Sorry for Saying' So, But ...

[NanceGreggs]

I am not a cultist. I enthusiastically support the candidate of my choice. I do not think of him as a rock star. I was drawn to his campaign due to his vision, not his charisma, and while I admire his ability to articulate his dreams for this country, I have never even come close to fainting at the sound of his voice.

I am not a victim of the MSM. The media did not choose my preferred candidate, I chose him. If the media loves him, hates him, or is totally indifferent to him, it is of no consequence to me.

I am not an ill-informed idiot who doesn’t see the writing on the wall, doesn’t get the Big Picture, doesn’t understand what’s going on here. I made my choice based on my own criteria as opposed to anyone else’s, and I defer to no one else’s opinion, as I am totally capable of forming an opinion of my own.

I am not blinded by infatuation; I have my eyes open at all times, and I am not an idolizing groupie incapable of seeing any fault or flaw. My choice of candidate is – as are both candidates – a flawed human being who has made mistakes in the past, and will no doubt make mistakes in future. I would only be blind if I thought otherwise.

I am not open to persuasion by anyone who speaks to me as though I were an especially dense five-year-old, and I am not about to be bullied into changing my mind by someone who thinks that name-calling, innuendo and/or right-wing talking points IN CAPS makes their choice more attractive than mine.

Last time I looked, I, as an American citizen, had the right to my own opinion.

Last time I looked, I, as a Democrat, had the right to express that opinion without insult or belittlement by my fellow Democrats.

I guess the last time I looked was a long time ago.

[saltpoint]

1. In-fuckin'-DEED.

Excuse my dialectic transgression, but these are lean times.

Ms. Greggs speaks for me, only she does it a lot more diplomatically.

[JeffR]

20. I reckon that's the first time I've ever seen you deploy that word

and you know, you wield it with the same reasoned force you use with other words.

One of my favorite anecdotes about the word is an apocryphal story about Dr. Johnson where he was asked, "Sir, what is the greatest pleasure in life?" He purportedly answered, "The greatest pleasure in life, sir? Why, fucking."

Way off topic. Just meant to say you write even quick responses with style and urbanity. You really are a treasure, Old Crusoe.

[saltpoint]

27. JeffR, I am HOWLING at the Johnson quotation.

Unbelievable!

It's late and I might not ordinarily have used that word, but I was raised by uncles and greatuncles who were dedicated vulgarians and could turn the air blue with their speech. You've never heard a lawn mower fully assessed until my Grandfather assessed it with some of the most blistering desriptions known to man. Had the manufacturer been around when my grandfather was working on that lawnmower, I assure you that upon hearing grandpa's commentary on his machine, he would have blown his brains out on the spot.

Once in a while the little kid I was back in that garage and machine shop slips out in my DU speech. Generally I try to behave myself. But there's plenty of room for improvement!

Very good to see you, JeffR. Peace to ya.

[JeffR]

30. We should all behave so well.

Good to let the little kid out now and then. For most of us, certainly for me, the problem is keeping the kid from commandeering the keyboard entirely for extended periods of posting time.

[saltpoint]

33. I understand, but at the same time, the more you personally offer for

these boards, the better the boards are for the rest of us, the better the experience.

You rock, dammit.

[JeffR]

37. I'm cool with that

;-)

[Hart2008]

94. Dad always said there was a special place in hell for the engineers who designed lawnmowers.

The simple act of changing the oil is frequently a knuckle-busting ordeal, let alone a more involved repair, like when the starting cord snaps...

:argh:

Dad was always more reserved but my grandfather was incapable of fixing anything until, as he said, he found the right cuss words.

:evilgrin:

[Window]

101. Hi JeffR.

I love it!

"One of my favorite anecdotes about the word is an apocryphal story about Dr. Johnson where he was asked, "Sir, what is the greatest pleasure in life?" He purportedly answered, "The greatest pleasure in life, sir? Why, fucking."


Peace:thumbsup:

[Mme. Defarge]

161. Moi aussi!

[jmondine]

238. You're an Australian?

[Recursion]

184. I like Johnson's quote when he was caught with his fly down

A prudish London woman exclaimed, "Why, Doctor Johnson, for shame! Your... member... is sticking out of your trousers!"

He replied, "Madame, do not flatter yourself. It is hanging."

[Vattel]

209. I also like Churchill's

response to getting a note from a member of Parliament that his fly was open: Don't worry, a dead bird never leaves the nest.

[bagrman]

224. Thats good.

[graywarrior]

2. Exactly!

Thank you.

[TexasObserver]

3. Solid.

[Yael]

4. Off to the greatest with ye!

[stillcool]

5. Perfecto!!

[bridgit]

6. Makes sense to me

[grantcart]

7. Now that's fired up and ready to go.

[Terry_M]

8. You missed one.

Apparently people support Obama just because they're rich these days too.

[ellisonz]

91. Or African-American, or "latte drinkers."

;-)

[TomInTib]

9. Oh, Nance...

You have did it now.

Peed in the chili...

I just hope that the tongs are room temperature.

[Binka]

78. Oops peed in it too! Love you Nance! n/t

[roguevalley]

175. thank you, Nance. I feel old school dems aren't in good standing

anymore, the live and let live, you support yours and I'll support mine types. Hugs. By the way, HI BINKA!

[Obamaman2008]

10. Well Said, and Thank You! nt

[kentuck]

11. It is rather insulting sometimes...

I would like to see both sides turn the heat down just a notch or two until we can get a better feel for where we are headed.

[Ishoutandscream2]

252. Amen. It has actually worn me down

and has given me a sense of dread. All along, I thought we were much better than that. Maybe I'm just too damned naive.

[nomorewhopper]

12. pfft speak for yourself. i'm in it for the KOOLAID.

[WillyT]

13. And A Big K & R !!!

Perfect.

:yourock:

[InsultComicDog]

14. well technically

Last time I looked, I, as a Democrat, had the right to express that opinion without insult or belittlement by my fellow Democrats.

I certainly don't think anyone *should* insult or belittle you or anyone else for expressing an opinion, but I'm not sure that any of us have a "right" not to have someone offend us.

[Skittles]

21. THANK YOU

WTF IS WRONG WITH THIS PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WillyT]

22. Oh... You Just Wanna Kick Somebody's Ass !!!

Wassa matta? Seems like a target rich envirnment?

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[Skittles]

25. YES!!!!!!

I see no real facts anymore - HRC and Obama are either ALL GOOD or ALL BAD - and people whine and whine about how their choice is PERCEIVED - GET OVER YOURSELVES ALREADY

[tavalon]

152. Right

I stopped seeing anything of substance in this area even before my candidate left the stage. This is just mudslinging and folks, remember, after the primary, we have to clean up all this shit and stop acting like two year olds. That's the purview of the other folks, we are the adults. A few of us might consider practicing early.

[bagrman]

226. You have the Old School and the New School taking jabs at each other.

[Seabiscuit]

68. Actually, we do have legal rights that protect us from nuisances.

[InsultComicDog]

111. Depends on the type of nuisance

>>the right to express that opinion without insult or belittlement by my fellow Democrats<<

is not one that we legally have.

[bagrman]

225. Those two idiots are going to kiss before this is over.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

15. Very well said Nance.

Thank you for throwing light into the oft-times darkened GD-P.

[BeyondGeography]

16. It's still too early for you to see how you've been lured into the movement

all of us are suffering from this first stage of cultist behavior.

Give it time. The pitfalls to recovery are many, but, with help, you will one day be free again.

Hopefully, no sooner than 2016.

[ellisonz]

92. If you hope it, they will come.

One day at a time. One moment at a time

:rofl:

[Major Hogwash]

17. That Krugman crap about cultists really tarnished his rep, in my opinion.

He might as well have put on a dunce hat and stuck his tongue out at us.
Maybe he has a picture of him doing just that, waiting in the wings.

[mrbluto]

114. Switcheroo!

Don't you even wonder why a guy you probably would have cheered for six months ago would say such a thing?

Did he have an aneurysm or something?

Or maybe he has some good reasons? Perhaps wrong, but reasonably assembled.

Is this when you put a dunce cap on the guy and forget all about him and all the voters that trust his judgment, or do you wonder why he thinks the way he does?

Perhaps it's less effort to - hmmm...how do I say this...um... - just stick to the dogma?

[Major Hogwash]

185. He's fucked himself. He won't be able to support Obama in the fall during the general election.

Because if he started writing positive things about Obama, he'd be a hypocrite - and the right-wing would point that out in a heartbeat.

Krugman spent all of the credibility he ever had backing the wrong horse.

[ldf]

230. we've ALL backed a wrong horse.

so what. it doesn't mean we can't pull together once it is settled.

neither of these horses tend to inspire much. they are BOTH the wrong horse. THAT is the situation we find ourselves in.

the vitriol that is flying from both sides makes one wonder if we have it in us to come together afterwards. as usual, the democratic party seems to have a great knack for pulling defeat out of victory. i just don't see that guaranteed, surefire, no way in hell we CAN'T lose, victory that everyone else is so sure of.

i promise to do my part, but only if i'm allowed to hold my nose.

and yes, holding my nose is the only way i'm going to be able to walk into the voting booth.

and i still believe that this election will only answer one question. okay, TWO questions.

first, who are there more of? racists, or clinton haters. i think regardless of the nominee, the republicans are happy with either one...

second, if the nominee of choice doesn't get the nod, will the supporters sit at home whining about the chance at making history being taken from them?

okay, okay, a THIRD question. why am i always so pessimistic? is it because i have absolutely no confidence in the american voter, given the last two elections?

we'll see.

[mrbluto]

249. Um....not necessarily; He could change his mind.

A changed opinion doesn't mean one is a hypocrite.

If only 10% of people had an attitude like yours there'd be little use in discussing anything.

Oh. wait. Did I write that out loud?

I'm in a forum on DU, the primary thread.

Never mind.

You just go on like you were, dismissing the possibility that someone you disagree with might have anything useful to say.

[Danger Mouse]

18. I've been fighting against the cult garbage from day one.

It REALLY pisses me off...since it's usually packaged with smears against younger voters like myself.
I hate it...marginalize us because we're young...
this was a damn good post, Nance, thanks for speaking out.

[MadBadger]

19. Nobody on DU could say it better.

Thank you for saying what we all feel.

[tammywammy]

23. Exactly.

Recommended. :)

[Tatiana]

24. So you're a misogynist, then?

:rofl:

I know, I know. Sometimes we have to laugh to keep from crying. Hopefully things will get better. We're really losing sight of what we're fighting for.

RECOMMENDED.

[Danger Mouse]

26. seems like we're more cocnerned with tearing each other apart...

than anyone else...

[TomInTib]

28. Will you ever learn to fucking spell?

And just what the hell do you mean about "tearing each other apart"?


I am 100% behind you, Elrond...

This shit has got to stop.

Tom

[Danger Mouse]

29. sorry about the spelling...it was a typo...

unless, of course, you're kidding...
sorry, not picking up on the sarcasm too quickly tonight.

[TomInTib]

31. I was fcukning kidding.

But I am with you all the way.

I will be so glad when all of these wounds heal.

It just blows me away that so many like-minded people can be so mean and un-caring about the Greater Goal.

Tom

[Danger Mouse]

34. It's been pretty discouraging.

And it's sad...it'll be tough for me to look at a lot of these fellow DUer's the same way as before...I can forgive their hurtful words, but I won't forget either.

[Tatiana]

41. I know what you mean. A lot of posters of late have been eye-openers for me.

This is politics and people are taking things way too personally, IMO.

[Danger Mouse]

47. Yes. When all supporters of a candidate are smeared with personal attacks...

it doesn't make any of us look good.

[Binka]

81. I've Got Many Long Time DUers On Ignore And I Am Not Taking Them Off

The 1000+ wonders in 2 weeks are just trolls but the long timers really bother me. Yet, I am not going to un ignore them when the GE is over. They are history to me. Finito! WAY too much work to be done without their bullshit.

[ekwhite]

129. So far I'm just ignoring the trolls.

The ignore function is annoying, though. It takes you away from the thread you were browsing to fill out the ignore form.

[Danger Mouse]

156. I agree that there are some people on the boards who have been far too hurtful and nasty...

for me to want to un-ignore them. :(

[trthnd4jstc]

193. Dear Friend, Politcs is Personal.

It is why we are involved. We would be like the other half of America who don't vote, hate the government, but don't do a damn thing about it. We take politics personally because we know how this is affecting our lives, and the future. I am quite happy to be a Democrat at this time. I think the Democratic Party is in better shape, and less corrupt than it used to be 25 years ago. I will admit to most of the facts in my life, yet I do not deserve to be beaten over the head, neither do you, nor anyone else. I admit I am playing hardball against the Republicans, then again they have been playing hardball since day one. For some reason, Democrats are not playing hardball enough, though approximately a 1/2 to 2/3 of the House, and Senate generally are serving our interests most of the time. This is based on my anecdotal observation observing how the Democrats in the Legislature are voting.

[bagrman]

227. Lets call it tearing off the blinders.

[ShortnFiery]

32. I'm pleased that you're also for Obama.

I enjoy reading your journal.

:-) :hi:

[NanceGreggs]

36. Just ornery tonight ...

... and fightin' like a girl!

:hi:

[TomInTib]

38. Ornery, tonight?

And tomorrow you're gonna be OK?

No wonder I am always in Trouble.

Damn, you would figure that, at my age, I would have at least sussed out that part.

[ShortnFiery]

44. You also know me too well!

<looking down and shuffling my feet> :blush: ;) :hi:

[Laurab]

35. Nailed it! n/t

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NanceGreggs]

45. I didn't realize that honouring ...

... someone I admire by using their image in an avatar somehow entailed the assumption of certain responsibilities, or was akin to proclaiming a perceived equality with their talents and skills.

But that's just me ...

[Binka]

82. Nance Molly Would Be So Proud If She Knew Her Kind Face Was Your Avatar

Ernesto is a very confused person. You just rock on woman. ROCK. ON.

[trusty elf]

77. Hey pal, if anyone is "up to the task"

it's NanceGreggs, one of the most perceptive, articulate, creative and funny spirits posting here.

What a dumb thing to say!

[Emit]

84. How rude you are.

That was just really rude.

[Binka]

90. Some People Have No Class

Witness this. Hi baby:loveya:

[Emit]

140. LOL!

Binka! :rofl:

[blogslut]

40. Thank you, Nance

:hi:

[catnhatnh]

42. So I'll put you down....

...as "undecided", right?

[NanceGreggs]

46. Hey, I'm just another ol' fence-sitter ...

... from way back when.

:hi:

[Imagevision]

228. Hey, I'm just another ol' fence-sitter? - yup, McCain, Hillary & Obama, yep... it can be a tough one

Ms. Greggs another (as usual) excellant post thank you...

[Baby Snooks]

43. What I like best about Obama...

He doesn't remind of us where we have been. Only where we can go from here.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

50. I think I have a new hero. What a Warrior you are, trolling DU. Are you getting aroused,

thinking about how you'll tell all two of your friends how you "invaded" DU tonight, and taught all us Liberals a lesson?

Redstone

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Redstone]

56. This just in: You = troll. And a particularly pathetic one.

But fun anyway.

Redstone

[Danger Mouse]

57. this just in....

'i'd rather have four more years of Laura than Michelle Obama'
'Barack Hussein Obama'
'sexist obama supporting freak'
=
pretty likely a repub troll.

[Buve]

104. yep..

for supporting my canidate i've already been accused of being a warmonger and not liberal enough..

i know how you feel

[Binka]

85. Wow A New And Shiny DU Fur Friend

How Special! What was that sound? Oh wait... Pizza man is coming....

[Danger Mouse]

51. not satisfied with ruining one thread, you come to another, troll?

:hi:

[Tatiana]

52. Welcome to DU and enjoy your stay.

:hi:

[Danger Mouse]

54. ...likely short, as it were...

[Redstone]

63. I think it's gone. Mom must have chased it out of the baasement and sent it to bed.

Redstone

[Inchworm]

49. Bingo

:applause:

[bjobotts]

55. You must be a human being capable of seeing other human beings

as human. There are many of us here. We've become accustomed to being masked by the net and some I would not want to see unmasked face to face if they are as I have imagined them to be by their comments. Necessity is the mother of involvement not just invention. I want to save our democracy before it is gone and so do my candidates and their supporters.

Great post as always. The fire is burning and it doesn't take much to see it is out of control and extinguishing it should be our common focus. That's what our candidates want to do also. It comes with a sense of urgency that makes some panic and start screaming. But the human beings protect each other and respect each others efforts. Welcome Human beings.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

60. Having fun in your Mom's basement tonight?

Must be hell at your age...

[Redstone]

61. Lotta pimples to pop, after all...that's why he's up so late.

Redstone

[mrbluto]

170. Having fun with that tired line of pointless attack?

Must be hell damn fun with your kind of limited mentality...

[HCE SuiGeneris]

178. Perhaps you should read every post this poser made, like I did,

before jumping on me... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=search_advanced&select_forum=389&search_archives=yes

Now, piss off!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

181. BTW

a-hole. You are defending a non-DU'er. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=215085

[mrbluto]

220. OMG - how dare I?

Let's string all the furi'ners up! Yee-haw!

That what I should be saying?

[GMFORD]

75. Troll

= you.

[Trajan]

58. But then you came to DU ....

And all that stuff didnt apply anymore .... Because DU is yet another bastion of the anonymously rude internet forum, which human beings tend to utilize as an outlet for their repressed anger ....

I never thought in my wildest dreams I would prefer the ugly interchanges at family holiday dinners to interactions with 'like-minded liberal-progressive-Democrats' at DU ....

I guess I prefer neither ....

[Blue_In_AK]

62. Very nice, Nance...

:thumbsup:

[mculator]

64. Brainwashed counts as victimized.

And you just might be, but you wouldn't know.

[Redstone]

65. But you, of course, WOULD know. Thank you for gracing us with your superiority.

Redstone

[Danger Mouse]

66. excuse me? brainwashed?

take that RW garbage elsewhere.
:puke:

[NanceGreggs]

69. Yeah, that's it all right, brainwashed ...

... because anyone who doesn't see things your way is, of course, brainwashed.

Why, oh why, did I not defer to your opinion from the very beginning? Why did I delude myself into thinking I could think for myself?

I feel like such a fool ...

[Baby Snooks]

72. Brain"washing"

Brain"washing" can be many things. For some, it is merely cleaning out the cobwebs of the past. And looking to the future. With a clear, and clean, mind. Nance may be brain"washed" but she has a nice squeeky clean brain as a result.

[mculator]

73. Sorry

Hillary got me with policies not methodical preacher cadences wrapped into political speeches.


Oh, he got you?

Your bad!

[Danger Mouse]

74. how shameful of you to be so disrespectful to someone.

you sicken me. :puke:

[mrbluto]

116. Shameful. Shameful?

What is your damage?

This isn't an encounter group.

Do think for a minute that Twain, or Will Rodgers would spare the delicate feelings of any reasoning adult who willingly chose to enter a political discussion?

Using the weird loaded psycho-babble of "shame" in the midst of an open political discussion is shameful.

I don't believe you actually want to advance this discussion in any useful direction.

I think you're just taking self-congratulatory pot-shots at people who are.

I bet even people from the group mculator sniped at would agree with me on those two points.

[Danger Mouse]

155. The guys post was insultingly idiotic.

That clown isn't interested in advancing the discussion in the least. He's interested in INSULTING Nance and all Obama supporters by calling them 'brainwashed.' Please explain to me how that is 'advancing' anything.

[Binka]

88. It Is Way Past Your Bed Time Dear 6 Year Olds Should Be Asleep By Now

Nighty night.

[corkhead]

98. another newbie without a profile added to my ignore list. BEGONE!

go back to LGF where you belong

[Tatiana]

70. Ah yes! The abused victim syndrome.

How could one female not vote to elect another female as President, lest she be entangled in a web of self-hatred and brainwashed victimization. 'Twas an evil man that done the brainwashing, yes indeed.

Did I get that about right?

[Arugula Latte]

183. A-freakin'-men, Nance!

:applause:

[donheld]

67. Yes.

:yourock:

[psychopomp]

71. I do not idolize Sen. Obama

and I believe the Obama campaign is a chance for us, the citizens, to signal that we want a new direction in American politics.

[housewolf]

76. Thanks for speaking out for me, too

I proudly and gratefully associate myself with your words.

Big THANKS!!!!

:toast:

[intaglio]

79. Thank you, Nance

Mind you the CAPS thing is useful - you can hit ignore without bothering to read the scrawl

[puebloknot]

80. You have made a very strong *personal* statement here...

...and I assume your doing so in this public forum invites open dialogue!

I would like to be able to embrace your assertion that the media did not choose your preferred candidate. Later in the game, I have no doubt that you weighed the various strengths and weaknesses of all the available candidates, and decided to support the one who seems most desirable to you -- as we all did, or are in the process of doing.

I am remembering the first Democratic debates, going back several weeks/months now. There were, what, eight candidates? Starting then, and continuing with all the debates that were subsequently held, Hillary, Obama, and Edwards were prominently featured in the center of the stage, and Kucinich, Richardson, Dodd, Biden, Gravel...did I miss anyone?...were consigned to the sidelines.

There is no arguing against the fact (unless one just wishes to argue) that most of the attention was directed to the main three, and Kucinich and Gravel had to fight to get a word in. Richardson was often allowed to hold forth long past his allotted time, but Dodd and Biden were also given less time to speak. At that beginning level, democratic principle should have allowed for We the People to hear *all* the candidates equally, so that we could weigh our choices. That was never the case. The MSM and the money interests that control them made that choice for us -- or more accurately, *against* us.

Most recently, of course, we tuned in expecting to hear a three-way debate between Obama, Edwards, and Hillary, but we were allowed to hear only Obama and Hillary. John Edwards was assuring us all, right up until the midnight hour the day before, practically, that he in the race for the long haul, and he had the money to stay in. There has been no satisfactory explanation of that -- nothing that satisfies me, anyway.

MSM have shamelessly focused on the campaigns with the money. And going all the way back to Selection 2000, they have focused on that which their corporate masters have wished to have aired. With a few exceptions, like Olbermann, Maher, and Moyers (who are not featured on other than cable stations, and are therefore not as mainstream as, say, CNN), our "news" has been carefully parceled out to us to keep us all distracted from what is really going on in the country.

I think we are *all* victims of MSM -- except that most of us here at DU have taken advantage of alternate sources of information to avoid such victimization. Nevertheless, I think the respective shows being put on by our two Democratic candidates now, and featured in MSM, are carefully orchestrated presentations which avoid like the plague the *real* substantive issues that they should be speaking to -- if this were truly a democracy and if we truly had open elections. And none of us can claim, unless we have a personal relationship with either of the candidates, that we are completely free of influence by the MSM.

The capability of forming intelligent opinions does not guarantee that any of us have the necessary input to actually do it. We do our best, and we hope for a good outcome, but freedom of the press went out with the ascension of GWB, and was perhaps more of an illusion than we like to think long before that.

You're right, of course: As American citizens, we all have the right to our own opinions.

[ekwhite]

130. Good post, but I believe you miss Nancy's point

I read her post as saying that the MSM did decide who she decided to support, not who was running. You are absolutely correct about the media's treatment of the other candidates. I have had to switch candidates twice so far - from Kucinich to Edwards, then from Edwards to Obama. If Clinton prevails in the primaries, I will have to switch candidates one more time.

[puebloknot]

187. Thanks, but I think I understood very well what she wrote:

"I am not a victim of the MSM. The media did not choose my preferred candidate, I chose him."

Like you, I went from Kucinich to Edwards. The media was *very* influential, very much in control, of who ended up as our final two!

[VotesForWomen]

83. good for you. doesn't change the overall validity of the cult/rock star aspect of O's candidacy. nt

[Binka]

89. Don't Quit Your Job Your Comedy Routine Sucks Honey

Peddle Peddle Peddle you are doing just great baby....

[Cha]

247. That's right...you're so

brainwashed that nothing is gonna get through except the mantra.

[my3boyz]

86. Awesome! Thanks for sharing this

:yourock:

[Sapphocrat]

87. So if the shoe DOESN'T fit...

...why do you feel the need to defend yourself against something that doesn't apply to you?

Seriously. If your conscience is clear, what do you care what anyone says?

And why do you feel the need to distance yourself from those who might be manifesting the characteristics that give others pause?

[Binka]

93. Whoa I Respect & Love You But I Do Not Get This

Not understanding S Crat. Anger at Nance? What am I missing?

[Sapphocrat]

95. Not a trace of anger, Binka.

I just don't understand why Nance -- who has the biggest following on DU since Pitt His Ol' Bad Self -- would give a high flying hoot what anybody thinks, or feel the need to defend herself, or distance herself from a faction of off-da-hook Obama supporters who are making the whole movement look like... uh... look not so on-da-hook.

[NanceGreggs]

203. No, I think you've misread my intentions, Sapphocat ...

... or perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been in my OP.

I wrote this because I have had my fill of reading post after post about how anyone who supports this man's candidacy is a brainwashed "cultist" who has been manipulated by the MSM, and apparently doesn't understand that he is not a viable candidate for the presidency.

Maybe it's just me, but I would never dismiss someone else's preference for Hillary, Edwards, Biden, etc., as being ill-informed, outright dumb, or that their choice is based on some foolish criteria that has no place in the political process.

People prefer one candidate over another for a myriad of reasons, and I believe we should respect each other's choices, and work from the assumption that if someone has made such a choice, it is based on sound reasoning - and not automatically assume that they have obviously been 'brainwashed' into their decision.

[BigBearJohn]

109. self delete

[GoldieAZ49]

96. Thank you. Freedom of choice, without ridicule, what a concept.

I liked what Michelle said about her husband, he makes mistakes, like we all do, he is able to admit a mistake and correct it - unlike some politicians.

[corkhead]

97. I watched SiCKO last night. It should be required viewing for all DUers

A healthy, educated, and confident electorate wouldn't allow us to be where we are today.

There are a lot of folks here that have forgotten that choosing our representatives is much more than a silly sporting event.

Thanks for another great post.

[greiner3]

99. Great post Nance;

And those are some of the reasons I am supporting Kucinich also!

On a serious note, I just mailed in my absentee ballot for Ohio's primary. It was plainly noted in the package from the county's election board that if I, or anyone else, was stupid enough to vote for Kucinich, that vote would not count because Dennis had formally withdrawn from the race. Obama was my second choice.

[Window]

100. A breath of fresh air in GD-P!

Thank you NanceGreggs!!!!



Peace:thumbsup:

[Guava Jelly]

102. You did it the smart way.

I had to drink the koolaide :sarcasm:
Great read
I enjoy your writing.

[Royce]

103. an interested conservative

Before i get into this, I will say I do respect all of the views as what you have said. That said, i'd hope you will apply those ideals across the isle to a conservative who feels the same about my party and choice of candidate. I will make an assumption and guess you're talking about Obama. If not for the media hype, and not drawn to his charisma then what else is there. I've seen his speeches, and as a republican I respect him in regards to his command over a crowd and his power of speech. I understand the importance and validity the skill of speaking is for a politician. Yet, that is as far as it goes. To me, that's all there is to him. He has a pretty sly history in dodging votes. Especially when it comes to Iran and Iraq, like the Iraq withdrawal amendment. His voting record in terms of Budget, spending and tax is appalling for out of 63 votes he voted "No Vote" to 29, i believe thats 46%. With that in mind, I wonder how anyone backs him. He's only gone a few years with a junior seat in senate, in which he decides not to vote for a lot of issues. Yet, given the nature of politicians you're willing to trust what he says now; with no past history of proof. It's not that I don't respect or like the man, my issues would be that I don't have enough information to feel comfortable in electing him to run the most powerful and influential country in the world. That wasn't meant to be a conservative imperialist comment. I'm just trying to put a realistic scope onto the seat of President of the United States, which some but not all forget. I would personally love a response from NanceGreggs, not out of argument, I'm just interested to find out what she (or the democrats) see in him...if not for the media hype and his powerful speeches.

[Buve]

105. this viewpoint

this realism veiwpoint is not welcome here... the DU crowd prefers cult gatherings and soaring oratory...

ok now i'm being a right bastard...



Seriously, they think he's just a tad bit left of center instead of full fleged left of left... MSM has them seing sparkles with this one.

[Royce]

106. that viewpoint

I don't know that I fully understand what you said. Most of us conservatives see Obama far more left that say, Hillary. I would say too that Obama owes his success to the fact he can speak. I mean, it is his "soaring oratory" that has gotten him this far. He hasn't really gotten his feet all that wet in washington and now he plans to jump into the Oval Office.

[Buve]

107. yes

the main stream media (MSM) and the democratic party doesn't realize that Obama is a left of left democrat. They have been told a myth and believe that he will win "purple" states because "he wins in red states." Of course the MSM doesn't point out that no (R)'s are running in any of these races. The numbers say 56% of the voters in the democratic caucuses have a degree while 1/6 of the democratic party does.

They think they are voting for some centrist who is going to "sweep the red states". My what a surprise they are in for when a senator with a 30 year centrist record starts hitting thier guy.


IMO we need Hillary.

[Royce]

108. Thank you for clarifying

I wasn't familiar with "MSM" but thank you now. I agree with you that your party may need hilary, however I don't think the left has much chance this year. No matter who ran against McCain. Hilary has a problem now even if she did win the primaries. That problem is that Obama supporters have been so loyal to him it is tearing the party in two to a degree. I don't know if the left can recover from what it has done to itself. We got lucky that Romney dropped out (although my vote went to him) or we would be having the same problems. But you are absolutely right in my opinion that Obama is going to take a beating when he debates with McCain who's been around 10 times as long. It will show that a great oratory can't hide inexperience

[pgh_dem]

119. No, no, no. Thank YOU!

Right hand (smarmy): If I might politely interject, (talking point talking point talking point).

Other right hand (smarmier): Oh dear, oh dear, don't you know that reason and logic aren't welcome here? Why only yesterday I was simply lambasted for (talking point talking point talking point).

Right hand: Forgive me, I wasn't aware (smiley), so pleased to meet at least one other sane person in this (denigrate DU) where it's simply a CRIME to say (talking point talking point talking point).

PS to Nance:
:yourock:

PPS to all: If I'm all 'moonie' over anything...it's that for once in my life, my primary vote looks like it will MATTER! In Pennsylvania!!!! WOOOWWWWOOOO!!!!! :woohoo:

[racaulk]

150. ROFL!!!

Love the pic! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought so! :rofl:

[Redstone]

188. Oh, THIS is funny! You're going to wade in here, and instruct not only US, but our

Republican visitor as well, about the realities of DU and the Democratic party?

After being here a grand total of a week and a half?

Wow, I never figured we'd attract God Almighty His Own Omniscient Self to DU!

Redstone

[emanymton]

117. Welcome To DU, .... Your Assessments Are ...

.
Soaring oratory is a good beginning. Given the current era of bumper sticker rhetoric and associated mentality along with non-solutions one-liner zingers, many people are willing to step up to say enough is enough. Powerful speeches delivered well are useful tools of a leader.

First and foremost Mr Obama is _not_ a Republican. He is a member of the Democratic wing of the corporate establishment party. Perhaps you and Buve do not recognize that 'being left' (as defined be conservatives) is the right place to be because that is where the vast majority of the people of USA are.

As for "debates" between the candidates, the difference on the issues that are important to the people will be clear. The candidate from the GOP has had to go so far right to pander to the Conservative base that the candidate from the Democratic Party will easily be able to handle him/her self.

Again, welcome to DU.
.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emanymton]

125. Primary Season Divisions Will End ...

.

There be not much difference between the GOP-wing candidate and The Democratic Party-wing's candidates, they all speak for the status-quo establishment. This year the Democratic Party will be allowed to win the election in November.

Again as for the 'debates' between the GOP candidate and the Democratic Party's candidate, the GOP candidate represents the past crimes of the administration. The Democratic Party's candidate will represent the future crimes of government.

.

[Dhalgren]

132. You have nailed it. We are all shadow dancing and most of us won't

look at it. I think your evaluation of the situation is correct right down the line. Good job by you. :thumbsup:


p.s. I like the Moody Blues, too... :hi:

[Royce]

137. Well,

Then all I can say is good luck to your party. I believe that McCain will still have the office. The democratic party isn't unified enough to defeat him. I feel McCain will distance himself from Bush as much as he needs to and he'll have the right wing vote. I understand your POV and have not ruled the though of Obama out entirely as I have clinton. However, I find it hard to believe and very depressing that a man with so limited experience does stand a chance. However, I have faith that experience will defeat Obama's ability to speak. But, neither of us can say for sure.

[Lorien]

139. "I find it hard to believe and very depressing that a man with so limited

experience does stand a chance". Have you already forgotten GWB in 2000?

[Royce]

144. True,

Bush had only 5 years service to Texas as governor, that is twice that of which Obama has. Not to mention he was not running against an oppenent whom had 30 years experience and has reached successfully across the isle.

[Lorien]

160. Have you read up on the service requirements for the Texas Governor?

Bush only had to put 2-3 hours in per day to maintain that office. Full eight hour day requirements were few and far between. He certainly has done all he could to maintain that lifestyle as President; he's taken more vacation days than any US President in history. All this in a "time of war".

[emanymton]

149. Well,

.

It is not _my_ party, it is the only choice of the two options open. Whoever gets foisted onto the people to choose in November will not be liberal and progressive enough for me.

Mr Obama has the same amount of experience as the earlier person from Illinois who ran for the office in 1860. Mrs Clinton can do the job also. Edwards would have been a great candidate too.

Regardless, if there is an open and honest election come November, the results will show a complete rejection by the people of USA for the shrub years. This is what many in _your_ party do not seem to grasp!

.

[Coexist]

143. some stuff - if you are really interested in reading it:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/FLDem5/192
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303_pf.html
People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the media have not devoted enough attention to Obama's bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Paul+B.+Hertneky%3a+Let%27s+compare+the+public+accomplishments+of+Clinton+and+Obama&articleId=11dc4bb6-bc19-4f73-97a4-400fbd3dad27
INSTEAD OF COMPARING Hillary Clinton's and Barack Obama's experience -- a vague set of claims -- I turned my attention toward accomplishments. Not what they've accomplished for themselves, but what they've accomplished for others.

<snip>
Obama's accomplishments show greater efficiency and clarity of purpose, forming productive alliances, making the most of his comparatively short career.

People talk about his charisma, but give me that skill and focus, trained on a four-year term, and we could see unprecedented results.

(read the entire thing - it is also referenced in the post linked to above)


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1713497,00.html
If nothing else, a presidential campaign tests a candidate's ability to think strategically and tactically and to manage a very complex organization. We have three plausible candidates remaining--Obama, Clinton and John McCain--and Obama has proved himself the best executive by far. Both the Clinton and the McCain campaigns have gone broke at crucial moments. So much for fiscal responsibility. McCain has been effective only when he runs as a guerrilla; in both 2000 and '08, he was hapless at building a coherent campaign apparatus. Clinton's sins are different: arrogance and the inability to see past loyalty to hire the best people for the job and to fire those who prove inadequate. "If nothing else, we've learned that Obama probably has the ability to put together a smooth-running Administration," said a Clinton super-delegate. "That's pretty important."

[Royce]

145. Thank you for the information

I have bookmarked it and look forward to reading it. What I fear in Obama is not lack of accomplishment entirely, it's his lack of accomplishment in the senate. It is really disheartening to know that he has opted for "no vote" on many important votes. 46% of any vote regarding budget and taxes was passed up by him. That is not somebody that I feel comfortable with running our country at all. Inaction can be as destructive as wrong action.

[Coexist]

147. 'present' votes seem to be a common strategy in Illinios

so - maybe that mindset was carried by him into the U.S. Senate for the same purpose.

U.S. Senate votes have so much wrapped up in them, that voting by voting Yea, you end up with a vote on the record for lots of stuff attached to the bill that you are against.

[Royce]

151. That is true

So perhaps if there is but one thing you may like bush for is if he does attempt to pass a bill against that practice.

[Coexist]

154. are you referring to the line item veto?

[Royce]

157. No,

The executive order to outlaw earmarks

[Jawja]

110. Thank you.

K&R :thumbsup:

[mrbluto]

112. Tending a Garden

Perhaps your reasons for supporting Obama are sound.

But from my experience I've encounter many Obama supporters who simply won't entertain a reasoned discussion regarding their candidate, nor credit a discussion of the advantages of other contenders.

When that happens I'm sorely tested, but have restrained myself for the most part out of courtesy and the hope that my supported candidate would get a fair hearing.

Well, the bloom has been off that rose for quite some time.

Yet still I sought a reasoned discussion.

Then it became clear that anything not laudatory said about Obama prompted at least one, if not several, Obama supporters to charge those who said such things with racism really kicked the stuffing out of my motivation to be civil.

But I persisted.

Upon reading your post it became clear to me that, while you have a right, NanceGreggs, to express your opinion, you have no right to do so without insult or belittlement.

Nope - no right at all.

That happy situation is the result of contentious people tending the shared garden that a reasoned debate is - including policing their own partisans.

Suffice to say Obama supporters are at least as culpable for the current lack of civility as any other group.

So excuse me if I'm not shedding a tear for your chances of expressing yourself without insult or belittlement.

p.s.: It's a rare cultist that believes they arrived at their devotion via anything other than justifiable means, so if you want to close the book on any argument about that it's time to provide a logic case for why you're not a cultist if it matters to you, rather than simply declare you are not. Same for the other things you mention. I have yet to hear a convincing case made for why either Obama or Clinton are better than the other, or even some people not even some people not actively campaigning.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[puebloknot]

245. My concern, too.

This "I, I, I" thread contains very little substance, and a lot of "Go, team, go." But where are we going? Are we going to follow the Pied Piper of the State of Illinois to an undefined location, and kid ourselves that the last eight years haven't happened?

I keep remembering the Nuremberg Rallies, wherein there was a lot of energy, and a lot of loyalty. A roaring crowd does not an informed electorate make.

[rucky]

113. You will be rewarded in this life and the next for your devotion

to defending our little (not a cult) group.

;)

[From The Left]

115. Hillary Clinton Is Out of Control and Out of Her Mind

To call Obama supporters victims of Obama's "messianic powers" and akin to "Hare Krishnas and followers of Charles Manson" is deeply offensive and highly troubling. Imagine if Hillary Clinton is elected? People will be forced to walk on eggshells for 4 years, terrified of offending her and losing their job or being compared to a member of a cult. No, Hillary Clinton is disturbed and very much reminds me of George W. Bush.

[Kokonoe]

118. Thank You, NanceGreggs

Yours is not an Obama endorsement.
It is a statement that no matter who you support, you have the right to express that opinion without insult or belittlement by fellow Democrats.

[yellerpup]

120. I was convinced

after hearing him speak. I'll vote for the Democratic nominee no matter what, but I want Obama speaking to the world for me.

[rug]

121. What is your criteria?

[blondeatlast]

123. Word, word, word. Nance nails it again. You simply ROCK, grrl! nt

[tekisui]

124. Nance, you speak for me, and with me!

[JTFrog]

126. K&R!

[stillrockin]

127. Well said. And thank you for articulating the feelings of many of us.

[ekwhite]

128. Thank you Nance

That is a great post!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Myrina]

131. As usual, Nance ROCKS!

:applause:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

133. Obamababy!

Wait, I meant "Obama, baby!" :woohoo:

[Mike Nelson]

134. I like them both, but I don't like the media...

...coverage of either. Obama gets better media than Hillary, but I don't like the fawning -- and you nailed it.

[MethuenProgressive]

135. Too bad DU's Obama supporters stopped reading before this line:

"Last time I looked, I, as a Democrat, had the right to express that opinion without insult or belittlement by my fellow Democrats."
-------------------------------------------

[Binka]

164. Oh God How did I Forget To Put YOU On Ignore!

Thanks honey all better now! Bye.

[mrbluto]

168. Hey, will you put me on ignore too?

It creeps me out to think someone like you is reading my posts.

I have this *thing* about idiocy.

Okay? Thanks!

[Bodhi BloodWave]

173. Pot meet kettle and all that jazz n/t

[K Gardner]

136. Another spot-on hit for the Greatest. Thanks for writing this, Nance. K&R

[Lorien]

138. I dislike both candidates. Please sell me on yours

my highest priorities are saving life on earth by slowing climate change as quickly as possible, finding REAL alternative energy and putting it to use (no nukes or biofuels), saving the economy, getting out of the mideeast and universal health care that EXCLUDES for profit insurance companies. What "vision"(concrete plans) does Obama have for those issues?

[JimboDem]

141. Thank You, Nance.

Your post and its content are appreciated. I was an Edwards supporter and have since given my support and vote to Obama. I will support whoever becomes the Democratic nominee and I hope the "blood sport" of primary season will be used in a more productive form against those who have stolen our last two presidential elections; those, who now are destroying the Constitution and the middle class. The oneupsmanship and hate on both candidate's sides has to end ... I hope. The 'media' can go 'imbed' themselves and I will never trust the corporate media after their helping BushCo invade Iraq and promote their fallacy of fear.

:kick:

[L0oniX]

142. A mirror of my thoughts about DU members. K&R

[Hepburn]

146. Clap, clap, clap....and K&R

:applause:

[maxpower]

148. Well Said

[Diamonique]

153. Nance does it again! k&r nt

[virgdem]

158. Bravo and well said...

As a former Edwards supporter who decided to go with Obama based on my own considerations of all that I had read or seen in the debates, I did not come to that decision lightly. I've never considered myself a "cultist" or someone who was easily drawn into going along with the sheep. I'm constantly amazed by the immaturity on this board and the insults that are hurled around with such ease. We all have to come to the decision as to who to back in our own way and that should be respected.

[democrank]

159. Ah.........a breath of fresh air.

Thank you, NanceGreggs. I stayed away for a couple of days in a feeble attempt to escape all the the...I HATE YOUR CANDIDATE...posts. Your refreshing journal entry today really made me stop and think. I`m a crusty old woman with a deep respect for rugged individualism. Imagine my surprise when I found out via a brazillion posts on DU that I have been trapped in a cult. Senator Obama`s messages apparently are coded with some kind of secret thing that makes people like me follow after him. Maybe Obama operates something like the People`s Temple Full Gospel Church and I`m like a Jim Jones-er. It`s surprising that someone like me, willing to go on without a wristwatch or cellphone, could succumb to this cult stuff.

I thought I tagged along near the end of the bandwagon because I had finally thought things through. Am I proud to have worked for equal rights for women? Yes. Must I vote for a woman because I am one? No. Did I march in the Civil Rights movement? Yes. Am I voting for Obama because he`s African-American? No. Did I vote for Bill Clinton twice? Yes. Do I feel obligated to vote for a Clinton again? No.

Change is what I`m looking for. Real honest-to-goodness change. I`m truly worn out with the same old consultants, the same old cast of characters, the same old cheerleaders, the same old favors owed, the same old split vote, the same old rivalries.

I want to get so far away fron George Bush and anything he stood for, touched, breathed on. The obscene occupation of Iraq has pained me beyond words. I think about it while I`m doing dishes, while I`m painting a bookcase, while I`m sitting on the porch. I`ve cried about it, written heartfelt letters about it. The occupation of Iraq, which Senator Obama had the good judgement to be against from the beginning, must end. My vote will be a vote not only for the hope he has given us about the future, but a vote for his courage back then.

[LuckyLib]

165. Great response. This should be an OP!

[TomClash]

162. I don't usually read your posts but

this one deserves stormy applause.

[NOLALady]

166. Merci Cher.

[Faux pas]

167. You go girl! Thanks. Bullying for one's candidate makes about

as much sense as killing for God.

[elixir]

169. Good for you. And neither am I. Let the best candidate win

[solara]

171. Again, I could not agree with you more and I think the problem people seem to be having with

civility is more than likely, fear. Fear of losing the government completely, fear of losing our country forever, fear..fear...fear and fear makes people say and do things they really wouldn't do otherwise.

I understand the fear, because it has perched itself upon my shoulder since that awful day in 2000. But I am learning to send it packing as often as I can. And I won't post here in response to someone who is obviously wallowing in it. I don't judge them, but I don't want to encourage that kind of mind set either, because if we give in to it..THEY win.

Anyway..thank you for writing, so beautifull and clearly, the things that I feel - something you always seem to do.

You are a treasure


INVESTIGATE IMPEACH INDICT IMPRECATE INCARCERATE :patriot:

kickety :kick:

[ChazII]

172. "Last time I looked, I, as an American citizen, had the right to my own opinion. "

Thank you.

[Kurovski]

174. Him?! HIM?!!!

I'm shocked to learn that Nance Greggs is a sexist!

K&R. :hug:

[rosesaylavee]

177. IT'S TRUE!!111

AND NOT ONLY THAT, SHE'S BECOME A PARTISAN HACK FOR THE CULT!

:hi:

[Kurovski]

182. OHNO!!!

BOOHOOHOOHOOOO...!!!

:rofl: :hi:

[iantepoot]

176. Clear Eyed Decision...

Thank you, Nance, for that great response to the "cult" dismissal floating around. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that Obama has made a point of NOT pointing to himself as perfection, and admitting that everything will not automatically be hunky-dory. He has often provided hard truths about the necessary price of Carbon Cap and Trade, etc. Beyond this, he has repeatedly said in his speeches:

"There will be setbacks. We will make mistakes"...

This is a realistic admission from his opponent I have not heard, and I listen to the full run of all the victory/concession speeches. It is possible she has mentioned it in some stump speech I haven't heard, but I'm skeptical.

[Lex Talionis]

179. Kudos to you, Mame. Very well said. Respects to you.

[mod mom]

180. And I care for my daughters possible future health concerns! Obama =100% rating form NARAL

Sorry, but I've just recently gotten a "How can I as a woman support Obama. Don't I care about my daughters possible future health concerns?" Here was the reply I sent (pls note it's documented w references as opposed to the questioner who relied on email gossip):


Obama on Issues Choice issues:

REPRODUCTIVE CHOICE
Supports a Woman’s Right to Choose:
Barack Obama understands that abortion is a divisive issue, and respects those who disagree with him. However, he has been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women’s rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President. He opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in that case.

Preventing Unwanted Pregnancy:
Barack Obama is an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand access to contraception, health information and preventive services to help reduce unintended pregnancies. Introduced in January 2007, the Prevention First Act will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods. The Act will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims.

-snip
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/womenissues

Obama received a 100 percent rating from NARAL, a leading pro-choice organization, in 2005 and 2006. The Clinton campaign, however, has argued that his State Senate record of occasionally voting "present" on abortion bills (which Obama says was part of a broader legislative strategy) show he is "unwilling to take a stand on choice."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/28/womens-rights-head-accus_n_83724.html

[Rageneau]

186. Obviously, a Clinton-hater. (/s)

[Deep13]

189. Just what is the practical difference between vision and charisma...

...especially as it relates to this election?

[NanceGreggs]

196. The word 'charisma', as it's been bandied about here ...

... has been used to imply that supporters are drawn to Obama on the basis of his personal charm, and not on the basis of his having anything to offer as a candidate.

[Deep13]

200. Yes, I know. I would like to know what the difference is.

In other words, what is it that he has to offer? Maybe you can tell me. I would really like to accept that he is not just a flash in the pan, but so far no one has given me any reason to suppose otherwise.

[NanceGreggs]

212. Let me start by saying ...

... that we are down to two choices, and I believe both are highly qualified for the job. And let's be honest - there isn't a whole lot of difference between their policies and plans for the future. Both want some form of affordable heathcare, want us out of the debacle in Iraq, want to create new jobs at home and keep them here, want to strengthen the educational system, etc.

So it comes down to a matter of 'management style', if I can use that phrase. Obama makes me feel more motivated as a citizen than Hillary does. The feeling I get from Hill is, "Elect me, and I'll take care of things." The feeling I get from Obama is, "Elect me, and we will get the country back on the right track." This is purely personal preference on my part - and I appreciate that others are more motivated by Hillary than Obama, and have equally valid reasons for feeling that way.

Both candidates have set out their vision of the future of the country, and their visions, as I have said, are not unalike. I think they both understand fully that their first term in office, whichever is elected, will be to undo the damage done by BushCo - no small task.

If you don't hear any substance in what Obama says, I can't make you hear it - anymore than I can make you hear the inherent beauty in a style of music that I find enchanting and you might loathe - or vice versa.

Believe me, if Hillary is the nominee, she has my full support. She is a more-than-capable woman. She has style, articulates her points extremely well, and can think on her feet - all qualities that any president would be well served by.

On a very personal note (and this is just MHO), I think that Obama's ability to motivate the citizenry has too often been dismissed out-of-hand as "just words". After the disaster of the Bush administration, I truly believe that inspiring and uplifting words are more important right now than they have been in the past.

BushCo has created truly fertile ground for someone to raise the banner of "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more" and run with it - not because they have nothing more to offer, but because it is a rallying cry that gets people to stop and listen to what else there is to be said. Words can motivate; they can lift the spirit of a nation and move people to take heart, address the tasks-at-hand, and participate in the process of getting us back to where we, as a nation, need to be. I do not dismiss nor marginalize the positive effect that "just words" can have on a people who have too long felt voiceless and ignored.

In the end, we, as Democrats, are truly fortunate to have two truly exceptional candidates from which to choose - and although my personal preference between the two is Obama, I will proudly vote for whoever the nominee turns out to be, confident that he or she will do us all proud once elected.

[Deep13]

250. Thanks for the thoughtful reply. nt

[Bread and Circus]

190. bumping every thread that doesn't have the word "plagiarize" in it (or mispellinges thereof)

[wildeyed]

191. I was dumbfounded when I saw the Obama cult meme

making the rounds here. When those threads started popping up on the Greatest Page I had this feeling of, Huh? Me? Cultist? WTF? And often, the insults are from people I liked a lot during the '04 election, back when I posted more. Also, for the record, being called names didn't make me feel like voting for Clinton at all.

I have developed a strange affinity for GD: Primaries recently, kinda reminds me of watching amateur roller derby :crazy:

[blondeatlast]

198. You might like this idea from the Lounge; I love it!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7484110

[wildeyed]

211. So true.

I should try that, just in general, around here. Like when you post something you think is cute and innocuous, and then, out of the blue, whammooooo. Instead of getting touchy, I will kill them with condescending kindness :)

[Mythsaje]

192. I'll support whoever wins the nomination.

In the meantime, both of them pretty much leave me cold.

[damonm]

194. OMG, a reasonable person!

You must be BANNED, and at once! We can't have informed, rational debate here!! :toast:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

195. Thanks for sayin' so, Nance

I'm reluctant to even discuss my choice of candidates because I grew tired of the internet flame wars in about 1998.

We've fallen on each other like wolves on sheep and it's disgusting.

BTW, you're my favorite writer on DU. :hi:

[BayjanDem]

197. Give it to

to 'em straight !!!! Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

[babylonsister]

199. Thank you, Nance. You speak for so many of us!

:applause::applause::hug:

[BootinUp]

201. Is it really his vision?

or is it campaign rhetoric honed by Axelrod to draw in the most votes?

[tripitaka]

202. what i find funny is the MSM calling obama supporters cultists

They cover him like cultists who've drunk the Koolaid, and then they decide that since they did so, anyone who supports him must be some sort of cultist.

I mean the real story here isn't the metaphorical fact of people falling tit over arse over this guy, the story is why. but they're perverting it by starting from the premise that the reaction is irrational.

Just drives me nuts. Democrats who vote for Reagan against their own self-interest get called patriotic heroes, folks who get the same feeling about Obama get called cultists.

[NanceGreggs]

204. Welcome to DU, tripitaka!

That was very well said. "They're perverting it by starting from the premise that the reaction is irrational."

You've hit that nail squarely on the head.

:hi:

[conscious evolution]

253. They can't call him n****r

That is why they use the term cultist.It is a way of saying someone has sinister or devious motives for their actions or plans.
Many people immediately think of Manson or scientology or Heavens Gate when they hear that word which makes it an ideal word to use if you want to cast asparagus at someone.

By the way,one of the original meanings of the word cult is 'to grow or tend to'.

[think4yourself]

205. Thank you Nance!

Once again, you have eloquently summed up my feelings. You are truly gifted!

[bagimin]

206. I stand with Nance.

[mzmolly]

207. Who is "he" and "him"?

I kid! ;) Nice post.

[NanceGreggs]

208. I thought it was obvious ...

... that I was talking about John McCain!

:rofl:

[mzmolly]

214. Heh!

:hi:

[Rene]

210. just shallow. this is not an american idol contest. he's absolutely no JFK or RFK or even MLK

lotta talk...no action. I'll never vote for someone I never even heard of a few months ago....for President of the United States.

[NanceGreggs]

213. If you never heard of him before a few months ago ...

... that might be your problem, not his. Maybe you were too busy watching "American Idol" to have noticed him.

I'm not looking for a JFK, RFK, or MLK; I'm looking for a man of the times, not a man of the past. However great they were, none of them happen to be running for president in 2008. Obama is - and he's got my support.

[Major Hogwash]

215. Many members of the Kennedy family, even Robert's widow, said he reminds them of RFK.

So, he might actually be closer to what they remember - as a member of their own family - than what we realize.

I've been a big Ted Kennedy fan all my life and I don't ever remember him ever comparing anyone to his brother John before.

Not often does one like JFK, RFK, or Obama come along and speak such truth to power.

[NanceGreggs]

217. Amen, brother.

The point being that they are in a position to make that comparison, as they see fit. The poster who doesn't think Obama is in 'their league' obviously thinks he/she knows better than those who knew those men best.

[puebloknot]

242. How much do those members of the Kennedy Clan *really, really* not care that much...

...for the Clintons!

I haven't heard Obama speaking truth to power. Could you give an example?

FWIW, I'm not a Hillary supporter, either, at this point.

[KaptBunnyPants]

216. I don't think I'll ever make it through a primary without feeling personally insulted.

Soon the fighting will be over, and we can all get back to hating people that deserve it.

[NanceGreggs]

218. So true.

I wasn't here for the 2000 or 2004 primary seasons, so I didn't know what to expect.

But I've made a little promise to myself - next primary, I'm outta here until the in-fighting has run its course.

[nikto]

229. I hate to see Democrats fight Democrats

I don't mean debating/arguing--Up to a point that is a good & desirable thing.

I mean, the real fighting and attacking that really, is seriously deserved by most REPUBLICANS.

I like Obama.
Am I sure he is going to be a good President?
No, but I'll take him over Hillary for reasons too lengthy to get into here.

But if Hillary gets it?
C'mon, what am I going to do--Vote for some lying, war-loving, nature-hating, scum-sucking,
corruption-promoting, rightwing, morally-decrepit GOPer?

Not on your life.

Assuming a Dem does get elected this year, then the next phase will be to SEE HOW PROGRESSIVE
THAT PERSON ACTUALLY TURNS OUT TO BE, in terms of actual POLICIES.

Another Bill Clinton-type administration is not needed by America.
Clinton Gave a relative pittance to liberal interests (family-leave, etc),
yet gave away the Store to Konservatives: NAFTA, 1996 TELECOMMUNICATIONS LAW,
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, GATT.

That is, in actuality, a distinctly right-slanted set of policies.

If, as President, Hillary OR Obama falls into the same pattern, they will be a failure, IMO,
and the Nation may not survive.

If, after 2008, a Dem President fails, then we Progressives will have to formulate
some "Plan B" and fight like hell for it.

But we have not reached that point, yet.

So I refuse to take shots at Democrats.

I save my punches (both verbal and actual) for Rightwing GOPers ONLY.

[kaygore]

219. I wish that we could still give out Valentines

I would give you several for this post! Well said!

[saltpoint]

221. I'm kicking this because language matters, and because people

who wield it in the skilled and inspired way this OP wields it are owed our attention.

[DaDooRonRon]

222. Wet blanket time

Please don't operate under the assumption that one actually chooses someone in a pre-arranged dance like a Presidential election.

The parties decide who they will let out for the show, and then they allow you to "pick one."

See, it's like this:

a)You eliminate all a la carte choices (because they never even get printed on the menu, even though they are really flavorful), then look at the three entrees. Even thought there were seven entrees at lunch, that was just practice for the wait staff.

b) They give you a choice of two (three if they're feeling generous), you pick one. They all taste the same, even though the chef swears they aren't. Interesting.

c) You tell everyone is shouting distance that you did this all by yourself!

d) You try and convince yourself.


The key question is: once you find out you've been lied to by the head chef how much do you tip the waitress???

[puebloknot]

237. Couldn't have said it better, myself. Actually, I did say it upthread...

...but with a lot more words. Thanks for succinctly summing up the name of the game.

We all know how serious this all is, and we all have to weigh what we'll do when election time comes (assuming it does). But I find disturbing all the cheerleading and acceptance of superficial "C-rations" to keep us satisfied until we get through the crisis.

Welcome to DU.

[DaDooRonRon]

251. If this cheerleading chorus was on the Titanic they would have said:

"But think of all the icebergs we MISSED!"

Goooooooooooo, team!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of silly (in a very sad way), isn't it?

Oh, and thanks for the welcome.

[C_U_L8R]

223. Right on !!!

I'm sick of being called names just for whom I support.

I'm proudly an Obamababy !!!!

Take that Hillary !

[ekwhite]

231. Thanks you very much for this post, Nance

I have gotten several useful things out of this thread:

1. The hugs idea :hug:

2. A list of several people to ignore. :evilgrin:

3. A list of great people to respect. :yourock:

Not bad for a few minutes of reading time, eh?

[HopeforChange]

232. One Word "AWESOME" !!! n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

233. Were you a Deval supporter too?

[Name removed]

234. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NanceGreggs]

239. My, my, my ...

... with such an obvious ability to articulate your thoughts so well, maybe you should be running for office!

[MH1]

254. I think I smell a pizza in the oven.

:9

[BobTheSubgenius]

235. Another oustanding post....

...both in terms of the excellence of the estimable Ms. Greggs, as well as the sentiments of the reasonable being expressed well yet again. Not to slight others AT ALL, but the recent entry by Mythsaje comes to mind as an example.

At some point, everyone is going to have to work together, n'est-ce pas? Surely this campaign (for whichever candidate) isn't going to turn into an analog of Republicans wearing tshirts displaying "I'd rather be waterboarded than vote for McCain"?

[flyinzamboni]

236. Another Great Post from Nance

Beautiful post! You are the best!

:)

[saltpoint]

240. I'm kickiin' this again, by god, because it's 11:25 p.m. and no one can stop me.

[NanceGreggs]

241. No one warms my heart ...

... in quite the same way that you do, Old Crusoe.

It's 12:25 a.m. EST, which means my twenty-four hours on the GP is up.

But tomorrow is another day ...

[saltpoint]

243. Hey there, Nance. Only 8 or 9 thousand views to your thread here.

Looks to me like you've done your job and then some.


:toast:

[NanceGreggs]

244. Oh.My.God.

I never think to look at the "views" option - only because I keep forgetting it's there.

That's a lot of people reading my ramblings - who'da thunk it?

[saltpoint]

246. They'd be far the less for it if they didn't.

That's major readership, madam.

Our old friend Ms. Ivins would say, "That's kickin' butt!"

[maximusveritas]

248. This is what they do whenever any popular movement develops

They try to belittle and mock the people who feel strongly about an issue or a candidate, just to make them lose their resolve. They did it to the Deaniacs and even to the anti-war protestors. I've belonged to all these groups and I'm proud of it.