Ripples in Time

[H2O Man]

"He talked first about the long American struggle for racial justice. ‘Nations, like men, often march to the beat of different drummers, and the precise solutions of the United States can neither be dictated nor transplanted to others.’ Still, everyone must accept ‘the full human equality of all our people’ and join in ‘a shared determination to wipe away the unnecessary sufferings of our fellow human beings.’ The world’s cruelty, he said, could not be changed ‘by those who cling to a present which is already dying, who prefer the illusion of security to the excitement and danger that comes with even the most peaceful progress.’ For it was ‘a revolutionary world we live in; and thus, as I have said in Latin America and Asia, in Europe and in the United States, it is young people who must take the lead.’

"Let no one, he said in his most eloquent passage, be discouraged by ‘the belief there is nothing one man or one woman can do against the enormous array of the world’s ills – against misery and ignorance, injustice and violence ….. Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation.

" ‘ It is from numberless diverse acts of courage and belief that human history is shaped. Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centres of energy and daring those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.’ "
--Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.; Robert Kennedy and his times; pages 779-780

Perhaps it is no coincidence that, at a time when the two campaigns in the democratic primary take a very different position on our future – "Yes, We Can!" versus "No, You Can’t" – that some of the supporters of the Clinton campaign are again mocking the opinions of the supporters of Obama. Quotes such as "because DU is so relevant" have begun to appear more often. Such attempts to discredit the beliefs of even a single DU Obama supporter are, in my opinion, part and parcel of the "Don’t Get Your Hopes Up" campaign.

The message that Senator Robert Kennedy delivered in South Africa four decades ago is as true today as it was then. The truth is that every DUer who goes out and votes – for either democratic candidate – is taking a meaningful action. They are sending a ripple of energy and hope out.

Every DUer who writes a letter to the editor of their local newspaper, or who expresses their opinion in a phone call or e-mail to C-SPAN or a cable news show, is sending a ripple of energy.

Each time a DUer helps to register a family member, friend, or neighbor to vote, they are taking part in the process of hope that Senator Kennedy described. There is no better example of this energy than the activity taking place in classrooms and dorms across this country, for as RFK said, it must be the young who lead the way to meaningful change.

The sharp contrast between the energetic "Yes, We Can" and the tired "No, You Can’t" is found across the nation, including on this political discussion forum. We have people who recognize the inherent value in each person’s contributing to the ripple of change, and we have people invested in that old-time "bump on a log" mentality that Kennedy noted prefers "the illusion of security."

For years, I have used the example of the airplane found in Ouspensky’s "The Fourth Way" to describe the potential of DUers: A man finds an airplane, and attaches two horses to it, to use it as a carriage; then he learns to use the motor, and uses the plane as a car. Yet that plane has the potential to fly.

DU is, of course, a discussion forum. The forum works very well for the purpose it is intended. But the individual members can use the ideas found here to help send ripples in their neighborhood. After Super Tuesday, I wrote an essay ("Tell the Truth"), which spoke in part about the energy of college students in the primary. There were responses that praised the contributions of young people, and responses that belittled the young folks. I take that information, and use it in my "neighborhood," in communicating to groups of students at the grass roots level. I’m happy to add my own small ripple to that current of democracy.

The "Yes, We Can!" message is one directed to the grass roots. It is not a false promise that encourages citizens to sit back, while some super hero solves all of their problems for them. It is a call to action, and a challenge to all of us to reject the stick-in-the-mud thinking that promotes the "don’t get your hopes up" mind-set. I thank everyone who is answering the call.

[annabanana]

1. I think of DU as a well.

I go back to it over and over to find different approaches to use on different people. .

[H2O Man]

5. I like to think

of it as a pond.

[flor de jasmim]

2. Well said!

[H2O Man]

6. Thank you. n/t

[berni_mccoy]

3. "In the unlikely story that is America... there has never been anything false about hope."

Thank you H2O Man! :kick:

[DemGa]

4. Umm, the "yes, we can" people are telling ME "no, you can't"--

and I'm telling them, "Yes, we Will!"

[H2O Man]

17. There are times

when life imitates the Paul McCartney song "Hello, Goodbye." I can deal with that, as long as there are no skips. But I am far more comfortable in the reality of John's "I Am the Walrus."

[Annces]

7. Power of Ideas

We create the future.

[H2O Man]

16. "What you think,

you become." -- Gandhi

Indeed, we create the future!

[formercia]

8. Well said

I have felt the ripples returning. At first it felt like I was throwing pebbles into a raging sea.

[H2O Man]

9. Yeah. It does.

I like this quote from Mahatma Gandhi:

"You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean. If a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

[rosesaylavee]

10. Help me with this quote...

Have been trying to think of it this morning...

Who said something to the effect that 'Whether you think you can or can't, you're right?'

Thanks for another great essay. I appreciate your contribution here as always.

K & R

[H2O Man]

15. Interesting quote.

I am not familiar with it, but would like to know if others can identify it.

[rosesaylavee]

19. Henry Ford said it...

"Whether You Believe You Can, Or You Can't, You Are Right"

Took me a while to figure out how to google it... but I think it applies very well to our current problems with climate change, peak oil, over-population, a failing economy, dwindling job market, etc. etc. etc.

Do we want to choose leaders who say that the chances of success are dismal or leaders who say that together we will figure this out. I don't know about others, but I am more likely to work on something if there is hope that there can be a liveable resolution. If someone tells me not to get my hopes up but here is all this work to do... that would be very hard for me to get the same level of energy and action to assist. The temptation would be to sit back and see just how successful that attempt was before I spend any time working for a change.

Whoever we choose to lead, we cannot afford to have most of the population sitting back with a wait and see attitude. We need to get galvanized here on a national and global scale pretty quickly if we want the planet to survive and our species to survive.

[H2O Man]

20. "We must change

to master change." -- LBJ

Democracy isn't something that someone else "grants" to you. It is how you live your life.

[rosesaylavee]

23. And a leader is someone

who will inspire action for needed change. We won't get second chances with addressing the problems on our collective plates. We need a leader who can mobilize the country and its individuals to act on the changes needed. Getting individuals to buy into the work that needs to happen is key. Many of us were asleep prior to 2000 and we are the reason that this admin happened. I include myself in that. I thought voting and reading about current events was enough. It is not. Democracy is not something that others do while I can sit back and watch TV. My role is to make my voice known to my representatives and to others in my community. My role is to work for change in my community by writing my representatives, sending and forwarding emails to my email list of news items I don't think are covered adequately by the MSM, participating in my local political scene by supporting candidates who will address issues I think are most important.

Out of the two remaining candidates, there is only one that I think will be able to lead and inspire individuals to take action... especially inspiring younger people who will be most adversely effected by the crises facing us.

[AtomicKitten]

11. There's nothing false about hope and empowering Americans.

In spite of all the efforts of ClintonCo to marginalize and demean Obama's message ...

Thanks for spelling it out so eloquently. ;)

K&R

[Tech 9]

12. "Audacity" is a virtue best practiced in moderation

You should compile all of your mini-essays and title them The Tao Of Bullshit Artistry. A companion piece to equally insipid Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Even by the severely limited standards of inane political commentary, what you write is unbelievable.

Alternately, you've cast Obama as MLK, JFK, Muhammed Ali, and Jesus. You've also bluntly stated that his vacuous talk is the same as that of people who've DIED for their "talk". You further suggest that either he (or Hilary) would somehow curb the unimaginable levels violence conducted in the name of the United States everyday in all parts of the globe (including the Homeland, incidentally). In the most blithering of ironies, you've further asserted that playing within the rules of the primary process counts as election theft if it involves Hilary politicking for super delegates. So you're for "democracy" and "playing by the rules"..until you're against it. Someone might rub two brain cells together and draw a parallel to our beloved Democracy on a larger scale..but, nah.

Now we get the gooey Dennis Kucinich hippy bullshit. "Ripples of energy"? We're all one essence, right? And the collective power of our Hope heals all wounds, yes? You've piqued my intest..tell me more../sarcasm

What you're engaged in is low-brow partisanship. Why try to dress it up with bogus high-brow pretension and overdone allusions that would do any Hollywood hack proud? Barack Obama is about as Messianic as Mr T for God's sake! You can try to mask the fact that he stands on nothing, represents nothing and says nothing but who pray tell is buying your charade? People with their heads planted firmly in the same clouds as yours, maybe.

You peddle syrupy inspirational drivel at a bargain cost. Only it has no fire, spirit, or life. Your hero, Barack Hussein Obama, doesn't even exist. He was invented out of thin air. Just as flimsy are your painful, contrived metaphors and the ballads you exult him with.

How fitting.

[H2O Man]

18. A chihuahua!

Oh, how cute!

[ClericJohnPreston]

27. Try answering

him H20 man....

Man o'Man, you are a complete hoot. I don't even have to pay for this humor. Keep up the comedic writing. It is some of your best stuff yet!

[rosesaylavee]

36. Is that intense looking fellow in your avatar a self-protrait by any chance?

[Whisp]

57. Look, a Terrier!

o, how cute.

H2O man, you are a wise and funny man.
I love how you handle your nonsensical adversaries. masterfully.

:rofl:

[puebloknot]

28. Your rather vicious post here brings back memories of ...

... a "ripple in time" experience I once had while sitting in a theater next to an "old guard" physicist, when I had a vision of my seven-year-old daughter being in trouble. She was a thousand miles away, with my parents, had been in an accident, and was going under an anesthetic when I became agitated and aware that something was wrong. I've always felt that scientific, tech types should shut the fuck up with their slanderous mockery until they can show cause why such an experience *cannot* be attributed to a universal oneness in which we all share. Luckily, a new generation of scientists are working hard to explain said experiences. I hope to live long enough to hear the jury say "Innocent" -- of accusations thrown at people of vision as being scientifically unschooled and merely delusional.

Having begun my post here with a challenge to your manners and the breadth of your wisdom, let me *welcome* you to DU. :sarcasm: It is a place, on paper at least, where a variety of ideas can be exchanged in a civil manner. Perhaps you'll learn something here.

I come here to praise H20man, not to bury him, as one of the most thoughtful writers at DU. I read his every word. I do not accept or agree with his every word. I think his "ripples of energy" METAPHOR is valuable in that it urges ACTION in the world -- letters to the editor, trying to influence our social circles.

At this time, I quite agree with a lot of your assessments about our political situation. I just wish you had been able, or willing, to point out our political conundrum without belittling experiences that, it appears, you have never had and are therefore not qualified to address with anything except denigration. I live in Santa Fe, and sometimes joke that we have to put on hip waders to get through all the New Age rhetoric that abounds in this town. Feeling that there is *some* kind of organizing principle in the Universe, I still have great concerns over the eyes-glazed-over assumptions of a lot of people who feel we can sit in the Lotus position (or on a bench in a church) and pray/visualize peace into being. The other side of that coin, however -- rational dismissal of the whole idea of hope -- seems equally problematical.

I lived in post-war Germany, ten years after the war ended, and saw people living in gardening shacks, wearing threadbare coats, barely eating, but planting gardens with an expectaton of their yielding a harvest in the spring. I was 12 then, but I've never forgotten the audacity of that particular example of hope. I *hope* that America does not have to go down a similar road to awaken from our collective nightmare.

Having put forth an example of my own experience (not belief) of our oneness in this world, let me hasten to say that my greatest concern about both Hillary and Obama is their closeness to the Christian Right. I am willing to cede to anyone their own beliefs, their own experiences, but I want them to follow the biblical injunction to practice those beliefs in the privacy of their closet, not in the halls of Congress. "Faith-based" programs have *no* place in our secular democratic republic, and neither Hillary nor Obama are likely to challenge that now-entrenched scenario.

JFK is seen by most of us -- Progressives, at least -- as one of our finest presidents. I did not agree with his Catholicism, but I liked his political platform.

Dennis Kucinich is someone who has explored many spiritual paths and is forthright about it. I share some views with him, feel some are too "far out" for my taste! But he can do whatever he wishes in the privacy of *his* closet. I like his political platform, and wish there were a snowball's chance in Hell of his ever being heard. His Prayer for America speech is a classic in terms of his outlining a sane plan for restoring our democracy.

I have felt that H20man is making reference to figures from our collective past -- JFK, MLK, Gandhi -- who have inspired us, and we certainly can all agree that we need *something* to move us out of the Slough of Despond into which we have fallen as a nation. I'm old enough to remember MLK's social justice movement, and I would rather it had taken place in a theater than a church, I would rather he had been a college professor than a preacher. His courage, however, still resonates (you know, like ripples of energy)!

[puebloknot]

29. Interesting coincidence!

David Swanson has just posted an article about Dennis Kucinich's Prayer for America!

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/davidswanson/364

[Orwellian_Ghost]

31. It's not just reference

it's comparison and conflation. What is being done here is only mildly sly and it is historically inaccurate and politically dysfunctional.

It serves to prop up the Obama Illusion, and that's all it is, in that it uses sweeping metaphors and gross comparisons that would immediately transfix one and prevent or at least hinder critical thinking skills.

I too think the post deserves an honest response, regardless of tone, but expect none.

As one who responded critically in good faith to one of H2Oman's paeans to Obama and received only a direct insult I cannot respect what is happening here in the least. I think it is quite disingenuous and apposed (?) to the spirirt of dialogue and analysis.

In these times we need substance and straight talk. We are not getting it from either Obama or Hillary. This needs to be challenged not glossed over.

And any and all comparisons between Obama and the oft-cited figures are a complete fraud. He is no such beast and it demeans such figures while exalting someone who is no more than a Corporatist-Centrist Democrat.

Where is Paul Wellstone when we need him? The same Paul Wellstone that Obama held in such low regard.

[ClericJohnPreston]

32. Add

another "contrarian" to the list Orwellian Ghost. I think you know from my posts, we share a kindred spirit. I thought Tech 94 did a brilliant analysis of hack writing meant to obscure critical thought. Apparently, this is one of the prime goals of the Obama campaign, one that leads this critical thinker to reject such fetid manipulation.

Guess we don't bow before the empty speech of barren rhetoric.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

34. I'm simply

trying to get people to look at the issues and the reality of Obama not the illusion.

Example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4636508

You are simply doing what is expected of a citizen and that is diligent inquiry, asking the difficult questions.

Why is that people here complain about a compliant press yet are so easily led to their own conditioned compliance?

Shouldn't we ask our press to ask more than softball personality queries of our political reps? Of course.

And yet we get no more than that from the greater percentage of the Obama supporters. That is not a healthy political process. It is pathological.

Here's to you CJP.

When did people forget that democracy IS NOT about hope-faith-trust but about active participation with a thoughtful, skeptical and critical mind?

[puebloknot]

41. I thought Tech 9 did a brilliant piece of hack writing.

I strongly agree with many of his points. I just think he needs to learn a little respect for the critical thinking of others.

Our choices are terribly limited now. I'm open to solid solutions to our current dilemma. Marching in the streets? Sitting in meditation? Whatever will work.

[puebloknot]

40. I have not assumed that H20man is attempting to conflate...

..Obama's stature with that of MLK, JFK, etc. I do not see him in that light, and I will acknowledge that there seems to be a major movement around him that is lost in adulation rather than demanding straight answers from him.

Obama is not likely to meet the same fate that Paul Wellstone did. Wellstone was speaking truth to power. Obama is speaking .....

[Tech 9]

33. But its not a question of philosophizing

or at least it shouldn't be.

What Dennis Kucinich did (does I guess) is pandering..it happens to be to a group that is both primed for and susceptible to the most outrageous ridiculousness you can imagine, but IT is pandering.

Everyone is going to think what they will and hold fast to their personal beliefs. That's not an issue for me in this case. What IS an issue is when some guy comes along and dresses wispy psuedo-intellectual babble up in mascara and drag and pawns it off as political consciousness and activity.

Sending out positive vibes for Obama are going to effect change? "Believing" in Obama is will somehow reshape the world? Even when you know for a fact that Obama is more part of the problem than any solution??

This guy is a perfectly ordinary Obama flack who slaps a coat of second rate verbiage over his crappy wares. You should know better than to fall for something this transparent. You demean yourself.

[puebloknot]

42. Agreed. Believing in Obama, or Hillary, on a personal level...

...is a fool's mission.

I would like to hear from you what you think We the People can realistically do about our current political situation. Not being sarcastic. Asking sincerely.

[Tech 9]

43. This is from Minister Louis Farrakahn

For the first time in our history, those of us of different ideologies, philosophies, methodologies, denominations, sects, and religions, political and fraternal affiliations have come together to create the Millions More Movement. Each of us, who have agreed to work together for the benefit of the whole of our people, have said from our particular platforms, based on our beliefs and understanding or the lack thereof, words that have offended members of our own people and others; and our ideology, philosophy, religion, and pronouncements may have hurt the ears and sentiments of others outside of our community. Therefore, this has kept us working inside of our own circles with those who think as we think or believe as we believe. As a result, some of us would never appear on the same stage with one another, for fear of being hurt by association with those with whom we have serious disagreements.

The Millions More Movement is challenging all of us to rise above the things that have kept us divided in the past, by focusing us on the agenda of the Millions More Movement to see how all of us, with all of our varied differences, can come together and direct our energy, not at each other, but at the condition of the reality of the suffering of our people, that we might use all of our skills, gifts and talents to create a better world for ourselves, our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren

END QUOTE

The entire letter is worth reading and its worth some time examining the Millions More IMO

http://www.millionsmoremovement.com/news/open_letter.htm

[Usrename]

48. Ok, I'm puzzled.

Why is it that this Farrakhan piece isn't just "vacuous talk," and why shouldn't it be distinguished from "that of people
who've DIED for their "talk"?"

Why isn't Obama an accomplished person, and what is the difference between Obama's rhetoric and what you are trying to
highlight with the Millions More Movement?

To me, this is what a movement looks like:


http://www.pollster.com/USTopzDems.php


IMHO, the movement would be there without Obama, he just ran to the front and is pretending to be leading the parade. But isn't that
how all movements happen? Don't the people have to be ready first? We've all commented that for the last year or two the public
seemed like a herd of nervous horses, ready to stampede at the slightest provocation. Most of us thought that the provocation would
be in the form of some kind of shock doctrine assault launched from the Whitehouse.

If you examine this graph a little, it looks as if Al Gore could easily have been the one to lead this movement, what with his movie
and the concert and everything. He still may be a large factor in the movement, only his presence isn't illustrated in the graph since
they quit polling on him when it became clear he wouldn't run in this race.

I don't recall ever seeing polling data like this. Have you? If there is going to be a movement, and if there is going to be someone
to lead it, who should that someone be? Obama has done some things that I think are inhuman, that's not the question I'm asking.

[Tech 9]

49. "This is what a movement looks like to me"

Really? It is?? Numbers and lines and dots and plots on a page?? Where would you say we're being lead by Dear Leader (oops..thats taken..Exalted Leader)? What do you see your hypothetical movement DOING? You say the public is twitchy -- does that lead to a stampede or a nervous breakdown?

What I hear from Minister Louis is a call for a wide cross-section of the most downtrodden people in the United States to unite together. Not on a religious, ethnic, or race basis; as a CLASS. They are the dispossessed and we are them. We'll show you a 'Shock Doctrine' like you ain't never seen

[Usrename]

51. Brilliant! Genius I tell ya!

How are these downtrodden people in the United States supposed to unite together? I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.

Were the record millions of people in the streets all over the world protesting the imminent invasion of Iraq accomplishing anything? Other than to demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt their own powerlessness?

Is that what a movement looks like to you? A whole lot of people with no power marching in the streets to no effect?

[Tech 9]

52. What's brilliant

is how you've parlayed your toxic blend of cynicism and and fatalism into the conclusion that the only "solution" is to put on a tie and slacks. I salute you sir.

[Usrename]

68. I think I see what your confusion and befuddlement is all about.

If you see something that I've written as offering a solution, what ever it is you are seeing is either a mirage or an hallucination.

[H2O Man]

54. Farrakhan

is a snake-charmer. He runs a program that is similar to Pat Robertson's, although it should be noted that Robertson played no role in the killing of Malcolm X. The guy is a parasite.

[puebloknot]

55. Now, I see.

I've listened to Farrakahn, and there are certainly some things he says that are hard to disagree with. Everyone can step up to the plate and agree that peace and justice are desirable things.

Your use of the term "Shock Doctrine" is offputting. It's an extremely poor choice of words for anyone who claims to want the Brotherhood of Man (and let's not even mention the role of women in that scenario).

[Tech 9]

60. What's offputting

is Naomi Klein's infotainment for liberals

[puebloknot]

62. Naomi Klein's journalism is important reading for anyone...

...with two neurons firing.

Perhaps you're not old enough, or not informed enough to remember what happened in Nazi Germany, and perhaps you don't realize that there are major parallels between that scenario and what is happening in America now.

[Tech 9]

64. If Naomi Klein is important reading

then Barack Obama really is Jesus

Can you honestly read this and not see anything wrong with it?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070702/klein

Is her incomplete, sensationalized, concocted explanation -- which in some cases relies on impressions as much as facts -- is that what you're buying? 9/11 is the root shaper and driver of the Israeli economy today??

Only Naomi's true message is much more subliminal -- nowhere in her narrative do we see those who oppose the devil of capitalism, do we? By her account she and Noam Chomsky are the front lines of "resistance". Do you find that comforting? Do you find that credible? Does anyone?

[Usrename]

69. I really don't understand any of what you're saying here.

To answer your question, I don't see anything all that wrong with that article.

I've also looked at parts of her book (Shock Doctrine) and it seems to me like her observations are pretty straighforward about the "devil of capitalism" and those who have opposed it. I think in every instance she acknowledges that much more social and economic progress is made when capatalism is restrained.

I don't get your point of interjecting this article at all. Are you saying that the US isn't trying to adopt the same apartheid system that's been in effect in Israel? It seems to me like we ARE trying to create a separate sub-species of non-humans who will have no rights at all. Is that all in my imagination? Is all the war profiteering that she notes just an illusion?

I think you need to learn to differentiate better between those people that are offering solutions and those people that are merely making observations or providing an analysis of what is going on.

[robertpaulsen]

67. You need a hug.

:hug:

[Patsy Stone]

13. I will vote on paper in November.

I consider grass roots activism like that found at DU an integral reason for that change. I have heard DUers quoted on the radio as well as in newspapers as large as the LA Times. We have made our voices heard by Congress.

We are powerful, and DU helps us organize and be recognized. For that I will be eternally grateful.

[H2O Man]

21. Yep.

In 2004, I remember reading an article in TIME that mentioned DU.

A surprising number of people read parts of DU.

[Patsy Stone]

65. Which is why

I can't stand to see DU biting its own tail and calling it the enemy.

I also have to remember that great day Helen Thomas recieved the roses from DU. It was a huge task which Helderheid took on and administered beautifully.



There was a thread the other day mentioning someone had seen the photo in a collection of photos Helen was showing to an interviewer.

Times like those make me pleased and proud to be here. Recently, however, those aren't the feelings I associate with DU.

Here's to November! :toast:

[Me.]

14. Yes We Can Is So Energizing

It moves us out of victim-hood and dependence to a point of strength where we are engaged in creating our own destiny.

[H2O Man]

22. Exactly.

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds."
-- Prophet Bob Marley

[Tech 9]

25. I'm sorry but

you sound like someone who just got baked for the first time

[Me.]

37. Pish

Tosh

[rosesaylavee]

38. Well said!

:hi:

[H2O Man]

47. It's funny

that this new group of people are so invested in nay-saying on my threads. I'm reminded of what the Minister Malcolm X said, about when he heard his enemies yelping out loud, he knew that he was saying the right thing.

[windoe]

24. My dream is not armageddon

and I do not encourage anyone from thinking this way. I believe there are many paths to the future, and we have the power to choose which path we take, by what we envision. I believe every individual has a sphere of influence over their destiny that comes into contact with other influences. Together if everyone envisions a harmonious future, our influence can change the world.
Envisioning is not exclusive to dealing with the physical realm, the trick is to envision a possible future and not a far away utopia or perfection, which is not possible here on Earth. Idealists like me have trouble with this.

[ClericJohnPreston]

26. Gee

I must have missed the part where Hillary Clinton is publicly running on a "No We Can't" platform. Can you please direct me to that statement or speech.

Huh?

I don't think you'll find one. That is the essence of your post. Empty rhetoric.

[Tech 9]

35. I bullshit my way through college

with stuff like Waterman writes. Its totally devoid of any real insight or meaning but it sure as shit sells. The embarassing part came when star-struck instructors repeated the crapola I'd passed off on them in their letters of recommendation.

Newsflash Waterman, don't bullshit the bullshitters. We're on to your game and if we shout it loud and long enough your retinue of admirers will part the veil for themselves. I don't think they'll like what's on the other side.

[puebloknot]

39. To cut to the chase with you...

...I am not an Obama supporter, nor am I a Hillary supporter. H20man has posted many valuable posts here, and has only recently decided to declare for Obama. Most of his posts in the past have been of a general nature, and have generated a great deal of respect for him here.

That you may not agree with his current stance is fine. But you do yourself no honor by proudly stating that you're basically a bullshitter, and therefore have the credentials to sniff out the same qualities in someone else.

Sorry. No sale.

[Tech 9]

44. Three items

1. Its not merely his current personal stance; he is implementing a very well-defined and hard-line agenda. Pablum is only the medium he employs, although in the case of Obama pablum is also the message ;)

2. Come on, you can read what I wrote and draw your own conclusions. If what I'm saying is BS, you'll smell it out one way or t'other

3. See my post 43

3a. If as you say in a post above, Waterman is only painting with harmless metaphor and doesn't really "mean it", what then is the thrust of his half-dozen Obama OPs? So Obama isn't really a towering moral authority like Dr. King was. Or the firebrand RFK was. Or the iconic figure Muhammad Ali was. (Leaving Jesus out of this) At that point we're running on empty because he hasn't particularly SAID anything else.

Unless you like to talk about how jockeying for Superdelegates is really election fraud; a neat trick that. Or we could talk about his latest excursion that participation -- in support of Obama, mind you -- empowers us to..do what? Well, we're not so clear on that part. Empowers us to feel better about ourselves at no personal expense? Maybe that's it..

This shit is much more insidious than you seem to think..and someone who makes a series of postings as manipulative and cloying as those of The Waterman needs to be vetted very carefully indeed..

Like a hypnotist, you look deeeeeeeeep into his eyes..abandon all sense of self..absolve yourself of conscious thought or responsibility..follow meeeeeeee

But if you follow you meet only a Watery Grave

(how's that for allusion?)

[ClericJohnPreston]

46. You hit that one

out of the park Tech 9!! It's one thing to fail to use critical thinking and march like lemmings over a cliff, which describes most Obamites, but it is the manipulative voice, with full knowledge of his own cynicism, which deserves the blame.

We're wise to the Waterman whimsical nonsense, full of bloviating conflated speechifying and twisted metaphors. You also are so right about it being pablum. This tripe is so amateur and overtly manipulative, I don't see how anyone except a "true believer" would read this and find any value. It reads like parody.

[Tech 9]

50. Obama is a soft sell

Lets not kid ourselves. Its not only that Waterman is spouting nonsense (sic), its the fact that he is proselytizing for a movement that more than anything encourages people to turn off their brains, shut out reality, and hum in tune with the rest of Adderall drenched masses.

[puebloknot]

58. And your admiration of Farrakahn doesn't fall squarely...

...into that category!!! You have *all* the earmarks of a dedicated true believer. You're a lone carrier of truth, and no one really understands you. And like the noisemakers in the Republican Party, you don't show any indication of wanting to seriously and respectfully discuss ideas. You want to attack.

[Tech 9]

59. The Millions More Movement

was an example. I think that's clear.

[puebloknot]

63. Just as Waterman's reference to MLK was an example!

I think we've enjoyed each other's company long enough.

May we both enjoy the blessings of liberty far into the future!

[Tech 9]

66. Mine was an example of organizing people

His "example" was a de facto attempt to canonize Barack Obama. What is that an example of exactly -- hyperbole?

[Usrename]

70. That's one hell of a good solution, too.

And it's really, really working. Thankfully, social justice has been fully restored as a result of their superior efforts and skills and knowledge.

No worries now, the Millions More Movement has saved the world!

I'm glad we finally have Unity, Spiritual Values, Education, Economic Development, Political Power, Reparations, Prison Industrial Complex, Health, Artistic/Cultural Development, and Peace, so we don't have to worry about any of these things ever again.

What is really going on with you all, and the snarking of Waterman's writings? What is it that you are trying to say? It still isn't clear.

[puebloknot]

56. I never said Waterman doesn't mean it. You don't do nuance, do you? nt

[Tech 9]

61. Figuratively speaking

as in, "He's comparing Obama to Jesus..but not really"

[milkyway]

45. "I don't think we should be giving people false hopes about what we can deliver."

NH debate.

[ClericJohnPreston]

53. AND THAT IS FACT AND REALITY

Not mere empty soon to be unfulfilled elation and fantasy with no COST or effort.

You Obamites in your naivete are truly astounding!

[NastyRiffraff]

30. H2O Man, I've enjoyed your posts

You are articulate, informative, and usually make sense. I have to take issue with some things in this one though. Starting with:

Perhaps it is no coincidence that, at a time when the two campaigns in the democratic primary take a very different position on our future – "Yes, We Can!" versus "No, You Can’t" – that some of the supporters of the Clinton campaign are again mocking the opinions of the supporters of Obama. Quotes such as "because DU is so relevant" have begun to appear more often. Such attempts to discredit the beliefs of even a single DU Obama supporter are, in my opinion, part and parcel of the "Don’t Get Your Hopes Up" campaign.

Where to begin? First of all, any attempt to discredit the beliefs of anyone who supports a candidate...any candidate (except McCain) lacks respect for the fact that people do (surprise!) have different priorities, and see the same people in different ways. That's part of the messy, infuriating, challenging and wonderful thing we call democracy.

And where have you seen "No You Can't" from anyone. Okay, except maybe from a whacked out DU-er making a bad joke? To me, it's a slogan, which is fine. Hillary supporters have taken up "Yes We WILL" and have been accused of "stealing," as if "Yes" and "Will" are copyright Obama campaign.

I'd like more lively discussion (such as your post can, ideally, generate) and less vitrol. There are things to be said for both "sides." This is the most exciting primary I've ever seen, and I've seen quite a few. I love the turnouts we Democrats are getting. I love the fact that young people are getting involved, and yes, Obama can take credit for a lot of that. But whichever way this thing turns out, I hope we can all unite, and put a Democrat in the White House!