Response/Rebuttal to "Seven Reasons for Turning Away From Obama"

[Levgreee]

Since I was called out in that thread, I will make a cohesive response to the 7 points made.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4613479&mesg_id=4613479



I also believe there is a strong lie on the level of research put in, simply because his/her points are so insubstantial, and misinformed. This makes me question her claim that she was once a Obama supporter, and believe this is simply a 'propaganda' post, A Hillary poster disguised as a well-informed undecided voter, to try to sway other undecideds.

"Since then, I've done about 200 hours worth of research on all the candidates and their positions, including the Republicans'."



point 1. his decision to have Donnie McClurkin campaign for him amongst religious constituents in South Carolina, and then defense of that decision in the interests of "unity," because "many voters hold his views." When challenged, he said McClurkin "isn't against gays who are happy being gay!!" This makes me question his commitment to civil rights. I am a straight woman, with lots of gay students and clients, and this is not a fuzzy issue to me. You either defend everyone's civil rights, or you don't.

fallacy 1: No quote is given for Obama saying "isn't against gays who are happy being gay!!". Vague paraphrases, in place of actual quotes, is very unacademic, and shows that this is just personal opinion rather than justified facts.

fallacy 2: You either defend everyone's civil rights, or you don't.
Obama does defend everyone's civil rights.
1. at the same event as McClurkin, Obama has added an openly gay minister <5>
2. He had been very outspoken, speaking DIRECTLY to the church, that their views are wrong, and they should change, and embrace gays.<4> Allowing someone to attend an event, doesn't mean you agree with them. LadyVT simply has an opinion, that, "if you accept someones support, let them go to your event, you agree with them, or support their view somewhat."
3.Obama DOES take a strong stance on gay rights.

Barack Obama in the United States Senate: Every two years the Human Rights Campaign, the largest national gay and lesbian organization, issues a scorecard for members of the Senate based on their sponsorship and voting on key issues of importance to gay and lesbian citizens. Barack Obama scored 89 out of 100% in the 2006 scorecard.

Employment Non-Discrimination: Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes it should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Gays in the Military: Barack Obama believes we need to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. His campaign literature says, "The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve."

Barack Obama on Hate Crimes: Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Barack Obama and Gay Marriage/ Civil Unions: Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples, as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized. <1>






There seems to be one possible issue here, that he only believes in Civil unions, not marriage. But Hillary is the same in this regards.

"During her husband's administration, she supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a law preventing the federal recognition of same-sex marriage.
"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News."<2>



She also has not come out saying she strongly supports gay marriage. Her opinion is the same as Obama's, that the states should decide.


Hillary's position: "Let states decide gay marriage; they're ahead of feds. (Aug 2007)"<3>


<1>http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/02/11/barack-obamas-track-record-on-gay-issues/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gaysofla.com%2Fcontent%2Fview%2F215%2F65%2F&frame=true
<2>http://outfordemocracy.org/arch/000583.html
<3>http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Hillary_Clinton.htm
<4>http://religion.gaynewsblog.net/2008/01/obama-speaks-out-on-gay-rights.html
<5>http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/gay_rights_group_criticizes_ob.html
<6>http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/darby1.html







Topic 2: His commitment to increase the military by 100,000 soldiers, and to raise the military budget well beyond where it is now (which is IMHO too high, given the $78,000 which is each citizen's share tonight of the national debt).


fallacy 1: Each person's share is about 30 thousand<7>, not 78k., and Obama also has blasted this level of debt. How could someone who does 200 hours of research be off by 48k, for this figure? This is why sources are nice.

fallacy 2: Wants to raise the military budget "well beyond". Here is his plan when it comes to increasing the military.

Expand the Military: We have learned from Iraq that our military needs more men and women in uniform to reduce the strain on our active force. Obama will increase the size of ground forces, adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines.


New Capabilities: Obama will give our troops new equipment, armor, training, and skills like language training. He will also strengthen our civilian capacity, so that our civilian agencies have the critical skills and equipment they need to integrate their efforts with our military.

Strengthen Guard and Reserve: Obama will restore the readiness of the National Guard and Reserves. He will permit them adequate time to train and rest between deployments, and provide the National Guard with the equipment they need for foreign and domestic emergencies. He will also give the Guard a seat at the table by making the Chief of the National Guard a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy/#21st-century-military

These are moderate expansions of the military, so I do not see how it would increase the military budget "well beyond". But, if you bash Obama for this, you also have to bash Clinton.

"She has also gotten behind the idea of increasing the size of U.S. forces: "I have joined other Democrats and Republicans in proposing that we expand the Army by 80,000 troops, that we move faster to expand the Special Forces, and do a better job of training and equipping the National Guard and Reserves."

None of these front-running candidates has identified the short- or long-term costs of adding troops, where the money would come from, or -- perhaps most importantly -- the missions these troops would be engaged in once the Democratic leadership succeeds in "bringing them home."" <7>


<6>http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
<7>http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4465



This took me an hour to collect all this information... I may or may not move on to some of the remaining 5 depending on if anyone actually listens to these, for one, but for now I have a lot of homework to do.

[babylonsister]

1. Don't you mean 'not' turning away? nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Where'd you get all those hearts?

:evilgrin:

[babylonsister]

3. Darned if I know!

:blush: :hi:

[Levgreee]

4. I was surprised I even got one!

I'm still pretty new here...

[babylonsister]

5. Hi! Is your title on this thread reflecting what you want to say?

I find it confusing since you're trying to counter a previous thread. :shrug:

[Levgreee]

6. RE: means reply, I was replying to that thread... although i suppose I didn't specify in what way

[babylonsister]

7. You can edit it still if an hour hasn't passed. nt

[Flabbergasted]

That other thread was near complete fluff.

Only a couple of her points have any real substance. When you hold them up to Clinton's record and add a dash of reality Obama is the clear vote for progressives.

[TheDonkey]

8. Good job. I wish other Obama haters would actually try to research before they try spewing vile

Would make GDP a much more peaceful place.

[Levgreee]

9. bump