So if a comedian steals a joke and uses it . . .

[Voltaire]

Is that plagiarism as well? Are we really wasting our time discussing this nonsense??

With all of the work we in this party need to do we ought to be ASHAMED with wasting time this way. I am so glad to be in neither camp and willing to support whomever wins. The enemy is John McCain. Period.

Let's stop airing our dirty laundry in public, the Republicans are watching.

[usregimechange]

1. More than two words? such as "that is" ?

[xultar]

2. Carlos Mencia. Who is a joke stealer. That's why I can't stand his ass.

[IndianaJones]

42. Mencia is horrible. Have you seen video of Joe Rogan confronting him onstage about it? nt.

[scheming daemons]

3. Definition of Plagiarism says that it must be "Unauthorized"

Obama had authorization to use it, since the same speech writer (Axelrod, the owner of the lines) that wrote it for the governor of Massachusetts wrote it for Obama.

[JuniperLea]

10. That is incorrect

You can use anyone else's word if you credit them. Look it up. Stop spreading incorrect information.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. That's perfectly correct.

Furthermore, in order for it to be plagiarism it's got to be two different authors.

Yet this is the same author in each case.

This is as stupid as accusing a voice artist of plagiarism in the official Book-on-Tape version of a novel.

[JuniperLea]

18. Did you bother to look it up?

www.m-w.com


Merriam Webster says differently. Uncredited is the key. In order for this Obama speech to be legit, he would have had to credit the originator.

Are you saying this was written by the same speech writer? If so, the person who pays the writer OWNS the speech, and it would still require another to credit the person WHO PAID for the original speech.

My firm writes speeches. My firm places articles in various publications. I work on the copyrights. You are incorrect. Look it up.


Main Entry: 1copy·right
Pronunciation: \-ˌrīt\
Function: noun
Date: 1735
: the exclusive legal right to reproduce, publish, sell, or distribute the matter and form of something (as a literary, musical, or artistic work)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. You misspelled plagiarism.

It's spelled P-L-A-G-I-A-R-I-S-M.

Not C-O-P-Y-R-I-G-H-T

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plagiarism

pla·gia·rism
–noun
1. the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.

That's from dictionary.com

A copyright is a whole different issue. Are you now trying to claim Axelrod had a copyright on the speech he wrote, and then broke it for Obama?

:rofl:

[JuniperLea]

25. Try reading the entire post...

I asked a question based on what you said!

"Furthermore, in order for it to be plagiarism it's got to be two different authors."

I asked if you were saying the speeches were written by the same person.

Try to keep up, ok?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. scheming daemons is saying they were both written by Axelrod, yes.

I don't know if that's true, but I've seen no reason to doubt it.

[JuniperLea]

32. Speeches are bought and paid for

If you pay a speech writer to write a speech for you, you OWN that speech.

Just like I said, Lemmy wrote a ton of songs for Ozzy, Ozzy paid for them and records them giving himself credit for writing... that's how it works.

My firm writes speeches. I work on copyrights. This is common knowledge. Look it up.

[Ravy]

19. Some do, some don't. To be truthful, it doesn't have to fit *all* definitions. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Give me a definition of "plagiarism"

...that doesn't literally use the word "unauthorized" or imply it.

[JuniperLea]

27. Unauthorized is the key term in the law

So, based on that, how can you say this was NOT plagiarism?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Two reasons.

1. I see no reason to assume it was unauthorized, given it was the same author.

2. The quote from either speech is a simple two word rhetorical argument "just words," and two of the most common quotes in American history. Two seperate authors could have easily come up with the same sentence independently.

[JuniperLea]

36. Authorization still requires crediting the writer... or the person who paid for the speech

Look again at the definition of plagiarism.

: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without CREDITING the source
intransitive verb
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an IDEA or product derived from an existing source

These issues have been beaten to death several times in songwriting plagiarism, and speech-writing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. No it doesn't.

If the author doesn't have an issue with its use, it's not an issue.

Now if it's a case of a student cheating on an essay, OK, the burden of proof would be on the student to show that the author OK'd the use. But in a highly public case like this where Patrick and Axelrod can be easily asked, the burden of proof is on the accusers.

[JuniperLea]

43. You are wrong

The author still needs credited.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Is that why people always credit authors after speeches?

:eyes:

[JuniperLea]

53. Once more and again...

If you pay for a speech, you own it.

The only way out of this is to quote widely KNOWN items... such as Bible passages... or "I have a dream"... everyone knows those are MLK's words.

The bottom line is this. Had Obama simply said something like my pal so and so said such and such, he would have been just fine. Now every word he utters will be Googled and every RW Nut Job in the world will be looking for more shit to fling at him in this regard. It was a really stupid thing to do and he could have saved himself from looking like a dumbass thief very easily.

As I've said, I have no dog in this race. I voted for Edwards the day before he threw in the towel. I don't see any real differences between Obama and Clinton. I want a Dem in the White House, and either of these two is as good as the other. As long as they play smart. Obama didn't play smart this time, and furthermore, he acted as though we are all idiots and wouldn't know what he did, or didn't think we would know what he should have done to save all this stupidity from tainting his campaign. What I don't like is a candidate's stupidity followed up with dumbass arguments about it like I'm seeing on DU today. I don't like it at all, but I understand how it is necessary. As far as we take it here, the RW will take it even further, so better to see the blood-letting here than in the media.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. I will agree...

that if Obama has said something to the effect of my "pal so and so said such and such" then people like you wouldn't be cramming their feet in their mouths.

Wouldn't have made a very good speech though.

[JuniperLea]

68. Seems Obama agrees with me...

He came out yesterday and said he should have credited the source and there would have been no issue. Not that I'm gloating or anything:)

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. Because Deval Patrick, who would know best, says it was authorised?

In the face of that, it's nonsensical to claim that it was 'plaigarism'.

Really, you should pay attention to the facts before making easily refuted assertions.

[JuniperLea]

61. You have no clue as to what you are talking about

My firm writes speeches for others. I deal directly with copyright issues on the matter, as well as published articles.

In your attempt to spin, you lost the point. Regardless of whether permission was given, this has already hit the airwaves in a negative way for Obama. His wranglers should have known better to let this happen even if he didn't. It made him look bad. All he had to do is give verbal attribution to another and this argument would have never come about. No matter what he comes up with to sooth the weary arguments now, this made him look like a fool, and dumbass and a loser. Just like Whitewater did for the Clintons... even if nothing was proved and no charges were brought up, it follows them around like a sick, tired and hungry puppy with big eyes. As will this, among other issues, with Obama.

You can't suck up words already spoken, you can't take the bad press back out of people's eyes and ears.

Oh, and you should really pay closer attention to your spelling, perhaps use the spell check function provided here at DU... it will give more credence to your arguments... especially when you are trying to club another DUer down verbally. Your post smacks of "get a brain, moran".

[Spider Jerusalem]

65. No, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Because copyright is not what's at issue; if the use was authorised, that point is moot; also, if the use was authorised, any accusation of 'plagiarism' is moot (most practical academic definitions of the term specifically mention 'unauthorised use', as plagiarism is in its strictest sense a form of intellectual theft; one cannot be said to have stolen that which one has been given by the rightful owner). I don't care what you do for a living; you're still wrong.

[JuniperLea]

67. Seems Obama agrees with me...

He came out yesterday saying he should have credited the source and this would have indeed been a moot point.

Obama was right about this, and it's exactly what I've been saying all along.


Edited to say if you understood what plagiarism is, you wouldn't have made such an ill-informed comment about copyrighted information.

[Ravy]

33. Here you go.

plagiarism

noun
1. a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work
2. the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

plagiarism." WordNet® 3.0. Princeton University. 18 Feb. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plagiarism>.

[JuniperLea]

37. That's right

Now, can you explain how Obama DID NOT plagiarize this IDEA?

[Ravy]

46. I think he *did* plagerize it.

I think it is minor and he should attribute it, apologize, and move on.

The media is probably combing their archives for others though. If this is all they find, I would consider it a lapse.

[JuniperLea]

49. I agree

Had he said something like, my pal so and so said such and such, there would be no issue and no one would have thought twice about the whole deal. As it stands, he looks like a dumbass thief. And now everything he says is going to be put to the test. He got what he asked for in this instance.

I have no dog in this race. I voted for Edwards the day before he threw in the towel. I think the differences between Clinton and Obama are so slight, they are basically two heads on the same hydra.

I want a Dem in the White House. I don't give a flying rat's ass which one.

[Ravy]

52. I could have written that... but it would be plagiarizing *grin*

Same here, I voted for Edwards in the Florida primary, and haven't settled on either remaining candidate, and probably will not.

I do see differences in the candidates.. not in agenda, but in style. I consider Clinton a more stable, safer choice for us. I view Obama as either destined for greatness or utter failure. Averages out.

Will support the nominee in November, as well.


Edit: spelling

[JuniperLea]

54. I agree... but I think "style" means nothing...

I understand how people get caught up in the cult of personality on both sides, but I don't think charisma is something we should be voting for a president on... smarts is the better way to go. Most people around here just don't get that. A brilliant mind is no guarantee of a pleasing personality, and vice versa. The more people say stupid things like "he inspires me" without being able to tell me why that is, the more afraid I become! It's nearly as bad as saying I'd like to have a beer with him. And we all know where that led us.

[Ravy]

57. I was referring more to whether to work with the republicans or fight them

tooth and nail difference in their style.

I agree with you on the personality/charisma aspects.

[Maddy McCall]

63. Wrong. It must be UNCITED.

I know this. I do it for a living...catch plagiarists, that is.

[Deja Q]

4. Tell them to go look in each others' bedrooms instead.

Might be more fun...



I'd hate to know where the sheep went... probably the most convenient mens' room at an airport...

[NashVegas]

5. It Used to Be Said

That many comedians hated it Robin Williams turned up at their show, because it was pretty much guaranteed he'd nick from you.


And you wouldn't mind, if it was HC's laundry, I suspect.

[Deja Q]

9. Robin Williams? Or Carlos Mencia?

http://blog.joerogan.net/archives/92

[durrrty libby]

6. "Steal" is key

[JuniperLea]

7. Plagiarize, according to Merriam Webster...

transitive verb
: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive verb
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source


I think is shows how naive Obama is... he could have gotten away with this in the 60's, before the Internets gave us the ability to search out stupid things people do. He must think most of us are too stupid to get it. What a dumbass.

It was a stupid thing to do. Deal.

[Ashy Larry]

15. Should Hillary credit Mark Penn

when she says that she is in the solutions business?

[JuniperLea]

20. If she paid Mark Penn for his speech writing...

She owns the speech!

When Ozzy Osborne pays Lemmy Kilmister for songs Lemmy wrote, Ozzy puts his name on the songs as writer. Perfectly legal. If you pay for a speech to be written, you OWN that speech.

Jeez people.

[Ashy Larry]

26. If you have explicit permission from the author,

it is also perfectly legal. Stop spinning.

[JuniperLea]

30. You still need to credit the author!

That is the law.

If you paid a speech-writer for a speech, and he/she used something they used in another person's speech, which was previously paid for by another person (always the case in speech-writing) then the speech writer has plagiarized NOT his/her own works, but works he/she sold to someone else.

[Ashy Larry]

35. So if Bill Clinton feeds Hillary some lines,

she has to say that in her speech? Are you serious? Show me the law that says that.

[JuniperLea]

40. Think about it

Is he giving her things he's already paid for? Is he giving her things to use for free? You have the right to give people things. Is he her husband? :eyes:

[Ashy Larry]

47. You have the right to give people things,

but only if you are married? I'm not sure thats the law. I give things to friends all the time. I really don't think you have thought this through. Seems like desperation.

[JuniperLea]

55. Don't put words in my post...

If you can't keep up, I'm done talking to you.

[Ashy Larry]

58. I'll miss you.

[Little Star]

66. Permission is not enough! You have to acknowledge that it is

so & so's words.

[JuniperLea]

69. Yep! Obama said so yesterday...

He said he should have credited the source and all this would have never happened.

[Straight Shooter]

8. Well, it needs to be hammered out here, because it's going to be discussed elsewhere.

If you're an Obama supporter, people in public might ask you what it's all about.

Do you see now how the MSM is beginning to turn against Obama, now that McCain is the designated nominee?

[Voltaire]

13. Who gives a shit what the MSM thinks?

The sooner we realize that and act accordingly, the sooner we can get to some substance. The MSM only has the power we give it.

Oh, what am I saying, this is America, and so the idiocy is bound to continue in leaps and bounds. I weep for this place.

[Straight Shooter]

50. You're joking, right? The purveyors of the Dean Scream, the marginalizers of Edwards?

The ones who gave us this crappy horse race for ratings, the ones who never held bush accountable?

That MSM?

edit typo

[pstans]

12. Yes

[pstans]

14. Hillary was plagarizing Obama's words before the Iowa Caucuses

The night before the caucuses at a rally in Iowa, Hillary said she was fired up and ready to go. Hmmm...I wonder where she got that from?

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/01/barack-clinton.html

[flyarm]

16. How Plagiarism helped take us to war in Iraq.

How Plagiarism helped take us to war in Iraq.

Plagiarism.. is a serious matter,..it helped take us to war..Plagiarism is a deception..it is a lie.

and it is important to every teacher in this country
and to every educational institution in this nation and others...


you can try to poo poo plagiarism..but it won't wash with me..it is deception..clear and simple..it is stealing..plain and simple..and we have proof positive of how plagiarism has killed...look at the Iraq war.



and it is something we all should be wary of since Colin Powell helped take us to war based on Plagarism.

I take plagiarism very seriously ..so much so that i have kept these articles in my files ever since...yes Colin Powell plagiarised a College guys dissertation paper to help take us into war....remember when he sat In the UN and televisions all over the world were on Colin Powell and we as a nation and the worlds people stopped everything and watched him give his speech...

well his so called facts.. were plagiarised.

Plagiarism is a serious matter! 4000 dead soldiers and over 1 million dead Iraqi's can attest to that.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4601552-103690,0 ...


Downing St admits blunder on Iraq dossier
Plagiarism row casts shadow over No 10's case against Saddam

Michael White, Ewen MacAskill and Richard Norton-Taylor
Saturday February 8, 2003

Guardian

Downing Street yesterday apologised for its failure to acknowledge that much of its latest dossier on Iraq was lifted from academic sources, as the affair threatened to further undermine confidence in the government's case for disarming Saddam Hussein.
MPs and anti-war groups were quick to protest that other features of Whitehall's information campaign are suspect at a time when MI6 and other intelligence agencies are privately complaining at the way No 10 has been over-egging intelligence material on Iraq.

It emerged yesterday that the dossier issued last week - later found to include a plagiarised section written by an American PhD student - was compiled by mid-level officials in Alastair Campbell's Downing Street communications department with only cursory approval from intelligence or even Foreign Office sources.

Though it now appears to have been a journalistic cut and paste job rather than high-grade intelligence analysis, the dossier ended up being cited approvingly on worldwide TV by the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, when he addressed the UN security council on Wednesday.




xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4600667-103550,0 ...

UK war dossier a sham, say experts
British 'intelligence' lifted from academic articles

Michael White and Brian Whitaker
Friday February 7, 2003

Guardian

Downing Street was last night plunged into acute international embarrassment after it emerged that large parts of the British government's latest dossier on Iraq - allegedly based on "intelligence material" - were taken from published academic articles, some of them several years old.
Amid charges of "scandalous" plagiarism on the night when Tony Blair attempted to rally support for the US-led campaign against Saddam Hussein, Whitehall's dismay was compounded by the knowledge that the disputed document was singled out for praise by the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, in his speech to the UN security council on Wednesday.

Citing the British dossier, entitled Iraq - its infrastructure of concealment, deception and intimidation in front of a worldwide television audience Mr Powell said: "I would call my colleagues' attention to the fine paper that the United Kingdom distributed... which describes in exquisite detail Iraqi deception activities."




fly

I am an Edwards Democrat!

[Iris]

17. yes, if a comedian steals a joke and uses it, it is plagiarism.

[tishaLA]

24. NEVER watch the film "The Aristocrats"

[Iris]

29. that was the whole POINT of the Aristocrats

all the comedians telling the SAME joke .... get it?

[tishaLA]

34. exactly

[Iris]

38. so what's your point?

I've not doubt all the t's were crossed and i's were dotted in the making of that movie.

[tishaLA]

51. that the "same joke" is never the "same joke"

it's the point made by Warhol in his repetitions or by Deleuze in Difference and Repetition. Every idea, each iteration, and every citation, differs not only from the original but also to itself.

[Iceburg]

23. Yes its plagerism. It's also the most certain way to end up unemployed./nt

[IndianaJones]

41. you're Dane Cook. awesome guy to have stuff in common with. nt.

[Ashy Larry]

48. Nobody gave Dane permission

to use their jokes. Thats the difference. Comedians who are friends do sometimes share jokes.

[stillcool]

44. It's "Word-Gate"

and it's going to be huge!! "Whitewater-Gate", and "Monica-gate" will look like child's play once the big, bad GOP gets a hold of this.

[MonkeyFunk]

59. It's the primal sin of comedy

[JuniperLea]

62. And music... and literature...

All anyone has to do is attribute what they are saying and all is well. Bad press can't be sucked back up, so no matter if it was given approval or not, it looks bad and it will continue to look bad.

Just like the Clintons will never live down Whitewater... even though no charges were brought and no wrong doing was proved. We still hear about this time and time again from the RW... and you can bet they will do the same here.

[TheWraith]

64. To be completely accurate:

If a comedian steals a joke and uses it, yes, that's considered plagarism and is treated VERY seriously by comedians.

However, if two comedians are talking and swapping material, and polishing each other's stuff, it's considered shared. Same goes for other kinds of writers.