12 years later, Republicans are still laughing their asses off...

[MonkeyFunk]

over DOMA.

It was, as anyone who was aware at the time, proposed purely as a political issue to hurt Democrats. If they voted against it, they'd be hurt with the general electorate. If they voted for it, they'd be hurt by the base.

They've been running on the gay marriage theme since then, and doing so successfully, primarily BECAUSE Democrats get divided by this stuff, and it gets their base out.

DOMA was passed a few months before the 1996 elections. It had passed the Senate by a vote of 85-14. It passed the House 342-67. There was no doubt it was going to become law. Either Clinton would sign it, or he'd veto it. If he vetoed it, it would be overriden handily, and thus become law. It would also gain Republicans many congressional seats, and endanger Clinton's reelection.

And there was also the threat of a constitutional amendment.

America has come a long way in those 12 years. But back then, the thought of gay marriage really wasn't accepted by any appreciable percentage of the electorate. Probably close to 5% or so. It was a no-brainer for the Republicans to use this as a weapon.

And here we are, 12 years later, STILL being played like a fiddle over this issue. Newt Gingrich thanks you.

[NMMNG]

1. Bingo

Bill Clinton didn't sell GLBT people down the river like people try to claim. His hands were tied and he did the best he could. DOMA sucks, but it's better than the law or FMA style constitutional amendment we'd have otherwise.

[sandnsea]

2. John Kerry voted against it

And John Kerry refused to throw gays under the bus in 2004, the way Bill Clinton recommended. Fat lot of good it did him.

[MonkeyFunk]

3. And what state is he from?

[sandnsea]

4. Running for the President?

Well all of them, and a fat lot of good it did him to stand on principle. Not that he'd do any thing different, but when Bill Clinton is defended in the face of what decent politicians have actually done, well it's just pretty damn disgusting.

[MonkeyFunk]

5. Kerry didn't run for President in 1996.

Now explain the benefit if Clinton had vetoed DOMA.

It would still become law. He would likely lose the election. Republicans would gain big in the Congress. A constitutional amendment drive would be underway.

You're STILL being played by Newt Gingrich. It amazes me that people can't realize that.

[sandnsea]

6. Gosh, it all happened anyway

Because we have had a party that hasn't stood for anything for 20 years. John Kerry knew in 1996 that he had ambitions to run for the President some day. He absolutely knew what that vote meant, and what every piece of gay legislation he ever introduced or advocated meant. He did was right anyway. He'd have never signed DOMA. So don't go bragging up Bill Clinton, he's never taken a courageous stand in his life.

[MonkeyFunk]

7. So if Clinton had done what you want

how would life have been better for anyone?

Newt Gingrich thanks you again.

[sandnsea]

8. Taking some stands to stem the tide

Clinton kept lifting anchor and getting swept closer to the rocks with every wave.

When I lived in Arkansas in the 80's, he had already implemented workfare programs that required people to work for welfare AND food stamps. I knew people there who had come down from up north when the Remington factory relocated to Arkansas. They were making a good union wage in the north, they had their wages cut repeatedly in Arkansas. No union. The factory was hiring at minimum wage. He did to the country what he did to Arkansas. It wasn't a step up for the people, it was just a great place for business.

They are not who you think they are. They are not going to fight for you.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. explain very carefully

how vetoing that legislation would've helped anyone.

Here are the obvious results:

Congress overrides - DOMA becomes law.
Clinton loses the election - Bob Dole becomes President.
Democrats lose a number of house seats and more Senate seats.
Newt Gingrich expands his power.
A constitutional amendment to enforce DOMA is in progress.

Come on, don't argue stupid stuff - explain exactly HOW Americans, and especially gay and lesbian Americans, would've benefitted from a Clinton veto.


And how do you NOT realize that this was EXACTLY the result Gingrich expected? That Democrats would blame Clinton for this 12 years later? It wasn't a Democratic idea. It was Gingrich's idea. He thanks you yet again.

[sandnsea]

10. Clinton would not have lost that election

After 15 years of skyrocketing inflation and unemployment? He wasn't going to lose in '96. He had just passed welfare reform. He was on a roll. He could have taken a stand somewhere.

And maybe if he had, they wouldn't have been so sure they could steamroll him with the impeachment either.

[MonkeyFunk]

11. So what about the other questions?

You seem to live in some naive political world where Clinton vetoes DOMA, and the Republicans go running with their tails between their legs, and gay people everywhere stand up and cheer.

DOMA was going to become law no matter what. And he may very well have lost the election over it. Do you realize how unpopular gay marriage was in 1996?

And what about congressional losses?

And what about a constitutional amendment?


You're expending an awful lot of energy not addressing the points under discussion.

[sandnsea]

14. I just did, but I guess I can ABC it

A. I'm 50. Gay marriage was rather irrelevant to most people because most people never thought it was going to happen EVER.

B. Bill was wildly popular in 1996 and remained wildly popular when literally caught having sex in the Oval Office. He was not going to lose in 1996. No way. No how.

C. Despite that, he didn't stand up for people anywhere.

D. We ended up with congressional losses anyway because Republicans were the ones pushing the agenda.

There was no reason to not veto DOMA.

Period.

And as an afterthought, maybe if he had stood up on some of these issues, the Republicans would have thought twice about thinking he would be a pushover on impeachment.

[MonkeyFunk]

15. Then you're just ignorant

Clinton was not wildly popular in '96.

We lost 2 seats in the Senate, but gained 8 in the house in '96.

There was no reason NOT to sign DOMA. It would've become law anyway, and much was at risk.

And the whole fucking thing was set up to cause exactly the kind of reaction you're exhibiting now. You've been played for 12 years now by Newt Gingrich. How does it feel to be his bitch?

[sandnsea]

17. He was not going to lose the election

And we lost 3 Dems in the Senate and only gained 3 in the House, we had lost 60 since 1992. The more he signed these Republican wedge bills, the worse it got. "Wildly" popular was an overstatement, but he was popular enough to not worry about winning.

The reason to take a stand is the same reason one always takes a stand, it's the right thing to do. It's what leaders do. It's the reason you say you're against Obama, he hasn't taken a clear enough stand against McClurkin. Either a stand needs to be taken or it doesn't.

And please stop being rude and vulgar. I haven't been disrespectful to you.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. The republicans netted 2 seats in the Senate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections%2C_1996

and we gained 8 in the House.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_elections%2C_1996


And Clinton may or may not have lost - there's no way to know. We would certainly have lost a lot of seats down-ticket.

[lapfog_1]

19. Actually, YOU are the one that is "his bitch" as you say

you are the one that is making the case that we shouldn't stand up to this intimidation crap.

you are the one suggesting that by going along with DOMA, we avoided the marriage amendment, something that would take years, years where attitudes are changing with younger people getting older, younger people who aren't concerned that gay marriage is going to undermine the fabric of society.

Stands taken now, even unpopular ones, lay the groundwork for a change of attitude decades later.

Or I should say, stands taken THEN, even unpopular ones (with the general public then)...

But hey, I guess Rosa Parks should have just moved to the back of the bus...

[MonkeyFunk]

24. Now answer the real questions

Would the veto have been overridden? Yes.

Would it have endangered Democrats in races from the President on down? Yes.


Would a constitutional amendment be better? No.

Not one damned thing would've improved for gays and lesbians in America had he vetoed it.

[Marrah_G]

29. Monkey-

Why are you arguing with Ignored again? You are always arguing with Ignored....geesh!

[yardwork]

37. I noticed the same thing!

[LostinVA]

39. I know!

Ignore must say a lot of things worth arguing over.

[theboss]

27. Clinton could have made out with a man on tv and beaten Dole

Vetoing DOMA would have had no impact on that election.

[lapfog_1]

16. Are you seriously suggesting that Bill Clinton

would lose the election in 1996 to BOB DOLE if he had simply vetoed DOMA and suffered a veto override?

Is that what you are suggesting?

Seriously?

[MonkeyFunk]

26. It's a possibility

Certainly congressional seats would've been endangered.

[LostinVA]

28. I think there was a 50-50 chance, yeah

Definitely many Congressional seats would have been gone.

[mondo joe]

32. Seriously - yes, could have. You have the benefit of hindsight. Going into an election,

everything is up for grabs.

[terrya]

34. It was very much a possibility

I have no doubts believing that.

[blm]

42. Exactly - having no problem with re-election put Bill in the driver's seat on the issue

and he chose to drive the truck carrying the bigots.

[ProSense]

36. Kerry was up for reelection and the vote earned him

"Time Magazine's 'Honest Man in Politics Award' for being only Senator up for reelection in 1996 to vote against Defense of Marriage Act"

"From voting against the Defense of Marriage Act to actively opposing ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,’ John Kerry is a true leader for our community," said HRC President Cheryl Jacques. "Just six months into his first Senate term in 1985, he introduced a gay civil rights bill. His aggressive support for our community continued unabated for the years that followed, demonstrated time and again by perfect HRC ratings on GLBT issues in Congress."

In 1996, Sen. Kerry was one of only 14 senators, and the only up for re-election, to cast a vote against the discriminatory Defense of Marriage Act. He also testified in front of a Senate committee in 1993 against the policy that prohibits military service by openly gay, lesbian and bisexual Americans known as "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell."

more

[MonkeyFunk]

40. Yes

if only the whole country was like Massachusetts.

[MagsDem]

12. But hey, Obama broke a new record

He threw us under the bus before he even won the primary. Yeah, let's all go vote for him... the guy who is going to transform things, the guy that is for change.

But, um, such a panderer that he gives homophobes a stage to spew anti-gay messages, and so cowardly that he is squicked by the idea of having his picture taken with the straight mayor of San Fran that thinks gay people should be allowed to be married.

Yeah, go obama, go..... away. You coward. You phony. You fake.

[NMMNG]

13. Why do you hate Hope?

:cry:

[Afje]

18. Yeah, stroking the fear of homosexuality worked like a

charm for the GOPhers. We;;, with a populance where close to 80 percent believe in angles and virgin birth, I'm surprised they don't lay it on any bigger. Any country where religion reigns, is bound to lose their ability for critical thinking skills.

[terrya]

20. That's right.

Hey, I despise DOMA as much as anyone. But your analysis is spot-on. And I would also suggest a similar explanation (well, somewhat similar) for Don't Ask Don't Tell. DADT is horrible, but it was the best out of a situation that got out of Clinton's control.

[Stinky The Clown]

21. On the upside ...... slowly, to be sure, but state after state is giving legal force to gay rights.

We have civil unions in a number of states. Imperfect and not good enough, but better than the alternative. There is momentum to increase this, not decrease it. Right here in Maryland, our General Assembly is considering a number of bills relating to gay issues, some which effectively say "Gay Marriage" on them. Our Attorney General came out in favor of Gay Marriage in the last day or so - the highest official in the state (he's #3), and the possible next governor, to ever have done so.

I agree that things are moving far slower than they ought to and that it is still very much a deep wedge issue ...... but I also think advances are being made.

[Arugula Latte]

33. A lot of kids, like my kids, are being raised knowing that friends and relatives are gay.

Offhand, I can think of at least five of my kids friends who have gay parents. My kids think nothing of the fact that, for example, Sammy has two mommies. They go to their house for play dates and birthday parties and the parents take turns shuttling kids here and there and helping at the school. When I was a kid, I never knew that there was such a thing as a gay person until I was about 10.

Hopefully, in a generation, banning gay marriage will be viewed the same way most reasonable people look at banning marriage between "mixed race" couples..Yes, I wish that change would come faster!!

[The Backlash Cometh]

22. I know a way to get the gay amendment passed with little pain to the

person who passes it. A strong Democratic president needs to turn this economy around, and when they do it, if the media gives him or her the credit for turning it around, and the Republicans don't steal that credit, then, and only then can that president get the mandate to pass something like a gay amendment right. Otherwise, this bad economy will become a cement block around his or her neck come around the 2012 election and gay rights will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Excuse the mix of metaphors.

[crispini]

25. K&R

[blm]

30. And Bill believed antigay measures on ballots in 2004 deserved support from Dems, so

how much HAS changed in Bill's POV on gay political issues since 1996?

[CyberPieHole]

31. K&R n/t

[Orsino]

35. Homophobia, like sex, sells.

America is profoundly divided over whether or not to extend full civil rights to same-sex couples, and discrimination still attracts most Republicans. It's an easy win for them.

[ProSense]

38. "If he vetoed it" Is it that he didn't want to or he didn't have the courage? Ans: He didn't want to

n/t

[rinsd]

41. It may have been an unfortunate political compromise but real people have been hurt by it.

I like to think that Bill Clinton knows that.