporter believes their candidate can do no wrong.

[NMMatt]

35. So how many male gays are opposed to Obama?

As far as I can tell, it is mainly a femanist thing among Lesbians. On the issues, Obama is slightly stronger - i.e. he supports complete repeal of DOMA whereas Clinton does not. This is according to HRC (the organization, not the candidate). The gays I know (all of whom are male and all of whom support Obama), have no use for the Clintons and felt sold out by them during the Bill's term.

I don't have a problem with women supporting a woman, because she is a woman. I just find the false outrage directed at Obama rather disingenous. And yes... the candidate with real courage would straight up support Gay Marriage unequivocally. But NEITHER candidate has shown any political courage on THE Civil Rights issue of our generation.

[mondo joe]

40. The HRC national survey, and exit polls, shows about a 2 to 1 gay split in favor of Clinton.

[NMMatt]

57. Not surprising

Since I'm assuming that's the total LGBT vote as opposed to the male vote. It really is an identity politics thing among lesbian women. But I suppose that they find that insulting, unless, of course, we are talking about African Americans. Then, from the point of view of Hillary supporters, it is okay to write off an entire community of voters to the fact that they identify with the candidate.

[mondo joe]

81. You're confused, and making assumptions about the polling. NT

[maddiejoan]

45. I find your accusation

that my outrage is false to be insulting.

-- and it's spelled "feminist".

[NMMatt]

52. You are easily insulted -nt

[mondo joe]

59. I love it when people who don't care about GLBT issues tell GLBT people

what we ought to think.

[NMMatt]

65. You completely misrepresented my post

Not only do I care deeply about GLBT issues, but I in know way am telling people how to think. I'm simply stating an observation that the vast majority of Lesbians appear to support Clinton. The most plausible reason being that they identify with her, since there is virtually no substantive difference between the candidates, with in fact, Obama being marginally stronger.

[mondo joe]

72. Not at all. Yuo alleged "false outrage". Furthermore, you are factually wrong: the HRC

ranks O and C identically.

[maddiejoan]

80. Like women in all subsets of all demographics

lesbians tend to be more politically aware and politically active.

[maddiejoan]

66. When it comes to

being told my outrage at my LIFE being called a sin is false outrage?

yeah --I guess I am.

Twit.

[NMMatt]

73. I never said that

In fact, you are the only person who has made personal attacks as far as I can tell. I made an observation that seems to not sit well for some reason.

[maddiejoan]

88. Post #35

"I just find the false outrage directed at Obama rather disingenous."

sound familiar, chuckles?

[NMMatt]

106. I do

It appears disingenous to me. That is my observation. I never made any ad-hominem attacks like calling someone a "twit." But go ahead and be outraged, perhaps it is genuine. It does not appear that way to me.

I mean where is the outrage for Hillary for refusing to support Same Sex Marriage and claiming that she personally believes that marriage is between a "Man and a Woman?"

[maddiejoan]

119. Hillary's position has evolved since then

Obama's has not. He still has 'personal and religious beliefs' that lead him to oppose same-sex 'marriage'

Hillary thinks it's a states issue and she doesn't oppose it on any grounds personal or religious.

I don't give a flying fuck if my outrage seems genuine to you or not --but your calling me on it is the same as publicly calling me a liar.

[NMMatt]

125. Apparently you have a lot of outrage to go around -nt

[maddiejoan]

139. Is this the political climate I can look forward to

under an Obama Presidency?

Where LGBT issues are trivialized as faux outrage?

[miceelf]

224. Hillary has evolved?

Do you have some recent quotes where she says marriage ISN'T just between a man and a woman?

[IndieLeft]

304. I looked for that... came up empty

[maddiejoan]

312. Here

http://gaycitynews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17379741&BRD=2729&PAG=461&dept_id=568864&rfi=6

[hulklogan]

58. At least one!

:patriot:

[Not Me]

71. I am a gay male...and I am still waiting for an apology.

I want to hear him say "I was wrong."

[NMMNG]

97. Your ignorance of LGBT demographics is showing

But don't let that hold you back from spewing bigotry.

[NMMatt]

110. Explain

So are both Lesbians and Gay Males 2-1 in favor of Clinton?

And how am I biggoted, by simply asking a question of whether more lesbians support Clinton (in very high numbers), with Gay males perhaps closer to 50-50?

[LostinVA]

317. "mainly a femanist thing among Lesbians?" "false outrage?"

"The gays I know..."

I just love your spelling of "feminist."

[Chovexani]

38. LMAO

Now, depending on your religious affiliation, you may decide to agree or disagree with what he is saying.

Tom Cruise says the trillions of alien ghosts stuck to us by the Evil Lord Xenu are the cause of human suffering, and we need to use soup cans to exorcise them in order to be happy. Mormons teach that every righteous dude will get his own planet when he dies as long as he wears his magic underpants. Buddhists teach that we shouldn't squish bugs because one of them might just have been Aunt Martha. Gardnerian Wiccans teach that flogging is a great way to get close to the Gods. Those are beliefs to be agreed or disagreed with depending on your religious affiliation.

The basic humanity of a group of people is not something to be agreed or disagreed with.

You guys really need to get a better script. Are the writers on the FAIL BOAT still on strike?

[mmonk]

47. Good luck with that.

[RoadRage]

48. The truth is, the GLBT members who bash Obama on his "Gay Rights Stance"

Just like Hillary better, and they choose to use THIS issue as the reason why, when obviously it is not.

Link #2 clearly points out that Obama does not view McClurkins views as his own. He states his support for this community.

There is no point in saying "get over it" because there is nothing to get over. Obama is PRO gay rights. If you don't like him for other reasons, fine - but he's made his stance on these issues quite clear, and if you choose to be to blind to see them then that is your choice.

Nope, i'm not gay.. i'm married, have about 100 gay friends, go to gay parties, but since I don't sleep with other women, i'm probably not "qualified" to speak on this issue. Tough shit, i'm doing it anyway.

[mondo joe]

53. You're full of shit. Several of us have explained that pre-McClurkin we could

have easily gone with 0bama or had no favorite.

You're right - you're not qualified to speak on it because you don't actually CARE.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mondo joe]

93. I don't know what you DO care about, but I know you don't care about our issues or our lives.

If you did, you might pay more attention to what we're saying.

[IndieLeft]

101. And maybe you might be a little more rational.

I don't hear you mentioning Edwards... who was against civil unions.

No, this is just a way to attack Obama. Anything to win.

[mondo joe]

113. I haven't mentioned civil unions at all, so why would I mention Edwards, who

isn't even running?

If you think the majority of gay voters are just PRETENDING because we just don't like Obamas, you're wrong.

[IndieLeft]

204. I mentioned civil unions...

you forget that? This is about rights... is it not?

[mondo joe]

210. What this is about is LGBT people deciding who is the better bet for us. And it's pretty sick to

have someone like you who doesn't give two shits about us, telling us who we're supposed to prefer.

[IndieLeft]

299. LIke Me... Funny

Now I gotta look... did you post this before or after I sent you that PM

[mondo joe]

310. Do you REALLY want to remind me of your tale of a lifetime of bad choices and trying to convince

yourself that disrespect was love?

[maddiejoan]

136. You have 100 gay friends?

I don't even have 100 gay friends.

As far as Obama's "views" being different --WHO CARES?

Why is out and out bigotted hatred being termed as a "view"?

Why is this "Homosexuality is a sin" garbage even a part of a secular political dialogue?

[LostinVA]

324. Ha -- not true at all -- most AREN'T HRC supporters

Only a few of us are.

And, not all are GLBT, either.

And, ALL of us attacking this have been on here for a long time attacking all homophobic garbage posted, and sexist, and racist, etc. Nice marginalization.

Oh, I so love the "gay friends who aren't offended" stuff. Forsooth.

[hulklogan]

76. I've wasted enough time trying to inform ignorant straight people about The McClurkin Fiasco

Sometimes one has to put one's fingers in one's ears and pretend not to hear the inane prattle of the unfeeling "progressives" who think GLBT people should be lectured to.

I don't need them to tell me what to think about Senator Obama, and I'm sure as hell not going to stop expressing my opinions on his less-that-complete support for GLBT Americans. But I'm not going to waste my time finding links for them to prove things they would already know if they didn't have their heads in the heterosexual sand.

[David Zephyr]

77. You are a breath of fresh air. But don't think logic will matter with some.

They already know their arguments are dishonest. They are aware that Barack has addressed this. There is no other liberal blog where a handful of Obama haters and (devoted Clinton supporters) continue to work this dead issue with false outrage.

You will not have any success with logic with them.

Their purpose is to smear Barack Obama, not to have dialog.

[dsc]

120. You can say this until the cows come home and give birth to aliens

and it won't be any more honest. He still hasn't admitted the guy spoke and he still refuses to apologize for what he did.

[David Zephyr]

132. Ah, there's my precious little shadow from the right.

It comforts me.

[ruggerson]

157. Wait just one goddamned second

I thought *I* was your "precious little shadow."

Double timing me, are we?

[David Zephyr]

159. You know, I thought about you, ruggerson when I posted this.

Oops, now you've caught me cheating on you.

But, ruggerson darling, you showing up so quickly, and, dare I say it...over-shadowing him...makes it clear to me that you can not be my precious "little" shadow because you clearly cast a bigger shadow.

I feel like Bill Clinton must have felt when he got busted.

[Orangepeel]

83. The LGBT community is not united on who to support for president

Obama has LGBT supporters, although I believe that a majority probably support Clinton. Why shouldn't they? On most issues (LGBT issues included), there isn't a whole lot of substantive difference between the candidates, so it is logical to base the decision of whom to support on campaign issues. "Candidate X provided a platform to a bigot and candidate Y did not" is a valid criterion.

I wish Obama hadn't have done that or at least had been able to rectify the insult. But I understand that some people may not be able to forgive him and/or support him. I hope, should Obama get the nomination, that most LGBT voters would work against McCain, who keeps flipping back and forth on whether or not he supports a federal constitutional amendment to define marriage as between a man and a woman (he's been consistent in his support of state amendments to do so).

But, even though I voted for Obama in the primary, I realize that he might have fucked himself out of many LGBT votes.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

103. "there are no homosexuals in Iran"...527's will will have a field day.

[DGoldman1212]

108. This GLBT'er is not fooled

I hardly shudder to hear GLBT prop Hillary Clinton up as the big gay defender. While you all stand waiting to hear Obama apologize for McClurkin, I am still waiting for either Clinton to apologize for "Dont Ask Dont Tell" and DOMA. I realize she is now claiming that she wants to overturn "Dont Ask Dont Tell" but shouldn't Bill be apologizing for this ridiculous "Jim Crow" type legislation? He is still parading around the country on her behalf and he has never distanced himself from it. The silly reasoning behind her desire to only do away with section #3 of DOMA is offensive to me. Meanwhile, Barack is ready to withdraw the whole measure.

Now...tell me again why Hillary is the voice for gay America?

[IndieLeft]

170. BRAVO!

Thank you! Thank you for having an open mind.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndieLeft]

197. That kind of language is not acceptable

Who do you think you are to talk to anyone on here in that manner?

[LostinVA]

325. Hillary Clinton wasn't president -- but you know that

Sockins.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndieLeft]

145. That is uncalled for.

Wow, maybe you should watch the videos I posted.

[boppers]

151. I didn't feel personally attacked.

I did see a Bi guy who's apparently a tad confused about other people not having the same choices as him, using a temporary pulpit to espouse his personal views on the matter, but that's a loooong, looong way from Obama personally attacking me.

What does "Gospel of Hatred tour" mean?

[dbackjon]

161. Well, most GLBT people such as myself felt that way

Gospel of hatred tour - Obama's 3 night concert/campaign events full of anti-gay hatred - people that call gays murderers, and worse.

[IndieLeft]

166. They barely addressed that issue in the concert.

I am not a religious person... not in the conventional way, and what I heard him say... was nothing more than bible-speak. The same stuff you can hear in almost any Church on any sunday.

The guy even made a point to say that he loves EVERYONE, regardless of sexual orientation.

I keep seeing that message, yet nobody had been able to show me some video footage. If it happened that way, like you say, then it would be all over youtube.

This is just political BS.

Obama has done tons of work on behalf of the LGBT community. That is a fact. And now, you want to ignore all of it because one moron got up and basically read the bible.

[boppers]

176. I saw it a tad differently, (at least, what I've seen so far).

What was preached, best as I can tell, was much more pro-GLBT than the bible.

Of course, that's not saying much.

[dbackjon]

319. So if Obama had David Duke, and other Aryan Nation folks do a concert

And only addressed the White Power issue briefly, you'd be ok with that?


The fact that these homophobes were there, selected by Obama to headline is the issue.

[Maven]

169. Did you just fucking DEFEND McClurkin's hateful, bigoted statements against GLBT people?

Are you fucking KIDDING me?

[IndieLeft]

178. NO, I did not. Maybe you need to reread it, because you are

obviously missing something.

[mondo joe]

180. Since so many LGBT people prefer Clinton to Obama, I think YOU are missing something.

And if you want to understand it, you should ask and listen.

[IndieLeft]

198. Maybe on here...

However, this is not the real world. This is DU

[mondo joe]

203. More than just DU. National HRC polls, as well as Dem primary exit polling show about a 2 to 1

split in favor of Clinton.

[IndieLeft]

271. A lot of polls have various groups 2-1 for hillary

that hasn't mean a whole lot.

[mondo joe]

272. Not Exit Polls. You sure do hate reality. No wonder you think truth hurts. NT

[IndieLeft]

287. Goodnite Mondo.

Have a good one.

[Iceburg]

193. Sounds like a crack-in good ex-gay candidate I can get behind/nt

[IndieLeft]

199. I am afraid to even ask where you are going with that one

[Bluebear]

230. Should we speak to David Duke too? After all, we need to "talk" to our enemies.

And Christian Identity adherents believe in white power. Depending on your religious affiliation, you may or may not agree with them, but if we don't talk to them it's just like Bush not talking to Syria.

Please.

[IndieLeft]

270. If you think you can change his mind... sure

[Bluebear]

273. Right, I can just see you undertaking such a conversion attempt.

He'd laugh you out of the building.

[IndieLeft]

280. LOL... Doesn't mean you don't try

[Baconfoot]

254. Oh, I can do that? OK, my religion says INSERT OFFENSIVE COMMENT HERE

Just adding the word "religious" to a viewpoint (e.g. GLBTQI individuals are suffering from an illness of some sort.) does not make it non-offensive.
It doesn't make it OK.

Damn.

[IndieLeft]

268. I never said it made it right.

But you can't blame someone else for McLovin's words.

yeah, i know that's not his name... just too tired to scroll all the way up.

[NMMNG]

275. Obama on LGBT issues, if you're up for a little reading.

http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2007/10/23/whats-the-matter-with-obama-this-is-not-a-question-part-1/
http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2007/10/29/the-homobamaphobia-tour-preacher-donnie-takes-the-stage/
http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2007/10/26/obama-on-imus-back-in-april-no-racists-on-my-staff/
http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/01/21/barack-obama-and-kirbyjon-caldwell-somebodys-fibbing-maybe-everybody/


In short, he cannot be trusted.

[Name removed]

286. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndieLeft]

288. Did I say I agree with him? No, I didn't.

And I will be here for a long time, because the mods see my point, and know what I am saying.

And furthermore, do not use language like that with me. I don't curse at anyone, do NOT do it to me.

[Solon]

292. Oh? Now you are lecturing me on my use of language...

fuck that, I was polite to Obama supporters before, and all I got was excuses for bigotry, left and right. I don't frankly care that you "disagree" with McFuckface's views, the fact is that you still excuse them. Just like fucking Obama. Its like me saying that I disagree with the KKK's interpretation of the Bible about the "Curse of Ham", but saying, "well its their religious beliefs..."

Its fucking inexcusable that people like you are tolerated on this board, homophobic enablers shouldn't be allowed.

[IndieLeft]

297. People like me?

You tell exactly what I have done wrong on here tonight? I posted an opinion, in which I said I disagreed with McClurking... actually I have said it in probably 20 posts in this thread.

I showed the video of McClurkin and what he said... for reference.
I showed 3 videos of Obama, including one where he said he did not agree with McClurkin.

I said I do not believe that Obama mean his comment in the way it is being taken on here.

For that I am labeled homophobic... which could NOT be further from the truth.

And for the record... as to your language, apparently the mods agree with me, as it has been deleted.

I have done nothing wrong, otherwise this thread would have been pulled hours ago, and my account would have been terminated.

For the record, just one more time, just for you.

I do NOT agree with or accept ANY of McClurkin's statements. Frankly, he disgust me. So let that be knows.

Have a nice night.

[Solon]

302. To JUST disagree with something is to also acknowledge that its a legitimate point of view...

That's my problem, right there, you can claim you disagree all you want, it don't mean jack shit. The fact is that you think of it as an issue of faith, when it really is an issue of bigotry. If someone were to claim that blacks were less intelligent than whites, would you claim that you JUST disagreed with it? Hell no, you'd call that person a racist ass, just like I call McClurkin a homophobic ass. Also, the fact that you don't even see what is wrong with what he said is a HUGE part of the problem. You will never understand, period.

[IndieLeft]

306. I didn't say it was a legit point of view.

I only said that he as a righ to have it. And, for the record, I have said REPEATEDLY that I think everything he said was BS.

I do get it. Do YOU?

I NEVER defended McClurkin. I defended Obama, who DID say that McClurkin's views are not his own.

Reread the post if you want. In fact I STRONGLY encourage you to read all of my posts in here. You will read me making that point over and over again.

We are in COMPLETE agreement when it comes to McClurkin. I just don't blame Obama for it.

Other than that, I wish you a good night.

[Solon]

308. You just can't call McClurkin a homophobe, can you?

I think that answers my first post nicely, thank you.

Oh, BTW: I never called Obama a homophobe, but even HE can't call McClurkin one. What a fucking cop out, for both of you.

[IndieLeft]

309. OH, is that it? McClurkin is a comlete homophobe

I thought that went without question. Sorry. If I knew that's what you wanted, I would have just said that in the first place.

McClurkin is a total hophobic.

Seriously... no sarcasm or anything. I thought I made that clear.

[kdpeters]

311. Anyone remember Bill Clinton's ads on right wing Christian radio in 1996 bragging about DOMA?

Time and time again, Clintons sold us out and threw us under the bus. She will do it again. Why has she done nothing as a sitting Senator for seven years that she says she will suddenly do for us as President? She has all the right answers and says everything we want to hear. It sounds just like Bill did in 1992. She'll do the same thing he did.

Some of the outrage over McClurkin is genuine. Most of it here on DU from the short list of usual suspects is not even close to credible anymore. I'm sick of hearing about it too. It's an issue, but not an unexpected one for any gay person who's been following our issues for more than a couple of years. It's certainly not an issue big enough to make this gay guy vote for Hillary.

[NMMNG]

322. "His beliefs, based on his faith"

There are people who and churches that have a "pick and choose" approach to the Bible and use it more as a weapon against others than a guide to their own lives. They use it to slam gay people over the head about the six verses that seemingly condemn homosexuality (some call those the "clobber verses"). In the meantime other verses get little or no emphasis because a great deal of the congregation would be guilty of those "sins" and it would cause too much discomfort or inconvenience for them. Hence no call for a constitutional ban on adultery even though it is forbidden by the 7th Commandment of the Bible. The Bible also forbids divorce far more times than it does homosexuality, and Jesus himself does so (whereas he never even mentions homosexuality) yet what church calls for a ban on divorce as a means to "protect marriage"?

In short, they are homophobes who use their Bibles and their religion to justify their bigotry. They cloak their hatred in religious terminology and hide behind "God's word" but it's homophobia pure and simple. Centuries ago racists used the Bible/religion to justify slavery, then mere decades ago they used it again to justify their objections to interracial marriage. Now they're using it to justify their homophobia and objections to same-sex marriage. Indeed, if you look at a side-by-side comparison you'll notice that the arguments against interracial marriage and those against same-sex marriage are eerily alike.

Bigotry is bigotry no matter how it is justified. Hatred in the name of peoples "deeply held religious beliefs" is still hatred and it can not be tolerated or condoned. People who claim the Bible/religion as their justification for denigration of non-whites are now considered radical racists. It's time that homophobes who do the same be relegated to the same fate.