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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:18 PM
Original message
Deval Patrick Told Obama To Use His Language, Gave The Text To His Speechwriters, Plagiarism NOT!
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 01:23 PM by Dems Will Win
How can it be plagiarism, legally, in this case?? It cannot.

Mr. Patrick said he told Mr. Obama that he should respond to the criticism, and he shared language from his campaign with Mr. Obama’s speechwriters.

Mr. Patrick said he did not believe Mr. Obama should give him credit.


“Who knows who I am? The point is more important than whose argument it is,” said Mr. Patrick, who telephoned The New York Times at the request of the Obama campaign. “It’s a transcendent argument.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/us/politics/18video.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&loc=interstitialskip&ref=politics&adxnnlx=1203357935-Z0TqSaRg+yvbRzSej7CBKQ


Can we get back to the issues now? Like Hillary says "outsourcing is a reality", that people will have to learn to live with, while Obama wants to restructure the tax code so corporations don't have an incentive to ship jobs overseas. Hillary even went to India to say how great outsourcing is.

So let's talk about that on this thread instead!

Here's a photo of Hillary supporting Tata Consultancy, a top outsourcing firm from India.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_d9PxlbCXrxA/RuyouHU0hII/AAAAAAAAAAc/eB1_hnP758g/s200/Hillary-Tata+Smooch.jpg

Here's more about Hillary and her not really caring about outsourcing American jobs.

Hillary Clinton made it apparent where she stood on outsourcing during her India visit, in an attempt perhaps to clear the Indian misgivings received during the Kerry campaign. "There is no way to legislate against reality. Outsourcing will continue," she told an audience of Indian big-wigs. She pointed out that there were 3 billion people who feel left behind and are trying to attack the modern world in the hope of turning the clock back on globalization. "It is not far-fetched to imagine ... if the Indian miracle would be the one of choice of those who feel left behind," said Hillary.

Hillary has been at the forefront in defending free trade and outsourcing. During the height of the anti-outsourcing backlash in the US last year, she faced considerable flak for defending Indian software giant Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) for opening a center in Buffalo, New York. "We are not against all outsourcing; we are not in favor of putting up fences," Hillary said firmly, despite inevitably invoking the ire of the anti-free trade brigade.

Hillary further clarified her position during her recent visit as well as solutions that could be beneficial to both countries. She urged Indian industries to invest more in the US to allay negative outpourings over outsourcing of American jobs to India. "I have to be frank. People in my country are losing their jobs and the US policymakers need to address this issue," she said. She ruled out that the anti-India feeling was a reflexive reaction, and explained that the feeling was more because of the imbalance in trade between the two countries, which in turn caused anguish among Americans about the nature of the economic relationship.

"In 2003, US merchandise exports to India was $5 billion, while India exports to the US was $13.8 billion. Though the US understood that the economic vibrancy of India was in its own interest, there are people who feel left behind and might stir up negative feelings against India because they do not understand the economic benefits of outsourcing," Clinton remarked.

"If the feeling was to be arrested, Indian companies should invest more in the US to create a balance in trade relations," she said. Hillary added that she had personally wooed Indian companies to establish partnerships with American counterparts. "In June 2002, TCS partnered with the University of Buffalo to bring patented research to the market place. I would like to see more of such partnerships," she said.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html

Her entire career in upstate New York has been of a piece in a series of token gestures, creating 10 token window-dressing American jobs for Tata Consulting in Buffalo (what a great trade -- there are more than 10 Indian consultants right now just in my cubicle cluster in Albany!!). It's endemic up here, cheap token gestures like renaming empty streets leading to dead malls and empty office campuses "Computer Avenue" and "Silicon Way"; pointless PR campaigns "re-branding" upstate New York as "Tech Valley"; setting up a local non-union "Charter School" in technology with enrollments of 40 kids who probably spend more time being photographed with politicians than learning."


The comment came in response to a very important story of how the Clinton campaign was actively seeking the support of key U.S. and foreign "big money" in the Offshore Outsourcing business. The article referenced appeared in the LA Times, "Clinton woos the outsourcers feared by U.S. workers". This article is also well worth a read, essentially underscoring the tremendous reality lost in the much misunderstood Obama campaign claim that Hillary Clinton was essentially representing the interests of the Indian offshore outsourcing business elites.

Here's one fine quote from the article which gives some indication of how offshore outsourcing money is helping to power the Hillary Clinton campaign:

"Clinton is successfully wooing wealthy Indian Americans, many of them business leaders with close ties to their native country and an interest in protecting outsourcing laws and expanding access to worker visas. Her campaign has held three fundraisers in the Indian American community recently, one of which raised close to $3 million, its sponsor told an Indian news organization.

But in Buffalo, the fruits of the Tata deal have been hard to find. The company, which called the arrangement Clinton's "brainchild," says "about 10" employees work here. Tata says most of the new employees were hired from around Buffalo. It declines to say whether any of the new jobs are held by foreigners, who make up 90% of Tata's 10,000-employee workforce in the United States."

The quote from John Miano at the Programmer's Guild reminds me very much of the criticisms faced by Harris Miller in last year's Virginia Dem. primary:

"It's just two-faced," said John Miano, founder of the Programmers Guild, one of several high-tech worker organizations that have sprung up as outsourcing has expanded. "We see her undermining U.S. workers and helping the offshoring business, and then she comes back to the U.S. and says, 'I'm concerned about your pain.' "

TATA or TCS, the Indian Offshore Outsourcing and H-1b bodyshop mentioned in the article imports thousands of Indian guest workers into the US to facilitate offshore outsourcing of jobs to India or replace American workers in the U.S. with imported Indian workers also in the U.S. The key in both cases is the so-called "guest worker" programs (e.g., H-1b, L-1) supposedly created because of "shortages of American workers" (a widespread myth concocted at great effort and cost by outsourcing and anti-worker lobbies).

Hillary Clinton is all about LIES -- lies propping up bigger lies to help make the rich and powerful more rich and more powerful leading to the sort of sharply reduced living standards for the majority of Americans now increasingly in evidence all over the U.S.

http://modernpatriot.blogspot.com/2007/09/hillary-clinton-supports-destruction-of.html


PLEASE RECOMMEND IF YOU THINK THE ISSUE OF OUTSOURCING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THIS PHONY PLAGIARISM CHARGE
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. But, this election is about HOPE, if you bring in FACTS, well then
you just destroy the hope that many have that Obama is about to self-destruct.

OH! The Irony! :sarcasm:
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The Lady Who Married the Man From Hope Hopes the New Man of Hope Hopefully Makes a Mistake SOMEWHERE
Hope-a-hope!

There's no hope without hope...
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I'm hoping to be hopeful about the current guy from Hope stopping the dope
from Arizona but I'm also hopeful that hope doesn't become just soap to sell. It'd make me sick to see hope on a rope.
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
89. Well, then, Mr. Patrick should be running for President.
Maybe he will eventually but all his best lines will have been used.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Spin it all ya want...it's still plagiarism if the source is not credited.
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Windy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. what about yes we can and change? Hillary guilty? n/t
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. Yes we can is not Obama's slogan
It is a slogan he stole from the United Farmworkers Union who has had it for a long time.
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Alhena Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Not in a political speech- they are written by speechwriter and advisers
all the time. Patrick is a de facto adviser to the Obama campaign.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
61. Speechwriters are acknowledged, and speechwriters do not GIVE those same speeches.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Then, meet Hillary
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Its not plagiarism if you have been given permission to use it aswell been told no credit needed
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Exactly. Let's try that case in court and see how long before the judge throws it out
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 02:03 PM by Dems Will Win
the media should be ashamed of themselves...
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. PLUS OBAMA GAVE CREDIT TO PATRICK IN DECEMBER FOR USING HIS LINES
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
42. how many hundreds of times does he have to give credit
just wonderin..
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. a rather good question, i'd say he kinda covered himself in december
since he commented back then that both him and Patrick tended to borrow lines from eachother
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. Oh, calm down.
You made it sound like he stole MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech.

Give it up!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. yes your 100% correct and he also didn't correctly identify Thomas Jefferson
as writing "We hold these truths to be self evident"


You really don't expect to get to the Whitehouse with something this lame no do you?
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. actually it isn't
as a writer you can say "use my words". That is what speech witers do all the time. Otherwise almost every political speech we hear would have an attribution to the staff writer and they don't. Plagiarism is using another's words with neither attribution nor consent. In this case, the words were used at the writer's direct suggestion.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
100. Crap!
I've been through law school, and studied intellectual property.

It's only a good copyright or trademark case, in Federal Court, if someone's registered the phrase or art in question, and can avail themselves of the courts.

Secondly, people take things and use them all of the time, particularly if a friend or speechwriter says that it is o.k.

I wouldn't hang my hat on this.
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
103. You mean everytime hillary uses a line by a speach writer it is plagiarism?
I don't think that is the definition. Although if that is the argument then there is lots of backlash to hillary. They should let this one sleep.
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yourguide Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Nothing personal
But I dont think anyone here wants to see Hillary and her tata's
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pauldg0 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
54. Neither one cares a rats as about us..it's about them only....
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 11:35 PM by pauldg0
...Is there any way that we can just shut these two up. They're continually at it.

This is what we are going to get for our nominee!!!!??? I am just pissed off at the public for including these two clowns as our potential candidate to run for the Democratic party.

What a joke.

Folks, is there any way we could get John Edwards on the ballot for our upcoming party convention? If there are any Edwards folks still out there, do not support any of these two people. They don't deserve one more ounce of any body's attention.

Can Al Gore come in and straighten them all out? It is embarrassing !! How could this possibly happen. God bring John Edwards back somehow. The New Hampshire for Al Gore endorsed John Edwards. I am sure other groups similar like John Edwards as well.

I'm just pissed off with these two Morons!!
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. Since neither Clinton nor Obama seem likely to reach the 2025 elected delegates
needed for the nomination, maybe we should nominate Deval Patrick.

Why go for Charlie McCarthy when you can have Edgar Bergin?
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. K & R
:kick:
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks, kicked and recommended.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. No, we can not get back to the issues.
This nonsense is vitally important!!!! We have to fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here! Ooops...just plagiarized *

:sarcasm:

K/R


Peace:thumbsup:
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Why is it the truth always hurt Hillary and her supporters
I think that's something that should be considered by all.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
95. The Truth!!!
Obama gave that speech, and allowed the audience to believe the words were his and his alone....The Truth!
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BigDDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. That Obama, he's sooooooo
"authentic."

:rofl:
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yup - he's a regular Martin Luther King Jr. Jr. he is.
Sorry if Hil just doesn't measure up to that.

She would have won if Obama had not shown up I guess, altho JRE would have had a much stronger run and might have beaten her!
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. TSK TSK TSK EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES
Seems if someone says other peoples words he should say it is other peoples words, after all if the other person said he could use them...don't you think..but any old excuse can be thrown in there, what's a good old lie.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. he did say it was other peoples words...
so what say you now
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #43
69. WHY IS HE USING RECYCLED SPEECHES??
WHY would he even NEED to do that?
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. kick
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. Of course, because its ok to cheat as long as the cheatee says it is OK
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 02:27 PM by Tarc
:rofl:

The excuse machine is going into overdrive now as the Obamaniacs adapt the Rovian "scream a lie loud enough..." defense. Look through the current topics now and you will see insipid just about Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence, Clinton's "It Takes a Village", and so on. The hope is that they can flood as much nonsense onto the airwaves as possible in order to drown out the original, and make it look nonsensical by comparison.

Which, unfortunately for those who can still see (and care about) the truth, it isn't nonsense at all.

I've been loathe to deploy the "cult" tag before, but today it seems like there is no better descriptor for what is going on here.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. You need to look up the definition of "Plagiarism", Tarc....
Go to dictionary.com. Look it up.


You'll see that in order for a charge of plagiarism to be true, it must be an UNAUTHORIZED use of someone else's words.

Since Patrick AUTHORIZED the use, no plagiarism exists.



I know that this gets in the way of your world view.... but it is only plagiarism if Patrick didn't authorize it. That's the unequivocal truth.


Something that Clinton supporters aren't comfortable with.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep better at night, skippy
Obama gave a speech that was not his own.
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
105. And every word every other politician says is all their own, written by them.
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 01:26 PM by dbonds
riiiiiiiiight. The truth is Obama set down with his friend who had been confronted with the same attack hillary was using against obama. Deval told him this is how he handled it and he should do it like this. It isn't a whole speach, it is one response. And the guy he 'recycled' the concept (concept - it wasn't line for line) suggested he do it. There is no 'there' there (or is it there is no spoon? or am I plagiarizing by referencing a movie)
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
62.  Mine---The American Heritage College Dictionary---says
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 02:05 AM by WinkyDink
nothing about "authorized":
"To use and pass off as one's own (the ideas or writings of another); To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another)."

PERMISSION must be acknowledged, not tacit. Moreover, it is not an "I said it for one speech three months ago. Jeez Louse!" kind of thing.

But college and high school students everywhere thank you.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
87. no i am sorry but you are wrong...it doesn't matter if the originator authorizes..
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 09:23 AM by flyarm
the person repeating the other persons words must still give credits to the originator.

do you really believe the rest of us are as gullible or ignorant as you are about Plagiarizing?

many of us are parents here..we have gone through this with our kids while they were in school..we have checked their papers , we have helped explain to them what copying others work means..

we have sat in college prep classes with them..to know what the consequences of Plagiarism is..

most of us here have gone to high school and many college..we are all aware of the consequences of plagiarism.

please do not insult our intelligence.

plagiarizing

http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/home-aol.htm
plagiarize



Main Entry: pla·gia·rize
Pronunciation: \ˈplā-jə-ˌrīz also -jē-ə-\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): pla·gia·rized; pla·gia·riz·ing
Etymology: plagiary
Date: 1716
transitive verb
: to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source
intransitive verb
: to commit literary theft : present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source



pssssss if you are in college today..i beg you to turn in a paper with your definition of plagiarism...you will find yourself either expelled or failed.

and Obama's school..what he did is considered plagiarism..and the consequences at Harvard law..expulsion
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #87
106. And every politician always credits their speech writers
:sarcasm:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
97. Absolutely NOT plagiarism. Recycled, unoriginal, like buying a term paper online.
Obama totally has Axlerod's permission to use Axlerod's lines. No question about it.

And he delivers them BEAUTIFULLY, exactly as if they came straight from his heart and mind.

Many, many actors have delivered their lines just as beautifully. All it takes is talent. And Obama's got talent. No question.

"Sincerity. When you can fake that, you've got it made." I'll credit George Burns with those lines. But I'm sure he stole them from an impeccable source.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #97
120. go right ahead and buy that term paper on line and turn it in..
turn that right into a professor ..i dare you..and when that professor scans it for plagiarism ..you will get an F for your course..and probably be put on probation and terminated from the college.

so go right ahead..you get caught... it will be on your record for life!!

its called cheating..Obama knows all about it..he went to Harvard Law that wrote most of the rules for plagiarism...

you argument is worse than silly..he admitted it.

fly
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stahbrett Donating Member (855 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. This is all that the Clinton campaign can do - desperate times call for desperate measures! (nt)
Edited on Mon Feb-18-08 02:30 PM by stahbrett
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. she needs to be tossed from the party..
we dont need this crap
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. Of course he did! He also endorsed Obama.
:eyes: Yes, we believe you, Deval...we believe you...no REALLY, we do!:eyes:

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. Well then this seems to me that Patrick offered himself as a speech writer?
Next ....
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Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. Good post. Finally some sanity.
So what if another politician functioned as a speech writer for Obama. Does Clinton acknowledge every speech writer she has during each speech. What's the difference. Patrick isn't on Obama's payroll. He's a volunteer. But he still gave permission to Obama to quote the same quotes he did.

Clinton is showing desperation if she's making an issue of this nonsense. I'm losing respect for her by the minute. That's sad.

About a week ago, I said I'd cheerfully vote for either Obama or Clinton in the general. Now, I've gone to believing that I'll have to hold my nose and vote for HRC only to stop McCain.
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lukebc Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
63. Clinton = democratic GE candidate = ME voting Green or Peace&Freedom

NO WAY IN HEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLL WILL I VOTE FOR A CLINTON FOR A WHITE HOUSE IN NOVEMBER 2008.....if I want royalty I can go to England and worship the queen......

I WOULD vote for A-N-Y Democratic candidate in the November general election but I will NOT vote for a candidate that ****KNOWS**** they are ENTITLED to the presidency of the United States. The bush's considered themselves ENTITLED to the presidency of the United States and look what george w. MONKEY did to us!
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Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
114. My only problem with doing the same is...
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 03:29 PM by Unbowed
McCain.

He's insane. He may be a true American hero. He suffered in a horrible, prison camp. But he's not all there anymore. McCain will start WWIII if he gets a chance.

And I don't even want to speculate who he will choose as a running mate. These are the things nightmares are made of.

McCain Lieberman
McCain DeLay
McCain Gingrich
....etc.
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kingsbridge777 Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. Obama is unauthentic (first campaign finance, now this)
First, Barack Obama fills out a questionnaire asking if he would abide by campaign finance.

If you are nominated for President in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in presidential public financing system?

You answered this question as follows:

OBAMA: Yes. I have been a long-time advocate for public financing of campaigns combined with free television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests.


Now we learn that Obama did not give Patrick credit for his passage, regardless of whether or not Patrick gave him "permission".

Is Obama an authentic politician? These events sure don't make him seem like one.

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Medusa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Bump
this thread to Page 1!
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mckeown1128 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. Fight the dirty campaign tactics....
KICK AND REC this. Let's make sure everyone hears this.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Plus Obama in December PUBLICLY announced he was using Deval's lines!
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CookCountyResident Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
88. Clinton Plans to Target Obama's Pledged Delegates
Clinton Plans to Target Obama's Pledged Delegates

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/02/19/clinton_plans_to_target_obamas_pledged_delegates.html

Sen. Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign "intends to go after delegates whom Barack Obama has already won in the caucuses and primaries if she needs them to win the nomination," Roger Simon reports.

"This strategy was confirmed to me by a high-ranking Clinton official on Monday. And I am not talking about superdelegates, those 795 party big shots who are not pledged to anybody. I am talking about getting pledged delegates to switch sides."

The reason: "Pledged delegates are not really pledged at all, not even on the first ballot. This has been an open secret in the party for years, but it has never really mattered because there has almost always been a clear victor by the time the convention convened."
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. Kicked and recommended.
God forbid that a couple of politicians who support each other should collaborate and borrow good material.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. That would make a good picture for an Ohio ad.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. I sent it to the campaign
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candice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
36. Axelrod is/was the "genius" behind both Obama's and Patrick's campaigns....
...candidates with weak resumes but lots of hopeful rhetoric.

http://www.thecjpoliticalreport.com/deval_patrick_a_cautionary_tale.htm

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/12/bay_state_voters_know_their_limits/

...but the voters of Mass. may have learned their lesson about hope versus experience and voted for Hillary in spite of the Kennedy/Kerry endorsement of Obama.

They fell for the hope/aspiration and it didn't pan out. Hope is kind of slippery and can be whatever you want it to be:

It’s time to put our cynicism down. Put it down. Stand with me and take that leap of faith. Because I’m not asking you to take a chance on me. I’m asking you to take a chance on your own aspirations. Take a chance on hope.” (Patrick, the other Axelrod candidate).


"In the eyes of many voters, Patrick's biggest initiative - the thing he is really fighting for - is a plan to raise revenues by building three casinos. This has given hope to those who love slot machines and blackjack, or are unusually focused on the state revenue picture. But it has given absolutely no hope to those who suffer from gambling addictions, worry about traffic, or think casinos are tawdry."

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Do you live here?
If so, do you know where the proposed casino's are located? If you have such a problem with casino's what do you think about Connecticut? Isn't New Hampshire trying to get some casino's going as well? Should we outlaw bars because there are alcoholics?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
37. kick
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
40. How DARE you inflict facts upon the latest spin from them?
They spent hours prepping CNN and MSNBC on the issue, and you want to take it away, with FACTS?

boy.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
41. i hope clintons followers feel like idiots..
they should.
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protect our future Donating Member (786 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
45. The Hillary people do not care about the truth of the matter. It is because
the Wisconsin primary is tomorrow.

If the stink about Obama's so-called plagarism can win the Wisconsin primary for Hillary, so be it. That is the thinking of her campaign.

Once the plagarism attack has been proven false, it will not matter. Wisconsin will be a done deal.

Will Hillary's attack on Obama work tomorrow?
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
47. kick
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BringBigDogBack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
48. K&R
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
50. kick
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Blue_State_Elitist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
51. Whether or not it is plagiarism is insignificant.
What is important is that it shows that his campaign isn't wholly genuine. Obama is an actor reading off canned Axelrod phrases.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #51
68. it certainly begs the question
why the F*** he is using recycled speeches and I am shocked so many DUers think this is just dandy
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
52. Here's yet another slogan Hillary can try: "Hillary'08. We Got Nothin.'"
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
55. How can you plagiarize something that EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT! Sheesh, Hillary.
:crazy:
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #55
90. The point is that Obama is building his image upon his oratory.
Which may mean that what we see and hear is NOT what we will get.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
56. What would you expect Deval Patrick to say?
He is an Obama supporter so of course he is going to give him cover now that it has come up. The real issue here is that Obama can't give a speech with any specifics other than "hope" and "change". Now it turns out even his banal generalities are taken from somewhere else.
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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Wrong.
You need to check your facts. Obama has admitted publicly to using elements of Deval's speeches since at least December. As to him being non-specific...it's a laughable argument. He has made public statements in nearly every speech and released literature which is readily available and gives very specific details about his plans should he win the presidency.
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mckara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-18-08 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
57. The SAME OLD GAME of the Clinton Operation
Isn't time to turn the page of history and find a better way to run our country? :argh:
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
108. I agree.
Before I though of hillary as a lesser, but acceptable alternative. This has really given me a bad taste. What they are doing here is dividing the party (more of that 50 plus 1 shit).
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Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
59. K&R
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
60. Lots of things more important than this
In fact, just about everything
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
64. AND, Patrick is one of Obama's national campaign co-chairs
Isn't it the job of campaign chairs to work with a candidate to develop campaign themes?
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
65. AND, many of Obama's current themes originated with Obama in 2004.
The reality is that Patrick used many of Obama's 2004 campaign strategies in his 2006 campaign. Patrick himself acknowledges this. They are good friends and have worked together and shared ideas for many, many years, as two people who very closely share perspectives on things.

This controversy is completely manufactured.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
66. that still does not answer the question
why the F*** is someone currently as high-profile as Mr. Obama using RECYCLED SPEECHES? Very poor form INDEED. :thumbsdown:
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. It Was In Response To Recycled Rhetoric From A Lesser Candidate
:eyes:
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #67
83. This should be posted again to give everyone a clear picture as to just HOW MUCH was copied
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
70. These fools are actually arguing that Obama stole from his OWN campaign!!!
What a joke!!!

I mean, you morons do realize that Patrick is one of Obama's national campaign chairs, don't you?!?
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
71. Thanks Dems
:yourock:
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
72. It has been very disappointing to watch
Hillary recently. First the whole "talk is cheap" thing, now "plagiarism". We all know that the Hillary is smart enough to know what plagiarism is and that they know this isn't even close, so what are they leaving us to think about them? Same old political nonsense as normal. As for speaking ONLY in your own words - Hillary has a staff of speech writers and advisers also, just like every major political candidate - does she or any politician give credit to their speech writers after they give a speech? NO. Nice to see that she has no problem what so ever trying the same spin that shows no respect for the American people. She needs to clean up her act.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 05:09 AM
Response to Original message
73. It looks like desperation on Hillary's part
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 05:11 AM by Raine
and makes her look petty and pathetic but apparently it's the "best" she has to go with. x(

Edit: spelling
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. It does look like desperation
but it's also fairly disgraceful. Isn't this what EVERYBODY at DU dislike the GOP for - floating out nonsense attacks in the hope of playing off the ignorance of the general public. This is just the Hillary camps version of "swift-boating" - seriously.
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
75. It is still plagariasm...if you turn in homework from another with "permission"
to use it and the assumption is that you wrote it, it's plagiarism. Obama had an obligation to say, "As my friend Partrick has expressed." or some such credit. If Hillary lies, then two wrongs don't make a right, and she has been accused of planting questions.

Basically, Obama was dishonest about the speech.

I plan to vote for the Democratic candidate, but some on this site have lost all sense of perspective. Some also seem pretty unaware of politics as usual.

I just hope that the GOP doesn't steal the election AGAIN.
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. They all use speechwriters - None of their words are their own
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 06:47 AM by rox63
You think Hillary stays up late at night slaving over the text of her next speech? Nope, she's got speechwriters to take care of that.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Hillary can answer questions on the fly without hesitating.
She proved that in the televised debates, where she did better than Obama.

Maybe that's why Obama didn't want another debate between Super Tuesday and Feb 19th?
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. I believe that Obama used to teach college, he'd give a student an F for that..
What Hillary does is irrelevant. All the candidate's speech writers are published and well-known (acknowledged). Obama was dishonest to not state that he was using Patrick's words, permission or not. This is a no-brainer. I'm still going to vote for the Democratic candidate, but Obama is setting himself up for attacks from the GOP with this kind of thing. It's a judgment error.

What Hillary does is not the point of this thread...
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. He probably would
But then we aren't talking about a college paper are we. . .? Really simple once you get over it.
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #85
119. Doesn't matter to me...but the GOP will use these things to derail him.
Obama needs to avoid giving ammunition to those who will eventually use it against him. It's still bad judgment no matter what.
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aaroh Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
76. its all fair game
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. It's all "the same speechwriter" and two close friends who share ideas and freely give to each other
Making an issue of this tripe (collaborations between friends and the same speechwriter) is smarmy beyond belief. :eyes:
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rox63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. Deval Patrick ran his campaign for governor on similar themes to those Obama is using
Hope, change, listening to the grassroots, and bringing all sides together. It was very successful as a campaign strategy. Patrick has advised Obama on how he worked that strategy, and how Obama can use it effectively. Patrick is acting as a campaign consultant for Obama. I see no problem with Obama using Patrick's phraseology, as long as Patrick gives his consent.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
79. OK then, how about if we call it RECYCLING?
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 07:02 AM by Apollo11
That should help to shore-up Obama's green credentials at the same time.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
82. Obamaspin once again! If I borrow a paper, research, speech from someone else
and it is not my words and DO NOT cite them IT IS PLAGIARISM!

Obama is not a naive student here... he is a lawyer. Ultimately make of it what you will politically, but it is plagiarism however you want to try to spin it.
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Voltaire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. So what if you are right
You think Hillary has never purloined other people's stuff for a speech? Or is it okay since she hasn't been outed for it?

I am candidate neutral in this thing, neither one is lefty enough for me. But the Clinton camp is looking petty with this thing.
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #82
91. But friends often quote one another without even considering attribution. Good grief.
I can't think of how many times in my life I've stayed up late into the night, exchanging ideas with with my friends. That's how some of the best ideas emerge. This accusation is so silly. He's not writing high school research papers. I don't care if Obama is 100% "original" or not. I only care if he has the good sense to gather the best of ideas from some of the best thinkers, and it seems he has. I don't see how he has done anything even remotely unethical and I suspect that his detractors are only feigning indignation about this whole thing.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. it is plagiarism!
http://www1.law.umkc.edu/Academic/plagiarism.htm

University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law
The urban public law school with a small liberal arts feel

snip:

Attribution and Citation
The words, phrases, ideas, citations and arguments of another may be used only when accompanied by proper attribution to the source. Note that it is not the use of another’s words, phrases, ideas, citations or arguments that is prohibited; it is the unattributed use that is prohibited.

In legal writing, proper attribution is usually accomplished by following "the bluebook"10 citation format. While the bluebook provides a consistent and comprehensive citation style and format for use by lawyers and other users of legal sources, the correct style and format of attribution is not usually as critical as the fact of correct attribution.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #94
96.  Obama did credit Deval on December 21, 2007 and did make attribution to Patrick
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/12/obama-scoffs-th.html

"But you know in the end, don’t vote your fears. I’m stealing this line from my buddy (Massachusetts Gov.) Deval Patrick who stole a whole bunch of lines from me when he ran for the governorship, but it’s the right one, don’t vote your fears, vote your aspirations. Vote what you believe."

He acknowledged two months ago that they borrow each other's lines.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
92. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... Clinton: Insert Foot in Mouth
AGAIN
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SunnyDays Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
93. At the very least it takes the gloss off this great "NEW" candidate....
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 09:50 AM by SunnyDays
what a phony he is...this is just the surface crap. Insidious. Almost like a cloned package.

You don't sell someone else's lines/campaign as yours unless you clearly state it is what you are doing everytime you open your mouth to parrot someone....using a phrase, that is common phrase, occasionally is an entirely different matter. But lifting whole sections of speeches??? And mentioning it once in December isn't enough. It's a cover, but it misleads everyone who hasn't heard a cover buried many news cycles ago (and which was probably ignored by most media anyway).

How about THIS ISSUE??? Caving in to Exelon and not telling the questioner in Iowa that your original bill was sold out, by YOU (Obama)??
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From The Left Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
98. It's a Non-Story Cooked Up By the Clintonistas
Team Hillary is desperate. She was up 20 points in Texas a month ago. Now, she's up only 2 points.
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No Blood for Hubris Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. What, John McCain is a Clintonista? News to me. McCain's all
over the plagiarism thing -- go google it. Started last week. Before the Deval Patrick affair.
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JKaiser Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
99. IT"S still copying..
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
101. It's obviously not plagiarism.
It's another Big Lie from some very dishonest, seedy people.
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Araxen Donating Member (826 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
102. THE FACTS DON'T COUNT
Come on man, don't burst her bubble!!!!
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
104. PAthetic that he couldn't come up with his own ideas
tsk, tsk
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No Blood for Hubris Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Words DO matter. Ideas DO matter. Hope hype is just hype.
McCain has already criticized Barack for plagiarizing Hillary's economic plan. Edwards complained about Barack plagiarizing his ideas. Now he uses Patrick's words as if they were his own. Character issues? Yuh. Issues like - all spin, with no specifics? You don't think the pubs will be all over this?


Haven't we had enough of Emperor's New Clothes guys?
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. Abe Lincoln wrote his own speeches and I will accept nothing less
Edited on Tue Feb-19-08 01:50 PM by eowyn_of_rohan
Who will the next Abe Lincoln be? :( Will we recognize him? Was he Kucinich?
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #111
117. then you must find Hillary very disappointing (Yes we will!)
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
110. Hey, do any Hillary supporters want to talk about outsourcing?
No?
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
112. I for one never said it was plagiarmism,
but it is dishonest and politics as usual.

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angrypoet Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
113. Just absurd
That people are willing to beat this issue to death. HRC people are so willing to split hairs on this is amusing to me.

First and foremost, Mr.Patrick and BHO have worked together for several years and Mr. Patrick has an official position with BHO's campaign as the national co-chair. It is public knowledge that they have worked together for years and have helped each other with speeches for years. Mr. Patrick has directly quoted BHO in the past. BHO has publicly stated the contribution of Mr.Patrick in he past. There is NOTHING awkward about this situation.

Second, many HRC supporters are attempting to hold BHO to a hardline definition of plagiarism that typically only applies in the academic world and then only with written work. In the world of politics and speeches and consultants and speech writers and repetitive messages such a hardline definition is impractical and absurd. If that were the standard than, yes, EVERY TIME, a speaker would have to acknowledge EVERY speech writer and EVERY consultant and would have to acknowledge EVERY TIME, if they intended to speak a speech that they happened to have spoke before because, by the hardline definition, you can also be guilty of self-plagiarism as well.

Don't try to wiggle and squirm out of the issue of your own making either. You have screamed to the hills over this and clearly made the point that you have to acknowledge words that you did not speak or write yourself. This is the standard you have set. This is the proposed standard that the HRC campaign has set. I expect to hear a legal disclaimer before each and every speech of every consultant's name and each and every speech writer's name.

Either a standard applies in every case and in every situation or you have to be willing to acknowledge that speeches are just a different animal and you cannot treat it like academic writing.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:51 PM
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115. kick
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 03:52 PM
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116. Political speeches are in the public domain
this is stupid. it IS news, but it IS stupid.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-19-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. It's the Stupidity, Stupid
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-20-08 02:23 AM
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121. The scandal blew up in Hillary's face. It's over.
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