Barack Obama & Oratory. A word from Bob Dylan.

[saltpoint]

Crimson flames tied through my ears, rolling high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads, using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I, proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

--Bob Dylan, "My Back Pages"

The passage that nabbed me quick and hard was "...using ideas as my maps."

Among his many successful roles, Obama was an editor. He's done a bit of reading and thinking, using ideas as maps. It shows. And it matters.

Under Dubya's rule, the country has been dumbed-down and sorrowfully embarrassed here in our own streets and cities and towns and certainly across the world. I think any of our 8 announced candidates are capable of a much-needed and overdue restoration of national self-respect and mutual respect for other nations and cultures, but we are at two major candidates now on our Democratic ballots with any real shot at the Oval Office. I'll vote for either over bloodthirsty McCain. But I'm drawn to the uplift in the language, as I was drawn to JFK who riveted any American who had the good sense to listen to his Inaugural address.

There's been a paucity of speech and ideas for these last miserable eight years. Bush can't put two sentences together, and if he tries, the first has nothing to do with the second and both are lies to start with. I believe Obama's rise in support is owed to his gift of speech and his voluntary and productive exploration of books and ideas.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. the amazing thing about him is

he can give a 20-minute speech which is as thrilling in the middle as it is in the beginning or the end. Clinton could speak well too, but often I'd find myself tuning out after a while. Bush, obviously was pathetic from the first word to the last mangled sentence.

[saltpoint]

2. "...Bush, obvously was pathetic from the first word to the last mangled

sentence."

That's perfect.

It's sad, and I cringe when the man speaks, no matter the topic. I used to look forward to U.S. presidents' State-of-the-Union addresses, but that loyalty has come under considerable strain with George W. Bush.

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. i can't wait for Obama's first SOTU address

i think it'll go down in the ages and kids will be reciting it in classes for generations.

[saltpoint]

4. And an Inaugural address that comes at a time when we need the

words as citizens.

If Barack Obama is our next president, I'll by god be tuning in to his SOTU. Agree with you on the impact, too -- I can see high school English teachers assigning it to students.

[ErnestoG]

11. I so look forward to a president who can form a cogent paragraph again...

[saltpoint]

15. - - - -

:thumbsup:

[girl gone mad]

5. But what would Phil Ochs say?

Obama another JFK? A tribute:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=c-bL3YbG_Lg

And this, which applies equally to Bush:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fwsIeYTNLdo

[saltpoint]

6. girl gone mad, thank you for the links. Now you've gone and gotten me

homesick for Phil Ochs.

No fair!

[girl gone mad]

7. Sometimes you have to take sides..

and there's a man who was never afraid to.

He was a great man. There are lots more old videos and recordings of his on Youtube. :)

[saltpoint]

8. I should have lived in the age of traveling minstrel singers. I think it

would have suited me.

I'll have to do more exploring on that site.

Thank you.

[RFKJrNews]

18. Great thread, OC

Good to see `ya...(my, you're up late tonight!)...and another great thread. Thoughtful and interesting as always.:)

Dylan and Phil Ochs...wow. This is why I love late nights on DU.

Speaking of the late, great Mr. Ochs...thought I'd throw out a few words from him that could have been written this week:

I AIN'T MARCHING ANYMORE

Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain't marchin' anymore

For I've killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain't marchin' anymore


It's always the old to lead us to the war
It's always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all

For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others But I ain't marchin' anymore

For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain't marchin' anymore


For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
That I ain't marchin' anymore

Now the labor leader's screamin'
when they close the missile plants,
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason,"
Call it "Love" or call it "Reason,"
But I ain't marchin' any more,
No I ain't marchin' any more

[saltpoint]

22. Considering where you hang out, it is a delightful certainty that you would

have some superb music references at your disposal.

And by god you sure came up with one right there.

Hey there. I hope it's going well for you these days. Pretty big primry coming up on March 4th!

[RFKJrNews]

30. God, I miss Phil Ochs.

The man was a genius...so underrated...and so damn *right* about everything. I just hope the younger generation will discover him and keep his amazing music alive.

OC, it seems all eyes are on TX (we're enjoying the attention!) right now, although Austinites like myself are pretty doggone mad about what's happening with the CNN debate this Thursday. Incase you haven't heard about this outrage, here's another thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4623356

Sounds like somebody needs the "Johnson Treatment.":)

[saltpoint]

31. "the Johnson treatment" !!

I try hard to find something nice to say about CNN, especially since FOX News is so egregious, but it gets harder and harder as we go along.

I'll keep a close watch on doings down in the Lone Star State in advance of the primary, but if you post updates, I'll hope to run into those. It's hard to beat an inside view of events.

Thank you.

[RFKJrNews]

36. Will do, OC

Not sure if you saw these, the most recent updates about the CNN Democratic presidential debate on our blog:

"HOW TO GET A TICKET TO THE CNN DEBATE IN AUSTIN"

http://rfkin2008.wordpress.com/2008/02/16/how-to-get-a-ticket-to-the-cnn-democratic-debate-in-austin/

"DEMOCRATS PREPARE FOR SHOWDOWN IN TEXAS"

http://rfkin2008.wordpress.com/2008/02/14/democrats-prepare-for-showdown-in-texas/

Know what you mean about CNN - about the only show I still watch religiously is "Reliable Sources" on Sunday mornings...of course, I don't think anyone else actually watches that show excepts news nerds like me...

But the craziest thing I've EVER seen is FOx Noise actually giving Hillary Clinton favorable coverage after 15 years of ripping her apart.

Nowadays, MSNBC is the "we hate Hillary" network, and Fox loves her.

go figure...

now, back to our regularly scheduled musical program...more Dylan and Phil Ochs lyrics, please!

[Cha]

48. Thanks, I kicked your thread..

I feel your pain:( We have to be constantly vigilant to make the m$$$m accountable.. They were going to hold a presidential debate on campus, invitation only, without students until they went to plan C?!!

A question..why would RFKjr run when he's supporting hilary?:)

[RFKJrNews]

55. Thanks for the kick, my friend

I posted a link to the thread as a call to action in the TX forums as well. Since the CNN debate is this Thursday, we don't have much time left to pressure the organizers of this debate to finally give the right answer...plan D, that is. Let the people in!!!!

Why *would* RFK Jr. run in `08? Dunno....depends on what happens to Hillary, I suppose. Or if he decides to go for her Senate seat instead, perhaps as a springboard to a potential run in 2012 or `16.

Why *should* RFK Jr. run for President? The reasons are too numerous to list here - but you probably know them already!:)

[Seabiscuit]

23. What would Dr. Phil say?

"Yo, Obama, quit stealing my thunder!"

[anamandujano]

9. "He's done a bit of reading and thinking"--He needs to do a lot more.

Nice trick trying to associate Obama with Dylan.

OMG! He listened to Dylan's music. Who didn't?

[saltpoint]

10. Most of the people running my junior high definitely didn't.

It was their loss.

We could all do a lot more reading and thinking, IMO.

[Cha]

13. Your trick isn't very nice..trying to downplay

what Obama has accomplished..but, as always, it says more about you than anyone.

[anamandujano]

21. I'm sure he'd like to downplay this one and you're right, it does say

a lot about him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?_r=4&ei=5087&em=&en=095184f64ec13024&ex=1202187600&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1203232488-ET3/u+qvCCFuHtnuZSWC5A

When residents in Illinois voiced outrage two years ago upon learning that the Exelon Corporation had not disclosed radioactive leaks at one of its nuclear plants, the state’s freshman senator, Barack Obama, took up their cause.

Mr. Obama scolded Exelon and federal regulators for inaction and introduced a bill to require all plant owners to notify state and local authorities immediately of even small leaks. He has boasted of it on the campaign trail, telling a crowd in Iowa in December that it was “the only nuclear legislation that I’ve passed.”

“I just did that last year,” he said, to murmurs of approval.

A close look at the path his legislation took tells a very different story. While he initially fought to advance his bill, even holding up a presidential nomination to try to force a hearing on it, Mr. Obama eventually rewrote it to reflect changes sought by Senate Republicans, Exelon and nuclear regulators. The new bill removed language mandating prompt reporting and simply offered guidance to regulators, whom it charged with addressing the issue of unreported leaks.

Those revisions propelled the bill through a crucial committee. But, contrary to Mr. Obama’s comments in Iowa, it ultimately died amid parliamentary wrangling in the full Senate.

The article also mentions that Exelon is "the country’s largest nuclear plant operator and one of Mr. Obama’s largest sources of campaign money."

Although the bill never passed (even the watered down version; what a great inspirational leader), he totally screwed the people he was supposed to represent.

This gives him very deep pockets for his scorched earth campaign.

[Cha]

12. If we get Obama it will be

because the pendulum will swing and it will swing hard. And, we'll be like "Switch!" We can do it!

Nice piece, Crusoe..thanks for the uplifting words on what Obama means for us woven with Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages". I always loved that refrain..
Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

[saltpoint]

14. Hi, zidzi. Yes -- that refrain is kind of jammed into my brain and it

ain't gonna ever leave, I don't think.

The polling out of Ohio and Texas suggest a Clinton win in both states, but I think you are right on the pendulum idea -- possibly we'll see Obama win in Wisconsin and Hawaii on Tuesday, which sets the table for continuation of his upward trend in the polling. We'll have to see how Democrats in RI, VT, OH and TX feel about things in a couple of weeks.

[Cha]

16. Ah, Vermont! I'm really excited..

I don't want these possibilities to be taken away but I'll adjust if the need arises. :)

[saltpoint]

17. I'm wondering how things look up in green Vermont for the nomination

race. There are a lot of Democrats and Independents up that way.

[Cha]

19. Yeah, me too..and it made me think of

cali from Vermont whom I haven't seen on board the last few days..taking a break perhaps.. but when she comes back we can ask her.

[Seabiscuit]

20. I was in 10th grade when JFK was elected, and sorry, but...

Obama's speeches don't begin to approach JFK's oratory skills.

Obama turns old phrases from JFK, RFK, MLK and Cesar Chavez into tired, worn out campaign slogans in his speeches. His speeches are obviously completely written by someone else, and he just memorizes them.

JFK had Theodore ("Ted") Sorenson as a speechwriter, but they worked together on their speeches. The "ask not what your country can do for you, rather ask what you can do for your country" phrase was merely a Sorenson-polished version of something JFK came up with originally. That's how they worked. They never relied, as Obama's speechwriters do, on old quotes from former famous Democrats like FDR or Truman.

I'm sorry, but I've been around long enough to recognize a cynical gasbag when I see one, and that's how Obama impresses me. There's simply nothing "there" there, and with all the evidence that's surfaced here about his corporatist and right-wing connections, I also see him as not so much the enemy, but as someone who could become an easy target and tool of the enemy.

Obama is no JFK. Not even close.

Neither is Clinton, but I must say by now she's considerably closer.

[saltpoint]

24. Well, either he or Senator Clinton is going to be the nominee, unless

Fate has some trick to play in a brokered convention.

I'll support either.

[Seabiscuit]

25. Needless to say, so will I. Neither of us wants "100 years war" McCain.

[saltpoint]

28. True. McCain worries me. I mean he worries me a LOT.

[Seabiscuit]

34. He represents, at a minimum, 4 more years of the same putrid shit. He's a war monger.

And easily controlled by the same "military-industrial complex" that Eisenhower warned of and which rules this country right now. He would be just as much their puppet has Bush as been.

What scares me almost as much is the danger that Obama could be almost as easily controlled as McCain could.

[anamandujano]

32. Have you seen this Seabiscuit?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4624938&mesg_id=4625715

Obama's plans for war are practically the same as McCain.

[Seabiscuit]

33. That is one frightening article.

[Nutmegger]

26. A good early morning to you OC

A pleasure bumping into you tonight. :hi::hug:

[saltpoint]

27. Hey Nutmegger. The same's true right back atcha.

I hope all's well your way.

Yeah -- we're up late tonight. Got Karla Bonoff on the stereo, doing "The Water is Wide." What a knockout.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. More...

He sits in your room, his tomb, with a fist full of tacks
Preoccupied with his vengeance
Cursing the dead that can't answer him back
I'm sure that he has no intentions
Of looking your way, unless it's to say
That he needs you to test his inventions.

Can you please crawl out your window?
Use your arms and legs it won't ruin you
How can you say he will haunt you?
You can go back to him any time you want to.

He looks so truthful, is this how he feels
Trying to peel the moon and expose it
With his businesslike anger and his bloodhounds that kneel
If he needs a third eye he just grows it
He just needs you to talk or to hand him his chalk
Or pick it up after he throws it.

Can you please crawl out your window?
Use your arms and legs it won't ruin you
How can you say he will haunt you?
You can go back to him any time you want to.

Why does he look so righteous while your face is so changed
Are you frightened of the box you keep him in
While his genocide fools and his friends rearrange
Their religion of the little ten women
That backs up their views but your face is so bruised
Come on out the dark is beginning.

Can you please crawl out your window?
Use your arms and legs it won't ruin you
How can you say he will haunt you?
You can go back to him any time you want to.


CAN YOU PLEASE CRAWL OUT YOUR WINDOW?
Words and Music by Bob Dylan
1965, 1966 Warner Bros. Inc
Renewed 1993 Special Rider Music

[Scurrilous]

35. K & R

:thumbsup:

[rug]

37. Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters.

Subterranean Homesick Blues

[saltpoint]

41. There's a Grateful Dead account of Bobby asking Jerry about Dylan's lyrics.

This is a bit fuzzy & paraphrased, but it's something like Bobby turning to Jerry in a contemplative group setting and asking,

"Where does Dylan get those amazing lyrics?" -- evidently saying it more as a statement than a question --

--and Jerry saying, in the way a mystic might say it, "I don't know."

The Dead always appear to have been attracted to amazing musicians. It's part of their legacy.

[HeraldSquare212]

43. I've come to think of Dylan as an idiot savant in some ways

He just absorbed all this musical tradition and then pulled different pieces of it from here and there all together. Like, there's an old song called "Go away from my window." Dylan used that as the first line of "It Ain't Me Babe." It's a very striking line.

And the song quoted from above? that was Dylan basically rejecting politics.

[saltpoint]

44. Hi, heraldsqure. Agree -- there's that strong, identifiable eclectic

channel in Dylan. He culls from hidden places some awfully powerful stuff and weaves it into beautiful garments.

I'm a fan of EMPIRE BURLESQUE, which in my opinion is an underrated collection.

And more than once I've found myself with "Shelter from the Storm" from BLOOD ON THE TRACKS in my head.

[HeraldSquare212]

47. Damn, I agree with you on Empire Burlesque

I've never heard anyone else say that.

[BeyondGeography]

38. What is so often the most memorable thing about Presidents?

What they said.

K&R

[saltpoint]

42. Yer durn tootin'.

:toast:

[babylonsister]

39. Most excellent post, OC-thank you! nt

[saltpoint]

40. Hi, babylonsister. A pleasure to run into you as always.

:hi: :thumbsup: :dem:

[Honeycombe8]

45. BUT under Bush...."our childrens is learnin'!" nt

[saltpoint]

46. They is indeed. In other words, they is learnin'.

LOL!

[chimpymustgo]

49. OC, what's your favorite line from an Obama speech?

I listen, and I listen carefully, and I'm usually bored by the man. Except when he quotes MLK or JFK.

[saltpoint]

51. I like the way he threads historical reference into current urgency.

It is a skill as much as a talent, and it pervades his book, THE AUDACITY OF HOPE.

It seems to me that he uses this strategy to clarify the need for public service -- his or yours or mine or anyone's -- and that we labor in the shadow of giants. Dr. King, John Kennedy, Harriet Tubman, and so forth.

There is also something very distinct and traceable in Obama's language that suggests Robert Kennedy (perhaps even more than John Kennedy) and more recently, Mario Cuomo of the 80s and eraly 90s and Kucinich and Edwards of the current cycle -- and that is the acknowledgment of the anonymous worker, the anonymous parent trying to raise kids, the anonymous person struggling with illness who cannot afford adequate health care, and so forth. I'm attuned to that since Robert Kennedy won the Indiana Democratic primary over its governor & native son in 1968, and I hear it in Obama's language, whether on stage or in his book.

[chimpymustgo]

53. I hear a string of platitudes and phony preaching.

Guess it's a matter of taste. But I think it's telling that there's nothing specifically memorable - even to you. I think Obama is picking up on Edwards' populist themes and anecdotes of late - and his speeches are better for it.

I just don't get the thrills and chills, and I certainly don't remember a word from any of them.

[saltpoint]

54. Historians are likely writing books about the 2008 campaign already.

My guess is that Obama's oratory will be noted. If he is our nominee, it's REALLY going to be noted.

[Caro]

50. Speeches and ideas ...

... don't put food on your family.

Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com

[saltpoint]

52. One of the great Bushisms of the past 8 years.

What an odd man, George W. Bush. Odd and willfully ignorant and unfortunately, malevolently powerful.

I'm counting the days til November.