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No, Chelsea. Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it.

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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:37 PM
Original message
No, Chelsea. Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it.
February 16, 2008


The question was one she had heard before, but this time it was asked in downright hostile terms.

“Has your mother shown any remorse for the fact that her vote cost Iraqis a million of their lives?” a student asked Chelsea Clinton on Monday at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Ms. Clinton replied: “She cast a vote based on the best available evidence. Perhaps you had clairvoyance then, and that’s extraordinary.”

.....




With all due respect, Ms. Clinton, were these people in 2002 clairvoyant as well? We already know they were extraordinary.






What about these people?







And these?





They, and many of us knew, before this invasion, that it was a lie and it was wrong.




And what about this man? He knew.







And he knew because he was one of only a few people in Congress who read the entire 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE).


Your mother was not one of them. She would only steadfastly admit to having been 'briefed on it'.
Because of that decision, she did not have all of the facts. She based her decision to vote for the Iraq War Resolution only on Bush's carefully concocted lies.



Hillary’s War

By JEFF GERTH and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: May 29, 2007


On a Thursday afternoon in early May, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton rose before a nearly empty Senate chamber and proposed that Congress undo one of the most significant acts in its recent history: the authorization of the Iraq war. In remarks lasting just two minutes, she spoke bluntly: The “authorization to use force has run its course, and it is time to reverse the failed policies of President Bush and to end this war as soon as possible.” She added, “If the president will not bring himself to accept reality, it is time for Congress to bring reality to him.”

This was Clinton’s latest and boldest attempt to distance herself from her own vote for the Iraq war in October 2002 — a vote she has described as “probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make.”

.....

As she had always done, Clinton prepared for her decision on the war vote by doing her homework, or what she has called her “due diligence.” This included, she said, attending classified briefings on Capitol Hill concerning intelligence on Iraq. Indeed, Clinton was far more prescient than many of her Senate colleagues about the potential difficulty of rebuilding the country. In a number of private meetings with top Bush officials, according to people in the room, Clinton asked pointed and skeptical questions about how the administration planned to deal with the inevitable challenges of governing Iraq after the invasion.

But it’s not clear that she was equally diligent when it came to the justifications for the war itself. So far, she has not discussed publicly whether she ever read the complete classified version of the National Intelligence Estimate, the most comprehensive judgment of the intelligence community about Iraq’s W.M.D., which was made available to all 100 senators. The 90-page report was delivered to Congress on Oct. 1, 2002, just 10 days before the Senate vote. An abridged summary was made public by the Bush administration, but it painted a less subtle picture of Iraq’s weapons program than the full classified report. To get a complete picture would require reading the entire document, which, according to a version of the report made public in 2004, contained numerous caveats and dissents on Iraq’s weapons and capacities.

According to Senate aides, because Clinton was not yet on the Armed Services Committee, she did not have anyone working for her with the security clearances needed to read the entire N.I.E. and the other highly classified reports that pertained to Iraq.

She could have done the reading herself. Senators were able to access the N.I.E. at two secure locations in the Capitol complex. Nonetheless, only six senators personally read the report, according to a 2005 television interview with Senator Jay Rockefeller, Democrat of West Virginia and then the vice chairman of the intelligence panel. Earlier this year, on the presidential campaign trail in New Hampshire, Clinton was confronted by a woman who had traveled from New York to ask her if she had read the intelligence report. According to Eloise Harper of ABC News, Clinton responded that she had been briefed on it.

“Did you read it?” the woman screamed.

Clinton replied that she had been briefed, though she did not say by whom.

The question of whether Clinton took the time to read the N.I.E. report is critically important. Indeed, one of Clinton’s Democratic colleagues, Bob Graham, the Florida senator who was then the chairman of the intelligence committee, said he voted against the resolution on the war, in part, because he had read the complete N.I.E. report. Graham said he found that it did not persuade him that Iraq possessed W.M.D. As a result, he listened to Bush’s claims more skeptically. “I was able to apply caveat emptor,” Graham, who has since left the Senate, observed in 2005. He added regretfully, “Most of my colleagues could not.”

On Tuesday, Oct. 8, 2002, Senate Democrats, including Clinton, held a caucus over lunch on the second floor of the Capitol. There, Graham says he “forcefully” urged his colleagues to read the complete 90-page N.I.E. before casting such a monumental vote.

.....




We and the Iraqis have suffered enormously since that October, 2002 vote. We had the right to expect that all of our elected leaders would leave no stone unturned in the search for the truth about the wisdom of invading Iraq and why George W. Bush was so hell-bent on charging into a country that was not responsible for attacking us on September 11, 2001, with murder on his mind.


Senator Graham and only a few others took the time to investigate this NIE. And when he read the evidence in the NIE, he voted against Bush's invasion.


Where was Senator Clinton?



.....

In the early morning hours of Oct. 11, 2002, the Senate voted, 77 to 23, to authorize the Bush administration’s war against Iraq. The result was shaped in part by the coming midterm elections. Some of the senators up for re-election did not want to appear weak on an issue that the administration had skillfully tied to America’s “war on terror.” Clinton, having been elected two years earlier, had no such immediate worries. Even so, she positioned herself carefully.

For all the scrutiny of Clinton’s vote, an important moment has been lost. It came several hours earlier, on Oct. 10, 2002, the same day Clinton spoke about why she would support the Iraq-war authorization. In her remarks on the Senate floor, she stressed the need for diplomacy with Iraq on the part of the Bush administration and insisted she wasn’t voting for “any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for unilateralism.” Yet just a few hours after her speech, Clinton voted against an amendment to the war resolution that would have required the diplomatic emphasis that Clinton had gone on record as supporting — and that she now says she had favored all along.

The long-overlooked vote was on an amendment introduced by Carl Levin and several other Senate Democrats who hoped to rein in President Bush by requiring a two-step process before Congress would actually authorize the use of force. Senators knew full well the wide latitude that they were handing to Bush, which is why some tried to put the brakes on the march to war. The amendment called, first, for the U.N. to pass a new resolution explicitly approving the use of force against Iraq. It also required the president to return to Congress if his U.N. efforts failed and, in Senator Levin’s words, “urge us to authorize a going-it-alone, unilateral resolution.” That resolution would allow the president to wage war as a last option.

Clinton has never publicly explained her vote against the Levin amendment or said why she stayed on the sidelines as 11 other senators debated it for 95 minutes that day. In the end, she joined the significant majority of 75 senators who voted against Levin’s proposal. (A similar measure in the House also lost, though it gained the backing of 155 members.) The 75 senators were largely those who voted later that night in favor of the war authorization. Only four senators — Feinstein, Rockefeller, Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa and Senator Herb Kohl of Wisconsin — voted yes on Levin’s resolution and then voted yes on Bush’s war authorization. If Clinton had done that, she subsequently could have far more persuasively argued, perhaps, that she had supported a multilateral diplomatic approach.

.....





So, Ms. Chelsea Clinton, with all due respect, "clairvoyance" had nothing to do with it.

Due diligence did.


And precious few of our leaders practiced it, when so many lives depended on it.













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Prefer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Chelsea rox
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:42 PM by Prefer


"Hi Everyone. I am working to help my mother help us all. I am dedicated to her campaign because I know and believe in her."
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Unfortunately, millions of dead or displaced people can't.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:55 PM by sfexpat2000
But, good for Chelsea. Rah!
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FARAFIELD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
109. huh?
Now I know why she didnt talk to that Child reporter in IOWA, did she really say that? didnt 30 senators vote against it as well?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #109
188. 23 Senators voted against the IWR.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Original message
Yeah, but that's the Kreskin Coalition**nm
**
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #188
313. 23!
:patriot:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
253. Good point
:hi:
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
94. I just posted a similar point on an anti-Obama thread here
Which castigated us for not doing anything to try to stop the war.

Think I'll go back and edit and borrow one of your excellent pictures. Thanks.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe we should send this to Chelsea and get a patronizing congrats from her in response
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
121. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a snippy remark from Chelsea. The apple didn't fall far. nt
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Same thoughts exactly...
...it's like how does anyone DARE question what the queen...er...Hillary has done!
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
157. Huh?
What did you expect her to say? The question to her was way over the top the way it was put to her, after all, this is her mom you're talking about. Did you expect her to say that her mom's actions had killed millions of Iraqi's, regardless of how you may view it.

And of course now, the trashing begins of anyone Clinton, even Chelsea. Am I surprised? Absolutely not.
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #157
163. If she had simply said "yes, innocent people dying troubles her"
there would have been no issue.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #163
229. exactly
and if she opts to be out on the campaign trail, speaking on behalf of HRC, then she will get questioned about this, so she better get used to it.

Being snarky about clairvoyance does not help her mother's case. Everyone knows that hindsight is 20/20 but it didn't take hindsight to see that Iraq was never an imminent threat.
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muyojoe Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #163
234. I DON'T THINK THAT
Is something she could have said on her mom's behalf. It was a ridiculous question to ask her daughter. You want to ask Hillary herself, that's fair, this is a little too much.
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #234
236. you've got to be kidding
I know LOTS of people well enough to say "innocent people dying troubles him/her"
It's not like taking a guess at what they say in their prayers.

How many people do YOU count as friends that aren't troubled by innocent people dying???
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muyojoe Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #236
240. I'M TROUBLED BY WHATS GOING ON THERE
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 09:25 AM by muyojoe
Our difference is who to ask and hold accountable about it. Someone who has never held office, or someone who has.

How many times did they ask Reagan's son about those arms sales? None. Why, because he had nothing to do with it! This is simpler than you make it, the question is legit (in fact good) the target was not.

Besides did you see me laughing?
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #240
249. no... he wasn't asked because he didn't vote on the arms sale
pretty simple really

she did vote on issue at hand and she's running for president
Reagan's son did neither

as for laughing...
if you were even slightly objective you'd see how silly it is to think it 'out of line' for Chelsea to have simply said "innocent people dying troubles her".
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muyojoe Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #249
252. NO CHELSEA DIDN'T
That is who they asked. I said it is legitimate and right to ask Hillary, but not Chelsea. I know they have the same last name, but they should be easy to keep straight.
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #252
256. she wasn't asked about how SHE felt because SHE didn't vote on it
she was asked about how her MOTHER felt, who DID vote on it.
Chelsea is campaigning for her mother

As to whether she *could answer the question, I already addressed that.
The answer is YES.
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muyojoe Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #256
260. IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 10:51 AM by muyojoe
Chelsea didn't vote on it, and asking how someone else, even if you know them, feels about it, is just cheap. I can't tell you how my wife feels about something unless I've asked, and I'm not even sure of that unless I've asked recently. I'm sure they are not sitting around the fire at night discussing senate votes. Do I think that the campaign staff briefed her on how to respond? Sure they did. It doesn't mean that she knows how her mom felt. If you want to misconstrue the question to be about how Chelsea feels about how her mom voted, then that is a legitimate but cheap shot.

They should ask Hillary. I'm sure Chelsea has no psychic link or clairvoyance about her mothers feelings. Get over it, and get someone to ask the right person.

This is so stupid. I can't even believe I'm defending myself on this. If they had asked Mrs. Obama how her husband felt about something, I'd be defending her. What kind of journalism is this anyway? If you can't find who you should ask, then ask someone else how they think that person "feels" about it! Ask yourself, would Helen Thomas ask Hillary's daughter how her mother felt about it? At worst she might ask if she knew how her mother felt about it, but I think it would be beneath her.

I believe your position is untenable no matter the topic. Your basing your position on the topic, not the logic of the question
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Clovis Sangrail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #260
293. bullshit
I can tell you, without hestitation, that innocent people dying troubles my wife.
If I didn't know something that basic about her personality she wouldn't be my wife.
If you don't know your wife well enough to know if she would be troubled by innocent people dying,
one of you is bound to start re-evaluating that relationship in the not so distant future.

Why don't you go ask your wife?
Say: "honey, do you find it troubling when innocent people die?"
See if you don't get slapped for not knowing the answer.

Chelsea wasn't asked to read her mothers mind, but to confirm her mother's sympathy towards others.
She screwed up by being smary rather than just answering with a very simple phrase like "innocent people dying troubles her"

That you are defending her response says way more about you than Chelsea or Hillary.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #252
259. In what capacity
In what capacity was Chelsea making her public appearance? If she's campaigning for mom, she needs to answer questions on mom's behalf. Otherwise she should go back to whatever private life she normally leads and stop appearing in public.
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muyojoe Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #259
261. ON HOW SHE FEELS?
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 10:39 AM by muyojoe
Ridiculous! If she had just left a room talking to her about this subject maybe. But why? Isn't it more important to ask the person who made the vote. Should they ask every person who has given her support how they feel, other super delegates and the like. Are they also responsible to know how Hillary feels?

This is so stupid. I can't even believe I'm defending myself on this. If they had asked Mrs. Obama how her husband felt about something, I'd be defending her. What kind of journalism is this anyway? If you can't find who you should ask, then ask someone else how they think that person "feels" about it! Ask yourself, would Helen Thomas ask Hillary's daughter how her mother felt about it? At worst she might ask if she knew how her mother felt about it, but I think it would be beneath her.

I believe your position is untenable no matter the topic. Your basing your position on the topic, not the logic of the question.
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disndat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #259
283. Exactly right.
Chelsea is a lovely, classy young lady but she is campaigning for her mother, so she is giving non-answers to tough questions that even HC herself can't answer. I suppose the HC. campaign is on its last gasp, so they are using whatever options, however small and inconsequential, they have left.
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J R Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #157
179. Would it have been too much to ask...
...for Chelsea Clinton to show a bit of humility, shame or compassion at that moment when presented with such a stunningly harsh fact?? A million Iraqis, dead! How could she POSSIBLY defend Hillary Clinton's Iraq War vote??? What a shallow, rude, short-sighted person Chelsea's grown up to be; I'm disappointed.
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #179
214. Oh for pete's sake.............
You are the short-sighted shallow person you make Chelsea out be be. To make a sweeping judgement about her based on that answer made on the spot shows you for what you really are; nothing more.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #157
199. "Perhaps you had clairvoyance then, and that’s extraordinary."
This is the part of Chelsea's response that was inappropriate. She did fine with the initial response, but she personalized it and did so in a petty manner.

Rather than ridiculing the questioner, Chelsea should have done what her mom does when this question is asked, and placed the blame at the feet of George Bush.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-21-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #199
315. .
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #157
257. Well yes, this is what I would expect
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 10:19 AM by marekjed
"Did you expect her to say that her mom's actions had killed millions of Iraqi's, regardless of how you may view it."

This is exactly the kind of integrity that is called for. Instead, everyone is working in CYA mode.

While attacking Chelsea for her dad's and her mom's doings is missing the point (unless the point is to show what an insulated, ignorant person she is), but then - what is she doing campaigning for Hillary? If she is campaigning, any question that could be asked of Hillary is fair, she can't have it both ways.

"The question to her was way over the top the way it was put to her,"

OH MY GOD, poor Chelsea, she was maimed and tortured with a f*cking QUESTION! Spare me.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #157
263. Hillary Clinton deserves plenty of criticism for her votes
Chelsea's remark was understandable, given that the questioner was accusing her mother of being responsible for a million deaths.

Of course, if you're going to participate in a political campaign of this magnitude and put yourself in front of a microphone, you should be prepared for those kind of questions. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Bottom line though, Chelsea is not the issue here.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #263
306. If campaign coin pays for her appearances...
... she's fair game.

- Dave
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
216. Exactly . . . so true . . .
the cover-up immediately ---

"no one knew!" . . .

And -- unfortunately -- I think Chelsea is deluding herself ---
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FARAFIELD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
116. maybe she can cry next
AND GET SOME SYMPATHY
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
145. I doubt her opinion is informed
Maybe you're already aware, but take a look at her life thus far. According to Wikipedia, Chelsea has come back to positions associated with Clinton family. Which may be fine, etc., but it doesn't give me a strong impression she's out there on her own, and moreover, with her own informed opinion. I suggest that her environment may have been a sheltered one.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #145
197. Nooooo...
..."Sheltered?" The daughter of one of the nation's biggest political power couples? Say it ain't so...
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #145
230. then maybe she should
only do photo ops and keep her mouth shut.

However, if she opts to be out on the campaign trail, SPEAKING on behalf of HRC, then she will get tough questions, so she better get used to it.

If the campaign wants here out there to help soften HRC's image, then this sort of response does just the opposite.

Can't take the heat...
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
203. political entitlement is in the genes I guess
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
278. .
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Barack himself has said he didn't know what he would do
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM by DemGa
had he been there to make the choice. He's also said his criticisms were based on current politics. Now, where's the diligence?
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. I bet he would have read the report
its like following the rules of the DNC, its the responsible thing to do.

Gee, he's doing that isn't he?
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I have no idea what he would have done
And judging from his statements -- neither does he.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
92. Judging from his votes since he's actually been in the Senate
I don't doubt for a SECOND that he would have also voted for the IWR. Not a second.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #92
225. You must be kidding...
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #225
292. Not at all. nt
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
159. Of course he would have. He hasnt been close to PNAC like...you know....
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. He said that on Meet the Press when he didn't want to hurt
Kerry's chances to win in 04.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Amazing how such a wonk, someone who always does their
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM by Skwmom
homework failed to read the National Intelligence Estimate when they were deciding whether to send our troops (or fathers, sons, brothers, mothers, sisters and daughters) off to war.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
193. and in 2006. What is the excuse for that?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."
That's what he said. In 2004, he didn't know all the info the Senate had available to make their decision, that they had a lot more than was thought. He was leaving the possibility of some kind of secret intelligence, that's all. We now know there wasn't any. His vantage point was correct.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. Not the vantage point of a Senator who had to decide
And therefore, your point is moot. Besides, he said he doesn't know what he would have done. Period.

OBAMA: 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

And then there's the political expediency:

OBAMA: Now, Tim, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named Tim Russert on Meet the Press during the convention when we had a nominee for the presidency and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war, so it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a strong case against our party's nominees' decisions when it came to Iraq.

And this:

OBAMA: But keep in mind, I think this is a tough question and a tough call. What I do think is that if you're going to make these tough calls, you have to do so in a transparent way, in an honest way, talk to the American people, trust their judgment.

It's funny hearing Obama saying he "got it right" when he wasn't there, give a pass to Kerry, admit he doesn't know what he would have done, AND condemn Clinton all at once. Very bizarre!

http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #45
112. He did get it right
Kerry opposed the invasion in Jan 2003 and said Bush was not living up to the conditions of the IWR. He says he didn't have the intelligence the Senate had, but from his vantage point the case was not made. He got it right. Hillary supported the war and has only recently even come to the point of supporting any kind of withdrawal. She bullies Putin. Bullies Iran. She will be more of the same.

And Media Matters was co-founded by Hillary Clinton so I don't give a lot of credibiity to them on anything related to Hillary.
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
117. He still voiced a view that was unpopular at the time because it was the right thing to do.
When has Hillary ever done this?
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Healthcare '93...nt
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
125. actually I believe that had popular support, it was in congress that it failed
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LordJFT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #118
126. delete-dupe
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 08:30 PM by LordJFT
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
158. So your candidate stands as the only one with an IWR Yes vote.
That's just the fact. Get over it and stop your whining.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
162. I think he would have voted PRESENT
or FOR it
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #162
200. better than Hillary's "yes" isnt it
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
275. Unfortunately for your argument you don't know what he WOULD have done
we only have what he and Hillary actually DID do. SHe voted for the war he spoke out against it.
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Possumpoint Donating Member (937 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well Said!
Very well indeed!
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Very good post.
Thanks.

K&R
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
303. .
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pretty ignorant and arrogant comment on her part.
Two characteristics I don't want telling me how to vote.

I forgive her though, because she's young and its her mother she's trying to help.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. well, what would you say if your mother made that vote
The young lady (can't call her a kid, she's nearly 30 now) would probably not want
to think that her mother contributed to so many innocent deaths.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
308. .
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Obamanation is now savaging Chelsea Clinton?! Am I really seeing this happen?
Chelsea Clinton. A nice, dignified, kind young woman.

Is there anyone in the world who is safe from the smears of the Hope and Change movement??

Anyone? Besides Oprah, I mean.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. This was not a "savaging" of Chelsea Clinton
Yes, she is a nice, dignified, kind young woman.

That doesn't insulate her from being called out when a particular statement of hers is erroneous.

As St. Augustine said, "Love men. Slay errors." The OP isn't a savaging or even a personal attack on Chelsea Clinton. If she chooses to participate in the political arena, then people who disagree with her are entitled to express their disagreements. That's all the OP did.

When Michele Obama expressed some hesitation about working to elect Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee, that particular statement was attacked (and rightly so, in my opinion). This case is similar.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:46 AM
Original message
True---by demeaning is not good at all. take a peep at some of these hateful Obamacaper comments!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
36. Oh yeah.... "savaging." Savaging to disagree, or point out contradictions.
Savaging is Rush Limbaugh making fun or her looks.

In a free society, it is not "savaging" to challenge someone's state opinions and present evidence of an alternative perspective.

No one SHOULD be safe from critical thinking and questioning.

What's pathetic is the ridiculous ploy you are employing to treat any criticism as some sort of horrendous injustice.

Chelsea is a nice dignified, kind young woman who just happened to make a statement that is wrong and pretty ignorant, and I back that up with all the evidence already given. That's not "savaging" - that's called acting like a responsible grown up and questioning / challenging perspectives.


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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. If Mrs Obama had made a similar statement would you not feel it was a rude comment?
I really don't appreciate the "Obamanation" meme personally. x(

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
63. Reminds me of the horrible jokes McCain used to make about
Chelsea back when she was still just a kid. I see now that if Obama is the Democratic candidate, we truly will have two truly despicable candidates to choose between in the general election. Some people are downright hateful.
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Matteon Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
98. When?
When did Obama ever say anything bad about Chelsea?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #63
131. Excuse me?
1.) When has Obama ever said ANYTHING bad about Chelsea?

2.) How is the OP even in ANY WAY offensive to Chelsea? It's just pointing out that her statement is absurd.

Or is any sort of criticism of Chelsea an offensive and horrible attack?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
173. Obama is "truly despicable"?
That's all ya 'truly' got?
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #63
215. If Hillary can forgive McCain for the puerile joke he made about Chelsea
and according to none other than Big Dog himself, they're damned near best buds...why won't you?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
130. How is it 'savaging' to call her to carpet for an asinine remark?
I'm waiting.
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
194. No. They are giving death threats to Tavis Smiley for daring to criticize St. Obama
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
198. I would call it...
...taking a pampered little rich girl to task for ridiculing a member of the hoi polloi who asked a difficult question.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #198
209. "hoi" means "the"
Just a pet peeve of mine
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #209
213. Then you're also aware...
...the term is acceptably used in the modern parlance of American English as I wrote it. Yes, it's technically incorrect, but the phrase's usage in our culture is along those lines.

From Oxford American:

hoi polloi |ˈhoi pəˌloi|
plural noun (usu. the hoi polloi) derogatory
the masses; the common people : avoid mixing with the hoi polloi.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: Greek, literally ‘the many.’

USAGE 1 Hoi is the Greek word for the, and the phrase hoi polloi means ‘the many.’ This has led some traditionalists to insist that hoi polloi should not be used in English with the, since that would be to state the word the twice. But, once established in English, expressions such as hoi polloi are typically treated as fixed units and are subject to the rules and conventions of English. Evidence shows that use with the has now become an accepted part of standard English usage:: they kept to themselves, away from the hoi polloi (rather than | . . . away from hoi polloi).

2 Hoi polloi is sometimes used incorrectly to mean ‘upper class’—that is, the exact opposite of its normal meaning. It seems likely that the confusion arose by association with the similar-sounding but otherwise unrelated word hoity-toity.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
226. Yeah! Hands off the white women!
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 07:09 AM by ellisonz
:sarcasm:
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
231. spare me
If she opts to be out on the campaign trail, speaking on behalf of HRC, then she will get tough questions, so she better get used to it or go back to doing photo-ops only.

Besides, challenging her mother's vote for death and destruction (which is what war is) and challenging Chelsea about it not savaging "a nice, dignified, kind young woman."

Chelsea's snarky clairvoyance remark does not help her mother's case. Everyone knows that hindsight is 20/20 but it didn't take hindsight to see that Iraq was never an imminent threat.

Sheesh, HRC people are so thin-skinned.

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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
309. Ms. Clinton stepped up to the big person's microphone. Not a stellar performance...
... from the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Double Helix offshoot.

- Dave
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. That was a very defensive answer.
The question hit a nerve and she reacted poorly. :thumbsdown: x(
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
10. Excellent thread. And, my opinion of Chelsea has gone down quite a bit. How snotty.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
47. I have a feeling she really doesn't want to do this schtick for her parents.
she seems shy and withdrawn - and it would take a Lot of personal strength to go through with all this if she has self esteem issues .

but her stage parents may be demanding it of her. and all on their own terms.
Chelsea, hun, you go out there to stump for me and defend my vote for the slaughter of millions, you will be protected in that we will make sure no reporter can interview you or DARE say ANYTHING slightly NEGATIVE about you throughout this campaign - thanks to Mr. Shuster.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
82. I agree with you. She's a reluctant warrior. I'm sure she can't wait to get back to her own life.
I doubt it was her idea to spend three or four months on the stump, campaigning for her mom. She probably thought she'd put in a weekend in Iowa, her mom would sweep on to N.H. and Nevada, and it would be game over. Once they realized they WEREN'T 'inevitable', the pressure on her to become a campaign surrogate must have been intense.

And, she' probably grown up hearing political/campaign discussions 24/7. Ugh. She's also mostly been exposed to her parent's POV, and she's led an insular (and entitled, I might add), life.

I can see how/why she made the 'clairvoyant' comment. But that doesn't make it right.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #82
204. Pure speculation on your part. How dare you question her motives.
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misanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
201. What do you expect? Look at her background**nm
**
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
307. .
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ExtraGriz Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. good job chelsea..
this was a condescending mocking question, glad to see chelsea slapped her down
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Madam Mossfern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. One hoping to garner votes
best not 'slap down' questioners publicly. Chelsea is no ingenue in politics; she was weaned on it. That remark did not help her mother's campaign.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
61. No. It was a legitimate question.
Sorry. Her mom wants to hold the most powerful office in the world.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
149. Slapped her down?
:wtf:

If you mean that exhibiting zero compassion or remorse for a million horrible deaths somehow gains the moral high ground...

What is wrong with people?
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tokenlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Chelsea sounds so out of touch....
Clairvoyance my ass!! All these tens of thousands of people who had better judgement about Iraq. All these tens of thousands who were ignored. All these tens of thousands who had hope and believed that they could make a difference. No wonder so many people want to "turn the page. People like Mrs. Clinton blew us off then, and in an insulting patronizing manner presume upon us now.

I remember standing with one of those crowds. The president and/or leader of Barack Obama's United Church of Christ spoke out against the war and stood with us. Chelsea apparently has judgement flaws like her mother--or a lousy memory.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
90. Chelsea may be out of touch with the anti-war movement.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 06:37 PM by arewenotdemo
But then again, probably not many Code Pinkers do hedge funds.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
150. Paris, Rome, London, San Francisco, New York, DC... everywhere
The largest demonstrations in the history of civilization, worldwide, and the Clinton family is unaware.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
311. Let the military families eat cake, she sniffed.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. Quit picking on Hillary, she twusted Georgie Bush, and wules don't appwy to her either
shes just a helpless widdle wady who had no idea that Georgie would lie,
and she also didnt know that wules appwy to hur!

:sarcasm:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. LOL !!! - You Bad !!!
:spank:
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. ROFL!!
:rofl:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. great post pls provide a link back to the original article so
that people will see what the context was.

BTW The reason that this keeps coming up is because of the stubborness of Hillary in not calling it a mistake and taking care of it on "day 979" or whenever everybody in the country realised it was a mistake. By not taking that very sensible step she has left her supporters and in this case Chelsea with nothing more than sarcasm. Its Hillary's mistake not Chelsea.

This is the same position we were in much of the time with Bill when he couldn't admit to an error and it is the boat we will all be in if in its insanity the democratic party nominates Hillary. Its one thing to be wrong about the war many good people were, and I gave Edwards a pass on it (so I would have done the same thing with Hillary). But this stubborness reveals a charachter flaw that "isn't worth a roll of the dice".
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. The link is within the boxed quote's text. n/t
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lisainmilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
187. You got it!

BTW The reason that this keeps coming up is because of the stubborness of Hillary in not calling it a mistake and taking care of it on "day 979" or whenever everybody in the country realised it was a mistake. By not taking that very sensible step she has left her supporters and in this case Chelsea with nothing more than sarcasm. Its Hillary's mistake not Chelsea.

This is the same position we were in much of the time with Bill when he couldn't admit to an error and it is the boat we will all be in if in its insanity the democratic party nominates Hillary. Its one thing to be wrong about the war many good people were, and I gave Edwards a pass on it (so I would have done the same thing with Hillary). But this stubborness reveals a charachter flaw that "isn't worth a roll of the dice".


If Bill had been forthright and remorseful in the Lewisnsky case and Hillary forright and remorseful with the Iraq vote, Chelsea would not be defending questions like this. I bet she will be glad to get back to her own life, lets hope she has not picked up the same habits.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is one of those posts that will still be valuable 2 years from now.. thank you So much. One for
my email list, excellent info. K&R
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, the questioner should have followed-up asking whether the full Iraq NIE ...
... wouldn't have been a major portion of the "best available evidence" and why Sen. Clinton opted not to read it before voting to allow troops to be sent into harm's way.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. She Didn't Need To Read It...
She was "briefed":sarcasm:
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
182. Exactly. Somehow she was "briefed" by people who weren't authorized ...
... to read the full, 92-page classified Iraq NIE. Or was she briefed by one of the 6 Senators who actually bothered to read the document before voting to allow Bush to send the troops into Iraq?
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. Another Clinton demonstrates the common touch. n/t
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
93. Touche.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Outstanding.
Thank you.

Nominated.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Oh. Little Miss "Pure" can get snippy, huh? If she can dish it, I hope
she'll be able to take it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
25. She's a Clinton, all right.
:puke:
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Seeker30 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
26. In the meantime Obama votes to continue funding the war
Fucking hypocrites
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tokenlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. No one has clean hands on this...
To cut off funding opens us to charges of "not supporting the troops." Since the transforming influence of Reagan--dems have had to fight the "weak on the military" charges. That shadow of Reagan still "dogs" democratic politicians.

It's not right, it angers me--I wish they'd all shredded the Iraq checkbook long ago. But until we control both the White House and Congress this war will go on.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
31. Someone ought to send this to Chelsea with dates...
so she might have a clue she misstepped with her answer....
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
34. I think I stepped off into Free Republik
Those cretins deliver no less vitriol toward the Clintons -- Chelsea included -- than what I see here.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. You said it. They should change the name to

OO.

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Seeker30 Donating Member (904 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. I don't think...I know
and realized it quite a while ago.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Then, you would be wrong. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. Really? How many freepers marched ahead of the war?
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 04:15 PM by sfexpat2000
Excuse me, but MILLIONS of people who knew better she did. And I bet you, few of them were freaks.

It wasn't ROCKET SCIENCE to know this war was BULLSHIT and that innocent people were going to DIE. You didn't need to be Edgar Cayce to know this was bullsh!t.

You didn't need to be a prophet to see why Clinton was voting for the indefensible. She was setting up this run and her image was more important than human life.

And, she's reaping what she sowed with that political calculation. As she should. It was her vote after all.








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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #46
123. Well, I would venture not many of them marched against the war at all.
Instead they complained about the heat in the deserts of California and blamed Governor Grey Davis for the high electric bills.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
133. well done.
:pals:
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
142. "She was setting up this run and her image was more important than human life."
That's pure supposition. Careful blurring opinion and fact.

--St. Obama has said he did not know what he would do.

--Provided political cover for Kerry over his vote.

--Claims he "got it right" when he was not there. It's just a silly argument -- Again, more rampant supposition.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #142
151. Oh, please. We all saw this run coming before she ran in New York.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 09:07 PM by sfexpat2000
And, I do not worship at Obama's temple. thanks. That's just a red herring.

When you are a US Senator, you can be responsible for your votes or you can send your daughter out to muddy the waters. That's the kind of "leader" Hillary is.

Eta: I know I sound too mad. I'm mad at every weasel who voted for that POS and is now trying to slime out of what they brought upon us all.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
168. If ANYONE sitting in the Senate should have know the Iraq was was bullshit, it would have been HRC.
By their own admission, HRC was privy to much of the same intelligence as her husband. She was his confidant. They were a team. She knew. SHE HAD TO KNOW. But to be fair, I don't believe the vast majority of those that did vote to invade Iraq believed the cheney*/bush* misadministration's lies. I believe most did what was politically expedient and decided to hedge their bets and make the easy vote.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #168
210. Amazing how the war has made us forget what WJC himself did to Iraqis
From the deadly sanctions to the sporadic bombings of power plants.

All part of her "35 years of experience"? In that case she has an even higher body count than *...
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #210
233. which is exactly why
she had to know the whole thing was a lie.

How does a country that was bombed to bits in 1991 and then bombed sporadically as well as kept under sanctions thereafter morph an imminent threat to the US in 2002? :shrug:

It was all a lie and she damn well knew it.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #233
267. I also can reach no other logical conclusion. HRC voted for a lie.
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 11:33 AM by Raster
It was the "American politically correct" thing to do at the time. And. I. Will. Say. Again.--I believe the vast majority of the members of Congress that did vote cheney*/bush* Iraq war powers did so KNOWING--or at least believing--THAT IT WAS A LIE! This includes Clinton, Edwards, Kerry, etc. They did so because: (1) the prospect of enduring the blowback from the cheney*/bush*/rove* smear machine was a Congressional career killer; and (2) No one expected cheney*/bush* to fuck up Iraq as badly as they did. Had cheney*/bush* succeeded in Iraq--invading, stabilizing, democratizing AND retaining control of all that lovely oil--they would have been hailed as brash, bold visionaries. Further, they would have proven their PNAC manifesto as correct, perhaps even ushering in the Pax Americana they all had wet dreams about. on edit: Unfortunately, instead of brash, bold visionaries, we got the gang that couldn't shoot straight and have seriously screwed up EVERYTHING they have touched. The cheney*/bush*/rove*/rice* team will not only go down in history as the WORST PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION EVER, but also be noted for their Fellini-esque, Keystone Cops bungling. It might be somewhat humorous if it weren't so tragic on SO MANY LEVELS.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #46
232. "she's reaping what she sowed with that political calculation"
exactly. And calling her on it is not being a freeper.

If anything, the posters here who question, label and otherwise disparage those of us who point out HRC's past "leadership" and judgment failure are more like freepers. How dare we challenge the queen... is like their how dare anyone challenge Bush.

Sheesh.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
132. more of the 'victim' bullshit.
:puke:
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
221. Exactly....
the Obama "supporters" at DU have me wondering if I CAN pull the lever for their messiah should that time come. I've never seen such spiteful, hateful, adolescent vitriol on the pages of DU against another Democrat -save Joe Lieberman- and Hillary is NO Lieberman.

This childish hatred of the Clintons reeks of FR, and it's quite sickening. I always said I'd vote for any Democrat that won the nomination, but pulling the lever for a cult leader is something altogether different.

Obama's "supporters" may be his worst enemy when it comes time to get elected.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. Excellent post. Well written!
K&R
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
41. There is a sickness in the Clinton family.
Called avoidance of responsibility. It is a clear lack of virtue or moral character to not assume responsibilities for one's own action.


Millions upon millions of the people of this world condemned the war vote.

No..... Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it, but laziness uncaring self serving war mongery had everything to do with the Clinton vote.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
44. Chelsea is the Clinton's perfect faux-victimization tool
They send her out and let her give elitist bullshit answers like this knowing that any attack made on her will be seen as "cruel", "picking on a young woman", and "sexist" by Clinton supporters. Once again, letting the Clintons get their crap out and then play the victim.

Smart ass answers like Chelsea's make it obvious how out of touch those with wealth and power truly are. They'll never have to serve, so why should they take the time to use google for two minutes and become "clairvoyant" themselves?
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Sounds to me like Chelsea has picked up a bit of her mother's charm. Lovely.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
48. 22 Democratic Senators and Barack Obama didn't cave on IWR.
Chelsea can be excused, since she was ONLY a 22 year old senior at Yale in 2002, but her mother has no such excuse.

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
68. He also didn't vote against Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 ) either. Seems he wasn't even there.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 04:49 PM by Jamastiene
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

When was Obama elected to the Senate?
The answer is here:
http://obama.senate.gov/about/

Might not hurt to be honest complete with sources instead of spinning to make your candidate look like he has done more than he has actually done. Have you looked into any post offices that need some names. I would imagine you Obama supporters are going to be busy doing just that for the next 4 years if he is elected. Not much else, unfortunately.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
50. It was the largest protest ever, in the entire history of the world.
36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 anti-war protests, the demonstrations on February 15 2003 being the largest and most prolific, with 6-30 million, depending on estimates, protesting on the one weekend alone in 60 countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest

It's unbelievable that she would refer to any of these people as being extraordinary in their ability to predict the future.

What's extraordinary is that when faced with the largest protest in world history, people like Hillary Clinton found a way to dismiss the concerns of the entire world.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. And it hardly made a peep in U.S. media coverage.
It did get covered, but not much.
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StarryNite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
52. That was an honest question.
Another honest question is how could Hillary not have known when so many of us who marched in the streets knew it was a lie and it was wrong?
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_Wayne_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
53. I joined many protests in 2003, and support Hillary now because she will be an infinitely better
president.
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paperbag_ princess Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
54. You have an excellent point, but I wonder
why since very few of our leaders did their due diligence we are not crucifying them all on this issue like we are Hillary.

Why is she the only one bearing the brunt of the wrong decision? Why not Kerry? Edwards? why not Obama since he is still funding the war? Why are we not tearing down this new congress who promised an end to the war .....that everyone is still funding...

Cut the funding and everyone comes home. It can be done quite responsibly.

Yet Hillary is the enemy???

You had a beautifully put together post...many of that group were most likely anti war for any reason ....but many put 2 and 2 together...I was just an average American who got it wrong...I am one of those whose hatred of the Bush administration comes in part from their lies.

How will this idea that "We got it right" and all of the rest of you are idiots, uninformed or corrupt will play in the GE? or is this attack specifically reserved to bring Hillary down?...and everyone else gets a pass
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. I don't know but maybe you can start by
pointing out which of those you listed are pointing the finger at the vast majority of intelligent human beings who got it right and belittling them?


Perhaps then you will have your answer.
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paperbag_ princess Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. not quite sure what you are trying to say
You seemed to have missed the main point of my post....which is why just Hillary? I assume because it is convenient to bring her down.

I guess that IWR votes and support won't matter anymore if she is taken out. Which is good...it won't play well in the GE.....most people just want to get the heck out...they don't want to be reminded that they were lured in like fish on a hook.

I think it is dishonest to just attack Hillary on this and give everyone else the "get out of jail free" card..
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. It is because she is attacking
All of this would be settled if not for.

No apology
Attack
Belittle


People don't like people who can't admit mistakes
People don't like being treated as they did something wrong when we all know that they were right.
People really don't like being belittled
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paperbag_ princess Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. so all this is a preschool game of she didn't say she was sorry?
you want her to pander to you and admit that you were right and she was wrong....

I think that that is splitting hairs and looking for a reason to stay angry at her. She admits that the outcome was not what she wanted...but she gave the best vote with what she thought at the time....so did Kerry and so did Edwards....The only reason they appologized was to appease the left...

honestly...if you don't realize that she would be attacked mightly for being weak by apologizing then you are just not being fair....she is between a rock and hard place trying to confince the nation that she can be just as strong as a man...something men don't have to do....she is playing with an unfairly stacked deck of cards...plus she is the only candidate simultaneously defending against the right and the left.

She is walking a tightrope as a woman...you are holding a parsing of words against her....that is not fair...but I realize life isn't fair.


I haven't seen where she has attacked or belittled...I am willing to listen to an example though

and that still doesn't address the hypocrisy of funding a war you don't support
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. people died because of her vote.
I am sorry this is no game.

Though try as you might to make it one. I and many others view her current stance as reprehensible. Chelsy is delusional if she feels belittling 36 million plus people who were right by calling them clairvoyants playing Monday morning quarterback.

Just plan sick if you ask me.
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paperbag_ princess Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. you are getting off point and not defending your logic
Of course it is not a game....

If you want to blame her for the deaths in the war...then you have to blame everyone else that voted for the war too....it is intellectualy dishonest not to. You can't put all the blame on her shoulders just becuase that helps the cause of the candidate you support.

If you are really arguing that the reason she is not qualified to be president is because you did not think her apology was good enough then that is playing a game.

Chelsea was not belittling people to call them clairvoyants....she was probably sick and tired of having her mother be the one that bears the entire weight of the mistake of this war....when it should rightly be placed completely on the shoulders of George W Bush and his lying sad sack of an administration.

Chelsea was wrong though...there were people who saw the writing on the wall. Hillary was wrong to support that war.....she should have seen the writing too....as should have most of our wonderful democratic leaders....and maybe Obama did see the writing on the wall....but he has still not voted once to erase the writing on that wall...(as in voting to cut funding)

peace out :)

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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. two wrongs don't make a right
"Chelsea was not belittling people to call them clairvoyants....she was probably sick and tired of having her mother be the one that bears the entire weight of the mistake of this war....when it should rightly be placed completely on the shoulders of George W Bush and his lying sad sack of an administration."

Chelsea is wrong and yes it is a belittling statement to call someone clairvoyants just because they were right.

uhhh.... where in the hell did you get Clinton is the only one who bears the entire weight of her mistake from? She has yet to even accept that weight.

George W Bush does not bear the entire blame for the Iraq war. This is America and the president does not declare war sorry wrong constitution.



You asked for the reason I gave you several.

There is a clear and irrefutable difference between the folks on your list. You may not want to see it or care to look for it but it is there.

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paperbag_ princess Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. we will have to agree to disagree
I think that you are being a bit overly sensitve. I see that Clinton is bearing the weight (of all the dems) based on me reading DU for about 5 hours a day....

GWB is the one who lied ....others may have been lured in like fish....but they did not start or desire this monstrosity....

Cheers to those who are consistent like Donsolo down thread.....clear and irrefutable? You can't just say it and make it true.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
79. I haven't forgiven Kerry or Edwards on their IWR vote
One of the reasons that I chose not to support Edwards in the primary was because of it.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
110. Good for you. Seriously.
I don't agree with your position, but I fully respect it.

I find it hard to respect people that would take something as simple as an apology if they considered the vote for the IWR to be a vote to invade Iraq, rather than a policy that *could* lead to an invasion if it was not complied with.

In my view, the latter is what the Democratic Senators envisioned. People who truly believe it was the former shouldn't settle for an apology, in my view.





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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #110
211. It's not some grade-school desire to say "I told you so"
It's the fact that she has as of yet given no indication that she understands that her IWR vote actually was a horrible mistake.

If she doesn't even understand that, I don't feel she's fit to be CnC.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #110
239. wrong!
23 other Senators got it right and one in particular, Robert Byrd, gave a moving speech warning his colleagues against ceding their constitutional power to the administration. He warned about the administration's hubris, the lack of evidence for war, the lack of need for such a resolution, the uncanny time of the resolution (just before the 2002 midterm elections), the rush to war with all of it's consequences AND make no mistake about it that fact that voting for the resolution was voting for war!

They all knew. We expected the repukes to vote with Bush but interestingly, on the Dem side, mainly those with POTUS ambitions did so. They went along to get ahead politically.

John Edwards apology was too little to late. There are no do-overs in war, no reincarnation of the dead, no restoration of the order and society that was peacefully minding its own business.

His apology for his IWR was also not proceeded by pronouncements against going to war BEFORE March 20, 2003. And for a champion of the little guy, why did he vote -- again with Bush -- for the Bankruptcy Bill and the Patriot Act. When he had power he got it all wrong! As did Hillary and other Dems.

Fool me once...

Well, I have had it with those so-called Dems who put their political ambitions above all else and whose past votes are SO WRONG on everything.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #79
237. Me, too
I held my nose to vote for them in 2004 because I met them both here in SC during the summer of 2002 when they were tag-teaming the state leading up to their individual presidential bids at the same time that the administration was beating the war drums against Iraq,

I'll never forget how condescending Kerry was when I begged him not to go to war against Iraq. Talking to me as though I was some dumb southern hick, he started speechifying about how dangerous Saddam was... but I cut him off, bluntly saying Iraq did not attack us and Bush is a liar.

'Course we all know the rest. I am sick and tired of all of those -- even with a D after their name -- who put their political ambition ahead of truth, morality and political courage.

October 11, 2002 should be designated another day of infamy!
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
55. The Obamanation will do anything to win including attacking Chelsea..
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 04:22 PM by yadayadayada
This post is disgusting. Wait till the Rezko trial starts and you learn your Savior has clay feet.
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slick8790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. If she goes and patronizes the literally millions of people who were vocally
and actively against this war, then that opens her up to criticism. I'm sorry, but if she wants to participate in her mother's campaign and campaign for her, she's responsible for her remarks.
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NJObamaWoman Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Calling her ass out isn't attacking. She's a grown woman now
and if she is out there than she deserves to be called on her B.S.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. I've never said a bad word about Chelsea, and never tolerated it, but now ...
But now, she's 27, a college grad, a Hedge Fund worker, and most importantly, an active surrogate giving political appearances ASKING young voters to come see her and to ask her questions.

If she doesn't want to be held responsible for the role she is taking, she should stay home, or stop making appearances where she has a speaking role.

Unfortunately, Bill and Hill still think they have a right to protest any media attention of Chelsea that focuses on her political role UNLESS it is a fluff piece that merely applauds her for being there, which CNN does endlessly.

Her comment to the student who asked the IWR question reveals the same arrogance that has gotten Hillary into the losing campaign, and the same arrogance that almost ended Bill's presidency.

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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. Well said. Why is Chelsea so fragile? The Kerry girls weren't sheltered from criticism.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #72
217. Excellent points.
:kick:
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #72
241. Touche! K&R
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
75. i`m waiting for rezko too...
so i can read the posts that fitzgerald was paid off by the "obama outfit" to bury their collusion with rezko.it will be a sad day when obama is`t "perp walked" down the streets of chicago...
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
134. it's called 'criticism'...the OP was pretty gentle.
Chelsea made a foolish remark. The OP smacked her down, without being nasty or dirty about it.
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #134
269. The OP "smacked her down"?. The verbiage here gets
more and more worrisome.

I know, I know hyperbolic rhetoric, "smacked her down" is just an affectionate teasing. Got it.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #55
266. Not for Obama
I think the remark by Ms Clinton was rude. She could have used other words.

Personally, I hope they go to convention and neither Clinton or Obama get the nomination. I still support Dennis Kucinich, who has been consistent in his opposition to war. He needs to remain in Congress.

If either Clinton or Obama get the nod, I'll vote for them, but my heart won't be in it.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
59. Ya Know... Those Pictures Bring Up An Interesting Question...
One has to wonder how many of us here, that marched in the anti-war protests, are supporting Hillary Clinton in the primaries?

I marched, and I definitely am not.

:shrug:
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Nope. Marched in 02 and 03. n/t
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #59
164. I marched,
and I will never forget how angry I was after the IWR vote. I doubt that many people that saw the Iraq War coming as a result of the IWR and the almost inevitable disaster it would be is supporting Hillary in this primary
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #59
208. I marched ... I knew Bushco were fucking liars ... I'm voting Obama.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #59
242. Count me in
marched, wrote letters.

I will NEVER support her.
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
62. Even my father who voted for shrub knew the war was bogus.
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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
272. So did my Repug family/coworkers. I remember. And I knew it was BS too
what alternative-based reality world is Chelsea living in exactly? For this comment alone, I will NOT vote for Hillary Clinton-ever.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
65. So if Obama, who predicted correctly exactly what would happen happened, isn't HE clairvoyant and
shouldn't that qualify him to be president? :D
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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #65
290. You obviously don't see ...

You obviously don't see the difference. You see Hillary actually had to vote. And for 4 years she voted poorly.

On the other hand, Obama was a state legislator. And in that time, he only had to correctly make prediction that would garner him overwhelming support for higher office.

Of course I'm being fecicious.

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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
69. Before the war started, people from Code Pink
and others camped out in her New York offices, begging her not to vote for it.

Anyone with half a brain and access to the Internet would know that this was giving Bush authorization to start an illegal and immoral war.

Those who say "We didn't know! We trusted Bush!" have bullshit coming out of their ears.

It was done for political expediency, and screw the uncountable thousands and thousands who have died because of it.

Thanks for the post-- K&R
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. Code Pink, 22 US Democratic Senators, Barack Obama, and most progressives KNEW
This is the one thing that riles me the most. We all remember the run up to the IWR, how it was a Rovian designed ploy to either paint Democrats as the party of peace right before the election, or force us to be seen as the War Party Lite.

Sadly, many of our Democratic senators caved in, mainly because many of them had presidential ambitions for 2004, and they thought a vote against the IWR would box them in. I do hold those senators accountable. I held John Edwards and John Kerry accountable, but they got RIGHT.

We who live and breathe Democratic politics know what it means to "get right." It means a politician acknowledges they were wrong. It means they get right on the issue and reverse course. It means they don't wave us off with "oh STFU, you're bothering me!"

When a Democratic senator comes from a really conservative state, and their constituency demands they take a position, such as voting for the IWR, I give them a pass, because we live in a representative democracy. Their constituents have a right to demand of them. But when one of our Democratic senators is from a state that isn't conservative, like New York, then I do not forgive such sellouts.

We all knew in the summer of 2002 that the IWR was a scam, a political ploy, and a time bomb for war. We opposed it. It's sickening to hear Hillary and her surrogates, Chelsea included, continue this insulting lie that they could not have known.

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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
70. There is a real distinction between a YES vote on the IWR and attacking Iraq.
Many of you refuse to acknowledge it. I do not know whether it is because you are uneducated about the fact, or are being disingenuous, or, as Chelsea' points out... were clairvoyant.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. No... We Just See Through The Double-Talk !!!
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 05:18 PM by WillyT
As in Authorizing The Use Of Force means they're authorized to attack.

Or... Bin Laden Determined To Strike Within The United States means he might just attack us.

It really is all there right in front of one, if one chooses to look at it. And respond, responsibly.

:shrug:
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Authorizing the use of force is not ORDERING the use of force.
Saddam threw the weapons inspectors out. He wasn't going to let them back in, nor give them the access they needed to do the job without a threat of force.

After a bunch of ignored UN resolutions, what do you propose? Another one? Maybe, add "Oh, we are serious this time" to the end of it???

The IWR was successful in getting weapons inspectors back in. Got a unanimous security council vote to that effect...

After the IWR, when the weapons inspectors started complaining that many of the US claims were bunk, and the 2003 SOTU which was disproven, and Colin Powell's later debunked claims to the UN.. US public and world opinion was getting pretty strongly behind a no-invasion policy. Remeber "freedom fries" because the French wanted more time for the inspectors to do their jobs?

Bush went ahead and invaded.

Even then, I remember lots of people here on DU saying it was stupid and Saddam would use the remaining WMD to kill massive amounts of soldiers.

I think probably all of us DUers knew the case for war was bullshit... it was obvious well before the time of the invasion... but not a single one of us *knew* that there were no WMDs there. There was nothing wrong with putting inspectors in if there was a *CHANCE* he had WMD- he was actively involved in armed conflict with US troops.

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tokenlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. In Bush's hands?
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 05:17 PM by tokenlib
Authorization is a declaration of war. People with sanity, foresight, and good judgement did not trust Bush. Hillary did!

And if it was temporary insanity to vote for it--then an apology is in order.
But being a Clinton means never having to say you're sorry?
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. The American people trusted Bush.
Unfortunately.

People were given assurances that Bush would not invade unless Saddam refused to comply with the resolution. Not just the Senators, but the American people and foreign leaders. Those assurances were just as much bullshit as Bush's "proof" of WMD.

People confuse what was known at the time of the IWR with what was known at the time of the invasion.

A lot came to light in those 5-6 months.





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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #84
218. Hillary KNEW the neocon cabal from its attempt to coerce Bill to invade Iraq.
You know, the cabal that included Perle and Wolfowitz et al.

The very same Perle and Wolfowitz that Obama singled out in his 2002 speech denouncing the rush to war.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #80
191. I suppose you think we declared nuclear war on the Soviet Union and China,
because the president is authorized to release nukes against them.
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dcindian Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. what the hell right from the Neocon talking point memo!
"Saddam threw the weapons inspectors out. He wasn't going to let them back in, nor give them the access they needed to do the job without a threat of force."

That the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency was not permitted to make inspections might come as a bit of a surprise to Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the IAEA, who reported on March 17, 2003, that "late last night...I was advised by the United States government to pull out our inspectors from Baghdad." Inspectors had been in Iraq since November 2002. They remained until U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan ordered their evacuation on March 17, 2003, just three days before U.S. and British troops invaded Iraq.

"After a bunch of ignored UN resolutions, what do you propose? Another one? Maybe, add "Oh, we are serious this time" to the end of it???"

WTF he did not have any weapons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seems like he complied

"Bush went ahead and invaded."

with Hillary the hun Clinton's approval

"Even then, I remember lots of people here on DU saying it was stupid and Saddam would use the remaining WMD to kill massive amounts of soldiers."

The original post is not about those people

"I think probably all of us DUers knew the case for war was bullshit... it was obvious well before the time of the invasion... but not a single one of us *knew* that there were no WMDs there. There was nothing wrong with putting inspectors in if there was a *CHANCE* he had WMD- he was actively involved in armed conflict with US troops."

The original post is not about those people




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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. A little comprehension challenged, are we?
"That the U.N.'s International Atomic Energy Agency was not permitted to make inspections might come as a bit of a surprise to Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the IAEA, who reported on March 17, 2003, that "late last night...I was advised by the United States government to pull out our inspectors from Baghdad." Inspectors had been in Iraq since November 2002. They remained until U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan ordered their evacuation on March 17, 2003, just three days before U.S. and British troops invaded Iraq."


March 2003 was when we invaded. The weapons inspectors had been in Iraq since November 2002 *AS A RESULT OF THE IWR*.

"WTF he did not have any weapons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seems like he complied"

Then why were there still UN sanctions that were killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Again, very few, if any *knew* that Saddam had no WMD. Not even his top generals.

But it was the "Hillary the hun" comment that earns you an Ignore. Bye.



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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #87
103. The whole WMD thing was horses**t
and we knew it back then. I wasn't marching back then, but I was writing my representatives to urge them to vote against the war. It was pretty obvious that they knew he didn't have WMD's before they attacked.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. There are those key words again "before they attacked"...
The IWR was well before then.

Yes, it was evident it was bullshit when the weapons inspectors were saying they couldn't find WMD, and that every lead the US had given them was a wild goose chase, and Colin Powell before the UN, and Bush's 16 words being debunked... but all of that happened *after* the IWR, and at least in large part, *because* of the IWR.

Bush shouldn't have attacked. No argument there.

But I don't accept the argument that weapons inspectors shouldn't have been put in Iraq to check things out.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #87
277. This is called a logical fallacy and it is what Bush used to "wrong foot" Saddam
it is impossible to prove a negative. While I was quite sure that Saddam was not a material threat to the United States, there is no way I could "know" that he didn't have WMD. I seriously doubted that he had WMD, but there was no way that I - or anyone else - could *prove* he had no WMD. That is called proving a negative and is logically impossible.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. No.... Saddam DID NOT Throw The Weapons Inspectors Out !!!
The UN pulled them out because they knew, LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE DID, that Bush was going to attack, and was not going to wait for any UN Resolution to do it!

Weapons Inspectors Leave Iraq
Along With All Other U.N. Personnel, By Orders Of Kofi Annan

BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 18, 2003

<snip>

(AP) U.N. weapons inspectors climbed aboard a plane and pulled out of Iraq on Tuesday after President Bush issued a final ultimatum for Saddam Hussein to step down or face war.

A plane carrying the inspectors took off from Saddam International Airport at 10:25 a.m. It landed an hour and a half later in Laranca, Cyprus where the inspectors have a base.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan on Monday ordered all U.N. inspectors and support staff, humanitarian workers and U.N. observers along the Iraq-Kuwait border to evacuate Iraq after U.S. threats to launch war.

U.N. spokesman Hiro Ueki said 56 inspectors as well as support staff were on board Tuesday. Reporters at the airport saw about 80 people boarding buses for the plane, and officials earlier estimated the total number of U.N. evacuees at about 150.

After failing to secure U.N. authorization to use force to disarm Iraq, President Bush gave Saddam 48 hours to step down or face war in a speech Monday night.

Iraq rejected the Bush ultimatum, saying that a U.S. attack to force Saddam from power would be "a grave mistake. Saddam warned that American forces will find an Iraqi fighter ready to die for his country "behind every rock, tree and wall."

But Saddam made a last-minute bid to avert war, admitting that Iraq had once possessed weapons of mass destruction to defend itself from Iran and Israel - but insisting that it no longer has them.

"We are not weapons collectors," the official Iraqi News Agency quoted him as saying. "When Saddam Hussein says he has no weapons of mass destruction, he means what he says."

Some of the inspectors were wearing their blue U.N. caps and waved to reporters as they left the terminal Tuesday.

"It's unfortunate we have to leave now," Ueki said at the airport. "I think all the inspectors and support staff have done our best."

U.N. weapons inspectors arrived in Baghdad for the first time in four years on Nov. 27, 2002 and resumed inspections two days later. During four months of inspections, arms experts traveled the length of the country hunting for banned weapons of mass destruction.

President Bush's speech Monday set the countdown clock for war. "The tyrant will soon be gone," said Mr. Bush, either by Saddam's own choice to leave, or by force. Saddam and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours, said Mr. Bush.

<snip>

More: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/17/iraq/main544280.shtml

:shrug:




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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #88
113. Check back a little on why there weren't inspectors on the ground
before the IWR vote put them back in.

Saddam threw them out.



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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
105. She not only voted for the IWR, but she defended the war/occupation
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 06:47 PM by arewenotdemo
until very recently, when she finally realized that her position on it had to "evolve" for her presidential campaign to escape the tar pit of Iraq.

This, for instance, could have been spoken by John McCain:

February 20, 2005
HILLARY JOINS NEO-CON WAR IN IRAQ

Hillary Clinton, who hopes to become president, is on the Sunday morning talk shows saying that our troops might be in Iraq for some time to come. "We've been in Korea for 50 years," she said. "We are still in Okinawa," she told the TV cameras. Right wing Sen Lindsay Graham (R-SC), sitting next to Hillary during the interview on Faze
(sic) the Nation, chimed in that even though "Sen Clinton and I are on different ends of the political spectrum, we both agree that our troops will be here for a long time."

That is it. Pack up your bags peace movement and just go home. Hillary has made the pronouncement. She is in sync with George W. Bush, the neo-con crowd, Haliburton, Bechtel....she wants to be president and she knows that the road to the White House has to pass through the gates of the military industrial complex....and the oil corporations....and the globalization crowd that intends to create a "market economy" in Iraq (read privatization of everything there.) Hillary has totally sold out.



http://space4peace.blogspot.com/2005/02/hillary-joins-neo-con-war-in-iraq.html
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #105
114. She said there were troops in Korea for 50 years...
that doesn't mean she voted to put them there.

Clinton and Obama are very careful about advocating "combat" troop withdrawals. I think a lot of people are going to be sorely disappointed if either of them get in... but even at that, it is better than McCain getting in.

That's the problem with quagmires.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. That statement was clearly supporting an open-ended occupation of Iraq.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 07:25 PM by arewenotdemo
A position which she'll tell you has since "evolved".

But that position is one that is indistinguishable from John McCain's current position, which is that both he and the American public would tolerate a 1000-year occupation, so long as American casualties are sufficiently low.

Barack Obama has never advocated such a position, and that is one of the major reasons that he will be a far better challenger to McCain come November.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #120
128. It was an acknowledgment, I didn't read support into it.
Barak Obama is advocating a stike in Pakistan, a nuclear power.

You should get to know your candidate's positions, not the filtered hype flowing here.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #128
135. How does this read as anything BUT an open-ended commitment to the occupation?
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 08:03 PM by arewenotdemo
SCHIEFFER: "Well, what do you mean 'long time'? Do you mean years?"

Sen. CLINTON: "If I could just add to what Senator Graham said, because I think it's really important we underscore this. Senator McCain made the point earlier today, which I agree with, and that is, it's not so much a question of time when it comes to American military presence for the average American; I include myself in this. But it is a question of casualties. We don't want to see our young men and women dying and suffering these grievous injuries that so many of them have. We've been in South Korea for 50-plus years. We've been in Europe for 50-plus. We're still in Okinawa with respect to protection there coming out of World War II."

"You know, we have been in places for very long periods of time. And in recent history, we've made a commitment to Bosnia and Kosovo, and I think what is different is the feeling that we're on a track that is getting better and that we can see how the Iraqi government will begin to assume greater and greater responsibility. The elections were key to that. The training, equipment, equipping and motivating of the Iraqi security forces is key to that. But so is our understanding that if we were to artificially set a deadline of some sort, that would be like a green light to the terrorists, and we can't afford to do that."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Talk/talk-archive_Feb_05.html

The simple fact that she ever thought that American troops could remain in country in Iraq without being targeted 24/7 speaks to how delusional she really has been about the war and occupation.

As for Obama's position on Pakistan, he's talking about targeting Al Qaeda in Pakistan. You don't think we should go after Osama and Zawahiri?
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. Because she said *might be*. That isn't, "I want" or "I support"
in your first post of her comments. Even Obama is not advocating taking all of the troops out of Iraq.



I think it should be done only with the cooperation of the Pakistan government. If they (Pakistan government) refuses, then we need to look at options. To commit to a strike without their cooperation is arrogant and naive, imho.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #78
175. Saddam did NOT "throw the weapons inspectors out".
Why are you regurgitating Bush Crime Family talking points?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/16/iraq.un.letter/index.html

Iraq agrees to weapons inspections

September 17, 2002 Posted: 3:26 AM EDT (0726 GMT)

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- In a letter handed over to the United Nations on Monday, Iraq said it would allow the return of U.N. weapons inspectors "without conditions" to "remove any doubts Iraq still possesses weapons of mass destruction."

The White House was dismissive of Iraq's pledge: "We do not take what Saddam says at face value," said a Bush administration official, referring to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. Are you that ignorant of the situation?
Of course he did. November 13, 1997. Under the threat of military action, they returned but were not granted access to four key sites, which we ended up bombing in 1998.

That was during the Clinton administration, btw.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #70
160. Baloney.
The IWR gave madman Bush a loaded gun that every swingin' richard on this planet knew he was going to use.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
243. BULLSHIT!!
Robert Byrd, gave a moving speech warning his colleagues against ceding their constitutional power to the administration. He warned about the administration's hubris, the lack of evidence for war, the lack of need for such a resolution, the uncanny time of the resolution (just before the 2002 midterm elections), the rush to war with all of it's consequences AND make no mistake about it: that voting for the resolution was voting for war!

They all knew. We expected the repukes to vote with Bush but interestingly, on the Dem side, mainly those with POTUS ambitions did so. They went along to get ahead politically.

John Edwards apology was too little to late. There are no do-overs in war, no reincarnation of the dead, no restoration of the order and society that was peacefully minding its own business.

His apology for his IWR was also and notably not proceeded by pronouncements against going to war between the vote in October 2002 and 'Shock and Awe' in March 20, 2003. And for a champion of the little guy, why did he vote -- again with Bush -- for the Bankruptcy Bill and the Patriot Act. When he had power he got it all wrong! As did Hillary and other Dems.

Fool me once...

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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #70
271. I call bullshit. I was in the Marines when it passed
Every single one of us knew that if it passed we were shipping out within six months.

Every.
Single.
One.
Of.
Us.

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
74. i guess she missed the millions across the planet
that went into the streets to say no war...



chelsea go back to your six figure job and stay away from politics
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
89. Them's some big-assed focus groups there
(Bush called the anti-war protesters "focus groups" in response to a question about them before the war.)
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Foc US?! No, Foc U, Mister Bush!!
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #89
305. .
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
95. And what did Obama do?
He supported the war and voted to keep funding it.

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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
244. can't defend team hillary
so paint Obama as a war supporter.

His speech against IWR at an anti-war rally in 2002 was clairvoyant. Everything he said then has come to pass...

He has supported the troops, not the war. Your argument is so fucking lame
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
96. K&R
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
99. Exactly
There was public information out there that Iraq did not have WMD's, including the chief weapons inspector, Ambassador Wilson, and others. It was quite obvious to me that President Bush at the time wanted to invade Iraq, and was just trying to come up with a justification. It was also clear that the 9-11 bombers were Saudis, and that the mastermind was a Saudi hiding in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Hillary Clinton, who should have had even more information than the general public, did not practice due diligence. In typical Clintonian fashion, she did her due diligence by checking the polls.

Voting against the use of force resolution did not require clairvoyance - it only required political courage and more concern for the country than for her own career. Senator Clinton had neither of these.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
100. Great answer, Chelsea. Slap that bitch.
What a sarcastic question from that little bitch in the audience. Chelsea should have been as rude as the little bitch that asked the question.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. It's sexist to call Hillary a b*tch, but it isn't sexist to call one of her detractors one? N/T
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. WTF are you talking about?
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 07:22 PM by Gman
Rudeness deserves rudeness right back.
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ekwhite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #106
196. I beg to differ
Maybe I'm old fashioned and out of touch, but I believe that rudeness on the other person's part doesn't justify rudeness on ours. Besides which, all this backbiting is making the Republicans rub their hands with glee.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #196
295. Sorry, but I'm sick and tired of it as should everyone else
including the Clintons. The Clintons biggest problem is trying to be too nice to these complete assholes. If you don't reply with the same kind of rudeness as these assholes, they won't stop because they're oblivious assholes. They will stop if you get in your face which is what I'm going to do at every single opportunity.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #100
245. that's right take the low road
and call the questioner a bitch for challenging the princess.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #245
296. the questioner IS a bitch
why is that a problem pointing that out? That bitch had no problem being rude to Chelsea, so she deserves to be slapped right back down by just as rude back.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
102. I know we were ALL Clairvoyant!!
chelsea musta missed us all in New York on Feb 15, 2003..

http://www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/newyork03.html




Brilliant seafan, thank you from all of us who were just little Ensteins!

http://www.punchdown.org/rvb/F15/

Ooooops..here's France!



And, London Calling ya, chelsea.
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stratomagi Donating Member (811 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
107. Website as viral gimmick?
I read about that quote earlier this morning and was so infuriated by her arrogance. To me its exemplary of what Hillary and the people around her are and would most likely bring as a president, more pretentiousness more arrogance.

Anyway I'm echoing what everybody else has already said. I was thinking maybe it would be a good idea to make a web site similar to www.sorryeverybody.com which appeared after Kerry lost in 04. The site could have pictures of people saying, "Not Psychic Chelsea, but I still new Iraq was a mistake." Or something along those lines. It would in my view be a very effective anti-advertisement.

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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
111. Chelsea is just like her Mom...
She mistakes sound judgment and common sense for clairvoyance.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
115. Tens of millions marched on the Streets opposing the Iraq war before it started.
they weren't clairvoyant, they simply had brains, and used them.
Hillary is smart. but she did not think ahead. and it cost the Iraqi nation a million lives.
and more personal to Hillary, it cost her any chance of becoming President. It is my hope that anyone who voted for that insane piece of legislation is out of politics before too long.

For such people, they should be relegated to asking us if we want Fries with our orders.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
119. Clairvoyance? No, simple digestion of the facts and common decency, Chelsea
something missing in the Clinton household
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MessiahRp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
122. Good to know Chelsea has the Clinton "Arrogance" trait.
I am so sick of the fucking stupid comment that "Nobody knew he didn't have WMDs" and creating this false premise that only some psychic knew any better. The largest protests in the history of the world happened in February 2002. Bush called them a "focus group". FOX openly mocked them. CNN and MSNBC basically ignored them, as apparently did the pro-war Congressmen who would rather conveniently erase their existance rather than admit how they were completely, unequivocably wrong in the face of tens of millions of people telling them such.

I call bullshit.

I also call bullshit that she's still wrong by not apologizing for the vote that killed millions of Iraqis, voting for a similar war-like resolution on Iran, hiding like a coward from stopping the FISA bill from going through....

She's still wrong on everything. And she's wrong for America.

Rp
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
124. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #124
152. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
127. Here's a raging K&R.
:thumbsup:
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Tactical Progressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
129. Hillary Clinton made the correct vote on the IWR
And it's not any DLC Democrat that created this war.

It was progressives in 2000 who snarled at Al Gore as a 'Republicrat', just like they do at Hillary today.
Those people are the cause of all the carnage in Iraq, even moreso than Bush himself.

And no, those people have no remorse.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #129
140. Care to back up your horrible accusation with some facts?
:puke:
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #140
167. I am feeling ill, too!
:puke:
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #129
246. WTF
get some intervention for your Kool-Aid addiction.
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #129
284. they cheated, Gore lost, my fault theres a war. Am I understanding you correctly.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
136. Sickening. It didn't take mystical powers to realize that SH had nothing to do with 9/11.
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stillrockin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
137. Another disingenuous Clinton. Surprise, surprise.
:eyes:
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
139. So sad that the Clintons have come to this
Then again, they were never saints...but it still is painful to see them sinking so low, so publicly.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
141. How insulting!
That remark about "clairvoyance" is insulting to all of us who opposed the war from the beginning. We had good reasons to oppose the war, that had nothing to do with clairvoyance.

If we ordinary citizens could see that it was a mistake, how could a senator fail to see that?
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #141
148. That has been my argument all along...how come I am smarter
than congress.
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redacted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
143. What a smartass remark from Chelsea Clinton!
Thought she was better than that. Guess not.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
144. K and R
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
146. AaAand there goes my respect for the last Clinton - all of which I respected before the campaign. nt
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
147. You didn't have to be Nostrodamas
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 08:49 PM by riverwalker
to KNOW, yes, KNOW there were no WMD's. The facts were out there. People like Scott Ritter and others were voices crying (screaming!) in the wilderness. How many peace activists out there spent hours and hours pouring over data, yet Hillary couldn't read a 90 page report to prepare for a vote where lives hung in the balance. How many of us in 2002 would believe Bush even if he had said the sky was blue?
In these last few weeks I am getting a whole different insight
into the entire Clinton family, and it's not pleasant.:puke:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
153. Kickity-kick. Being clairvoyant, I'm predicting about a hundred or more rec's!
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
154. Gee, Maybe Chelsea Could Fight In Iraq
Help the men and women who are laying down life and limb so that she can work in a hedge fund.

(Blows my mind.)
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #154
170. No the maiming for life and dying young
Is only for the poor, and minorities. Chelsea is neither of those.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
155. This is a sorry excuse for a thread.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
156. Big fat f-ing lie. This is Bush-Cheney's War, prolonged by the GOP.
When you dudes give 80 plus recs to the Big Lie that will enable to John McCain to WIN this fall, namely "It isn't a Republican War or a Democratic War, it is an American War that the majority of the American people wanted " you put the nails in your own parties coffin!

For shame!

This is exactly what I meant when I warned back in November of attempts to arrange us into a circular firing squad.

Get a grip on political reality!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
161. another K&R
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
165. I can find a left wing group that protested every war. Here are Catholic Workers against WWII
http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/ddbiographytext.cfm?Number=3

Resistance to Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker Movement intensified as the nation went to war. For Dorothy it was a time of deepening, a necessary time of consolidation of her Catholic faith and of the ideas that fueled the Catholic Worker Movement. She was one of the few Catholic voices opposing World War II, as she had all previous wars, and not all those in the movement agreed with Dorothy's total pacifism. Many houses closed, some because the men who ran them were drafted. The bread lines shortened because of full employment for the war effort.


Does that mean that the people who enlisted and the politicians who funded it and FDR were war criminals for stopping the Nazis, because some people who will not ever believe in war under any circumstances went out and protested war?

There will always be people picketing any war in the U.S. Sometimes it will turn out that they are right.

Now, Obama supporters are using this issue for short term gain---and it will cost big time in the general.

Are the people using this even Obama supporters? How do we know that they are not McCain supporters laying the ground work for "It's really a Democratic war." Remember Karl Rove claims that it was Senate Dems who rushed the vote.

Get a clue. This is supposed to be Democratic Underground, not Shoot the Democrats in the Foot Underground.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. Iraq (and Iran) are threats.
Using violence (and creating enemies) is one way to deal with these threats. This way is strong, and wrong.

Fear not, this place will be silent once HRC gets the nomination.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #166
248. I'll never be silent
I pray to God that she doesn't get the nomination

She and McCain... two low roads to the highest office.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #248
302. peace
low stress
:hi:
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #165
181. There were *millions* of people protesting the Iraq war.
You would had to have been living under a rock to be unaware that it was widely opposed, and largely for reasons that have since turned out to be well-founded.

You didn't have to be clairvoyant to see it was going to turn out like it has, you just had to have a basic knowledge of history and current affairs. Clinton' votin for it was a dreadful mistake an indicates (to me) a serious lack of political backbone. Her whole defense is based on n argument that goes like 'I had special super-secret information - you people aren't fit to pass judgment'.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
169. Anyone with a pulse and consciousness knew the IWR was wrong
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. Which should scare anyone away from Hillary clinton
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
172. What a glib, petulant response.
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Sam Ervin jret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-16-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
174. Sen. Clinton was lied to just like the rest of us. Four months later Colin Powell
was holding up anthrax and putting his reputation on the line.

Don't get me wrong. I was in that crowd in the fancy picture you put up. But the implication that "due diligence" was what kept the senator from voting the way i and you wanted her to is misleading.

But apparently that is the point.

We have two excellent candidates to choose from this election cycle. The republicans will be looking for any way took win, cheat, steal, or hijack this election. Misleading and inflammatory posts, advertisements and speeches on either side only gives the Republicans more video and/or material to use in the own unique way.

let's stick to issues, how we can deliver DEMOCRACY back to the people and practice with due diligence the Ideals our country promised in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #174
177. I called bullshit the moment Condi told the world...
that a mushroom cloud could hit the U.S. in 45 fucking minutes. What baffles me is that most Americans did not (they didn't because they wanted revenge for 9/11). Yep, we all were lied to, but some of us had enough smarts/common sense/clairvoyance/whatever to see through the lies. I don't want a Prez who uses "I was lied to" as an excuse.

Deliver DEMOCRACY back to the people? Yeah, good luck with that...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #174
183. If she was lied to, why did she give Bush the authority for war again with Kyl-Lieberman?
Hillary knew Bush was lying about WMD, and she made a cold calculation that the war would be over in a couple of weeks and that no one would care that Bush lied.

Hillary is a neolib, the flip side of the neocon coin.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #174
184. We were all lied to, but not all of us fell for it.
This is a perfectly legitimate issue. Senator Clinton made exactly the wrong call on the biggest international issue of this century so far. We've now been involved in Iraq for longer than it took to fight WW2, to far less effect. Meanwhile, our influence in Afghanistan remains half-assed and we've never managed to lay hands on Osama bin Laden.

If Hillary Clinton felt so dreadfully deceived and misused, she had a great chance to run for the nomination in 2004 and rake George W Bush over the coals for lying to the nation. Some fighter!
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Sam Ervin jret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #184
205. Not all of us were in the senate at the time either.
And it is MUCH easier to play at home. I'm a regular genius at Jeopardy when I'm sitting at home. And congrats on not falling for the line of reasoning or lack there of in regards to the Iraq war. But this thread is without a doubt a political pundit thread. A very thick political thread trying to get through the opening of a very small needle.

The issue may be legit. the argument that Obama was in the same position as Hillary during the debate and "would" have made the same call is false and misleading. Their votes have been similar on funding this war since Obama became a senator.

"Some fighter"? What is with that?

I've SAID IT BEFORE ON OTHER THREADS AND I SAY IT AGAIN

Please keep the personalities of the candidates out of the debate. Your comment on the legitimacy of this issue is negated by the personal rant against one of our two excellent candidates.

The Republican Machine will, fight, cheat, claw and cut to win this election. We need not "legitimize" the false and personal attacks they use on us by using them on each other.

the arguments you make about Afghanistan and Osama are better asked of the man who wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years. As for Hillary running in 2004, would that have made sense after such a short time in the senate? Some could ask? You probably would have back then.
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #205
273. Maybe Hillary should have listened to the home audience
most of her CONSTITUENTS were against the war and not for poor reasons.
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ErnestoG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #174
202. Really? Then why didn't 126 other Democrats fall for it?
You're working yourself into a corner.
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sueh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
178. Seafan, you've nailed it. Here's a K n R.
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
180. Gee, I must be clairvoyant too.
:sarcasm:

K&R.

Shame on the Clintons for using Chelsea like this.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
185. Part of me feels sorry for Chelsea.
I suspect that when she is an older woman -- say 45 or 50 -- she will look back on these times with the perspective that only age and experience in living provides, and she may recognize that her opinions NOW, just like her flippant replies to hard questions that deserve more thoughtful responses, were shaped by her parents and were not her own.

Maybe that won't happen, though. Perhaps she has been too immersed since her birth in the world of politics (that is mostly filled with equivocating and dodging rather than facing hard truths and speaking them aloud) to ever really see world events and the behavior of her parents clearly and objectively.

But many of us "regular folks" have had to come to grips as we got older with the fact that our parents did us no favors and often merely served their own interests in how they raised us. I wouldn't be shocked if Chelsea has to do the same someday long in the future.

I doubt she can see that regrettable truth now. But as some here have said, if she willingly puts herself out there and tries to persuade citizens to vote for her mother to become president of the United States, she MUST be prepared to respond to hard questions that deserve honest answers -- not make snarky comments about "clairvoyance."

The OP certainly had it right here:

So, Ms. Chelsea Clinton, with all due respect, "clairvoyance" had nothing to do with it.

Due diligence did.


And precious few of our leaders practiced it, when so many lives depended on it.



I remember when the Senators had that opportunity to take a short walk over to read the full N.I.E., and how few of them actually did it. I recall thinking at the time that we were in very deep sh*t indeed.

ALL our legislators vote themselves tidy raises in salary whenever they get the opportunity (not to mention the many other ways they use their positions to get rich), yet they can't be bothered to even read the legislation they vote on and important information related to it. Really, now, how crazy and irresponsible is that? It's their JOB!

And more than that, it's their DUTY!


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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
186. Yep, HRC's a goddamned loser for the IWR vote.
Unfortunately, voting to fund everything related to that vote (Obama, I'm talking to you) is synonymous with that failure. We have two knuckleheads fronting our party right now. Yippee.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
189. I don't like her answer, but what can she realistically say?
If you want her to say, "Yes, my mother showed horrible judgement. Vote Obama," that's not gonna happen.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
190. that was rather a very SNIPPY remark from Ms. Clinton
especially when so many people were incredibly vociferously against the invasion of Iraq - AND - people like Sen. Graham of Florida (who woulda made a great president) who read the entire NIE voiced major concern about the reasons for going to war.


Well, what do we expect, she's a young lady defending her Momma. Point is, this is probably the strongest reason I don't support Mrs. Clinton for president. She's 'warmonger-lite', and that's not cool.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
192. How unfortunate. Chelsea's reduced to using her parents' talking points.
I'm sure she doesn't really think this, and that her parents - or their advisers - coached her to say this.

Whoever thought this was a good idea is only costing Hillary votes in the process.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #192
206. silly--WHY do you ASSume all are single issue voters? Iraq is NO longer at the top
of the scale for problems
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #206
250. because all those $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
spent in Iraq affect kitchen table issues here, indeed affect our entire economy.

Proposals and policies mean squat when the treasury is being consumed by a war that should never have been authorized or waged!
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
195. K & R! n/t
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
207. "Was it worth it?"
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 01:41 AM by Baby Snooks
Maybe someone should ask her if her mother thought it was "worth it" the way Leslie Stahl asked Madeline Albright. Maybe everyone who could ask it is afraid of hearing the same answer again.

Bill Clinton wasn't concerned about the people of Iraq when he continued the policies of George HW Bush. Hillary wasn't concerned about the people of Iraq when she continued those same policies by voting to support the war of George W Bush. Even if she had read the report she probably would have supported the war. It was, she thought, politically advantageous to do so. Hillary Clinton is nothing but political. As is Bill Clinton. And neither is political in terms of what serves the American people. Only what serves them.

How many Iraqis have died since the first war of George HW Bush? How many more will die before someone stops the second war of George W Bush?

Hopefully someone will ask Chelsea if she thinks her mother, and her father, thinks it was worth it. The way Madeline Albright thought it was. Politics is not supposed to be about personality although of course in the end it is. There is something about Chelsea Clinton that just reflects the attitude, and the disconnect, of her parents.

Someone needs to explain to her that when her mother admits she did not read the report, it is nothing but hypocrisy to claim as she has that had she known what she knows now, her vote would have been different.

Maybe if she had read the report her vote might have been different. But then it probably wouldn't have been. The people who didn't read the report didn't want to read the report. They had already decided to do whatever was politically advantageous.

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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
212. The fault lies with the lying, fucking NEOCONS....nt
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #212
251. no, it's not that simple
those who went along with the neocons are equally culpable and have blood on their hands.

Aiding and abetting a crime is still CRIMINAL!
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bagrman Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #251
285. different sides of the same coin, who ever is pulling the strings on one
side is also pulling the purse strings on the other side also.
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Chipster Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
219. From the Horse's Mouth
From the Horse's Mouth

And it's also not as if she was gung-ho for the vote, though she made it. Consider some excerpts from her 2002 floor speech:
If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option....

I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition....

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it....

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.
And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world....
And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.


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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #219
255. yes, but words are cheap
remember. If not, HRC just said so this week.

Ya can't have it both ways.

And in the case of IWR, her vote did all the talking! The speechifying was just to cover her ass with her constituents who were opposed to it THEN.

Besides that, however, where was she in 2003 as Herr Leader moved toward Shock and Awe?

HRC only spoke out against the war when public opinion and her stance were at odds and ergo a potential impediment to her POTUS bid. When she FINALLY did speak out, she said the war had been managed wrong, not that IT WAS WRONG from the start!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
220. I like pie.
That is all.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
222. Smart-ass responses to questioners are out of order, whoever makes them. Chelsea showed a thin skin.
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 06:23 AM by WinkyDink
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
223. Princess Chelsea
Her mother's daughter. Scary.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #223
287. Agreed. I know Chelsea has been in the news alot and defended for
for David Schuster's remark about her. I think Chelsea is very bright, well educated and is perfectly capable of sorting out the political scene. If she did not agree with her parents' campaign she could plead she's very busy doing important work, or 'something'. I also believe that she has, because of Schuster's remark, newscasters wary of criticizing her and now she can easily get away with snarky remarks most likely issues her parents would like to say. Presently, they have a "safe" advocate/surrogate.
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
224. It was a test of judgment.
And *they* failed...

End of story.
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Kindigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
227. well said
:thumbsup:
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
228. K&R
This is exactly why I cannot vote for her.

I held my nose and voted for Kerry-Edwards in 2004 AFTER meeting them both here at a function in SC during the summer of 2002 and begging each not to go along with Bush on Iraq. They were tag-teaming the state in the lead up to their individual presidential bids at the same time that the administration was starting to beat the war dreams against Iraq.

I'll never forget how Kerry looked at me like some sort of dumb hick to whom he had to explain world affairs and said "Saddam is very dangerous" but I cut him off by saying "Iraq did not attack us and Bush is a liar."

Of course, we know the rest. I've had it with those, even with a 'D' beside their name, who put personal ambition above political courage and doing what is morally right.

Iraq was never an imminent threat and those who not only bought that crap at the time but also concurred and voted 'aye' have blood on their hands. 23 Senators and a host of House members got it right. Funny, no tragic, how those with presidential designs got it all wrong.

Leaderhip... I think not.



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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
235. Way to go, Chelsea!
There's nothing more satisfying than making an ignorant O-Bot choke on his own idiot rhetoric. She's fit right in here at the DU.
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rosetta627 Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
238. That student is my hero
And this is a great post seafan.
Good use of photos...
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Maryland Liberal Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
247. I guess Elenor Roosevelt was on Vacation when Hillary voted
Not a smart move to bring up the Occult Chelsea = Go Obama Go!
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
254. Two points
1. Chelsea's snippy answer was impolite. Much like the impolite way her mother treated Arkansans when she was First Lady in Arkansas. This was personal to me, and the reason I don't like her (note I didn't say hate).

2. Yes, there were clairvoyant people who knew what would happen. They were among the 30 odd folks who demonstrated for peace in the winter of early 2003 in Jasper AR.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
258. "Squawk! I'm A Parrot!" "Squawk! IWR IWR" "Squawk! She Voted She Voted IWR IWR" "Squawk"
Chelsea was right, and Hillary has explained this situation to death already a million times. Some refuse to absorb the explanation, because they'd rather be ignorant assholes than actually use some level of objectivity and understanding.

I commend Chelsea here for standing up to the ignorant jackass overdramatic bully in the crowd. Good for her!
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golddigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #258
276. I see you didn't get the memo. Clinton=Judas, Obama=Jesus!
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #258
279. you still sound like an idiot when you do this.
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golddigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #279
280. Funny, I was just going to say the same thing about the Obama supporters.
:evilgrin:
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #280
299. Be wary that you don't inadvertantly satirize yourself.
;)
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #279
281. You Have My Humble Apologies For Giving You The Wrong Impression;
that somehow your opinion means the slightest thing to me. :hi:
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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #281
298. I wasn't seeking your approval
just making a humble observation.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
262. I can't believe that people actually think Clinton caused the war.
I can't believe that people actually give Obama a free pass.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
264. Oh please
go back in time

IWR was voted on as a scare tactic thrown up at the last minute before the 02 elections

it didn't authorize * to do what he did and they were all lied to by him and others

Obama wasn't even a Senator so we have NO IDEA how he would have voted

he's kept the soldiers in MRE's and ammo since they've been there with no real outspoken effort to get us out of there that I can see.

Hope?

I see little in either candidate myself

I want Edwards or Gore back
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
265. Bookmarked and Recommended. Thank you.
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
268. Miss Cleo Retired
Princess Chelsea can get her own 900 number.
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cseper Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
270. No, Chelsea. Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it.
To hear you whiners tell the tale, if Hillary would just say, "It's all my fault,"
then 4,000 dead soldiers would magically return alive to their families but that
Hillary is so stubborn that she just won't give that greatest gift to those 4,000 families.

We all know that's crap, so why do you keep harping on it?
Could it be because --- that's all you have?

You want Hillary to go back in time and change her vote, which is kinda stupid.

Remember, It was OK for Kerry to have made that mistake - we all gave him a pass in 2004, but a Clinton? Never!

They don't get the same pass that Kerry got - why?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #270
294. because she continues to try and justify it when virtually everyone
in America recognizes that it was a mistake. It's not a question of saying your sorry its a question of having a clear understanding of the mistakes that you have made. It reminds people that talking to the Clintons is always a question of parsing, it insults our intelligence, it is always a question of what the meaning of is is. It is a pattern.

All she had to do is simply say;

It was a mistake. Those of us who voted for the resolution believed the president would only go to war as a last resort. If we

thought that he would have only gone through the motions in trying to prevent a war none of us would have voted for it.


It also doesn't help that she voted for the hostile resolution on Iran only to have the Intelligence community come out afterwards and say that the premise of Iran rushing towards nuclear arms is untrue.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
274. One more
:kick: and rec
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
282. This thread is forcing me to remember a time that I was willing to forgive and forget
A time when I was SO ANGRY with our Dem senators that I felt that they deserved a prison cell right alongside Bush&Co. Somehow over the past year I had become numb to the anger and disappointment, but posts like this make it fresh again. No end in sight to this war, which was tantamount to genocide. :-(
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
286. Kick, just for good measure
:kick:
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
288. Bob Graham: "Frankly, my friends-- to use a blunt term -- blood is going to be on your hands."
This man knew. But very few listened.

And even fewer read for themselves, the evidence in the 90-page National Intelligence Estimate of 2002.



Running Scared

By Michael Grunwald
Sunday, May 4, 2003; Page W08


There were no breathless murmurs of anticipation. A hush did not fall upon the Senate chamber. The senators kept chatting and gripping each other's arms in the way that senators do. Nobody really seemed to notice when the senior senator from Florida, a chubby-cheeked 65-year-old Democrat named Bob Graham, rose last October 9 to add his voice to the debate about the war in Iraq.

Everybody knew that Graham was a sober, conscientious, unfailingly courteous grandfather who couldn't light up a room with a barrel of Iraqi crude and a Zippo. The Almanac of American Politics had described him as "careful, methodical, thorough, hardworking, reliable" -- it might as well have added "zzzzzzz." He was known as one of those mild-mannered moderates who don't rock boats or make enemies or generate buzz, who respect the dignity of their august institution and the opinions of their distinguished colleagues.
"I appreciate the thoughtful remarks of the senator from Connecticut and the senator from Arizona," Graham began. He wore a plain gray suit and one of his trademark Florida ties, with Mrs. Grundyish glasses perched at the end of his nose. The Florida reporters in the gallery braced for a typical Bob Graham speech: high-minded, long-winded and entirely devoid of quotable sound bites.

And then he started yelling about terror and danger and death.

"We are not talking about a threat 90 days from now!" Graham roared. "We are not talking about a threat that may come a year from now if nuclear material is made available!" His cherubic face turned purple. He gesticulated like a manic third-base coach, jabbing his fingers, pumping his fists, sweeping his hands across the lectern. "I am talking about a threat that could happen THIS AFTERNOON!" ..... But now, suddenly, Graham was preaching like a prophet of doom, hectoring his colleagues that Americans were dangerously vulnerable to terrorist attacks, that militant groups like Hezbollah could be even deadlier than al Qaeda or Saddam Hussein, that war in Iraq would only increase the threat at home. And then he went further: "If you believe that the American people are not going to be at additional threat, then, frankly, my friends -- to use a blunt term -- blood is going to be on your hands."

Bob Graham said the Senate would have blood on its hands?

"I was like, Whoa! No way Uncle Bob said that!" marvels William E. Graham, the senator's nephew and the CEO of the Graham Companies, the family's real estate firm. Paul Anderson, the senator's communications director, had helped prepare Graham's floor remarks, and he knew he hadn't written anything about blood on anyone's hands. "I was completely speechless," Anderson says. Several former Graham aides frantically e-mailed one another transcripts, with "Wow" in the subject line. "We were all asking each other: Is this our Bob Graham?" says Margaret Kempel, who used to run Graham's South Florida office. "He's never been a freakout guy."

Suddenly, Bob Graham has become a freakout guy. In fact, assuming he continues to recover from January surgery to replace a valve in his heart, he plans to run for president as a kind of freakout candidate, a red-alert politician for a freakout nation. He rails about "hardened assassins" living among us, plotting attacks on American soil.
He fumes about dramatic intelligence failures, massive security gaps, "modern Armageddon." He frets about seaports and airports, nuclear plants and chemical plants. "It would be relatively easy," he says, "for a terrorist to poison a water utility and kill thousands of people." He hasn't screamed much since the blood-on-your-hands speech -- and he's been particularly measured since his own brush with mortality -- but he now peppers his methodical geekspeak with words like "outrageous" and "scandalous" and "inexcusable." As this article went to press, Hussein's fall had not provoked any new attacks in America, but Graham still insists that the risk to Americans from terrorism is as high as ever. "The gun," he warns, "is still loaded."

.....




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BearSquirrel2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
289. Bin Laden determined to strike in US ....

It seems to me that Hillary and GW Bush have committed the same crime. Bush didn't read his briefings and he is widely criticized for it. How can we expect to criticize Republicans for being sloppy when our candidate for president is equally sloppy.

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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
291. My dear Chelsea,
Note the date:

Published on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 by Common Dreams
A Prayer for America
by US Rep Dennis Kucinich

The following speech was given on February 17, 2002 in Los Angeles, California at an event sponsored by the Southern California Americans for Democratic Action.

I offer these brief remarks today as a prayer for our country, with love of democracy, as a celebration of our country. With love for our country. With hope for our country. With a belief that the light of freedom cannot be extinguished as long as it is inside of us. With a belief that freedom rings resoundingly in a democracy each time we speak freely. With the understanding that freedom stirs the human heart and fear stills it. With the belief that a free people cannot walk in fear and faith at the same time.

With the understanding that there is a deeper truth expressed in the unity of the United States. That implicit in the union of our country is the union of all people. That all people are essentially one. That the world is interconnected not only on the material level of economics, trade, communication, and transportation, but innerconnected through human consciousness, through the human heart, through the heart of the world, through the simply expressed impulse and yearning to be and to breathe free.

I offer this prayer for America.

Let us pray that our nation will remember that the unfolding of the promise of democracy in our nation paralleled the striving for civil rights. That is why we must challenge the rationale of the Patriot Act. We must ask why should America put aside guarantees of constitutional justice?

How can we justify in effect canceling the First Amendment and the right of free speech, the right to peaceably assemble?

How can we justify in effect canceling the Fourth Amendment, probable cause, the prohibitions against unreasonable search and seizure?

How can we justify in effect canceling the Fifth Amendment, nullifying due process, and allowing for indefinite incarceration without a trial?

How can we justify in effect canceling the Sixth Amendment, the right to prompt and public trial?

How can we justify in effect canceling the Eighth Amendment which protects against cruel and unusual punishment?

We cannot justify widespread wiretaps and internet surveillance without judicial supervision, let alone with it.

We cannot justify secret searches without a warrant.

We cannot justify giving the Attorney General the ability to designate domestic terror groups.

We cannot justify giving the FBI total access to any type of data which may exist in any system anywhere such as medical records and financial records.

We cannot justify giving the CIA the ability to target people in this country for intelligence surveillance.

We cannot justify a government which takes from the people our right to privacy and then assumes for its own operations a right to total secrecy.

The Attorney General recently covered up a statue of Lady Justice showing her bosom as if to underscore there is no danger of justice exposing herself at this time, before this administration.

Let us pray that our nation's leaders will not be overcome with fear. Because today there is great fear in our great Capitol. And this must be understood before we can ask about the shortcomings of Congress in the current environment.

The great fear began when we had to evacuate the Capitol on September 11.

It continued when we had to leave the Capitol again when a bomb scare occurred as members were pressing the CIA during a secret briefing.

It continued when we abandoned Washington when anthrax, possibly from a government lab, arrived in the mail.

It continued when the Attorney General declared a nationwide terror alert and then the Administration brought the destructive Patriot Bill to the floor of the House.

It continued in the release of the bin Laden tapes at the same time the President was announcing the withdrawal from the ABM treaty.

It remains present in the cordoning off of the Capitol.

It is present in the camouflaged armed national guardsmen who greet members of Congress each day we enter the Capitol campus.

It is present in the labyrinth of concrete barriers through which we must pass each time we go to vote.

The trappings of a state of siege trap us in a state of fear, ill-equipped to deal with the Patriot Games, the Mind Games, the War Games of an unelected President and his unelected Vice President.

Let us pray that our country will stop this war. "To promote the common defense" is one of the formational principles of America.

Our Congress gave the President the ability to respond to the tragedy of September 11. We licensed a response to those who helped bring the terror of September 11th. But we the people and our elected representatives must reserve the right to measure the response, to proportion the response, to challenge the response, and to correct the response.

Because we did not authorize the invasion of Iraq.

We did not authorize the invasion of Iran.

We did not authorize the invasion of North Korea.

We did not authorize the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan.

We did not authorize permanent detainees in Guantanamo Bay.

We did not authorize the withdrawal from the Geneva Convention.

We did not authorize military tribunals suspending due process and habeas corpus.

We did not authorize assassination squads.

We did not authorize the resurrection of COINTELPRO.

We did not authorize the repeal of the Bill of Rights.

We did not authorize the revocation of the Constitution.

We did not authorize national identity cards.

We did not authorize the eye of Big Brother to peer from cameras throughout our cities.

We did not authorize an eye for an eye.

Nor did we ask that the blood of innocent people, who perished on September 11, be avenged with the blood of innocent villagers in Afghanistan.

We did not authorize the administration to wage war anytime, anywhere,anyhow it pleases.

We did not authorize war without end.

We did not authorize a permanent war economy.

Yet we are upon the threshold of a permanent war economy. The President has requested a $45.6 billion increase in military spending. All defense-related programs will cost close to $400 billion.

Consider that the Department of Defense has never passed an independent audit.

Consider that the Inspector General has notified Congress that the Pentagon cannot properly account for $1.2 trillion in transactions.

Consider that in recent years the Dept. of Defense could not match $22 billion worth of expenditures to the items it purchased, wrote off, as lost, billions of dollars worth of in-transit inventory and stored nearly $30 billion worth of spare parts it did not need.

Yet the defense budget grows with more money for weapons systems to fight a cold war which ended, weapon systems in search of new enemies to create new wars. This has nothing to do with fighting terror.

This has everything to do with fueling a military industrial machine with the treasure of our nation, risking the future of our nation, risking democracy itself with the militarization of thought which follows the militarization of the budget.

Let us pray for our children. Our children deserve a world without end. Not a war without end. Our children deserve a world free of the terror of hunger, free of the terror of poor health care, free of the terror of homelessness, free of the terror of ignorance, free of the terror of hopelessness, free of the terror of policies which are committed to a world view which is not appropriate for the survival of a free people, not appropriate for the survival of democratic values, not appropriate for the survival of our nation, and not appropriate for the survival of the world.

Let us pray that we have the courage and the will as a people and as a nation to shore ourselves up, to reclaim from the ruins of September 11th our democratic traditions.

Let us declare our love for democracy. Let us declare our intent for peace.

Let us work to make nonviolence an organizing principle in our own society.

Let us recommit ourselves to the slow and painstaking work of statecraft, which sees peace, not war as being inevitable.

Let us work for a world where someday war becomes archaic.

That is the vision which the proposal to create a Department of Peace envisions. Forty-three members of Congress are now cosponsoring the legislation.

Let us work for a world where nuclear disarmament is an imperative. That is why we must begin by insisting on the commitments of the ABM treaty. That is why we must be steadfast for nonproliferation.

Let us work for a world where America can lead the day in banning weapons of mass destruction not only from our land and sea and sky but from outer space itself. That is the vision of HR 3616: A universe free of fear. Where we can look up at God's creation in the stars and imagine infinite wisdom, infinite peace, infinite possibilities, not infinite war, because we are taught that the kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven.

Let us pray that we have the courage to replace the images of death which haunt us, the layers of images of September 11th, faded into images of patriotism, spliced into images of military mobilization, jump-cut into images of our secular celebrations of the World Series, New Year's Eve, the Superbowl, the Olympics, the strobic flashes which touch our deepest fears, let us replace those images with the work of human relations, reaching out to people, helping our own citizens here at home, lifting the plight of the poor everywhere.

That is the America which has the ability to rally the support of the world.

That is the America which stands not in pursuit of an axis of evil, but which is itself at the axis of hope and faith and peace and freedom. America, America. God shed grace on thee. Crown thy good, America.

Not with weapons of mass destruction. Not with invocations of an axis of evil. Not through breaking international treaties. Not through establishing America as king of a unipolar world. Crown thy good America. America, America. Let us pray for our country. Let us love our country. Let us defend our country not only from the threats without but from the threats within.

Crown thy good, America. Crown thy good with brotherhood, and sisterhood. And crown thy good with compassion and restraint and forbearance and a commitment to peace, to democracy, to economic justice here at home and throughout the world.

Crown thy good, America. Crown thy good America. Crown thy good.

Thank you.

E-Mail Congressman Kucinich: Dkucinich@AOL.com
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VotesForWomen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-17-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
297. OK, so you're writing in Kucinich, right? nt
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kotsu Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
300. What the hell
is wrong with you people. Do you remember who shoved the war down our throats. Do you remember how it was done? Do you remember how they were helped to do it?

Are you going to just let all happen again while you bicker at whatever BS is thrown at your feet and forget who your real enemy is?

Being a member of this party is so frigging frustrating this century.
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rove karl rove Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
301. like ESP?
war = death, any psychic knows that. Silly kid.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
304. I hope they interview the WI questioner who bore Her Snarkishness' "answer" with good grace...
... during exit polling tomorrow.

- Dave
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
310. I wouldn't even mind if Hillary just apologized
You don't have to be clairvoyant to do that. Just humble.
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
312. Great post. and Kicked for OBAMA
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
314. Kick for the children who are victims of Bush's war.
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