If Hillary can't beat Obama how can she beat McCain?

[ButterflyBlood]

Remember back when she as Mrs. Inevitable? How her bashers were told to shut up because she'd be the nominee, the end? Her overwhelming cash and establishment advantage?

Well she blew all that. To a political novice. Her campaign since Feb. 5 has the most inept and dreadful I've ever seen. Her entire strategy now appears to be to argue that any state Obama wins doesn't count for some reason and just to wait for states she's favored in (which do count.) Doesn't work in the GE. If Hillary could lose with her MASSIVE advantages, how can she be the stronger candidate? She's proven she can't run a campaign.

[Independent-Voter]

1. Answer: She Can't.

[rug]

2. Because you can't effectively attack your own clone. McCain is not.

[MethuenProgressive]

3. McCain would never Swiftboat Clinton on Race, so she'd beat him easily.

[Occam Bandage]

11. lol. If there's anything the last few elections have proved, it's that the

Republicans would never stoop lower than the Clinton campaign did this campaign season. They're pure as angels.

Er, wait, Obama. I keep forgetting that you try to pin Clinton's Great SC Backfire on Obama. Same point regardless.

[JeanGrey]

15. No. I'm sorry, but she would not. Poll after poll shows it.

[jackson_dem]

23. Polls also showed President Dukakis, President Bush 43 (by 11 points), and President Kerry

What happened when the "new" candidate faced the fire of the other party?

[JeanGrey]

27. Look I remember those things as well. Those polls weren't

showing that for long! Do you really think that right into election time the polls showed Dukakis winning? Please!

Hillary's negatives have been around forever.

[JeanGrey]

29. I also don't remember any polls showing Kerry winning by any

huge margin close to election day. We all knew it was going to be close and most polls were within margins of error, unless you're talking about "exit" polls which I never rely on.

[jackson_dem]

32. That's my point!

He led by 8 at this point in 2004 and lost by 3. Bush 00 also suffered an 11 point loss from now to November. This is what happens when the "new" candidate's honeymoon ends and he is attacked by the other party. Obamites seem to think Obama is immune to this...

Dukakis led by 17 in August, lost by 7...

[JeanGrey]

37. Lost by 7? What did Dukakis only "lose" by 7? He was

crushed.

Dukakis NEVER HAD A CHANCE.

[Voice for Peace]

45. I think Obama may be immune to this, based on how he's responding to Clinton's & others' criticisms

[karynnj]

33. 2004 was never seen as a big Democratic win

In Dec 2003, Bush was at 60% approval and was beating generic Democratic by double digits and Dean by 20 points. There was a time in spring 2004, as Kerry won the primaries that he polled ahead of Bush. The images of Kerry with Rassman and the firefighters in each victory speech were attractive - and why the SBVT were created.

In a way, Kerry is a victim of having been pretty successful - he was good enough that he made it very close and convinced people he could win - thus the hurt and anger when he lost an unfair race. Remember that the Clintons in 2003 did not think Bush was beatable.

[JeanGrey]

60. Exactly. I voted for Kerry but I was never deluded that he was

actually going to WIN. As much as I hated it I knew Bush was going to win. I don't know how to say it except that Kerry wasn't "presidential". He didn't come off that way. He didn't have "it". The "it" that is carrying Obama and carried John Kennedy. Bush didn't either but we were at war and he was still fairly popular. It would've taken a very charismatic candidate (as the big dog was) to pull that off.

[Independent-Voter]

38. Kerry and Dukakis had the personality and charism of a lump of mud. Horrible candidates

[JeanGrey]

61. THANK YOU!!!! Exactly. You put it blunter than I did but same

ol, same ol.

[Colobo]

16. Obama never swifboated Hillary on anything. Bill Clinton and some

stupid surrogates like Bob Johnson ran their mouths and black America rejected them.

[jackson_dem]

26. Yeah, she went from leading among blacks to 12-15% by sheer coincidence

Obama used the ugliest tactics to win, assuming he holds on and takes the nomination.

[LoZoccolo]

28. Oh that's beautiful spin, beautiful.

It didn't have anything to do with what her supporters said.

[stahbrett]

42. Not "sheer coincidence" - it was the "shucking and jiving" and "jesse jackson" crap

And that did not come from the Obama campaign.

[JeanGrey]

62. Oh COME ON now. Be honest with yourself. South Carolina

really, REALLY made them mad. Plus they have a candidate of their OWN.
Are you surprised?

[LoZoccolo]

21. If the Republicans start swiftboating on race they are fucked.

They won't do it. If they expose themselves as too hideous they open themselves up for massive vengeance.

[Independent-Voter]

41. This is the year of the pissed-off middle and independents. Playn' the race card ain't going to work

Bill Clinton found out that in SC.

[JeanGrey]

63. The republicans are fucked anyway. Obama is going to

make McCain look like Dukakis.

[Lerkfish]

51. just keep playing that race card, its working out so well for your candidate, isn't it?

and if the race card does not work against Obama from Clinton, it will REALLY not work coming out of Mccain's campaign.

look, its time to wake up and start smelling logic again. come back into the light. You guys tried to throw everthing, including the kitchen sink, and it didn't work. wake up.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

68. Yeah, the Republicans have never effectively "Swiftboated" a lily-white candidate

Except...oh wait...they did! :eyes:

[maddiejoan]

4. Right

I'm sure McCain's inspiring oratory and his vast appeal to disaffected youth hoping for a bright tomorrow will absolutely bury Hillary.

[JeanGrey]

19. I don't think you realize that the young are coming out to vote

because there is a candidate that makes them care enough to do so. Had it been McCain/Hillary not many would've. It would have been old school and McCain would defeat her. And I'm not ready for another eight years of republicans, thanks! We may never recover from the last eight.

[maddiejoan]

34. I don't think you realize

that you are wrong.

[JeanGrey]

39. Yeah I can see from the delegate count how wrong I am.

[maddiejoan]

48. I see

so what you are saying is all those young people who want change --would just sit home if Hill is the nominee?

okay.

right --or maybe they'll vote for McCain?

:rolleyes:

[cali]

50. My 21 year old son

and many of his friends have been volunteering for Obama. He'd vote for Hillary if she were the nominee- but only because I'd reach up (he's 6'4) and grab his ear and drag him off to the polls. And I can't say the same for many of his friends. Whatever the reason, most seem to distrust her.

[JeanGrey]

64. Ding, ding, ding!!

[JeanGrey]

59. They wouldn't vote at all. Young people are nortorious for

not voting. I cannot tell you how many young people I've met that are voting and getting involved in politics for the fist time and for two reasons: Barack Obama. This is a GOOD thing. We're winning. Our party is winning and we're going to win the GE with a candidate that is pulling in EVERYONE.

[Independent-Voter]

43. Voters under 30 are overwhelming voting for Obama you dumbass

[maddiejoan]

46. In the Primaries

Dumbass

[Independent-Voter]

53. So you honestly think the youth vote is going to swing for HRC in the GE?

God damn, pass whatever shit you're smoking - it's got to be some good stuff.

If anything, voters under 30 will stay at home if it comes down to HRC / McCain.

[maddiejoan]

56. yeah

not so much.

[Cosmocat]

5. It would be a LOT tougher ...

Obama has the chance to win it going away ...

Hill, it would be VERY tight, and a blood battle ...

I live in Pa ... Obama has had a VERY dedicated guy organizing and campaigning for him in the central part of the state since LAST MAY ... I mean, all the fairs last summer with candidates setting up booths for LAST NOVEMBER's election, this guy had booths up for Obama ... Organizing like a fiend the whole time ... It was just in the paper today that a really great older party lady just fell into organizing for Hill this week after she made a phone call to ask about it ...

[billyoc]

6. Isn't it moot? If she can't win the primary, she won't face McCain.

:shrug:

[Benhurst]

7. Democratic primary vs. general election = very different constituencies

[ButterflyBlood]

10. But campaiging skill isn't

And Hillary's shown to have virtually none this campaign. If she did she would've buried Obama long ago.

[Onlooker]

8. Yes, that's the bottom line ...

... Obama has run a clever, but sleazy campaign, and that's what it takes to win. Obama may be a man without principle and stand for nothing, but he knows how to win. Let's get a Democrat in the WH, and then push Congress to make him liberal.

[JeanGrey]

22. Come on, please. Sleazy? I'm sorry but Sleazy describes

the attacks Hillary has done and there will be more.

[calmblueocean]

9. She has to beat Obama to beat McCain. If she can do the first, she can do the second.

I think either one can win against McCain. Bush is at 19%! But Hillary really is the underdog right now.

[JeanGrey]

25. What has Bush got to do with it? Nothing.

If the approval of the incumbent President meant anything to the follow up Gore would've won in a landslide.

[SIMPLYB1980]

12. Thats a nice pic. Have you seen this?

[Occam Bandage]

13. Yes. She blew a 30-point lead, 80% favorables among Dems, and $140 million. She is

absolutely terrible at campaigning, and the pre-Iowa repeated declarations (which I believed) that she was some sort of brilliant campaign mastermind running the tightest ship in history were so off-base as to perhaps constitute fraud.

[JeanGrey]

14. Look, I have to differ here. Saying that she ran a terrible

campaign is like saying that OJ got off because the prosecutors were bad. She didn't run a bad campaign, the fact is that she didn't have enough supporters to win from the very beginning. I don't know why people don't seem to get that Hillary has so much negative factor against her, more than any other candidate. She was only "inevitable" to herself and those that supported her - they discounted the many who would almost do anything to keep her (and by association, Bill) out of the white house again.

I truly and firmly believe that had she gotten the nomination, McCain would beat her. There is too large a contingent of people who are fed up with Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton. She also has so much corporate support and that turns off a lot of people, not to mention that many dems view her as too centrist.

I just wouldn't blame her "campaign" managers. They have done a good job with the huge amount of money they had. But people discounted Hillary's negatives and didn't realize that she would lose all of her black support to a true black candidate.

And, every single one of the people I know who dislike Hillary (and I know this is another anecdote) say they dislike her for the same reason. That she put up with Bill for her own ambitions and it really turned them off. They view her as someone who will do anything to get and keep power, even putting up with someone like her husband and all that humiliation for years in the public eye, and that she believes that what is best for her is what is best for everyone.

As far as her campaign goes, Bill hasn't helped her at all, he's hurt her, and every time he surfaces that brings back that negative factor I mentioned above about their marriage even if it is fair or not.

Hillary and Bill are the past. Obama is young, charismatic, and new. He is bringing the younger generation out and also taking Hillary's base from her.

This is what I thought would happen from the beginning.

Please don't flame me, I like Hillary, and supported her in the beginning. But I have always felt she could not win. And I still do.

I just hope that when the time comes she goes with class.

[Independent-Voter]

44. You speak the truth Grasshopper!

[JeanGrey]

66. Ah, shucks. :blush:

And I don't mean what I say in a negative way. Obama isn't my first choice either. But I want to win the WH!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

17. funny thing...they had Obama losing to McCain in GE by 13% pts on CNN this morning

[ButterflyBlood]

20. huh?

[Stuckinthebush]

24. Yeah, I'm doubting that too

Obama has consistently beaten McCain in polling.

Hillary hasn't.

[K Gardner]

18. DING DING DING.. we have a winner !

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. Actually, We Don't.

Try actually 'thinking' sometime. It may open up all sorts of doors for you...

[K Gardner]

47. Unprovoked personal attacks on posters all you got left? How sad.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. It Was A Legitimate Reply.

I see you haven't gotten there yet. In time I guess...

[Lerkfish]

52. wow. what an ironic post

:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. Nothing Ironic About It At All.

I'm one of the few left in GDP that actually CAN think. Lord knows, it's becoming a rarity.

[Lerkfish]

57. as I said, ironic.

since you can think, look up the definition, look at your post, and try to decipher my meaning.

good luck!

[mudesi]

70. Elaborate (nm)

[GarbagemanLB]

30. She has also proven how inept at managing she is. That plus her negativity rating would helpher lose

[noiretextatique]

35. if is the operative word

the race is not over yet.

[EndElectoral]

36. She can't as the polls show. And with the diviseness of the primary she has no hope.

[sellitman]

40. Maybe she hasn't run a bad campaign?

Maybe he just ran a better one?

[ButterflyBlood]

67. How has her post-Feb 5 campaign been anyhing but a disaster?

n/t

[Lerkfish]

49. "told to shut up because she'd be the nominee, the end"

yup, I remember that time.
I was castigated for not shutting up as I recall.

karma exists.

[Captain Hilts]

58. By standing on the same stage with him. That's all it would take for her to beat him. nt

[book_worm]

65. good question.

[mudesi]

69. EXCELLENT POINT (NM)