Rethugs believe they can "trounce" Obama. Hillary defined but rethugs can "teach" folks about Obama

[jackson_dem]

There is not surprising. The rethugs recognize who are weakest candidate is. Notice that John McCain is already acting as if Obama is the Democratic nominee because he knows fighting Obama will help Obama with Democrats, thereby increasing the chances of him drawing his preferred opponent. Obama is egging it on because it helps him for the same reason.

Norquist is arguably the most powerful rethug not holding a government position.

The article contained the gem of an Obama surrogate admitting Obama is a "moderate" who "wants to partner with business and corporations." This is consistent with what Obama's economic adviser allegedly said on CNBC the other day.


-snip-

LEADING Republicans believe they can trounce Barack Obama in the presidential election by tarring him as a shady Chicago socialist. They are increasingly confident that his campaign could collapse by the time their attack machine has finished with him.

Grover Norquist, an influential conservative tax reform lobbyist, said: “Barack Obama has been able to create his own image and introduce himself to voters, but the swing voters in a general election are not paying attention yet. He is open to being defined as a leftwing, corrupt Chicago politician.”

-snip-

“It will be easy to portray him as even harder-left than Hillary,” said Norquist. “Hillary could lose the election, but Obama could collapse. People already know Hillary and she is not popular, but the disadvantage for Obama is that Republicans can teach people who don’t know him who he is.”

-snip-

“Hillary put the issue into the bloodstream, but it didn’t get focused on,” said Norquist. He believes that well financed “527” attack groups – named after their tax-exempt status – will mercilessly pursue Obama over his ties to Rezko. It was a conservative “527” group, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, who did grave damage to John Kerry’s reputation as a war hero in the 2004 White House race.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3382313.ece

[Skwmom]

1. Clinton unites their base and the Republicans only need to

increase Clinton's negatives (oh wait, she's really helping them in that department so it doesn't seem like they'll have much work left to do).

Is this one of Murdoch's rags? Of course I forgot Murdoch and Clinton are no longer buddies (though it's amazing how his press really helped Clinton play the victim in NH, it really couldn't have worked out any better then if it had been planned).

[jackson_dem]

2. With what? Dragging out whitewater again?

Norquist is being brutally honest. They will "teach" Americans who Obama is. Obama is an even more blank slate than Kerry, Dukakis were. Even the well-known Gore was easily redefined by them.

Obama has not been vetted. Obama has received no serious criticism from the press. He is pristine right now but he can easily be beaten into a pulp by the rethug machine. He is a canvass on which they can put anything on. After all, they have the msm with them.

Hillary will unite their base and so will Obama, just like Kerry and Gore did. Barack ignores this but there is a reason we have always (with very brief interludes and none since the 1850's) had two parties in the country...

[ErnestoG]

3. The Rethugs are much more fearfull of Obama than Hillary.

They are grinning like giggling crocodiles at the thought of taking HER on.

[jackson_dem]

4. Which must be why their nominee is helping Obama so he can run against him

[ErnestoG]

16. Oh? What is McCAin, Obama's campaign manager now?

You have a talent for fiction.

[jackson_dem]

18. Isn't he the rethug nominee?

Wouldn't he know best who he wants to run against? Or should we listen to what Duers who hate Hillary for no real reason "believe"? He isn't helping Obama because he likes him...

[ErnestoG]

24. Do you think he wants to drop his hand yet?

If he really thought so and so was a threat, you think he'd say it in public right now? I guess you never worked on a campaign.

By the way, recent polls show Obama beating McCain, and Hillary tying McCain.

[jackson_dem]

26. Yes. Why wouldn't he try to draw the opponent who is weaker

No one is going to announce another candidate is stronger. You have to look at actions. He is acting as if Obama is the nominee and his feud with him has the effect of helping Obama with Democratic primary voters. Do you think he is doesn't know this?

The polls show a 4-5 point gap. McCain, as the article notes, knows what happens to "new" undefined candidates after the other party attacks. If Obama follows what happened to Kerry and Bush in 00' he will lose by 7-8 after suffering an 11 point swing against him like they did.

[ErnestoG]

33. You dont do that by dropping your hand, silly!

You do that by giving the impression that you fear someone ELSE, who you don't really.

My god have you ever played poker in your life?

[jackson_dem]

35. Exactly! He is making it appear that he fears, dislikes Obama

While his attacks give Obama additional cred with Democratic voters. It is very shrewd and Obama knows it and that is why he is playing along.

[ErnestoG]

41. How? You are making this up.

[jackson_dem]

49. You've missed the Obama-McCain "war" over the past few days?

Why do you think McCain launched it and do you think he is oblivious to the effect that would have on Democratic voters?

[ErnestoG]

50. That's a real stretch!

Those skirmishes come up all the time...you want to read into that that McCain truly fears Clinton?

Oy, like I said. You never played poker.

[jackson_dem]

54. What is the effect on Democratic voters that is produced by it?

[ErnestoG]

56. I guess you didn't see THIS ->

Poll: Obama would narrowly beat McCain
Clinton and McCain polling even in general election survey

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23114982/

[shayes51]

5. We should never forget that Dukakis was

18 points ahead of Bush 41 in the summer of 1988. The election in November will be difficult for Hillary or for Obama. Never think for a minute that the Republican base will stay home and let us have this one.

[bluestateguy]

6. You mean the Republican Party will depict the Democratic nominee as a liberal?

Oh my goodness!

Rezco was a big Bush fundraiser, by the way, so they may have to be careful about making that an issue.

[jackson_dem]

11. I thought they want to be friends with Obama, who is immune from attack?

He isn't polarizing right? He will be in a few months if he is the nominee...

[Thrill]

7. Hmmmmmm It appears clear to me they want Hillary

[jefferson_dem]

8. "Notice that John McCain is already acting as if Obama is the Democratic nominee"

That's because he's most likely to be the nominee, silly. http://www.intrade.com/jsp/intrade/contractSearch/

Seems Grover Norquist and Jackson_dem are two lone holdouts who actually believe Hillary would be a tougher GE candidate than Obama.

[jackson_dem]

13. You're smarter than this. What were the favorable ratings for Kerry in 04' and Bush in 00' in Feb?

That 10 point advantage over Hillary isn't worth anything. Once the rethugs are done with him he will have the same rating Kerry, Gore, and Bush 00' (who led by 11 at this time in 2000) had. Obama isn't immune to attack and losing ground as he goes from a Rorschach test to a defined nominee.

[hfojvt]

9. sorry, but I have been a teacher

It's not that easy to teach people. What you are looking at is having people in the 7th grade and you are trying to teach them algebra (or Obama hatred) in a few weeks.

Okay, I am contradicted by my last post, since so many DUers seemed to have learned in just a few weeks to hate Obama with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns.

Hopefully there are not as many of those as it seems.

Because on the other side are HHHers. Huge Hillary Haters. That's not something hard to learn. It's something we learned in kindergarten, and again in first grade and second grade and so on. Hillary hatred can be taught to those seventh graders as a short review course. As a teacher it is much easier to teach kids addition in the seventh grade than it is to teach them algrebra.

[LordJFT]

10. you're naive if you think Hillary's been vetted to the point where they can't bring up

whitewater, travelgate, filegate and the failed healthcare plan again.

[jackson_dem]

15. They will but it won't be nearly as effective

1) They already used them over a decade ago so everyone already knows about it
2) Hillary is already defined in the minds of everyone. Obama isn't. He can easily go from a msm hero to the next Dukakis.

[LordJFT]

20. Much of America has a short memory, people don't all remember them especially young voters

Obama's ability to turn people out to vote alone gives him a huge advantage

[jackson_dem]

23. So why is he winning only 51-49* if he alone is responsible for magic turnout?

The turnout is for the same reason 2004 had higher turnout than 2000. People are just more interested in this election, just as there was more interest in 2004 than 2000. Folks realize the stakes are very high. Obama is disingenuous when he takes sole credit for the rise in turnout despite the popular vote being basically a tie.

*52-47 if you disenfranchise Florida. I didn't count Michigan because we don't know for sure how many votes he would have gotten, although the exit poll had him at 35%.

[LordJFT]

31. He is bringing out a lot of new people

Hillary has support from more of the regulars that will be voting dem no matter what. And I'm not saying he has this locked up but he is certainly no Dukakis as you tried to claim.

[jackson_dem]

36. So is Hillary and so was Edwards

He may wind up being another Dukakis after the rethugs are done with him. What happened to his 17 point lead? Obama only has a 4-5 point one...

[LordJFT]

45. alright how about we make a bet if Obama wins the nom he will take more than his home state

like Dukakis did?

[jackson_dem]

48. Dukakis won 46% of the vote and about a dozen states

You're thinking of Mondale.

[LordJFT]

59. my mistake, still willing to make the bet that he does better than dukakis though

[in_cog_ni_to]

79. Bill Clinton left office with a 65% APPROVAL rating. Whitewater/travelgate isn't going to

sit well with voters. That's been tried and FAILED miserably. Hillary fought that battle too. She WILL fight them again. She won't coddle them just because she wants their support....like another candidate we know will.

[Skip Intro]

12. If Obama is the nom, we will have a president mccain.

Who will then be beaten by Hillary in 12.

If Obama's the nom.

That's still a big IF.

[Little Star]

19. Exactly!

[anigbrowl]

69. If you listen to Skip Intro, your brain will turn to mush.

See - I can make unsupported statements too. It's sad that some posters have no argument to promoe their candidate, but only toss substance-free allegations about the other. Criticism of a candidate is fine but should be backed up with facts and a coherent argument.

[Skip Intro]

72. Well thanks for giving me a lesson in the proper structure of a post, in you first week here.

Welcome to DU.

you do have a talent for diversion, PM me your resume.

enjoy your stay

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. Without a doubt.

They will skewer Obama. I can only imagine the garbage they have on him all ready for the pelting in the GE.....SHOULD he win, which is doubtful.

[nomorewhopper]

14. all the spin in the world won't change how much people hate hillary

just sayin

and you know i'm telling you the truth

the right is salivating to run against hillary. it will galvanize them, and they would destroy her.

[jackson_dem]

17. McCain obviously wants to run against Obama. What do he and Norquist know?

It is obvious Obama is undefined. Once they go after him they could make him another Dukakis. They are confident because they know the msm will help them do this. Obama could be a disaster.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

21. Double reverse psychology.

They want us to think that they want to face Obama so that we'll elect him but in reality, they want us to wonder why they want Obama so badly so that this must mean that they want Clinton. But because we can clearly see that they want us to support Obama so that in turn they make us scared of his ascendancy this will then in turn make us want to question our Obama support and therefore support Clinton, the candidate they wanted us to elect all along.

It's a fun parlor game; we should all play.

"Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

[jackson_dem]

28. How about we wake up and smell the coffee and look at what McCain is doing?

Is he helping Obama because he thinks St. Obama is a nice guy or because he wants to help Obama win the nomination so he can run against him and trounce him?

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

68. No, I've told you the plan.

He wants us to think he wants Obama so that we think that he thinks he can trounce him, but in reality he only wants us to think he wants Obama so that we'll be afraid and play right into his hands and nominate Clinton. He really wants to face Clinton. So he's playing nice with Obama so that we'll wonder why he's playing so nice. It's obvious that he knows something we don't (and that the national polls that show Obama beating him don't) and would much rather face Obama. So the he does a little jujitsu and begs for Obama knowing full well that we'll freak out and give him Clinton.

Your move.

[Brigid]

22. The Repugs have nothing more to "teach" me.

Thanks to them, I've learned that the American people really are stupid (or apathetic) enough to allow elections to be stolen. I've learned that fascism is alive and well in this country. I've learned to live under a president who doesn't care -- or even know -- that at least 2/3 of the country can't stand him. Opposition? It only encourages him. I've learned that is really is possible to hate someone you don't even actually know. I've learned enough to know I'm not voting for any Republican for any office ever again. And they have only themselves to blame for that. :grr: 

[RememberWellstone]

25. Racist rethugs will show

This will energize their racist, warmongering base if Obama were to get the nod. And frankly, I am fed up with the attacks from the Obama stepford kids running on this board. I am just now getting back into political fight form and low behold, Obama supporters are acting like he's the second coming. Please.

[jackson_dem]

39. Obama is immune from racism according to Obamites who say Ed Rendell was wrong

[mtnsnake]

27. Not only the rethugs know this, but the MSM media knows this too. Thus the big push for Obama

on every network, just about 24/7. The corporate media has a lot to lose if Hillary becomes president, and they are out to stop her before she gets a chance to demolish McCain. Obama would be a pushover because they are all well aware that Barack Obama would not be tough enough to stand up against McCain.

[jackson_dem]

40. mtnsnake is right once again. The msm is pushing him for a fucking reason!

[anigbrowl]

70. I see the conspiracy theory mindset is alive and well.

Yes, the years-long GOP grumbling campaign against Hillary was nothing more than a bait-and-switch tactic to mislead the Democratic party in nominating someone else. They KNEW someone like Obama was going to come along and if they could just slander Hillary enough then people would go for the attractive new person.

The fact that Clinton's own campaign for the nomination is full of embarrassing miscalculations and poor decisions is just a bonus.

[Bongo Prophet]

29. Straight from the right wing front "Hillary is 44" site to DU. We are being freeped.

That makes about a dozen a day or more.

The outrage over "periodic" by obama, means that he is anti-woman.
Fake fainting outrage!!!
He looks like Urkel!!! The modern day "step'n'fetchit" racism.


You sir, are as transparent as a foul wind.


http://www.hillaryis44.org/

Buy a Tshirt for $100!!

[jackson_dem]

42. That is stupid

Have you ever heard of a thing called Google? Put in "Hillary Clinton" and see what comes up.

[Bongo Prophet]

60. Right. googling "Hillary + Clinton" is the same as "Obama + Urkel"

We are on to you. Jack.

[mtnsnake]

75. You sound just like the ring leader of Paranoia Anonymous

We are on to you. Jack.

You Obamaites are so paranoid and uptight whenever someone comes along who is reasonable, that you treat them as if they were from another planet. Why are you so afraid? Truth bother you or something?

[Bongo Prophet]

76. I am not an "obamite," mtnsnake. Thanks for more name calling though.

I have seen where much of this stupid stuff comes from, gone to the sites where many are copy-pasting from, read their forums, and so on.
I hate doing it, as they are awful rumor peddling right wing sites, and I tend to stay away under normal situations.
One of these pretends to be a pro-Hillary site, but they are always getting things from FR, FOX, Hannity and so on.
Occasionally they will slip with right wing "tells", similar to "democrat party" or "socialist medicine" and that should give one a clue.

It is my opinion that the mean and insulting mode of communication HURTS their candidates more than helps.
DU should be a community, not a mob or gang war.

You disagree. Fine.

If you think Jdem's style of discourse is reasonable, then that says a lot.
He is always name calling, and being rude.
When I was trying to get people from both sides to back of on some of the rudeness, he either ignored or insulted.

I think that calling people Obamite, Hillbot and the like is childish behavior.
If that is "truth" to you, then that is sad.

If it is paranoid to notice these things, then so be it.

finally, if you are older than 12, please take a look at your own behavior. Your passion for a fine, intelligent woman has turned you into a name calling reactionary. Adults should have the ability to engage in discourse without such childishness.

Thank you.

[mtnsnake]

81. The one doing any name calling is not j_dem and it isn't me. It's you

The truth of my post to you obviously hit home or you wouldn't have rattled off another post full of untrue innuendo about j_dem, who is an asset to this board and not any of the preposterous things you called him or her.

If you think Jdem's style of discourse is reasonable, then that says a lot.
He is always name calling, and being rude.

That is an outright lie, and you should be ashamed for propagating that kind of nonsense. He/she is an asset to this forum and you just can't stand all the blatant truthfulness to the information that j_dem provides for us, so you attack, accuse, and insinuate out of your paranoia.

BTW, your the last person who should question anyone else's age on this board or call someone else a name-calling reactionary.

On edit: If you're offended by the term "Obamaite" or "Hillbot", theh you need to grow some thicker skin, pal.

[Bongo Prophet]

82. I invite anyone to compare our posts over time. I have defended both sides, and will continue.

If Clinton gets the nom, I will vote for her.
If Obama gets the nom, I will vote for him.


When people use dismissive name calling, I will point that out.
When people copy-paste from right wing sites, I will point that out.

When someone calls me a name, and then denies it and accuses me of being a name caller, I just need a thicker skin.
I have discussed this with long time DUers, who don't even like DU anymore because the bile is so thick.
I am sure you would tell these sensitive caring democrats that they need thicker skin as well.

Maybe someone needs to be more sensitive to others?
Do you really like the harsh discourse and right wing story lines being posted by both sides?
I guess doing battle is addictive to some.
I find it tragic, and repeat - DU is a community, not a mob.

[Arugula Latte]

30. Wrong! They want Hillary.

She has the high negative & the baggage, and she's the only one who can inspire their demoralized base to come out to vote -- against her.

[jackson_dem]

43. The rethug base came out in 1860, 18654, 1868, 1872, 1876, 1880, 1884, 1888, 1892, 1896, 1900, 1904,

1908, 1912, 1916, 1920, and so on.. St. Obama is going to use magic powers to make them stay home because they will love him so much? Give me a break!

[madrchsod]

32. grover norquist speaks and the hillary supporters

bow to his greatness! from murdoch`s main rag to boot!....tell us something we don`t already know grover....

grover has no creditability and any one who thinks he does should join his crusade. this guy was thrown out of illinois by the republicans because they could`t stand the son of a bitch....they told him that his views would be the
not welcome by the majority of republican candidates or voters in this state...ya those republicans that obama worked with.

i can`t believe any one would think this guy is any more important than the man in the moon....well it`s seems he`s important here at du.

[AX10]

37. Obama supporters proudly bow before many right wingers..

including Peggy Noonan, William Kristol, and David Brooks.

[jackson_dem]

44. What he is saying is what the rethug nominee is doing. Maybe it is their strategy?

Or does McCain want to help Obama because he thinks Obamai is a nice guy?

[Hill_YesWeWill]

34. That's not what my sister, a republican, thinks

maybe you know more republicans than I do, but I'm in Waco TX so I think I oculd argue otherwise!

[jackson_dem]

46. Why don't we look at what the rethug nominee is doing?

[Hill_YesWeWill]

52. huh? I don't pay attention to him!

I will later, but not now.

Look, my sister really believes the republicans have a chance against Hillary, and she's pretty involved for what it's worth

[bigbrother05]

38. Obama does politics "Chicago" style

There won't be any delays in countering the Swift Boaters. Obama will teach the people who he is and will 'school' the opposition. He strikes me as someone that has gotten ahead on his own merits, but has 'game' too. His "Hillary you're nice enough" comment shows that when necessary, he can slice & dice on the fly. Imagine how he'll come back at the RW attack machine. The only thing they have will be variations of the 'Muslim' email, the inexperienced meme, and of course the "He's black" whisper campaign they are sure to mount. All of these will be expected and will only play to the Rep base. They will most likely turn off the independents that McCain will desperately need to win in Nov. An Obama/McCain race will be one for the history books.

[jackson_dem]

47. He's done a horrible job countering the Muslim smear

[DemGa]

51. That's why there's not much negative for Obama YET

The republicans on Free Republic refer to Hillary as "the beast" and are just waiting (and hoping) for the Dems to do away with her. They are collecting "oppositional research" on Obama right now, but the word is to hold off until (and IF) the Dems get rid of Hillary. Why do you think they hate Hillary so much? It's because they FEAR her.

And harder left is exactly where they are going with Obama -- liberal 24/7. That's just an opening volley.

[jackson_dem]

55. Ding! Ding! Ding!

[psquare]

67. FWIW, I know a family of four "indies" who voted for Obama in the Ca primary

just because they wanted to vote against Hillary (they vote Repug but are registered indies). They absolutely despise (not fear, despise) her. I find that there are many independents who will not vote for Hillary, period. Almost all are open to Obama. Everyone seems to like his speeches and many make comments about how they are inspiring, etc. The Repugs have a real decision this November, and no amount ot Swift-boating is going to keep a lot of them from staying home. They don't like having only McCain, but if it's McCain versus Hillary, they will turn out.

[Johnny__Motown]

53. Chicago Socialist? he is from Hawaii and only moved there to work with the poor.

This stuff that gets posted here sometimes just doesn't make even the slightest amount of sense what so ever.

[kevsand]

57. If that 's true, they are underestimating him just like everyone else did.

I've seen this all before. All of us in Illinois underestimated him in the Senate primary. Then he got underestimated in the general. Hillary's people and the media seriously underestimated him in the past year. And all of you Hillary supporters continue to underestimate him every week, and the republicans will underestimate him in the fall.

He wins. He won the Senate primary, and he won the Senate seat, and he won Iowa, and you guys all keep counting him out, and he just keeps winning every week, and the margins get bigger and bigger as we go along. He will win in November.

You missed one important piece of wisdom in your quotes. Hillary is already defined, as they say. She's defined so well that half the country hates her and will never vote for her. I'd rather have someone who isn't defined yet, thank you very much. That way at least there's a chance, and that's all that Obama's ever needed.

[calmblueocean]

58. "Corrupt Chicago politician"? Pffft. That dog don't hunt. What they'll try to do is Muslimize him.

They will continue to emphasize his "Muslim roots" in ways that will confuse and frighten a certain number of swing voters. They will spread the rumor that electing Obama sends a signal to al Qaeda that they have won -- that we are now "Muslimizing" our president, and surrendering in Iraq. That's the line of attack they will use.

I think Obama can beat it, mostly by driving more young voters to the polls than he will lose because of these attacks. But it's not going to be easy, and Norquist is right: Hillary is less likely to win, but also less likely to lose big.

[stevietheman]

61. It's our job to "unteach" then. n/t

n/t

[Straight Shooter]

62. But you're not willing to "unteach" them about Hillary.

Interesting.

[stevietheman]

63. Because they're partially right about her. n/t

n/t

[DemGa]

64. WOW n/t

[stevietheman]

65. Yeah, I said it. :) n/t

n/t

[blitzen]

66. Be afraid. Be very afraid of those clever, all-knowing, politically infallible Rethugs...

not to mention the fact that there's no way in Hell that they'd prefer Obama as nominee

[still_one]

71. The polls seem to disagree with those rethugs that you are saying believe Obama is easy to beat /nt

[cloudythescribbler]

73. Yes, it's true that this is what the Repuke attack machine will TRY to do ...

but being resigned to this effort being SUCCESSFUL is perverse and premature.

[Renew Deal]

74. Let them underestimate Obama the way Hillary did.

And we'll see how it comes out. And McCain was helping Hillary against Obama earlier this week. Obama has much more potential against McCain. Hillary is a guaranteed loser.

[Iceburg]

77. Premature ..../nt

[RBInMaine]

78. Kindly get real. The Republicans WANT to run against Hillary.

Please come into reality. Hey, just ask them. The R's are HOPING AND PRAYING that we hand them the gift of Hillary to run against so that it will unite their party and send hundreds of millions of dollars into the campaign coffers overnight.