Scary shit here: Harold Ickes says Clinton would control a majority of the credentials committee...

[RiverStone]

MSNBC FirstRead 2/16/08 - last paragraph at link

Ickes repeated earlier contentions that there was no reason to "re do" the votes in Florida and Michigan and didn’t directly answer if they would participate in a re-vote in Michigan. Ickes also acknowledged that it would be possible for Clinton to lose pledged delegates but control a majority of the credentials committee, which ultimately decides if and how Florida’s and Michigan’s disputed delegations would be dealt with.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/16/671358.aspx

If this happened, it would make the protests of the 1968 Democratic Convention seem tame....

[blm]

1. Clintons have controlled Dem party structure since 1993. Controlled WEAKENING

of the party structure so it would be unable to serve other Dem leaders and Dem voters.

[juajen]

9. Bullshit!

Without the Clintons there wouldn't be a democratic party. The neo-cons would have successfully destroyed it.

[Political Heretic]

13. LOL that's some revisionist history.

GOP seats gained in House since Clinton became president: 48
GOP seats gained in Senate since Clinton became president: 8
GOP governorships gained since Clinton became president: 11
GOP state legislative seats gained since Clinton became president: 1,254
as of 1998
State legislatures taken over by GOP since Clinton became president: 9
Democrat officeholders who have become Republicans since Clinton became
president: 439
Republican officeholders who have become Democrats since Clinton became president: 3

[juajen]

18. OMG, you are accusing me of revisionist history/

How about Europe? Is Clinton to blame for everyone who has or has not been elected in Europe. You are blaming Clinton for Newt Gingrich's "Contract with America" which was thereafter discovered to be all lies? Clinton could sure have used the help of his own party during that time; but he was not their guy, so the pugs were able to move in. Clinton waited them out and wore them down, even with the shenanigans they pulled with illegal impeachment.

I wonder exactly what your agenda is?

[blm]

35. That's ABSURD. Clinton'S protection of Jackson Stephens and Poppy caused the turnover

of congress, Bush2, 9-11 and this Iraq war.

You really haven't read ONE GAWDDAM WORD of the IranContra Report, the BCCI report, or the CIA drugrunning report, have you?

THAT is the problem with too many Dems - you are so susceptible to spin and talking points you can't read even one gawddam REPORT for yourselves.

[Carrieyazel]

32. Conveniently minimizing the 2006 election victory, which has made your figures irrelevant now

If they were still in control you'd have a good argument.

GOP is once again the minority party in every single area you mentioned, and will lose even more seats this fall no matter who the nominees are.

[Cha]

20. The clintons were good little triangulators

and bil dilly dallying around really helped Gore become the next Prez..moral fucking values and all that.

[Johnny__Motown]

28. HA, the neo-cons would have destroyed this party if not for the Clintons

Wow that is so far out there I don't have the words.

[blm]

34. Exactly - Clintons ARE NEOCONS. But some are just too uninformed to see it.

.

[blm]

33. Bullshit! Without Clintons protection BushInc would've been in jail by the end of 1994

and instead we had Dems turning over keys to congress and Bushies planning their return to the WH in 2000.

There would be no Bush2, no 9-11 and no Iraq invasion if Clintons chose ACCOUNTABILITY and TRUTH instead of siding with the secrecy and privilege of the Bushes and their powerful cronies like Jackson Stephens, Dubai and Saudi royals - the same Dubai royals who started BCCI and were protected when Bill deep-sixed all its outsatnding matters - the same Dubai $$ who have been funneling MILLIONS into Bill's bank accounts.

[JTFrog]

38. Holy pedestal batman!!!!

The neo-cons have been living it up thanks to Bill pushing Nafta, Telcom deregulation and the repeal of Glass-Steagal. Remember when Bill used weapons of mass destruction as a hyped up threat to justify his actions against Iraq, including economic sanctions and bombing, which was really a veiled attempt at regime change in 1998. And his wife, knowing this, voted for the IWR and helped Bush finish the job in 2003. The Clintons have been a neo-cons wet dream.

And now Senator Clinton is already promising to bring the party to it's knees with her "Incendiary" do/say anything to win tactics.

It would be better stated to say that the democratic party is still together in spite of the Clintons.

[juajen]

15. Please explain to me how they controlled weakening of the party structure?

Understand when Clinton left office, he was very popular, but he was out of office. Are you suggesting that Hillary Clinton did this all by herself? Their cabinet scattered to the winds. They had no structure to speak of. Hillary had her Hillaryland staff to help with her Senate election and possible Presidential election, but as far as I have ever heard, this is it. How did the party structure make dem voters unable to do what dem voters do? You know, like vote? At this point you are making no sense.

So, please elucidate. I'm waiting with bated breath.

[blm]

23. Their chosen party heads allowed party infrastructure to collapse in too many

crucial states.

Dean has had to work his ass off to rebuild those party infrastructures state by state.

After 2000s theft the DNC said it would counter the RNCs tactics but instead they let the RNC gain control of every level of the election process where the votes are allowed, cast and counted. Some call it incompetence, others believe McAuliffe had no intention of a Dem winning in 2004 to keep it open for Hillary.

Clintons are NOT loyal Democrats. They backstab Dems any time they can protect their own power or the Bushes.


It has been witnessed by historian Douglas Brinkley who commented in April 2004:
http://www.depauw.edu/news/index.asp?id=13354

Typical of Bill to spend his THREE WEEK 2004 book tour defending Bush on Iraq decisions while Kerry was attacking those decisions:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

Carville sabotaged Ohio Dem voters on election night:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward


Hillary, typical show of her loyalty, sides with Bush over Kerry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[Windy]

2. Randi Rhodes has been talking about this for the last two weeks.

the credenitial committee is comprised of former members of the clinton administration.

[RiverStone]

4. Did Randi say if committee members could be replaced?

Picture the process of jury selection - both sides would need to agree on who sits (in judgement) of who our nominee will be on the committee.

Seems fair.

I sure hope our selection is known way before this shit hits the fan in August!


GoBama!

[juajen]

21. This is not a trial! The party rules.

Let the shit hit the fan. It will spray everyone, not just who you choose.

[HeraldSquare212]

3. I don't think they'd bail her out.

There would be too much pressure from the rest of the party.

[juajen]

24. You mean bullying, don't you? We are getting quite used to that from Obama supporters.

Perhaps everyone needs some lessons in what you do to stop bullying. Number One: Call their bluff and don't back down. Number Two: Find their weak spots and counter-attack.

[Yael]

5. Political suicide, IMO

[Alhena]

6. Relax- the Superdelegates will decide this for Obama long before the convention

Didn't you read Dean's statement a few weeks back that the party couldn't afford to let this drag on even past April?

All that has to happen is a large majority of the uncommitted superdelegates come together in support of a candidate and he/she will be the presumptive nominee. And Pelosi made it clear she favors Obama.

The Democratic party is simply not going to give the Republican party their wet dream of having Hillary Clinton to run against, unless they have no other choice (such as Hillary winning the pledged delegates and popular vote). And it's clear Obama is going to have the lead in pledged delegates at the end of the day- even the Hillary campaign recognizes this.

[RiverStone]

7. I appreciate your optimism...

Your probably right, but we have all seen a tiny few steal an election from the millions in 2000.

It has happened before - power is a damn tough thing to let go of once you have tasted it.

But relaxing is good advice!

In fact, the sun just broke through the fog here in beautiful rural Washington! Time for a hike :)



peace~ :grouphug:

[gateley]

8. I've also read somewhere that Dean doesn't have the heft he needs.

I took it to mean that if he suggested a combo ticket or that one of them withdraw, they might not go along with the program.

At this point, I don't see either acquiescing.

[Inuca]

37. And a couple of days ago I heard some Clinton supporter

(sorry, forgot who it was) discussion the MI/FL issue, and saying that the problem is compounded by the fact that the DNC has a weak leader.

[juajen]

25. So, let me see. It's ok if the super delegates get together and

give the nomination to Obama? I do not believe Pelosi was that clear. Even if she was, Nancy Pelosi is the Speaker of the House, not GOD. How do you know Hillary is their wet dream. They seem to be giving a lot of support to Obama. The truth is, the pugs will do their best in whatever way they can to derail the dems. Or, since corporate media, you know, MSM, is showing tremendous bias towards Obama, it looks like they want to run against Obama and are afraid of Hillary. Wonder what they have waiting for Obama, or if Obama is their man, what they have waiting for McCain.

[liberalnurse]

10. Fear mongers at large again

No one will be protesting unless they are paid operatives from the Oprah's Stables.

[juajen]

11. The threats need to stop. The party will do what the party was

put into place to do. If you want to change how the party operates, do it legally and timely, not right before an election. Talk about whiny babies! You would actually throw an election because your guy might or might not win. To beat the pugs we will need all dem votes and indies as well. So, stop your threats and theatrics, because two can play that game.

[UALRBSofL]

31. juajen I can't believe people hang on the word of Ickes

He is expressing his opinion like you and I. That doesn't mean it's true, it's just an opinion. That being said, FL/MI will do what's best and fair for both candidates and the party as will the S.D.

[MaineDem]

12. I believe each state's representatives are based on the primary vote in that state

So far, hasn't Obama won more states?

I think any attmpt to "control" this committee will be looked at as a very bad sign for our Party. Harold Ickes is pissing me off, for a number of reasons. This doesn't help.

[jackson_dem]

14. Oh no! Hillary is going to enfranchise Florida and Michigan Democrats!

Scary indeed, especially since we don't need those states in November!

[HeraldSquare212]

16. Credentials committee members and bios

This webpage has a link to a pdf listing the credentials committee members and giving their bios. I didn't read the whole page; I wasn't really interested in what the poster had to say, just a list of the committee members, so I'm not endorsing or agreeing with what the poster said, nor the website itself (which I've heard of but never read before).

There are some Clinton admin people on there (the chair is Alexis Herman), but there are also Dean and Edwards people on it, and others who are local officials (including a state senator from Montana, I think it was).


http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005014.html

[MaineDem]

17. That's not the entire committee

Each state has at least one member yet to be named.

[HeraldSquare212]

22. OK, thanks.

[maximusveritas]

19. That doesn't mean they can't think for themselves and see that would be a bad idea

I just don't see any way they would do that.

[Sulawesi]

26. Very scary...

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

27. This will be up to Howard Dean

In the DNC credentials committee, 150 votes are apportioned from the states in proportion of who recieved how many pledged delegates. The other 30 votes are appointed by the Chair -- Howard Dean. So unless Hillary or Obama opens up a HUGE pledged delegate lead, Howard Dean is going to effectively control the credentials committee and decide what to do with Florida and Michigan's delegates.

[MaineDem]

29. He has already named his choices

There's a link up-thread.

[TexasObserver]

30. You are Correct! This will be over before then because superDs have to go back home.

And they don't want to hear their constituents, supporters, co-workers and family say to them:

"ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR GODDAMN MIND MAKING HILLARY CLINTON THE NOMINEE??!!"

[madfloridian]

36. He was on the rules committee that made the rules he wants to break.

http://www.chippewa.com/articles/2008/02/16/ap/headlines/d8url34g0.txt

[NoPasaran]

39. The credentials committee makes it decision

But ultimately the convention as a whole is the final authority on seating delegations.

An example from history: In 1972, George McGovern had won the California Primary, which in those days came in June near the end of the primary season. And it was a winner-take-all primary, the victory made McGovern the clear leader over Humphrey. The Democratic Party had already adopted rules that in following years there would be no more winner-take-all contests. The California Party, friendly to Humphrey, decided after primary day that there was no reason to wait to apply the new proportional breakdown of delegates and sent a delegation split between McGovern, Humphrey and I think a few other candidates. The Credentials Committee seated that delegation, leading to a floor fight and the decision of the entire original, all McGovern delegation.

Ironically, McGovern had been the head of the commission which wrote the new rules doing away with winner-take-all.

So whatever noises are made about "democracy" and "respecting the will of the people", honestly fights over delegates are determined by candidates' actual strengths on the floor and not by adherence to lofty principles.