Need some info on Obama and gun control

[Hepburn]

I have a Repubbie friend who dislikes McCain and is considering supporting Obama if he is the Dem nominee rather than voting for McCain. My pal is a big fan of the 2nd Amendment. I went to the Obama website and I could not find a position statement by him on guns, gun control and/or the 2nd Amendment. My friend is looking for info on this but not from some news article...but straight from the candidate.

Anyone have a link? TIA...:hi:

[Araxen]

1. Hope this helps

* Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
* 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
* Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
* Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
* Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
* Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gun_Control.htm

[Recursion]

2. Well, it's one of his weaker points from a "crossover" standpoint

He has said in the past he wants to ban civilian ownership of semi-automatic weapons. Essentially, his position is the same as Kucinich's.

As an ardent supporter of gun rights, this worries me, but not enough to flip me to a Republican.

Both Obama and McCain share "F" ratings from the NRA; that might be the avenue to take with your friend.

[Hepburn]

5. Well, that does help ~~ the "F" rating for both McCain and Obama

My Repubbie pal was under the impression that McCain was real gung-ho on supporting the 2nd Amendment...and a darling of the gun lovers.

The conversation we had this evening over dinner was kind of interesting. This guy is a Reaganite...and one of the reasons he voiced that gave him concern about McCain was the age factor. It concerned him a great deal that a "nutcase" like Huckabee could become POTUS is he was VP and McCain died.

[Enthusiast]

17. Here is the deal, dmesg...........

The gun manfacturers are not satisfied with gun sales to law abiding hunters and enthusiasts. They must manufacture mass numbers of handguns and automatic weapons to satisfy their lust for profit. I am a hunter and I can see through their smokescreen. They always use this issue to divide us. No Democratic candidate has a problem with hunting weapons. The NRA has mischaracterized the Domocratic position. Imagine that............

[formernaderite]

30. as a gun enthusiast I can assure you most of us don't want to hunt

we go to the range....for relaxation. I happen to like shooting automatic weapons. Nothing at all to do with hunting. But I'm willing to overlook this issue as I'm sure it will never pass into law.

[Recursion]

33. You should really educate yourself on this topic if it is important to you

The gun manfacturers are not satisfied with gun sales to law abiding hunters and enthusiasts.

Gun manufacturers are going broke in this country.

They must manufacture mass numbers of handguns and automatic weapons to satisfy their lust for profit.

Certainly automatic weapons sales are a large part of some companies' profits, but these are only a few with military contracts.

Why? Because (and it seems like you don't know this) there has not been a civilian market for automatic weapons for 20 years, and there was almost no market for 50 years before that. American civilians do not buy automatic weapons, do not own automatic weapons, and you can count on your hands the number of times in the past three decades that automatic weapons have been used in crimes.

There have been some gun manufacturers that made cheap handguns more or less intentionally for ultimate sale to criminals. This market is much more tenuous now that handgun purchases require a background check, and the way to solve what is left of this problem is to go after straw purchasers. Also, one might open the Federal background check system to individuals making private sales.

No Democratic candidate has a problem with hunting weapons.

80 percent of gun-owners don't hunt. And when the rest of us see our party talk so much about "hunting" it reinforces two ideas:
1) Most Democrats are woefully (and willfully) ignorant about guns
2) Gun control still hasn't shaken off its racist legacy ("hunters" is a DLC code word for "whites")

[enfield collector]

38. the 2nd ammendment has nothing to do with hunting. Given the

bradey bunch talking points you just regurgitated I'd be surprised if you were a hunter.

[Enthusiast]

43. You are right,

I hunted for many years, mostly whitetailed deer, some squirrel. But,you are right, I am disabled. Because of my disablities I can no long hunt. But, we eat all the venison that my son and friends provide. And I wasn't aware that I regurgitated anything. I was never a Brady Bunch fan, I was too old, besides, I found it lame. Maybe you mean the Brady Bill.

[FyurFly]

3. Gun grabbing traitor to the constitution n/t

[Enthusiast]

18. Hey Fly...............

Fuck you!

[nonconformist]

4. Obama has an F rating from the NRA. nt

[sandnsea]

6. He believes in the right to own guns

that it is a personal 2nd Amendment Right. However, like every other right has limits, he believes there are ways to provide solutions to cities that don't violate the needs of rural gun owners. Basically we need to keep the guns out of the hands of criminals and kids.

[jackson_dem]

7. I believe Obama voted for a bill to confiscate guns from citizens in New Orleans after Katrina

Hillary voted against it. Obama seems to thing happy talk can cause rethugs to rewrite or discard their platform. That is ludicrous. His gun position alone will prevent him from seriously competing in many states.

[Hepburn]

9. Well, I can tell you this much...

...my Reagan Repubbie friend said that if it is McCain and Hillary, he will stay home and not vote at all. I would say he dislikes McCain and Hillary about equally. However, he might vote for Obama ~~ just depends. I found that very interesting since in all the years I have known this man, I cannot recall him ever saying a kind word about any Dem.

[MH1]

28. Link or bill number please. nt

[RFKJrNews]

8. K&R...because every informed voter should know

the candidate's positions on gun control.

Considering the deep sh*t our country is in and who's running things now, methinks a lot of folks are starting to figure out why the founders put the 2nd Amendment in there...right behind the First.

Disarm the populace, and we're SITTING DUCKS.

[Hepburn]

11. What I am looking for is a policy statement straight from Obama.

I did not see one on his website ~~ I googled and I got a link to his site, but I saw nothing. I am hoping someone has a link to a position statement from him. My friend wants the link and I sure as hell would like to get another Dem vote for us in November ~~ assuming Obama is the nominee cuz like I said, there is NO way he will vote for Hillary.

[sandnsea]

21. Here are his remarks

Which is consistent with everything I've read regarding his view of guns. He believes the 2nd Amendment does give a clear right to personal gun ownership. However, even speech is regulated, there's no reason guns can't be regulated to keep them out of the hands of criminals and kids.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/15/668828.aspx

[krispos42]

24. Oy. I can't believe he's pushing that bullet-registration thing

And I don't agree with "local" control of gun laws, either. But, as President he has no authority to determine if cities can have their own gun-control laws or not, so I'm not going to worry about it.

[MH1]

27. You don't think Philadelphia should be able to have its own gun control laws?

When there is NO WAY any law that makes sense for a city will get through the PA legislature?

[Recursion]

34. The problem is this was the anti-Civil Rights Act argument

"Why shouldn't Mississippi be able to set its own discrimination laws?"

I'm not so much against the principle of localities deciding gun issues; it's just that like with states' rights and civil rights, they've proven time and time again they can't be trusted to.

[krispos42]

35. No, frankly

It results in a patchwork of laws that don't affect crime but do get honest people in trouble. Most of the laws that "make sense" to urban people don't do squat for crime anyway but are the end result of politicians and people terrified of telling the public it's okay to defend themselves. The are so sick and tired of violence they try to stamp it out completely, not willing to risk sayings "the problem isn't violence, it's aggression". No one has the balls to say "It's okay to be violent in self-defense", much less encourage it. It's a zero-tolerence policy, and we both know that a zero-tolerence policy is a substitute for rational thought.

It's the same mentality that keeps pot illegal. Politicians don't fear a backlash when they throw our Constitutional rights in the shitter, but they fear one from legalizing pot. Which just shows how fucked up our process is.

Politicians flog guns because it's easy and popular to blame for everything. Guns are not the motive for rape and assault and home invasions and robbery and murder, they are the means. Trying to take away the means without adress the motives is a strategy I feel is doomed to failure.

But, regardless, I think it's an issue that belongs on the state level, not the city. I don't buy the "it different here" thinking. People in cities go hunting and target shooting and need to protect their families, same as rural and suburban folk.

[MH1]

29. "bullet registration" - anyone have a link to the CA law that he referred to?

Here is the full quote from the First Read piece:

He called for existing gun laws to be strengthened and pointed to a new law in California that allows authorities to trace bullets back to the guns they came from as a measure that both sides of the gun debate could potentially agree upon.

I'd like to know more about what the CA law actually does. Also, read in context, it appears there is reason to believe from the CA experience with the bill, that this was something "both sides of the gun debate could potentially agree upon." If so then I don't see why it is such a bad thing.

[krispos42]

36. Sure, here it is...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x156486

There's a thread about it in the Gungeon.

[krispos42]

10. Not good

But I doubt anything significant will reach his desk to sign, so I'm not worried about it. Gun control in recent years has been marked by manufactured hysteria about first "assault weapons", then "deadly assault weapons". This was part of an attempt to look tough on crime without resorting to the traditional republican "lock'em up and throw away the key" mentality.

Ironically, the issue got so much attention that sales of semi-automatic rifles soared as millions of people became aware of them.

Now the anti-gun people are twisting themselves into knots to pass more legislation, in the interest of public safety, of course, to make legally owning a gun as difficult as possible. Now one group wants to make it mandatory to laser-engrave a unique serial number on the base of every bullet in a box of ammo, and to make shooters register said ammunition. Hey, why not? We only make seven billion rounds of ammo a year here! Piece of cake!

Other anti-gun people have tried to revive a permanent and much more restrictive "super-duper-deadly assault weapon" ban, House Bill 1022.

Here a link to a quickie CNN blurb

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.gun.html



It probably isn't different in any significant way from Hillary's, truth be told.

[Hepburn]

13. Thanks....

...and I am more concerned over it being not much different than McCain.

My pal hates the RW bullshit on social issues like gay marriage, etc. But...he is a gun nut. Talk about trying to find a candidate that fits with his important issues...that is a tough deal!

[villager]

14. and thus the cold-bloodedness of the ammophile: Mass shootings are "manufactured hysteria"

Nothing is wrong in Oz, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... or the blood all over your floor....

[krispos42]

19. Tell me in my post where I mentioned mass shootings.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

[villager]

20. oh, so that wouldn't be part of the "manufactured hysteria" then? Because you gun folks sure dismiss

those gun crimes as anything to do with, well, guns, for starters.

[krispos42]

23. Hmmmm... mass shootings....

Even though I did not mention mass schootings in my other post (thank you, by the way, for admitting that) let's discuss them. These are all from the past ten years or so which involed somebody with a gun shooting at random people inside a US school someplace. I didn't include non-random murders, of which there were quite a few. Some students take love, grades, and being "dissed" VERY seriously.

• Northern Illinois University: one shotgun, three handguns, five dead plus shooter
  
• Lousiana Technical College: one handgun, two dead plus shooter
  
• Virginia Polytechnic: two handguns, 32 dead plus shooter
  
• Case Western Reserve University: two handguns, one dead
  
• University of Arizona: five handguns, three dead plus shooter.
  
• Appalachian School of Law: one handgun, three dead
  
• Pacific Lutheran University: gun unknown, one dead plus shooter
  
• Pennsylvania State University: one rifle (bolt-action), one dead plus shooter
  
• SuccessTech Academy: two handguns, shooter dead
  
• Springwater Trail High School: guns unknown, no dead
  
• A high school in Joplin, Missouri: one deadly assault weapon, no dead, no injuries
  
• Platte Canyon High School: one handgun, one dead plus shooter
  
• Orange High School: one shotgun, one rifle (unknown type), none killed at school but shooter killed his father at home
  
• Campbell County High School: one handgun, one killed
  
• Red Lake High School: two handguns, one shotgun, ten killed: two off-campus, seven on campus, plus shooter
  
• Granite Hills High School: one handgun, one shotgun, nobody killed
  
• Santana High School: one handgun, two killed
  
• Fort Gibson Middle School: one handgun, nobody killed
  
• Deming Middle School: one rifle (type unknown), one killed
  
• Heritage High School: one rifle, one handgun, nobody killed
  
• Columbine High School: one handgun, one carbine, two shotguns, 15 killed including two shooters
  
• Thurston Senior High School: one rifle, two dead, plus shooter's parents
  
• Westside Middle School, one bolt-action rifle, two semi-automatic rifles (possibly deadly assault weapons), four handguns, five killed
  
• West Nickel Mines School: one handgun, one shotgun, 5 killed
  
  
  
  Wow, look at the blood just DRIPPING from use of all those deadly assault weapons! The one known use of a "deadly assault weapon" didn't kill anybody or anything except a water pipe!
  

[RFKJrNews]

32. as they say, "Guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill people."

Y'know, those guns didn't just let themselves out of their storage cases, put on a black trench coat, suddenly grow legs and arms, walk to a school and miraculously manage to fire themselves.

Guns are inanimate objects. Let's stop personifying them, shall we?

[benEzra]

25. No, the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch is manufactured hysteria.

All rifles combined (including so-called "assault weapons") account for only half as many murders annually as shoes and bare hands.

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

Rifles aren't a crime problem in the United States and never have been, even small-caliber rifles with modern styling (aka "assault weapons").

[villager]

37. if we look at rifles separate from shotguns, but more importantly,

leave handguns, with high-round, repeating clips, separated out from our "argument?"

Disingenuous, as ever.

[krispos42]

39. I was talking about the perjorative term "assault weapon"

and the hysteria thereof.

The definition of "asault weapon" is arbitrary. Under the now-expired 1993 Assault Weapon Ban (really a ban on selling new guns; it's didn't do a thing with guns already in the hands of citizens), a rifle, a shotgun or a handgun could termed an "assault weapon". A lot of rifles fall under that federal definition. In particular, civilian-legal AK-47-pattern and AR-15-pattern rifles. Few shotguns and few handguns fall into the "assault weapon" catagory, though.

In particular, they targeted the Tec-9 pistol as an "assault weapon", which was not a good idea. Frankly, if criminals had more Tec-9s and fewer revolvers and Glocks, the nation would be a safer place. The Tec-9 was originally designed as a fully-automatic machine pistol, so the features that work for a fully-auto handgun suck for a regular handgun. Having the magazine forward of the trigger makes the gun harder to conceal and robs the gun of barrel length while doing nothing to make the gun better. It makes a good handhold in full-auto fire, but sucks when you try for aimed fire.

They jammed a lot, too. But I digress...

From Wikipedia:

Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

• Large capacity ammunition magazines
  
• Folding or telescoping stock
  
• Conspicuous pistol grip
  
• Bayonet mount
  
• Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
  
• Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

• Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
  
• Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or silencer
  
• Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
  
• Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
  
• A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:

• Folding or telescoping stock
  
• Pistol grip
  
• Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
  
• Detachable magazine

When you say "assault weapon", people usually think of a military-looking rifle.

[Recursion]

42. Ah, the TEC-9

Frankly, if criminals had more Tec-9s and fewer revolvers and Glocks, the nation would be a safer place.

Amen. Those guns should have been banned for being pieces of shit, not for being deadly assault weapons.

OTOH, they did introduce the banger habit of holding a pistol horizontally. Why? Because the shitty TEC-9 ejected its brass right into the shooter's forehead if it's held in a proper attitude. That one habit may have saved more cops' lives than ballistic vests.

[benEzra]

40. Huh? Krispos said the "assault weapon" hysteria was manufactured.

and you misunderstood him to be speaking of mass shootings.

"Assault weapons" are almost exclusively rifles, e.g. AR-15's, civilian AK lookalikes, and whatnot. A few shotguns (like Benelli turkey hunting guns) fall under the label, but not that many, and a very few odd-looking handguns (most of which haven't been manufactured for years, and aren't a crime problem either). "Assault weapons" are not a crime problem and never have been.

For decades the primary handgun used in homicides has been the .38/.357 revolver, though 9mm pistols may have overtaken them in recent years. Not "assault weapons" of any description.

BTW, what the heck is a "high-round, repeating clip"? Are you talking about ordinary 13- to 17-round magazines like most police-style pistols use, or something else?

[Recursion]

41. What's a "high-round, repeating clip"?

I've been shooting for years, and have never heard of one. What do you mean?

[Extend a Hand]

12. Obama Supports Individual Gun Rights

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UQTAS80&show_article=1

MILWAUKEE (AP) - Barack Obama said Friday that the country must do "whatever it takes" to eradicate gun violence following a campus shooting in his home state, but he believes in an individual's right to bear arms.

Obama said he spoke to Northern Illinois University's president Friday morning by phone and offered whatever help his Senate office could provide in the investigation and improving campus security. The Democratic presidential candidate spoke about the Illinois shooting to reporters while campaigning in neighboring Wisconsin.

The senator, a former constitutional law instructor, said some scholars argue the Second Amendment to the Constitution guarantees gun ownerships only to militias, but he believes it grants individual gun rights.

"I think there is an individual right to bear arms, but it's subject to commonsense regulation" like background checks, he said during a news conference.

[Hepburn]

15. Thanks! I can always count on the DU for help! n/t

[krispos42]

22. beware the code words: "common-sense"

Framing issue. "I support common-sense laws about _________ ", which means if you argue about it, you're arguing against common sense.

It's how "tax cuts for the wealthy" became "tax relief", how the "inheiritence" tax became the "death" tax, and how "late-term abortion" became "partial-birth abortion".

Banning rifles because they have protruding pistol grips is stupid, yet that's exactly what the now-expired 1993 Assault Weapon Ban did. It defined an "assault weapon" by a combination of cosmetic features.

You could have a pistol grip and a folding stock, but not a bayonet lug. If you want a bayonet lug, you gotta trade in either the pistol grip or the folding stock.

The anti-gun people prey upon the ignorance of the non-gun-owning public, then paint the gun-owning public as bloodthirsty maniacs who masturbate to gun magazines and are itching for a chance to legally kill somebody with their shiny-metal big-penis substitutes.

Wikipedia has good info on the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

[RFKJrNews]

16. The Illinois shooting was a tragedy

And even more unfortunate, our kids on college campuses are perfect targets for nutcases on a shooting spree. Unarmed sitting ducks. Seems like it's been open season on students for more than 15 years, and we still haven't solved the problem.

I agree with Sen. Obama that we need to "improve campus security" but HOW? Unlike high schools, you can't put metal detectors everywhere on a huge open campus. The cost of putting them in every bldg. would be cost-prohibitive.

Can we really put armed campus security guards in EVERY classroom?

Or should we just say that the 2nd Amendment applies to individuals, including students and teachers on campuses...shouldn't they have the right to defend themselves like everybody else?

If we stopped banning concealed handguns on campuses, I have a feeling we'd see a lot fewer school massacres. Criminals tend to pick easy, unarmed prey - which is why you never hear of mass shootings on military bases.

Think about it.

[benEzra]

26. Found this questionnaire he answered for Project Vote Smart in 2004...

http://www.votesmart.org/npat.php?can_id=9490

Indicate which principles you support (if any) concerning gun issues.
X a) Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
X b) Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
c) Maintain state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
d) Ease state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
e) Repeal state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms by law-abiding citizens.
f) Favor allowing citizens to carry concealed firearms.
X g) Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
h) Other

I hope to God he has changed his position. Banning most handguns and the most popular target rifles in America would guarantee a repeat of the 1994 midterm elections.

[Hepburn]

31. Kick for the morning crew!

G'Morning, Everyone! :hi: