The fight for Florida needs to be resolved NOW

[theHandpuppet]

This battle to seat Forida's delegates MUST be solved, one way or another. It will be a tight race in Florida this November, and here's another reason Florida's Democratic voters MUST NOT be disenfranchised!

http://www.sptimes.com/2008/02/02/State/Gay_marriage_on_ballo.shtml
Politics
Gay marriage on ballot

An initiative to ban same-sex marriage in Florida is certified for the November vote.
By ALEX LEARY, Times Staff Writer
Published February 2, 2008
U.S. News Video

TALLAHASSEE - The gay marriage battle has arrived in Florida.

A proposed constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage qualified for the November ballot in a last-minute petition tally Friday night - a development that could affect this fall's presidential election....

<snipping>

Florida4Marriage.org collected 649,346 signatures, according to the Secretary of State's Office. It cleared 8 percent in 15 of the 25 districts.

The presence of the proposal has the potential to greatly alter voter turnout in a presidential election year.

Evangelicals and social conservatives now have a much higher motivation to go to the polls....

MORE

[NC_Nurse]

1. Meh.

I don't think it will matter that much. The Florida voters knew the deal when they voted.

[theHandpuppet]

2. Thanks for your support and concern

'Nuff said.

[QC]

5. Of course, if Obama had won Florida...

we would be hearing--nonstop and at deafening volume--that we must never disenfranchise loyal Democrats.

[havocmom]

28. Not from me. And probably many others too

The state party knew the rules. The state party broke the rules. DEMS in the state need to address their state party and clean house if they don't like the results. I don't care which way the vote went, the party had set rules. There was discussion before the decisions were made.

We want bush/cheney to be held accountable for abiding by rule of law, but somehow it's ok to kick rules to the curb if it suits us? NO not all of us think so.

The primary was a PARTY EVENT. The Party made the rules.

[QC]

29. The legislature set the primary date, not the party. n/t

[havocmom]

31. The party can hold primary when it wants

It may have to hold without state help, but it has been done.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NC_Nurse]

33. Thank the state leaders in FL.

Enjoy your short time here. :hi:

[billyoc]

3. Good news, it's already been resolved.

Rest easy, citizen.

[MonkeyFunk]

8. ah

and in 2000, the repubs kept saying "the votes HAVE been counted! Again and again!"

Such easy dismissal of disenfranchisement sucks.

[billyoc]

19. Everyone showed up on election day in 2000, not six weeks before hand

demanding that they get to vote first and that their votes should still be counted.


Disenfranchisement my ass.

[MonkeyFunk]

21. You want to disregard the votes

of over 2 million people.

That's disenfranchisement, even if it benefits your candidate.

[billyoc]

25. No, I'd prefer that their votes be counted, but they voted on the wrong day

and their votes don't count, any more than they would if they had voted in the wrong precinct.

[MonkeyFunk]

27. And a strict adherence to the rules

was what allowed them to steal Florida in 2000. "We can't recount the whole state - the law doesn't allow for it!." "We can't wait another day - the law says the vote numbers must be in TODAY!"

It entirely ignored the obvious and expressed will of the voters of Florida. And the DNC "rule" is flexible. Other states were given waivers.

It saddens me to see democrats support disenfranchising so many people in order to put their candidate in office. It's so... so... ya know... Republican.

[billyoc]

41. Noone is being disenfranchised in Florida. They voted on the wrong day.

They're even free to vote again(as you full well know). That doesn't sound like disenfranchisement to me.

[MonkeyFunk]

47. Repeat it all you want

but it's not like there was a primary scheduled for March 2nd and they all showed up simultaneously on the wrong day.

Their primary was scheduled on the day they voted. A state constitutional amendment was passed. It was a valid election according to the STate of Florida.

A record 1.7 million people came out to vote, and they expressed their will very clearly.

I understand that it benefits your guy to disenfranchise them, but it doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

[billyoc]

48. The DNC also offered to fully cover the cost of a post-2/5 caucus, time to stop whining. nt

[MonkeyFunk]

49. Why would a caucus with probably

150,000 voters be better than an election with 1.7 million voters?

It's absurd to say a caucus is more democratic than an election in which record-breaking numbers of democratic voters came out to express their will.

[billyoc]

51. A caucus now would be better because it would get the Florida delegation seated.

Or do you want to "disenfranchise" the Florida voters?

[MonkeyFunk]

52. Oh, I suspect they'll be seated

without a caucus.

We already have a great measure of what the Florida voters wanted. You want to replace it with a tiny subset of those voters, in the hopes that your guy does better. Sorry... the vote that occurred was more than enough to tell us what Florida voters wanted.

[billyoc]

53. Are you not reading my words, or do you have me confused with someone else?

I would rather the DNC just seated them and worked out a better schedule for the next primary. There doesn't seem to be any indication that the DNC will budge on this, though.

I also do not think that the Florida votes would secure the nomination for Clinton, even if they were counted three times. :hi:

[MonkeyFunk]

54. Fair enough

and if it WERE to tip the balance to Clinton?

[billyoc]

55. Then she wins.

I don't like Obama enough to call for throwing away votes.

[MonkeyFunk]

56. LOL

cool. Thanks.

[cd3dem]

58. I live in a caucus state and I feel disenfranchised!!!

our caucuses were taken over by Obama maniacs who broke rules ... there was no order to allow for validation of voters... voters who wrote their names down could not be identified b/c they wrote with such poor penmanship...

just heard that in Rochester, MN a bus full of Somalians were brought in... handed ballots with Obama's name on it.. had them place them in the box and they were put back on the bus without writing down their names and addresses.. no documentation...

people in our building could have easily walked down the hall and voted multiple times... and then drove to another site...

not to mention... caucuses attract young people, scaring away old people

and generally average 6.3% of the voting population...Florida had a 33% turnout for their primary!

the only reason for a do-over is to allow Obama people to steal the state!!!

[havocmom]

30. BINGO

Can I just mosey to the polling place and vote early? Maybe. Will my vote be counted? Nope.

[backscatter712]

You think what happened in Florida was even close to a proper election?

The DNC had ruled, the voters were told their delegates had been stripped, a lot of them stayed home, and some of them changed how they would vote since it was effectively a meaningless statement, and didn't have an actual effect on the nomination. None of the candidates campaigned there.

The point is that what we see in Florida has little to do with how the election might have gone if Florida followed the rules and their delegates counted and the candidates campaigned.

So stop pretending that it is.

I've stated so many times that I'm turning blue in the face that I'm perfectly fine with letting Florida and Michigan run new elections so their voters can be represented. But seating delegates as-is is just as disenfranchising as not seating them at all.

[MonkeyFunk]

37. I think what happened in Florida

was a very adequate election. The turnout was far more than twice that of 2004, and all the candidates were on the ballot.

Everybody was on equal footing (except for Obama giving himself a slight leg up by running ads there a couple days before the election).

You can't have a record-breaking 1.7 million voters express their will and call it meaningless.

[Thrill]

4. Florida is a lost cause

Repuke government there. Just voted in a Wacko Repuke Senator. McCain will likely win there

[theHandpuppet]

7. I still have hopes for Florida

Even If it wasn't for the thorough corruption in their state gov't we'd have had Gore in the White House rather than Dimbulb. Can you imagine? (The very memory of that fight is depressing.) I don't think we should write them off.

[stahbrett]

12. True, but I always think of the fact that Gore did not win Tennessee

If he had won Tennessee (his home state, as we all know), Florida would not have mattered.

[demonsweat]

9. Obama doesnt stand a chance here

McCain will destroy Obama here and throughout the south.

[theHandpuppet]

13. I don't believe that

And I'm an HRC supporter. It's a long way to November and there's no telling what may happen between now and then. All the more reason to settle this matter now so all efforts can be refocused on the November election.

[davsand]

6. This probably should be directed at Florida Dem party leaders.

When the Florida Dem party leadership flipped the DNC the bird and held that Primary early THEY screwed their own voters. Seems to me the pressure needs to be put on replacing THEM rather than dragging in the rest of the country. This is a family feud down there--let them get their own house in order.

:shrug:



Laura

[theHandpuppet]

10. That "family feud" could cost us a Presidential election.

What happened in Florida and Michigan should be of concern to all Democrats and to the party as a whole. Someone need to step in here and resolve this now.

[davsand]

17. Um, The debate about Florida and those delegates is for the CONVENTION not the General.

Nobody is going down there and taking away their right to vote, they are simply saying you screwed the DNC and now you don't get to come play in the big party meet-up in Denver.

Call it "Dem Detention Hall" if it helps make it more understandable.

Here ya go, in my best evil Mom voice I'll offer up a solution: "Florida, you need to smack snot outta your Dem party leadership or else you are doomed to a life of more GOPiglet Governors like Jeb. Now straighten up or else I will stop this car!"

:spank:


Laura

[theHandpuppet]

23. Um, I know that

And whether or not to seat a state's delegates could determine who our nominee will be. To tell Florida's voters they are excluded from that process because their party leaders fucked up is fair how? I wouldn't be encouraged to cast a vote if I thought my party didn't give a rat's ass about me. That's what I'm saying. We will need every vote we can get in November. Mass disenfranchisement of voters now in the primaries is nuts.

[dysfunctional press]

11. there's nothing to resolve. the delegates don't count. everybody knew that beforehand.

sheesh...:eyes:

[theHandpuppet]

16. And if millions of voters end up being disenfranchised it's just "tough love"?

That would really encourage me to go to the polls in November, hell yeah. As a party we can either cut off our nose to spite our face or find someone to resolve this in a way that would prevent this crap from ever happening again but without sending a big "fuck you" message to millions of Florida voters. If Obama ends up as the nominee (which I suspect he will be, even though I support HRC), just how do you think it will come across to Floridians if he opposed the seating of their delegates, effectively negating their vote. Then he'll solicit their support for November? Yeah, that's smart. It's going to be a tight race no matter who the Dem nominee happens to be and alienating millions of potential voters is about the most STUPID course of action I can think of. Do you really think the average voter in Florida had any idea what the consequences would be for this early primary? I don't.

Certainly there is someone of leadership and respect in our party who can resolve this, and quickly. Gore, perhaps?

[dysfunctional press]

20. it's not any of the candidates faults that florida's leaders chose to break the rules.

if florida voters decide to cut off their collective nose to spite their collective face by staying home in november- that's always their perogative.

[theHandpuppet]

26. So it's a "Screw you!" now but vote for my candidate later??

Look, at this point I don't even see this as a matter of which candidate you're supporting, I'm looking at this mess as possibly turning off voters in a crucial state. It drains time, energy, money and focus away from the GE and potentially tosses Florida into GOP hands without so much as a fight. One way OR ANOTHER, settle it. NOW.

[dysfunctional press]

44. isn't that what hrc supporters want to say to obama voters by changing the rules?

since ANY decision will apparently piss off one side or the other, the ONLY fair thing to do is to go by the pre-determined and agreed upon rules in rgard to seating the MI and FL delegates.
sorry.
better luck in 2012- maybe you florida democrats can get your act together by then.

[dysfunctional press]

24. and btw- if the rules are changed just to benefit hillary-

and she ends up the nominee- how will that affect obama supporters across THE ENTIRE COUNTRY?
or is it okay for hrc supporters in FL to have a snit about it, but not for obama supporters to, if rules are changed to disenfranchise THEIR votes?

[theHandpuppet]

32. If Obama voters have a plan, let's hear it

And it should be something other than millions of votes don't count. Having another vote is simply not feasbile. Do you have ANY idea what kind of logistics would be involved, not to mention how much money that would drain from the state and party coffers, not to mention those of the candidates?

There has got to be some solution that would be acceptable to everyone but the party need a real leader who would serve as an arbiter in this case.

[dysfunctional press]

43. the "plan" would be to go by the pre-determined and agreed upon rules.

the the ONLY fair thing to do.

[theHandpuppet]

50. Fair to the voters as well?

Do you really think the average Florida voter was so well-versed on the party rules and what the consequences would be? I would agree the party leaders in Florida furked up bigtime but in the end it's really the Joes and Janes on the street who are paying the price for their folly. It's those party leaders who need to be punished without telling millions of folks their votes don't count. Somewhere in there is a compromise that will both insure this will never happen again but also tell Florida voters they have not been abandoned. I don't think giving Florda voters the big FU and then expecting their support in November is a particularly wise idea, either. Unlike some I have not given up on the idea that Dems can win Florida but because the RW vote will be especially energized over the marriage amendment, I do not see how alienating any Dem voters in Florida can benefit us whatsoever -- espeically if the race is close, which I expect it will be no matter who that party nominee might be.

[dysfunctional press]

64. since it was very well-publicized and well-known prior to the election...

that the delegates were not going to be seated. are you saying that the average florida voter is an uninformed moron? is that the real reason that more hillary voters went to the polls?
if florida voters are so petty and short-sighted that they would stay away from the polls in november over the proper enforcement of pre-agreed to rules- then yeah, i say FUCK THEM, and the c-hag they tried to ride in on.
we don't negotiate with terrorists.

[stahbrett]

15. I know a quite a few folks in Florida...

and none of them are threatening not to vote if Florida does not get delegates at the convention. Even those who are Hillary supporters... this whole thing is very much an "inside baseball" type of thing. The vast, vast majority of people will do what they usually do - figure out which candidate to vote for in November. Boycotting the general election because the state officials screwed things up in the primaries won't be a consideration whatsoever.

[theHandpuppet]

18. I'm not so sure

If nothing else it drains time, energy, focus and resources away from the November race not to mention other important issues on the ballot.

[stahbrett]

35. Not once a nominee is determined - then there is nothing to detract from November, in my opinion n/t

[Independent-Voter]

22. This was dealt with months ago, all candidates signed off on it, perhaps you

should start paying attention instead of bitching about this. It's a done deal.

[theHandpuppet]

36. Let me know when you'd like to engage in some civil discourse

No matter who ends up as the nominee for this party, the mess in Florida is disruptive and may prove to be even moreso by the time the convention rolls around.

[Independent-Voter]

46. Again, the mess was the result of the Florida representatives ages ago. Time to stop bitching

and time to start figuring out how to iron out the process for the next time. Sorry, but that's just the way the world works.

[MadBadger]

34. There is no way in hell that the amendment wont pass.

Here in Wisconsin, where Kerry won in 2004, the amendment still passed like 60-40. Its going to pass easily in Florida no matter what.

[theHandpuppet]

39. You're most probably right

I really have little to no hope that the amendment won't pass by a large margin. But the article also stated that the amendment will motivate and energize the evangelical and conservative voters to show up at the polls. So the mere appearance of this bill on the November ballot means we'll need every Dem vote we can get in Florida. I have by no means written this state off in the red column.

[pampango]

38. What if Hawaii and Rhode Island had moved their primaries up instead

of Michigan and Florida?

Would the hand wringing over "disenfranchisement" and "what about the GE" be just as loud?

Did the state Democratic parties in Michigan and Florida know that "size matters" and that they could potentially get away with ignoring the DNC, while smaller states might not?

[JorgeTheGood]

40. The Florida delegates will be seated and counted ...

the constitution says so.

No one, absolutely no one, has the authority or power to tell american citizens that their votes will not count. Especially not a state party nor a state legislature. And you can expect major blowback should Obama try to not seat the delegates.

The bigger problem is the gay marriage act. That alone will probably be enough to keep Florida red.

[theHandpuppet]

42. It's because the marriage amendment is on the ballot...

... we can expect a large turnout of evangelicals, conservatives and outright bigots. I agree that this alone will make it difficult for us to turn Florida blue but I haven't given up hope. We'll need the enthusiastic support and participation of Florida Dems and that's why the continued fighting can only hurt us in November.

[dysfunctional press]

45. wanna bet?

nt

[madfloridian]

57. The supreme court said no.

:shrug:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1813

[JorgeTheGood]

59. That was a question of ruling ...

this is a question of people having already voted with a group of people declaring those votes will not count. Stalinesque ... SCOTUS needs to rule explicitly on the FL and MI cases.

Bottom line ... if the delegates are not seated and counted, the blowback will be directly on Obama which means he can kiss his White House hopes bye-bye.

[madfloridian]

61. So you get to decide what the SCOTUS does? I don't think so.

That is sounding pretty pathetic now. The Supreme Court ruled, a Florida judge threw out two lawsuits in favor of the DNC since Florida Dems moved up the primary.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1813

"Hinkle said the Democratic National Committee has a right to set its schedule for primaries. The national party penalized Florida because it broke party rules by jumping the state's primary date ahead to Jan. 29.

To rule otherwise would be a free-for-all with all 50 states, Hinkle said. He gave the plaintiffs the choice to re-file under the voting rights act against the state of Florida if they choose"

Hillary's supporters are making a huge mistake to keep on pushing this.

Or maybe it is in influx and not real Hillary supporters at all. Baiting?

[backscatter712]

60. This isn't a national or state election.

It's a decision process internal to the Democratic Party. Thus the party gets a lot of discretion as to how they run their internal decision-making processes. Today, it's done with primaries and caucuses. It used to be smoke-filled rooms.

The DNC made rules, with the input of Florida, Michigan, all the other states, and the Presidential candidates including Clinton and Obama. All of them signed off on the rules, which included consequences for violations.

Then Florida's legislature, with the full support of their Democrats, chose to break those rules. They were warned, given plenty of opportunity to avoid consequences, and they stayed their course.

So they lose their delegates. Cry me a fucking river!

:nopity:

[no name no slogan]

62. It's up to the credentials committee

They are the ones who will have the ultimate decision on whether FL and MI are seated. And they will not be named until after all the delegates are selected-- i.e., after the last primary.

It will be decided, but not until the convention.

[backscatter712]

63. One more tidbit...

The credentials committee is seated by candidate representatives in proportion to the number of pledged delegates they have.

So if Obama's got more pledged delegates, more of his supporters will be on the committee.