To the Obama Supporters: If you truly feel he's got it "in the bag":

[Tyler Durden]

Then it's far past time you started COURTING Clinton Supporters.

Obligatory Disclaimer: I dislike both of them.

That said, I am watching the Obama supporters (and to a much lesser extent, the Obama Campaign) make the same stupid mistakes that were made in 1971/72. With McGovern, we felt we had a candidate that the Youth would carry over the top. The problem is that you need 50.0001% of the vote, and without the Old, the Demi-hawks, the Johnson/Humphrey Democrats, WE DIDN'T HAVE IT. You're doing it again.

You can't win this without the general support of the party, and the support that Hillary Clinton has should tell you something:

YOU DON'T HAVE IT.

What will happen in the fall without the general support of the party will be that Barack Obama will be defeated. Items I've seen in the last 3 months bear this out:

*The valley girls saying some variation on "Barack is so HAWT!" is a beaut. Every time this sort of thing hits YOUTUBE, the entire Democratic party should cringe.

*The "Old Woman" Clinton slurs. Time to not stand there humming and twiddling your thumbs if you want older voters to support you. I've heard from Democratic Party Members that they think the country NEEDS an older, seasoned politician, and they don't buy the hope thing. You have to start making Obama look less like a Rock Star and more like The President.

*The continuations of the "Bridge to the 20th Century" boushwa. You know what? Things got pretty damned GOOD under Bill Clinton, and up until recently, if you wanted 200+ posts on a thread, you started with a "BILL CLINTON IS GREAT!" title or a variation on that theme. You may think the Republicans "Block up" but you have seen NOTHING until you've seen a disgruntled Bill Clinton Democrat. One word: NADER.

*DEMOCRATICPARTY, DEMOCRATICPARTY,DEMOCRATICPARTY,DEMOCRATICPARTY,DEMOCRATICPARTY. What am I saying? That I don't hear this coming out of Obama or his Campaign. If you want ex-Clinton supporters on board, then Party Loyalty makes points; I don't care HOW you feel about this that or the other thing you think Clinton or her campaign has done to assassinate Obama. Time to mend ties that bind. You're already late in starting.

There's more, but I'm repeating things you already know if you'd only be honest with yourselves.

Obama already has BAGGAGE DELUXE. Hell, you alienate every Veteran over the age of 40 just with that picture of him standing in front of the flag without hand over heart. Who cares that it's bullshit? Politicians have to kiss babies and wrap themselves in the flag. And this isn't the only thing he's got going that's weight: remember, he's alienated most of a couple of voting blocks (McClurkin) AND THE ANSWER ISN'T "WELL, HILLARY'S JUST AS BAD." Then you piss off TWO groups instead of trying to mend a bridge.

My point is that I've seen these mistakes before, and I've seen the result. There's still time to fix things, make peace with the Clinton Camp, and bring about some party unity. He ignores this not only at HIS peril, but OURS.

[RememberWellstone]

1. clap,clap,clap

Excellant post! You hit the nail(s) on the head IMO.

[Bigleaf]

11. You forgot point.

It's clap, clap, clap, point, clap, point, clap, clap, point......

[DUyellow]

41. LOL

[scheming daemons]

56. Also forgot "make clown eyes" and "cackle".....

...

[liberalnurse]

206. Obama will never get my vote unless he is the VP half of a ticket.

I will never lift a finger for him ever.

[aquart]

234. No. I sympathize completely, but no.

We have a Supreme Court to worry about and so much work to do. We are women and we are used to doing what's right even when men (and other women) make it almost impossible.

I will tell you what my sister said when I begged for something, anything to make me okay with it. She said, "Bush has left a scorched earth. Who do you want dealing with this awful mess, the first woman president or the first black president?"

The next president of the United States is going to be in misery day in day out. Because this nation has been looted by thieves. (And, like my dog Chippie, we helped the burglars carry the stuff out.)

[stickernation]

236. Chippie was framed !

Cheney did it !!!

[hendo]

169. Lady in the Yellow Jacket '08!

clap clap point point indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_WIqjj0WVA

[stillrockin]

178. that's funny

[Kahuna]

255. You forgot "clown eyes." It's; Clap clap, clown eyes, point point. Repeat. nt

:thumbsup:

[Ivote]

13. I still have to think about voting for him if he wins the nomination

First they came for the jews & I did not stand up rings in my mind......
And now they want me?

[snooper2]

2. This is just one website on the Internets....

I don't think anybody "courting" anybody here would make a damn bit of difference.....

[Tyler Durden]

16. It's all over the place out here.

Take some time and scan around. I read the news, I do TPM, KOS, etc. DAILY. I sift and sort.

This COURTING must take place NATIONWIDE. Don't always assume someone is talking about what goes on in our little sandbox.

[psychopomp]

126. This thread is B.S.

I am closer to fifty than to twenty. I have voted D all my life, including for a Clinton twice. I protested the 1990 Gulf War--in the streets. I am happy to see many other graying, wiser "elders" among Obama supporters. Sen. Obama is, by no means, a perfect candidate, but I believe he is the better choice for President of the United States.

You are forgetting that Sen. Obama leads Sen. Clinton in every demographic. I wonder why you continue to try to smear Obama supporters with the same broad brush, accusing us of inexperience and naiveté when we are, by and large, ordinary Democrats who happen to have made a choice other than your own?

[txaslftist]

139. hear, hear. And not just Democrats, either.

I have been very pleased to find out that most of the men in my church (a conservative one) are telling me they're going to vote for Obama. Not that I don't like Clinton (I do) but these are by and large mainstream Republicans. The idea that he only appeals to the young is just plain wrong.

We tend to think of Republicans as "evil". This may be true of the really really mean ones, but by and large they're just folks. Kinda like Barliman Butler could eventually see through a brick wall in time, even Republican voters are starting to see the reality and the real failure that has been the Bush presidency.

And nobody likes McCain. Not on their side, not on our side.

Obama will beat him like a drum.

[dorktv]

179. I heard people saying the same thing about Howard Dean.

And who is President now? Not Howard Dean.

[USAcitizen]

203. Absolutely

Democrats better stop being afraid of not winning and vote their hearts, not their heads. We will always lose if we continue to be too careful. He does have most of the popular vote. Hillary is a good person, but she can't beat McCain. Obama can.

[aquart]

245. The DEMOCRAT will beat McCain or any other Republican.

The "electability" issue is crap and has been from day one. If we count the votes, we win.

[Kahuna]

256. The best parts about Obama is the coattails he will deliver. I think

Hillary could eke out a win over McCain. But I don't think that voters will trust Billary with congressional majorities any more than they did the last time.

[RaleighNCDUer]

213. Well, the DLC actively worked against Dean, to put Kerry in the

top slot.

This time around we don't have the DLC working against us...

Oh.

Never mind.

[snappyturtle]

198. Count me in! I've just turned sixty and have seen many

presidential primary candidates. I have never found any candidate "perfect" including Sen. Obama....but he comes closer to my ideal. Nationwide? Take a look at the U.S. maps highlighting the states across the land that Sen. Obama has won=nationwide.

[mitchtv]

89. Oh Good God

a halo picture
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[RaleighNCDUer]

214. That's not a halo --

it's the head of the next president on a coin.

Right up there with FDR & JFK.

[mitchtv]

241. don't ya gotta be dead?

for a coin? I think so.

[Hutzpa]

102. WTF is that picture,

thats how you see him, that image IMO is very telling of you.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

118. That's how he sees himself also....

n/t

[stickernation]

237. i think the OP is trying to give general advice

not just advice to DU'ers.

i hope Obama supporters sync up with this attitude.

if your candidate wins, and probably even before, it would be smart to figure out how best to recapture sullen Clinton supporters. form a committee or something...

-s

[TwilightGardener]

3. You mistake DU for the real world. No one outside of the tubes cares

about you, me, our meaningless verbal spewings, or who we support or don't support. Jesus, delusions of grandeur.

[Eurobabe]

6. you said what I wanted to say

but I didn't want to be mean. :evilgrin:

[TwilightGardener]

9. LOL! I commend you for your restraint. I enjoy biting ankles.

[Tyler Durden]

20. YOU are talking about delusions of granduer?

I didn't see DU mentioned once in my OP. I'm talking about the NATION here.

Peel your face off the tube, wander around a grocery store or a Big Box, listen and talk. READ the news. We are ALL in deep shit here.

I like DU, but really, who gives a fuck in the long run whether or not this site is even HERE in a year? I'll miss a lot of you, but I have a REAL LIFE out here, and I'm in touch with it.

[TwilightGardener]

27. You posted this on DU. You insulted Obama supporters, on DU. You told

Obama supporters on DU that we must "court" Clinton supporters. If you think it matters, and will make a difference, then you're obviously a little misguided about the actual influence we have here.

[Tyler Durden]

33. I posted a general opinion on a political bulletin board.

You want to see me post it on "Liberal Michigan," "Daily KOS," or somewhere else? If I have the time from my lousy job, I will.

Don't assume the suggestion is local just because it was made here. Again, I suggest you look around outside of here: I do, all the time.

[Arkansas Granny]

109. Your reply reminds me of one of my all time favorite cartoons.

[paulk]

4. a good point -

anyone who thinks this November, from either camp, is going to be easy is living in dreamland. The last Democrat to get over 50% of the vote was Jimmy Carter, with 50.1%.

That was over 30 years ago...

[robbedvoter]

124. GOP-ers didn't win a national election since 1988 - that was 20 years ago

Had to correct you.
But the OP is 100% right.

[Eurobabe]

5. Most people aren't as big of a pain in the ass as DU'ers

Seriously, we represent such a teensy, weensy part of the population. When you subtract the trolls, and double, triple registrants, I wonder how many REAL DU'ers there really are on here.

I am not saying that neither camp needs the other, but...for some the damage is probably too far gone to heal. :shrug:

[NashVegas]

23. Most People Don't Have a Place to Vent, Like DUers

Ignore that at the Obama campaign's peril.

[AndyA]

7. Agreed.

The arrogance in the Obama camp is disturbing.

And I am reluctant to be associated with it in any way.

I do not support Hillary or Barack at this point, for what I feel are very good reasons, but I do fear we're going to wind up with President McCain if this sh!t doesn't stop.

The Obama people are the ones who really need to make the first move, since he's been in the lead and they are much worse at dishing out the cr@p than the Clinton people, and always have been.

[nvme]

156. Its not arrogance

Do you know what it is like to have been through the last 8 years of a loosing battle? to finally have a candidate that breathes life into this process? the record numbers of us turning out in every state? For us it is exuberance. It is entheusiasm. I have watched the repubs rally around their beliefs. now i rally around mine I am a liberal with centrist tendencies. So if this many does for me I will not curb my exuberance. I do not apologize for really hoping that he will win. I was not a big fan of ole BC. Nafta has hurt us the scandals have demoralized us. So I have heard Obama and yes he moves. but i will not relent in my support. nor will i apologize. He was the extreme underdog and he has to be taken seriously. I hope that the Clinton people will be supportive. I hope that this Primary cycle will end soon. I hope that Clinton looses OH and TX by narrow or even large margines. so that the country will unite. the Longer she choose to drag this out the longer it will hemorrage our party. her only option will be nuclear and if she tries crap with Michigan or Fl delegate she will rend the party. she will divide us too far where there will be an actual split. I had to suck on 7.5 years of bush. Perhaps 4 years of Obama not as bad as you think. I will fully support clinton if for some reason she pulls it out. I dont look like it though as days go on her chances seem more remote.

[RaleighNCDUer]

215. the Obama people have NOT been worst at dishing out the crap.

It's just that the Clinton people choose to blame the Obama people for every unkind hit she gets from the Kucinich, Edwards, Nader, Republican, LaRouche... That is, everyone ELSE who for their various reasons don't want HER to be the president.

Remember that base 45% unfavorable she has? Hate to break it to you, but they are NOT all Obama supporters.

[beezlebum]

226. arrogance in the obama camp, entitlement in the hillary camp...

:eyes: pishposh.

in the real world, only one person i know is as vitriolic towards either candidate as we are here (i admit i have been as well, but in terms of reality vs virtual reality...it's mostly venting, which, personally, is not at the core of my true feelings but surface crap i have to blow off), and he just forwarded me an email about a "top" psychiatrist who claims liberals are clinically insane, as per world net daily, if that tells you anything.

but as far as dems outside of the intartoobulars, and as i posted here the other day, republicans, i have heard a lot of people say that they will support either one. the only real bias i have heard is in regards to primaries and caucuses as to which they are leaning towards, and it's usually obama, but those same people are more or less eager to get a dem in office and will gladly support either candidate in november. none of them care about the subtle differences, or the DLC, or corporate/lobbyist donations, or neo-liberalism, or NAFTA, or arrogance vs entitlement. they are just ready to get rid of bush, and they don't want mccain.

i can't fucking wait till this is OVER!!

DEMS 2008!

[nomorewhopper]

8. he has more than clinton, thats for sure

EDITED to add: thanks for just another post that flames young people by equating them to "vally girls".

[Iceburg]

116. You are insulting women young feller/nt

[nomorewhopper]

148. i am a woman, duh

[pnwmom]

167. If you think Obama's going to win, then the onus is on him, not on anyone else.

[blogslut]

10. You claim that you dislike them both

Does that mean you'll be sitting out this election?

[Tyler Durden]

21. Likely not.

I've eaten shit for the party in the past. It's not as bad the second or third time.

[shadowknows69]

38. Bwahh ha ha ha

Mmmmmm shit.

[Tyler Durden]

60. GAWD it gets tiresome, doesn't it shadow?

I am so sick of voting for 3rd or 4th best. Gore the was pretty good but the game was rigged. Clinton was OK, but nowhere near.

Sad that if McGovern was alive, younger, and running, they would mop up the floor with him, isn't it?

[shadowknows69]

78. We shouldn't even be in a position to be nail biting about it

But I am, and I don't have many left. Up to the elbow by now I think.

[Tyler Durden]

82. The missed opportunity of this election may overshadow the foul Bush Legacy...

...when history finally writes the story.

[Art_from_Ark]

188. Actually, McGovern is still alive

And this little piece he wrote appeared in the Washington Post last month:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/04/AR2008010404308_pf.html

[Tyler Durden]

209. Sorry. was remembering Eugene McCarthy I guess.

Remember I'm one of those Baby Boomer "old guys" that's just holding Obama back.

My bad.

[Catherine Vincent]

12. What a great and wise post.

:thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

14. Holy Steaming Pile!

Most Obama supporters don't think he's got it "in the bag". Clinton can STILL win, but will have to resort to tearing down both Obama AND the Demoratic Party to do it.

1. "the valley girls" you refer to are young people waking up and getting interested in politics. You think young people should be pushed away? Pathetic

2. Obama doesn't look like a Rock Star, doesn't dress like one, speak like one, act like one. Should we dye his hair gray?

3. Bill Clinton has done serious damage to his own image. And his finances are filthy as hell. And his record as POTUS included stuff like Banking Deregulation that did serious damage to our country. At this point, the Clintons' need to worry about alienating the whole freaking Democratic Party.

4. The Clintons' are ready to tear the Democratic Party apart to win. If Obama had the string of loses and problems with money and ground games that the Clintons have. If his campaign had so many mis-steps, he'd be out and the Media have declared him out long ago.

5. Clintons have RECENT baggage. And old baggage. The Clintons, in some regards, ARE baggage.

[DGoldman1212]

26. 100% accurate.

Kudos to you!

[Tyler Durden]

28. Keep it up.

I don't have a horse in this race, even though my money is on Obama.

You'll SEE how much fun it will be to try and win the hearts and minds of Non-Obama supporters when you need them after you've pissed in their cornflakes.

This isn't about what "Hillary" has done to offend YOU, but what YOU are going to do to mend the bridges in September.

[TwilightGardener]

29. What average Democratic voter out there is aware that anyone on the

internets is pissing in anyone else's cornflakes? Or cares?

[Tyler Durden]

35. I give up on you. I am NOT talking about slurs HERE.

I am talking about slurs in the OUTSIDE world.

Get out of VIRTUAL REALITY once in a while. I spend MOST of my discussion time OFF of this board. Why else do you think it took 7 years and two election cycles to crack 10,000 posts?

Read a paper once in a while.

[beezlebum]

230. excuse me

i hate to butt in, but i think the poster was referring to people outside the 'toobs, saying that people in the real world don't give the same shit we do here.

we're the smaller percentage of the population who does the digging. the rest watch cnn and msnbc, and don't give a flying fuck enough to get their feelings hurt when someone insults their chosen candidate- who half of them probably chose via coin toss, if they cared at all to vote in primaries etc. most of them just want a dem. period. (on edit: i guess i should point out the obvious still- i do have to say that clinton does not seem to be as attractive to indies and republican crossovers. just sayin')

in my discussions in the realm in which i physically dwell, i have, as posted above, not heard near the crap i hear here, or on C&L, or on DKos, etc. perhaps you've heard differently, outside here, but i think the big picture is most people are indifferent. it's a resounding "either one."

relax dude. peace.

[AJH032]

45. don't you get the point?

without the support of Clinton voters, Obama will NOT win. Constantly tearing Clinton down will only harm your cause.

[Tyler Durden]

50. No, they don't get it. And the Obama supporters in the larger world don't get it either.

If anything, they can be even more silly and vicious. Not that the Clinton supporters are any better.

This whole election, one which could have defined politics in this century, has instead become a debacle.

[RaleighNCDUer]

220. OTOH, WITH the help of Obama supporters, Hillary still can't win.

Maybe instead of Obama supporters courting Hillary folk, Hillary folk might start examining just WHY their candidate is failing - what is wrong with her positions, her associations, her style of politics that makes so many people reject her.

It's called, self-awareness.

[beezlebum]

232. if clinton supporters really care

about the state of this country, they will vote for whichever dem makes it. john mccain = eight more years of the nightmare.

i am an obama supporter, but i will most definitely, without question support clinton if she wins, despite my reasons for not voting for her, and despite the poop that her supporters may or may not throw at and/or obama. i supported DK, and was hurt when he was forced out, and the same with edwards. to the point i wasn't going to vote. but then i considered life under mccain. hell no! i'll be damned if i'll contribute to that by not voting! if i have to vote DLC to keep him out!

it's NOT about hillary. it's NOT about her supporters and their feelings, and the same can be said about obama and his supporters- it might sting if obama/clinton (whichever fits the scenario) wins, but too much hangs in the balance to pout in the corner while all the other dems play.

[Metric System]

63. "Most Obama supporters don't think he's got it "in the bag". Clinton can STILL win, but will have to

resort to tearing down both Obama AND the Demoratic Party to do it."

Well when you frame it that way I can't see why Hillary supporters would be pissed off!

[Tyler Durden]

93. GEE. Me neither.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[RaleighNCDUer]

217. The Clintons are merely a symptom.

It's the DLC neo-libs that is the malady which has afflicted the Democratic Party for the past 25 years.

And one candidate is a charter member. And one candidate was courted by the DLC, and rejected them.

[shadowknows69]

15. The immediate problem I see

Is that for us to have party unity at this point....One of them has to go, no way around it. It doesn't have to be today or even after Texas but eventually someone is going to have to take one for the team. I agree civil discourse is the best way to go but people get passionate, and sometimes they get real stupid because of those passions and even candidates aren't above those emotions or the "competitive spirit" despite the fact that sometimes it hurts the greater good.

I really just wanted to vote for Dennis Kucinich. My head hurts. Back to reading and absorbing negative energy.

K+R BTW
S

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. I really just wanted to vote for Edwards. Now I guess I have vote for Hillary in early voting.

:-( because I refuse to vote for Obama.

[shadowknows69]

34. Hopefully not if he wins the nom.

I will swallow a long standing dislike of Mrs. Clinton (Sorry, NYer) and pull the lever for her if I must because in my opinion President McCain will probably be the end of the world.

[pauldg0]

146. I don't like either still....

...I'm just confused.

Could Edwards come back during the convention and still steal the show.

Gore likes him...what the heck. Neither would lose their asses. And Edwards has quit a bit of money left. Remember, he just suspended his campaign!!!!!

Note too that the New Hampshire for Gore group endorsed Edwards.

I'm looking foreword to the upcoming convention because to tell you the truth, I don't think Edwards would want to align himself with either one of those phoney corporate Democrats. I think it would hurt his future plans if he did that.

[devilindisguise]

176. Edwards Fan here

I was for Edwards also. Now I'm just in a quandary because I like Hillary and Obama. I will probably pick experience and vote for her. Although I've never felt a woman could win the presidency. I think Obama could have if he had waited a few years. McCain is in hot water but he will probably get the rep. nod. I really believe that Hillary has the edge in a contest with McCain. Decisions, decisions...

[paperbag_ princess]

104. I vot e that it is Obama that takes one for the team :) nt.

[cooolandrew]

17. There is a serious issue that goes beyond the 2 candidates, the environment. Without a dem candidate

we have had it. The issue isn't taken serious in America, but teh world is begging America to act outside. America is the largest polluters and only a dem candidate can reverse it. A large chunk of the antartic threatening to break off and cause major floods, it is only wise we work for our nominee. If you love your kids, please vote this November.

[shadowknows69]

36. thank you

Yeah there are some really, "now or never" things we have to take care of soon or it's endgame.

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. K&R!

:applause: His dismissal of Boomers won't help him much, either.

[RaleighNCDUer]

218. I don't know about that -

I like a little honesty about how we boomers really fucked things up.

Our time is past. We are already starting to die off in droves. It's time to pass the damn torch.

[backscatter712]

19. We Obama supporters should continue to fight like he's 30 points behind.

Just to paraphrase from that Kos diary that said as much.

Being complacent now would be a big mistake.

[shadowknows69]

37. Agree 100%

[oviedodem]

22. I don't believe its over but NO Hillary supporter would have

ever thought they would be legitimately threatened this late in the game. Furthermore, it is a little annoying hearing everyone in Hillary land talk about him being an empty suit when he has done so much. It must really be tough to deal with the fact that he is the ONLY candidate in recent times that has been able to rally young and new to the polls. This is something NO candidate in recent memory can claim.

So yes it is not over, BUT don't deny that the Clinton name does not have the weight it once had.

[JorgeTheGood]

76. he hasn't gotten them to the polls yet ...

November is when it counts ... a cross-over primary and a caucus are both laughable at best. Let's see him get his young support when it counts.

And I almost forgot ... let's see him get 2-to-1 dems to reps in the GE like they are bragging about in the primary season. LOL.

[mtnsnake]

25. Nobody's supporters will ever have to court me to vote for our nominee

When the primaries are over, I won't have any problem blotting out what goes on here in La La Land and will turn my focus on whoever the winner is.

I'll support that winner even if by some miracle that winner is Obama. ;)

[Tyler Durden]

30. Then you're one out of many who don't believe like you.

And if there isn't some NATIONAL PARTY bridge mending, then DOG help us all under President McCain.

[mtnsnake]

44. "Then you're one out of many who don't believe like you."

That makes zero sense.

[Tyler Durden]

48. I am paying you a COMPLIMENT.

I am implying that you are open minded.

Jesus Christ, you can't even tell someone they're unique in a good attitude without it being misconstrued.

[mtnsnake]

52. Sorry, dude. I wasn't trying to be snarky

All I said was that it made zero sense to me. Maybe I'm just thick but I don't understand how if I'm one out of many who doesn't believe like me, then doesn't that mean that I don't even believe like me? :shrug:

[Tyler Durden]

57. You don't need convincing to get behind the candidate of the party.

You're a forgive and forget person, who supports the candidate. I don't know if I am even that person anymore.

I don't know from your post who you support, but that's the conclusion I draw. If you're for Obama, get out in the real world and help RECONCILE the rank and file, because I think he's likely going to be the nominee. If you're for Clinton and that turns out to be true, then HELP other Clinton supporters to accept and support the nominee.

[RaleighNCDUer]

221. It's a punctuation thing.

You are one, out of many who don't believe like you.

You read it as:

You are one out of many, who don't believe like you.

The LITTLE book is my bible.

[calico1]

31. Good post.

I think it's a mistake to believe that it's only here where this situation exists. I post on a few other boards that are not even political boards and I hear some of the same kinds of comments I read here from both sides.

[Teaser]

32. "You're doing it again": No.

No, no one is "doing" shit.

There are lots of different people running around DU saying lots of different things. Some are Obama supporters, some are Hillary supporters. Some are neither. Many are assholes.

You're making the common internet error that because you saw some posts on a bulletin board saying something, all O's supporters (or even most) feel similarly.

Simply speaking, that's stupid. I'm sure you've been on the internet long enough to figure out how this place works.

The internet makes assholes of everyone.

[ExPatLeftist]

163. Dead spot on. n/t

[cali]

39. What you don't get is that the Obama campaign is courting

ALL voters- old, young, independents, all ethnic groups, etc. And you're not well informed. The acrimony on DU and other websites is not translated into the real world- at least not at this moment in time. I suggest you read the Pew Report and other polls and analysis that suggests that dems are overwhelmingly satisfied with both Clinton and Obama.

[AtomicKitten]

40. Ultimatums are kind of funny in light of the turn-out Obama invokes.

Your disdain for the candidate notwithstanding.

[Tyler Durden]

47. Then best of luck to you.

We didn't think we needed the supporters of Vance Hartke, Hubert Humphrey, Henry "Scoop" Jackson, Eugene McCarthy, or Edmund Muskie either. We thought George McGovern would carry it ALL. In 1972, THIS is what we got:



Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

And I've got plenty of disdain left over for Hillary Clinton as well.

[AtomicKitten]

51. Maybe you should pull up your socks and make up your own damn mind.

I'm getting a little weary of the purity pledges and the demand to be herded. You have a brain. Use it.

[Tyler Durden]

53. God. You're so RABID you don't even recognize the point of the OP, do you?

I believe Obama will win the Nomination.

I also believe that Obama will LOSE the GE without the general support of the party.

I support this by LIVING outside of this board, discussions with others, and Party meetings.

Keep up the nasty shit. I hope to God the Obama supporters on the street don't: at the moment, to listen to them, he could FLY if he wanted.

The Obama campaign has got some serious reconciliation to do when he gets the nomination. People like you aren't helping.

[AtomicKitten]

59. No, I have no patience with people demanding to be herded.

If you can't see the groundswell of support for Obama, the epic turnout, you have blinders on. And if it is construed as "nasty shit" to point out the vacuous nature of your concern post, so be it.

[Tyler Durden]

65. You're a herder for Obama.

"...the groundswell of support for Obama, the epic turnout..." you are "Bandwagoning." Join the Crowd?

Don't you hear yourself?

And my ONLY suggestion was civility and bridge building to promote PARTY UNITY once there is a NOMINATED CANDIDATE. If you think that's "herding," to suggest supporters of ONE candidate at least be POLITE if, as YOU say, they feel he's already winning, then I really can't discuss this with you.

[AtomicKitten]

67. If I were a herder, I would cajole your vote as you are requesting.

I'm not. I believe people should make up their own damn minds. Including you.

[Tyler Durden]

73. Then stop with the castigating. It doesn't "work."

It's one of those things that has to stop very quickly if Obama expects support from the people his supports have alienated.

Again, a word of tragic reminder: Nader.

[AtomicKitten]

77. If telling you to make up your own damn mind is "castigating" ...

you need a dictionary. Stat. You aren't special. Sorry to break it to you. We are in this together any way you slice it, and we have all kinds of problems to deal with in this country, the very least of which is cajoling Democrats into voting this election. We've been waiting seven long years for it.

Obama consistently scores much higher in hypothetical matchups against McCain. Obama is invoking record turn-out. 90% of his history-making contributions come from $100 or less individual donors.

Your "The Sky Is Falling" assessment simply isn't accurate.

[Tyler Durden]

80. ...

This is what happens when you depend on your "BASE" and neglect other support.



I lived through that nightmare, after the 1968 debacle:



(Note they used Blue for the Republicans on that map.)

Keep the vitriol DOWN. See how well that level of MAD worked, right in the middle of VIETNAM and the DRAFT?

[AtomicKitten]

91. Here's a genuine point of concern, for me.

And these stats haven't changed. Contrary to the lame allegation of Cult of Personality made by some, Obama supporters want to win. No vitriol; it is what it is, and why I'm convinced Obama is the Democrats' best shot at the title, a shot at winning big. Those that disagree can vote accordingly, as it should be.

Fifty percent of adults would not vote for Clinton

By Kelly McCormack
http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/fifty-percent-of-americans-would-not-vote-for-clinton-2007-03-27.html

Half of voting-age Americans say they would not vote for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) if she became the Democratic nominee for president in 2008, according to a Harris Interactive poll released Tuesday.

More than one in five Democrats that participated in the survey said they would not vote for Clinton. Overall, 36 percent say they would vote for the former first lady and 11 percent are unsure of their top choice.

Forty-eight percent of Independent voters also said that they would choose another candidate over Clinton, the poll, which surveyed 2,223 potential voters, states.

Fifty-six percent of men said that they would not vote for Clinton, while 45 percent of women said that she would not be their pick. In addition, 69 percent of those 62 and older said that they would not vote for Clinton.

Nearly half of the respondents said that they dislike Clinton’s political opinions and Clinton as a person. Fifty-two percent of people also said that “she does not appear to connect with people on a personal level.”

[Tyler Durden]

97. Poll taken in March of 2007.

A LOT of things have changed since then.

But this has little or nothing to do with the nomination now. I believe Obama will get the nomination.

But I believe JUST AS STRONGLY, that if the Obama Campaign and the Obama Supporters do not CEASE what is beginning to look like kicking Clinton when she is down, that he will not win back enough Clinton supporters to WIN the General Election.

What do you want to do? Piss on Hillary Clinton, or win in November? With my experience since 1968, I don't believe you can have both.

CHOSE ONE.

[AtomicKitten]

121. Since Obama beating Clinton is construed as "pissing on her" by some here, so be it.

The problem here is in that exaggerated perception of the status quo when it really is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.

[pnwmom]

168. No, it's pissing on her to make fun of her for being OLDER and a WOMAN.

It's pissing on her to stand there and condescendingly talk about he UNDERSTANDS that "periodically" when she's "feeling down" she "launches attacks."


:puke:

[AtomicKitten]

229. Both you and your candidate need to look into what it means to lose gracefully.

The incessant drive by the Clinton campaign and supporters to inject race and gender into the debate is most certainly vomit-inducing.

[Tyler Durden]

242. Both you and your candidate define "Sore Winners."

I'm ashamed of BOTH campaigns. I don't even publicly call myself a Democrat anymore: it's embarrassing.

[AtomicKitten]

243. No, you are a sore loser. Plain and simple.

[Tyler Durden]

247. Are you purposely NOT reading?

I am not a Clinton Supporter. And your insistence that I am is rude. If that is your intention, you have succeeded.

This is exactly the sort of nonsense I was talking about. If I WAS a Clinton Supporter, your rudeness would push me away with both hands from any support of Obama.

This is how the Democratic Party loses elections.

[AtomicKitten]

249. That's a moot point when your behavior mirrors theirs.

You are being rude; get that point straight.

In a nutshell, you resent Obama for doing well. Can't have that, can we?

[Tyler Durden]

252. I don't care whether he wins or loses. Or Clinton.

Which one of them stands up for Equal Protection Under The Law ABSOLUTELY, as in the GLBT community deserves EVERY civil right of any other citizen?

Which one of them is for Universal Single Payer Health Care?

Which one of them has committed to ending the war in Iraq DAY ONE?

Which one of them has committed to immediate normalization with Cuba?

Which one of them opposes the Death Penalty unequivocally?

Which one of them unconditionally supports Public Education?

Which one of them will not let their "FAITH" get in the way of their office?



I could keep listing forever. I have NEVER had a horse in this race. I don't want EITHER of them to be president, and I'm not sure that McCain would be worse because he might just be completely ineffectual, which would be fine with me.

I am a Democratic Socialist, and I am TIRED of being called a Hillary Clinton Supporter. I AM NOT.

[AtomicKitten]

253. then you are an admitted shit-stirrer (nt)

[RaleighNCDUer]

224. Are Clinton supporters Democrats or cult members?

Do you REALLY think the vast majority of them would refuse to vote, or vote Republican, just because some people spoke harshly during the primary?

68 and 72 are completely irrelevant here. In 68, the leading contender was assassinated, and the party settled for an old style FDR liberal who SUPPORTED THE WAR at a time when the public was fed up with the war - 30,000 killed in 5 years. Nixon came along talking as the "voice of experience" who was NOT connected with what was seen as a Democratic war, suggesting he had a 'secret plan' to end it. THAT is what happened in 68.

In 72, the Paris Peace talks were happening, our guys were already coming home (after 4 more disastrous years), and CREEP was fixing the election with tactics that would make Bush blush - Nixon pulled out his 'southern strategy' to divide the Dems, while insisting that a change at that point would derail the peace talks, while Donald Segretti (Karl Rove's ideological grandfather) put 'dirty tricks' in our political lexicon, helping create the rift between McGovern's motivated students and rank and file dems - much as it would seem some are doing here, today - and using the FBI to make sure they knew everything the Dems were doing.

Pointing out that Hillary is wrong on policy, and WHERE she is wrong on policy is NOT something that Dems need to stop doing - otherwise, it's all only about personality. This is an election, not a beauty contest. And if Hillary supporters cannot be brought to see WHY people don't support her - that it is NOT because she's a woman, or because of her name, or her laugh - they will remain resentful of her loss.

The DLC has been trying to destroy every populist uprising for the past 25 years - because of their misreading of 68 and 72. I have to wonder why someone would now predict a populist-backed candidate losing after the DLC candidate is rejected.

[Tyler Durden]

248. Then I assume the dozens of posters HERE and the myriad letters from Obama supporters...

...(AND Clinton Supporters) stating that they will NEVER vote for the other candidate are just lying?

The LANDSLIDE of 1972 where ONE STATE went for McGovern with Nixon pulling off his Moderate/Mid-Right act can still only be explained by a complete SCHISM of the Democratic Party.

Do you remember? They used to say that McGovern was "Acid, Anarchy, and Abortion." We lost that one because we thought the youth of America could win it on our own.

Instead, we lost EXTREMELY.

[The_Counsel]

106. Hold Up...

...so you're saying that Team Nixon's dirty tricks had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the '72 landslide? Or the Southern Strategy finally taking root? Or McGovern's disastrous campaign strategy? Oversimplify much?

1968. Humphrey wasn't even supposed to be the damn nominee! The party bigs decided he was going to be the nominee since they couldn't have Lyndon Johnson, who was smart enough to realize his name was shit among the rank and file. You know who SHOULD have been the nominee? Eugene McCarthy. Had it not been for Sirhan Sirhan it should have been Bobby Kennedy. They won more primaries than Humphrey did. Why didn't the party bigs just conform and rally behind McCarthy?

Folks, we're giving the Republicans too much credit. We EXPECT them to throw shit at whoever the nominee is. That's all they have, and all they ever do. The question is whether our nominee is willing to fight back against it. Gore could not. Kerry did not for some inexplicable reason. I believe Hillary will fight back, but I also believe she gives the GOP more ammunition. Which is more, here negatives are higher than anyone still with a serious shot at winning his/her party's nomination.

Based on what Obama's gotten from the Clinton camp so far, I believe he can defend himself just fine. And people like him more. Hillary fans try to downplay it, but he DOES have support from independents and some Republicans. People who've never voted in their lives are registering just to vote in the PRIMARY! I seriously doubt that they're doing it just so they can turn around and vote for JOHN McCAIN in November.

Which leads me to the original post. If Obama has this kind of support now. What makes you think that his camp is operating under a "we don't need them" mentality? If they're doing that, they don't win Wisconsin. Or Virginia. Or frickin' UTAH!

Dude ... you're just trying to hard. The end is near for Hillary and you can't stand it. It's okay, though. I'd feel the same way if it were my candidate headed down the crapper. Hell, I've been a registered voter for twenty years and NEVER been able to vote the general election for a candidate I supported in the primaries. I'm sick of it. But I don't blame everyone else for that condition. It is what it is. Deal with it.

[Tyler Durden]

114. I have made this clear: I am not a Clinton OR an Obama supporter.

I have been a registered voter, member of the party, and ground worker since I turned 18 in 1970, and was a ground worker in 1968.

I have NEVER seen this kind of division. NEITHER candidate is "...going down the crapper..." as you so eloquently put it. This is going to convention, where it will likely end up on the Obama side.

But I lived through those elections, and the problem was the same as it is now: SCHISM. We had better fix that, or get used to President McCain.

NO DEMOCRAT has polled more than 50.01% of the electorate since Carter in 1976.

NOTHING explains the 1972 debacle except the split off of the moderates and conservatives in the Democratic Party (YES, we had conservatives back then, just like the Republicans had liberals).

PLEASE don't call me "Dude." I'm 55 years old and it sets my teeth on edge. And making suppositions about people like me is not the way to win friends and influence people. If you are 38, I have about as much in common with you as I do with someone in Brazil, so it doesn't help to try and placate me.

I repeat: build the bridge between those two warring camps, or lose.

[The_Counsel]

133. Fine. I'll Take You At Your Word.

If you say you support neither Clinton nor Obama, then I'll assume you don't. You have to admit that someone on the outside looking in would think you are a Clinton supporter experiencing sour grapes, though...

Clinton IS going down, though. Twelve straight primary losses and an apparent erosion in base and finances seem to support that. If it takes until the convention for that process to be complete, then so be it.

And yes, there is "schism" in the party right now. It also prevails on the GOP side. Senator McCain has been the presumptive nominee for, what, two weeks now? And yet Governor Huckabee was still winning primaries up until last week. Why? because there are entire factions within the parties that refuse to embrace McCain. Indicators show that many of those who won't embrace him will either stay home on November 4 or vote for Obama. If Clinton is the nominee, they'll likely just stay home. On the Dem side it seems most of those who supported the loser in the primary would still vote Dem on 11/4 or stay home. Very few will vote McCain. And most of those saying they will are just crying for attention. It'll pass.

"NO DEMOCRAT has polled more than 50.01% of the electorate since Carter in 1976."

This is true. It also doesn't tell the whole story. Bill Clinton won two elections despite never getting 50% of the popular vote. But he also faced TWO strong candidates in both cases. 40% of the vote in a three-way race is NOTHING to sneeze at. Neither is getting 50%+ of the Electoral College vote, which is what you REALLY want. Clinton got 69% in '92 and 70% in '96.

But back to Obama. I'm still waiting for an explanation into how he can win the Virginia and Wisconsin primaries so handily, and be virtually tied in Texas, if he's ignoring--no, ALIENATING-- entire factions of the party...

[John Q. Citizen]

135. You were not a registered voter in 1970

Amendment XXVI (the Twenty-Sixth Amendment) of the United States Constitution, ratified on July 1, 1971, standardized the voting age to 18. It was passed in response to the Vietnam War and to partially overrule the Supreme Court's decision in Oregon v. Mitchell.

I lived through those election also, and your analysis isn't coherent.

Politics is war. Obama supporters have just had the opposition (Hillary supporters) suggest that;

1. Obama is a plagiarizer

2. That Obama is dishonest if he doesn't take public funding against McCain for fuck sake.

3. That Obama's wife is some how less than patriotic

You want love peace and understanding? Great I do too. Perhaps you can deliver your next appeal to the Clinton partisans to "Quit talking like Republicans just because your candidate is losing."

I doubt it will have any effect though, because when people's candidate is losing they tend to go over the cliff.

The time for healing will be as soon as we have a nominee, not before. I think it will be a lot sooner than the convention, because I don't believe the party regulars are going to put up with the losing candidate hangingn on against all odds to the bitter end.

[jackson_dem]

123. "Obama consistently scores much higher in hypothetical matchups"

Yeah, the "new" candidates always do well at this time of year.

2004: The "new" Kerry "consistently scores much higher" than Dean. He led by 8 at this point in 2004. The result:



Kerry loses by 3.

2000: The "new" (uniter who railed against the "polarizing" Clinton-Gore era) Bush leads Gore (the veep during the bad ole times of peace and prosperity during the 90's) leads Gore by 11 at this time in 2000.

ttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/ElectoralCollege2000-Large.png/800px-ElectoralCollege2000-Large.png

Gore wins by half a million.

1988: The "new" Dukakis leads by 17 against Bush. The result



Dukakis loses by 7.

St. Obama is immune to the effects of attacks from the other party for several months?

[AtomicKitten]

125. And half the country are adamant that they will never vote for Clinton.

So, good luck with all that.

[Rockholm]

197. You're being herded.

And it is your kind of attitude that will not make me "support" Obama. Sure, if he is the nominee he will get my vote. But forget my donation and forget the bumper sticker on the car.
You may be proud of him, but at this point I am not, and I am not warming up to him.

[AtomicKitten]

231. I chose my candidate having been otherwise been

a natural supporter of your candidate as I had been for two decades. I am pleased, however, that the kind of nasty politics exhibited by the Clinton campaign is being rejected by America. I don't think it's possible for me to care less how you vote. In fact, I turn my back on all those that continue to support the kind of politics and campaigning the Clintons showed during this election. No purity pledge will be forthcoming from me, and your unsolicited bargaining over your vote and support falls on deaf ears.

[Tyler Durden]

42. To All of you: ASSUME I'm talking about the "Real World"

Contrary to popular belief, I have a "life," and it doesn't revolve around this little corner of the internet.

My political discussions in the real world are LEGION. I don't talk here 1/20 as much as I do in the real world. Why else would it take 2 election cycles and 7 years to just barely crack 10,000 posts?

It is arrogance and ego of the highest rank to assume prostelytizing HERE will change anything anywhere. If you aren't working OUTSIDE, you aren't working.

So the next time any of you are tempted to define someone's OPINION in terms of DU, wait a moment, read your post aloud, and think how crazy that sounds.

[fuzzy otter pop]

173. the primaries and the DU have nothing to do with the real world and you know this

or you know nothing about politics in general

either way your argument is totally bogus

[NorthernSpy]

43. you've got a fuckload of nerve...

What am I saying? That I don't hear this coming out of Obama or his Campaign. If you want ex-Clinton supporters on board, then Party Loyalty makes points; I don't care HOW you feel about this that or the other thing you think Clinton or her campaign has done to assassinate Obama. Time to mend ties that bind. You're already late in starting.

There's more, but I'm repeating things you already know if you'd only be honest with yourselves.

Obama already has BAGGAGE DELUXE. Hell, you alienate every Veteran over the age of 40 just with that picture of him standing in front of the flag without hand over heart. Who cares that it's bullshit? Politicians have to kiss babies and wrap themselves in the flag. And this isn't the only thing he's got going that's weight: remember, he's alienated most of a couple of voting blocks (McClurkin) AND THE ANSWER ISN'T "WELL, HILLARY'S JUST AS BAD." Then you piss off TWO groups instead of trying to mend a bridge.

My point is that I've seen these mistakes before, and I've seen the result. There's still time to fix things, make peace with the Clinton Camp, and bring about some party unity. He ignores this not only at HIS peril, but OURS.

What presumptuous tripe! As far as DU is concerned, you went lower than just about anybody to sink Obama (remember "dogshit"?), and now that all that sort of thing has failed, you're going to tell us what WE have to do patch things up with YOU?


To hell with that.


I've got no problem at all with extending a hand to 99.9% of Clinton supporters. But I think we'll get there without your advice. As for the vicious remainder, fuck 'em. We could waste forever trying to humor that tiny percentage of malcontents who will never forgive us for denying them what they wanted, anyway.

[Neshanic]

46. Tyler, join the club. I get the same when I point things like this out. Good post.

They are going to alienate everyone but the most pure.

[Tyler Durden]

49. This is supposed to be a VANGUARD of political thought.

Instead, contrary to what most of them believe, they really are a microcosm of the larger sandbox.

Maybe a little smarter in some cases.

[I Vote In Pittsburgh]

54. I've tried courting them

Many, many times. They respond by reaching into their purses for the pepper spray.

[Tyler Durden]

58. Then don't give up, and don't give into the temptation to spray back.

The moral High Ground is always a better place to stand in a flood of sewage.

[Bonobo]

55. Dude, DU is NOT the world. Take a reality pill.

[wpelb]

61. DLC

Many here do not like the DLC, the organization within the Democratic Party that Bill Clinton started or at least led, and which supported him on issues like "welfare reform," because that organization often was willing to compromise with Republicans. Will party liberals (including many of you and your friends) hold their noses and vote for a nominee, whether Sen. Clinton or Sen. Obama, if that individual is supported by the DLC? If not (or if the candidate is not supported by DLC, though I think that's unlikely), are they (including you) willing to allow a Republican to get elected by default this year and hope for something better in '12?

[Tyler Durden]

71. I'm a SOCIALIST, but I support the Party.

That support, although it goes back to 1968, is not infinite. Don't temp me; I would just as soon see some sort of political collapse that resulted in a new, better, possibly Parliamentary Democratic/Socialist form of government as see this charade go on, decade after decade.

There are many like me. Don't count on our support. Our patience is not endless.

[f the letter]

182. Aaaaaamen. i hate being counted on to "fall in line" forever

just because the republican party is farther right. i am a thinking person first and a Democrat second, and this is not a bad thing.

[Tyler Durden]

211. Good.

Then you AREN'T one of those people telling me to get on the bandwagon for THEIR candidate when I don't see that candidate supporting my interests...Right?

My whole point is that if a potential candidate goes on to win the nomination, then before the convention they had better not burn the bridges and dynamite the foundations leading to the other candidate's supporters.

[mohc]

62. It's not past time

Clinton is still in the race and as such her "core" supporters are going to remain extremely loyal to her until she drops out. The non-core support will not require too much fence mending to court, so there will be plenty of time. After Clinton has dropped out, her core supporters will have to be given time to come to terms with the loss, and only then should the serious courting begin. Obama certainly will need their support, but courting them while Clinton is still in the race will be both more difficult and more likely to alienate them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Oh the stones on you.

This is the part of coping with grief known as "bargaining." Pretty soon you'll get to acceptance.

Are you kidding me? You Clinton supporters have been burning every single bridge you come across. You accuse our candidate and us of shit involving misogyny, slumlords, crack cocaine, blowjobs, hating boomers, hating veterans, being in cults, being unpatriotic, and now get this shit... Hillary supporters, and Hillary herself... holy shit let me compose myself... now you have the gall to sling mud at the wife of your opponent?

And now you except us to come crawling to you?

Not only no, but fuck no.

You're going to vote for Obama. Don't try to tell me you're not, I won't believe you. You won't stay home, you won't vote for McCain. You're going to join the cult. You're going to vote for Obama. You're going to be proud to do it. And I don't have to do a thing about it.

You're all going to do it. All of you. Your constituents are a milkshake, and Obama's going to just drink you all up. He's going to drink you up!

Obama IS the third revelation!

[Tyler Durden]

66. Sometimes, you really shouldn't just stir the pot for laughs.

Anarchy is not a stable political condition.

Don't bet on me voting for Obama. I likely will if he's the candidate, but there are many times I'd like to "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out."

Remember: I'm a SOCIALIST. NOBODY on the tickets has represented me, since maybe Shirley Jackson.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Yeah, right.

Like I said, I'm not buying it.

[Tyler Durden]

72. Just another reason why you're on the revolving door I call my "IGNORE" list.

Once in a while, you say something worth paying attention to. But when you get on one of these kicks, I get closer to ignoring you again.

Pity. You're not stupid. Maybe even more disgruntled with this whole mess than I am. But the pot stirring gets so boring.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Awwwww....

:nopity:

[Tyler Durden]

79. Silly. Beneath you.

At least when you don't have this particular insect up the fundament for disrupting.

[NorthernSpy]

69. "Your constituents are a milkshake, and Obama's going to just drink you all up."

:spray:


Thanks for that!

[Sadie5]

172. You can count me out

It's people like you that make me want to puke. The third revelation indeed.

[Danger Mouse]

258. i have one very important question.

what flavor milkshake?

[JorgeTheGood]

68. grest post TD

and this veteran is totally pissed off (yeah I'm over 40 -- way over) ...

The thing(s) BO needs to do for my vote and do loud and clear (5 by 5) ...

He needs to back off the invade Pakistan bull. We all know that is one of 2 things and maybe both ... bullshit and crazy.

He needs to promise to put Social Security in a lock box and never let wall street get anywhere near it.

He needs to promise to fund the Veterans Administration.

He needs to promise not to play nice with the republicans.

There's more but you get my drift ...

Failure to comply with my wish list and I'm a McCain (or whoever is on the rep ticket) supporter and FWIW, I've been a dem for 47 years.

Anyway, Bravo Zulu on your post.

[rodeodance]

74. well worth a r and k.

[cottonseed]

81. I've seen people try and reach out.

Then every morning a whole new load of anti-Obama threads pop up trashing the guy. Then the cycle starts anew. You've got a point in making amends to some degree, but it's not yet over, and some of these Hill dogs need to heel as well. It doesn't take much at all to turn conciliation to retaliation, a simple review of morning threads in GDP will show that.

[Tyler Durden]

83. I'm sorry, but I've seen this mostly at about 60/40 Obama.

The Clinton supporters have never been quite as "enthusiastic" as the Obama supporters. And the vitriol tends to be a little harsher.

Both are at fault, but Obama has much more to lose here if, as will likely happen, he takes the nod. He can't win it alone, and I know long-term Democrats who have decided to write in Gore.

[Tyler Durden]

84. One other thing:

"You can't win, Hillary is DLC, Obama is the one..." isn't reaching out.

"If he wins, we want your support, we want to work WITH you..." THAT is reaching out.

[cottonseed]

87. Good point.

I just think it's tricky regardless. In some ways, as an Obama supporter, I'd almost feel condescending at this point even touching on the subject. Regardless, point taken.

[Tyler Durden]

92. Tick Tick Tick. Don't wait too long.

September just might not be soon enough to say "I'm sorry we seemed to disrespect you (insert group here)."

I repeat. Don't wait too long.

[KaptBunnyPants]

85. Hillary supporters are in no mood for courting.

One look at the front page shows you that they will still be mad about this until long after this election. When Hillary supporters are willing to justify seizing the nomination by a back room deal after losing the primary, you know they aren't going to listen to reason.

[Tyler Durden]

86. And the same has not come from the Obama camp?

Packed Caucauses, Photos of College Students marching to the polls? Obama has disenfranchized Florida and Michigan by default. Even if they took ALL of the votes not committed and put them to Obama, he'd STILL have lost.

I'm sorry, but you're doing it again. As you are likely to win, time to take the high road.

[KaptBunnyPants]

96. Florida and Michigan disenfranchized themselves.

People are responsible for what their elected representatives do. They were told in advance what would happen if they didn't comport to the primary schedule, and they chose to nullify their own elections. Changing the rules after the fact because your candidate is behind is unfair to the other team. And the same goes for caucuses. I never heard that caucuses were unfair until Hillary started losing them. Now somehow Obama's playing dirty pool because his supporters were willing to come out for him, while Hillary's were not. And don't tell me what I'm doing when you don't even know who I support. I was an Edwards supporter and now I don't have a candidate. I like Obama's foreign policy, but I like Clinton's healthcare plan. I don't like many of Bill Clinton's policies, which make me leary of Hillary. But Obama barely has a background, which makes me leary of him. But the fact that Hillary's surrogates have been making arguments like those you just made, attempts to change the rules after the fact because you lost, strikes me as extraordinarily dangerous. If we can't agree to let the elections settle things, then there's not much of a basis for a Democratic Party to even exist.

[Tyler Durden]

98. You're missing the point. Obama likely will be the candidate.

Build the bridges to the Clinton Supporters or lose the Election. It's that simple. Start now.

[Guava Jelly]

88. I'm game.

I plan on Voting for Sen Clinton if she gets the nod.
My choice of Obama came after careful consideration.
I don't hate her or those supporting her.
People become quite passionate over their candidates and sometimes get a little crazy.
In the end it will all Iron out and people will come around.

[demo dutch]

90. Not sure about that. I know a ton of people who are cringing at Obama

[Guava Jelly]

95. They will come around as well

This is just an ugly process.

[Tyler Durden]

100. Visit the GLBT forum.

A lot of angry people who feel betrayed. I'm in SOLIDARITY with them.

[Guava Jelly]

117. I hope that their feelings of betrayal are in vain.

I figure any slab of meat who would get the nod are going to dance around GLBT issues.Either X or Y chromosome
It is a very sad fact and I feel for those who are discriminated against.
I would hope that people give either candidate a chance to prove them right or hopefully prove them wrong.
We are all in this together.

[Tyler Durden]

210. Don't count on it.

The people I talk to, here and Real World, are so ANGRY with Obama AND Clinton that they are ready to write in Gore.

This is not an optimal solution, that is if you don't believe in anarchy.

[Tyler Durden]

99. GPU, I hope you're right.

As part of the "Curmudgeon Class," I have to say that a lot of my fellows aren't that agreeable. There's been a lot of vitriol toward us, Gays, Leftists, and others. Time to build bridges or lose it in November.

Just my opinion, but I lived though 1968 and 1972. It could easily happen again.

[LadyVT]

94. great post

[Independent-Voter]

101. OTOH, you are welcome to put your money where your mouth is

There are those that run their mouth on anon bulletin boards, and there are those that put their money where their mouth is. Which one are you, because I've netted around $8k thus far from HRC's trainwreck of a campaign.

Intrade.com

HRC
1/22 - about $67
2/22 - $18.80

Obama
1/22 - about $33
2/22 - $81.30


InTrade is a market of individuals who don't bullshit around with their money. So again, put up or shut up.

[Tyler Durden]

105. Great. You make book on our future.

alerted.

[Independent-Voter]

112. Just supplying you with an option to back up your tripe. HRC's not doing so good in the fundraising

dept these days, so I thought you'd want to help her out some.

[dicknbush]

128. Actually Hillary has been raising about one million a day

[Independent-Voter]

129. But she's still 7 large in the hole. Hell of alot of parking tickets there.

[dicknbush]

132. I don't think so..where is your info that she is 7 in the hole..

And whats with the gambling lingo "7 Large" ??????what an idiot.

[Independent-Voter]

202. Here you go Junior.

"Hillary Rodham Clinton ended January with $7.6 million in debt — not including the $5 million personal loan she gave to her campaign in the run-up to the critical Super Tuesday elections, according to financial reports released Wednesday.

In contrast, Democratic rival Barack Obama’s campaign’s finances continued to be robust.

He reported raising nearly $37 million and spending nearly $31 million. His cash balance was $25 million, of which roughly $20 million can be spent on the primary. He reported a comparatively small $1 million in debts, owed largely to just three vendors."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8613.html

[JorgeTheGood]

103. Lots of life-long dems are ...

sick of the arrogance coming from BO's camp -- one can only take so much of that crap and BO (and MO) apparently isn't smart enough to notice it and back off a notch. They truly feel they have it in the bag without the dem base - they don't need the glbt's, they don't need anyone over 35 years old nor the hispanics -- the blacks and youth will be enough to carry him all the way ... Big mistake.

Then there's the punking by the republicans who are chosing the dem candidate using caucus states (where anyone can vote with no ID) and 5% or less of the voters participate. FL by herself, had more dem voters than all the dems in all the caucus states combined.

The sad part is the lack of enthusiasm in the dem base which equates to low dem turnout which means the senate goes back to the republicans. Count on it.

Either the fractured dems become unfractured pronto or this is going to be a blowout against BO in Nov and it won't matter who ends up the rep candidate.

[The_Counsel]

111. I'll Say Again...

...if Obama really is ignoring the base--or certain factions of it like women, latinos, baby boomers--he doesn't win Wisconsin. Or Virginia. Or Utah. And he doesn't pull neck-and neck in Texas.

We've got to stop repeating the lie that Obama is "ignoring the base" in the hopes that it'll come true; cause when you look at the numbers you'll see the exact opposite is true.

[JorgeTheGood]

115. those numbers look true only because

nearly 30%^ of BO's votes in those open primary and caucus states came from non dems (indys and republicans) that voted for BO only to stop Hillary and won't be there for BO during the GE.

[The_Counsel]

134. Ah ... the "Open Primaries And Caucuses Are Evil" Argument Again...

Well, lets consider that premise for a moment...

...if all those voters are only voting to stop Hillary, why on earth would they suddenly vote FOR Hillary on 11/4? If they were really that bent on stopping Hillary, why didn't they just vote in the GOP primary for McCain with the confidence they could "stop her" on 11/4? When considering that question, also consider the independents were supposed to be McCain's base.

Oh, and what does that say about all those NEW voters who are registering just to vote for Obama? why didn't these people vote for Edwards or Richardson or Kucinich? Are you saying that literally millions of voters got together and decided "we're going to vote for Obama to stop Hillary, then vote for McCain in November?" I think we're giving the conspiracy theory a little too much credit here...

EDITING BECAUSE I FORGOT TO MENTION...
======================================

Obama is now gernering support from factions on which Clinton once had a handle. He's winning support among White women. He's winning support among Whites in general. He's making inroads among latinos. He's getting support from those who list the economy as their #1 priority. He's getting support from those who think electability is important. Clinton had been killing Obama with those groups for months. Now they're voting Obama.

So, I'll ask still AGAIN: How is it that Obama is winning all these primaries that seemed unwinnable as late as last month, and winning them BIG, if he's running a "who the hell needs you" campaign? I really want to know, 'cause I might decide to run for office one day and that kind of info would really help my campaing strategist...

[susankh4]

136. No. It is true.

He is ignoring me.

And don't think I'm not taking note... of all the snide comments about Hillary's "feelings that cause her to lash out" and "old folks" doing "old things" in Washington.

I was rooting for a Hillary/Barack ticket. Since 2004, actually.

Then I said... maybe a Barack/Hillary ticket would be good. More teflon between Hillary and the RWM.

Now I am here to say..... if Barack runs without Hillary, he will not have my vote. I will do one of these:

1) vote "present" by leaving the prez. slot on the ticket blank and voting only for local offices and issues.
2) ask for a write in ballot and pen in "Hillary Rodham Clinton."
3) consider the other party, if Mr. McCain chooses a VP that I feel OK about.

Thanks to the OP for this thoughtful thread.

[The_Counsel]

140. Right. And Hillary Never Said Obama Was Unprepared For the Job...

I don't think it's so much he's ignoring you. You just have so much invested in Hillary winning that you just can't see yourself supporting Obama at some point. Believe me, I felt the same way about Al Gore in 2000 when I supported Bill Bradley in the primaries. I thought I'd never even vote in the general election that year. I even gave serious thought to actually campaigning and voting for JOHN McCAIN!

I ended up voting for Al Gore that November.

I ended up being pissed to the point of tears when he "didn't win."

I was almost as pissed when he didn't even bother getting into the race the past two elections.

George Bush called Ronald Reagan's economic policy "voodoo economics" ... right before he accepted a VP slot on the GOP ticket and campaigned for same economic policy. It's the primaries. It happens.

[susankh4]

143. Welll...... he is.....

unprepared for the job. And that is not a racist slur or anything. He just plain lacks a track record.

I saw myself supporting Obama. In fact, I saw myself doing that back when my Dem friends were saying "your crazy, he's too young, not gonna happen...."

But.... the newfound cocky attitude is gonna have to go.

Honestly... he's not at all like the man I saw at the convention in 2004.

[The_Counsel]

147. Well, We're Even, Then.

I've seen Hillary do some things in this campaign I never thought I'd see her do. The whole crying episode jumps to mind here. Up until then, it was a toss-up as to who I'd support for the nomination. But after that, I was just pissed-off enough to support Obama. Sorry. And most of Hillary's actions the last two weeks have smacked of the kind of desperation that makes want to NEVER support her again. Ever. And I've already voted for her twice.

And without getting into a long spiel outlining Obama's accomplishments/qualifications that you'll likely not read anyway, I'll say this: The way you run your campaign says a lot about how you'll handle yourself in the office. Obama has already reached across party lines to get stuff done. Obama has somehow NOT gotten into financial difficulty in his campaign. Obama doesn't feel the need to tear down the next person to make himself look good. Or blame the next person when he blows it. Or refuse to admit he's blown it in the first place.

If you want to know what he's done in the Senate, there's always the Congressional Record. Oodles of bills he's either written, signed or co-signed. I'm sure the things he's done in the Illinois Senate is on the record as well. Not the mention the things he's done as a lawyer. Did you even KNOW he has a law degree he's actually put to good use?

What irks me is how people act like Obama spent all these years with his thumb up his butt, woke up sometime in July 2004 to make a speech, and suddenly everyone loves him. It's just not the case.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

107. He doesn't have it in the bag.

People who assert this are getting way ahead of themselves. We will know March 4th whether the race will continue. And, yes, both candidates need the support of all Democrats in order to be elected President.

[theboss]

108. The .0001 percent of the electorate represented by DU will probably never be reconciled

Oh well....

[Tyler Durden]

110. This has nothing to do with DU.

I peeled my face from the screen years ago, and base my opinions on reading, discussing with party and opposition, and talking to strangers.

The real world, if anything, is worse than here: where I work, I have yet to find a single Democrat out of over 250 workers.

[theboss]

122. I work in an office of 30 in Northern VA

Everybody but one is a Dem. Everybody but one of those voted for Obama.

So...good times. Obama is apparently going to win with 99 perent of the vote.

The point is: anybody basing the mood of the country based on either this insane website OR their limited social circle is bound to have some skewed opinions.

[superkia]

113. With electronic voting, superdelegates and corruption...

no one has it in the bag. Usually the cheaters win unless they are caught because of their unfair advantage but when our system is corrupt and doesn't punish or even acknowledge the corruption, the cheaters control the outcome. Who knows what is to come, I am anxiously waiting.

[NMMNG]

119. Great post Tyler

And nice try, but I doubt it will achieve it's intended effect. Most of the Obama supporters you are trying to reach both believe DU is a meaningless microcosm of bizarre, meaningless nutjobs who don't reflect "the real world" and a group of dedicated progressives that can effect meaningful change in the world. It all just depends on which way the wind is blowing at the time, or which they think will help O-man the most.

Too many of them have made it abundantly clear they don't want us (GLBTs, older voters, women, the "uneducated", and anybody else who won't fall in line). Works for me, because I'm well past the point of caring.


:hug: to you , my friend.

[tabasco]

120. Yawn.

If Obama wins, it will be time for the H. Clinton supporters to stop the sliming and support the candidate.

If H. Clinton supporters expect someone to kiss their ass to get them to vote, or to prevent them from voting McCain, to use the vernacular, that's pretty fucked up.

Obama has the makings of a great President. If you are willfully ignorant to that because of your loyalty to another candidate, that's your problem. If you sit home and decide not to vote because Obama is not your perfect candidate, you're one stupid MOFO.

[dicknbush]

130. Oh the "Makings of a President" great just what we need.....

Someone who has to get into the presidency and needs to get the ingredients after wards. Great. I ain't voting for Obama....PERIOD! And I will do everything I can to get others to realize what a mistake they have made if they do vote for him!

[susankh4]

151. Markings?

Is that like the stigmata or something?

[mitchtv]

244. I agree with Mrs O

"I'd have to think about it" if he gets the nod. We have no where to go? I am older/gay/hs diploma/ IOW not a prefered Obama supporter.We'll see. Edwards might be the key to my vote

[robbedvoter]

127. Bookmarked

[dicknbush]

131. Obamanables annoy me......

If I want preachin I go to church. If I want Hope I sit at home and wait for it and guess what it never changes anything except......time goes by and you think hope is coming and it will get better soon....and then time goes by and you think...hope is comeing and it will get better soon.

HOPE HOPE...... WE DON"T NEED HOPE WE NEED...... HELP!

[jillan]

138. lol - "we don't need hope we need....help!"

[katty]

157. we sure do! stat!!

[jillan]

137. Trashing Hillary, and trashing me because I support her is not making me warm up to Obama.

Excellent post!!!!

[From The Left]

141. Can't I Have Some of What You're Smoking???

It must be from Jamaica.

[Deep13]

142. The whole idea of super delegates was in response to McGovern.

The party wanted to insure some institutional memory so we don't keep shooting ourselves in the foot.

[cd3dem]

144. It is our only hope to bring sense back to the democrat party!

There are too many open wounds already from this terrible primary season. I don't like Obama at all. I have never disliked a candidate more. He is unqualified to be president and I predict if elected will bring the country and party down.

We now have republicans voting for him in open primaries and deciding our nominee, while Florida and Michigan do not count!

[IdClaire]

145. we need a unified party

all this "us" and "them" crap on both sides has to stop.

[NastyRiffraff]

149. Great post...too bad most of the Obama supporters don't get it.

It's NOT about DU. I too have heard and read on the tubes many, many people who say they will not support Obama because of the actions of his supporters. Is that "wrong"? Sure, we "shouldn't" base our decisions on any candidate's supporters, but that's not how human beings are wired. When your chosen candidate is routinely slammed as evil, a "harpy," a "betrayer of the Democratic Party," "dangerous" etc. the resulting anger WILL affect your ability to warm up to, or even vote, for the accuser's candidate.

Don't tell me that "both sides" do it. I KNOW both sides do it, and I don't like it from either side. But Obama has more at stake here, if it's true, as approximately 2,852 people have posted, that Hillary had better drop out, NOW, for the "good of the Party."

It's unbelievably arrogant, not to mention...er...d*mb... to say that Obama will win easily because of the "groundswell" of support, and "everybody" will eagerly flock to him if he wins the nomination.It's a long time until November, and a lot can happen. Don't even think that the media won't go after him like sharks attacking a flounder. Don't expect a lot of Hillary's supporters to rush to his defense when (not if) they do. You think he's so clean it won't matter, or you think it can't affect the election? Talk to John Kerry.

[emilyg]

159. Bravo.

[Blue_In_AK]

150. Hillary and Barack were my last choices...

and I agree with you.

[smalll]

152. Oh he's got it in the bag alright -

dime bag, that is. :hide:

[bpeale]

153. [sounds of deafening clapping!!!] you rock!!!

[fightthegoodfightnow]

154. Barrack Will Be Defeated?

This from the person who is 'neutral' and 'dislikes' both Clinton and Obama so much that he feels obliged to say "Obama ha BAGGAGE DELUXE" whatever the f*ck that means.

LOL. Whatever.

[quakerboy]

155. One little point

I dont feel that your comment regarding the flag picture and veterans is accurate.

I spent most of my day Yesterday sitting in the waiting areas at the local VA hospital. I heard Obama mentioned 26 times, and not a single time was it negative. McCain was mentioned 3 times in my hearing, and 2 of those were negatives. Clinton once, and negative.

Other than that, I generaly agree. Obama needs and wants all of us. One little problem with the "he should make peace with the Clinton camp" assertion. How can you make peace with someone who is doing their level best to beat you about the head and shoulders? Aside from suspending his campaign, how might Obama make this peace?

[varelse]

158. You are absolutely right

but maybe you need to try writing to him or his campaign staff also?

Like you, I don't have a dog in this fight (anymore) so my concern is not about Hillary specifically - or even necessarily about "her" voters. It's about the Democratic party and its natural allies winning this next GE.

What I'm seeing is the 'reaching across the aisle' causing Obama to lean so far away from a significant portion of the Democratic voters that he's in danger of losing more from that party than he will gain from the moderate independents and the disaffected Republican voters.

[StClone]

160. Porcupines mating

Time, patience and care.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

161. We'll need each other if we're going to win in November

It will take every single one of us working together to GOTV, phone-banking, canvasing and spreading the real message of our candidate.

Clinton cannot win without embracing Obama's suporters.

Obama cannot win without embracing Clinton's supporters.

We're either in this together as a team or we'll lose to McCain.

[Laelth]

162. I believe he does have it "in the bag."

And I applaud your call for gracious unity and reconciliation.

But there is a certain contingent that seems to want to fight to the bitter end, and to every attack Obama responds in kind. He refuses to be swift-boated, and I don't blame him.

Rebublics beware! Obama will fight back!

That is the message his campaign is announcing loudly and clearly in its pursuit of the Democratic nomination, and I think it's a wise strategy. If Hillary continues to get pummeled as a result, it is only because she refuses to see the writing on the wall.

Many of her supporters also refuse to see that writing, and I can't blame them. I admire their passion, but it is not the time for Obama to be gracious and conciliatory. Once Hillary concedes defeat, I suspect he will be.

:dem:

-Laelth

[onehandle]

164. Massive cockiness is perilous indeed.

Obama needs all of us to pull this off.

I will not rely on the youth vote that has NEVER shown up in the General Election.

[Politicalboi]

165. What desperate measures has

Obama resorted to to steal an election. That is why this Obama supporter will have a very hard time voting for Hillary in the GE. It's a matter of principle with me. We didn't like it when Bush stole our election two times. And I for sure do not condone that kind of behavior even from Hillary.

[pnwmom]

166. Great, practical, realistic post! K & R.

I wish we had more posts like this one, and more DUers with a sense of history.

[jannyk]

170. One of the most intelligent posts in weeks - thank you! K&R

[fuzzy otter pop]

171. this argument has been put forward in the past

it was total B. S. then and it is total B.S. now



i heard it 88, 92, 2000 2004
and
now

it was not a big deal then
and it wont be a big deal now

give it a rest

agent Durden

[Matteon]

174. The debate tonight

showed the similarities on issues between them.

When Obama wins he will pick up the Hillary backers.

[susankh4]

175. He still has a long way to go on healthcare.

The nurses I watched with were very clear that what he was saying sucked.

But... he'll come around.... with HRC as his VP. She will hold his feet to the fire.

[devilindisguise]

177. Great Post

I agree with most of your comments. There does seem to be some confusion in posts I've read here. Some do seem to believe this is the only board, blog, etc. I also get around to different places besides web sites. There is a lot of confusion. Talked to someone today who said "who are we going to vote for". "We" as in everyone. If Obama gets it, Hillary supporters will not be generous. And, not to plagiarize, but I know someone said this: "When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy".

[susankh4]

204. "When Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy".

Haha.

I think that's about right!

It's time to figure out a way to bring the party together. Cuz... alot of us "mamas" do alot of the grunt work around here.

[2QT2BSTR8]

180. I have to admit that I have a sheep since I joined DU...but respectfully I have to disagree with you

Since I joined DU in November of 2005, I have had less than 100 posts on DU. I have always absorbed information more than I have commented on it, but that aside I have to chime in on this.

For the past year I make my daily pilgrimage to DU, and I find it very sad to see my party who speaks of change and of unification go out for a tit for tat battle like your post.

I was a Hillary supporter in the start, but over the months I have easily switched to Obama for one reason and for one reason alone. He is the first candidate in my 37 year old lifetime that I can look at, and listen to, and honestly believe him to be the very best choice we have before us.

To share a short story with you. I was talking with my 68 year old mother who lives in New Mexico the other night about the race. For my entire life, both of my folks have bled red to vote Republican. They are very old school traditionalists that simply bought into the neocon mindset. Now keep in mind, I try to never talk about politics with my folks because we always in the past got into a huge fight over the idiot in the WH, whom they HAD both supported without skipping a beat. Now I just about had a stroke, or thought she was having one when my mom told me that she was voting for Obama. When I asked her why, she replied "I don't trust the Republicans at all anymore, and I sure as hell don't trust Hillary". I asked her to elaborate, and we both came to the same consensus. Obama is the only candidate that, in our eyes, had not been corrupted by Washington. Sure he has his baggage, but so does the old mare. How does that old song go? "<humming> The old grey mare she ain't what she used to be." Well, unfortunately for Hillary, she is the same old gray mare. Hillary is a shining example of the status quo of what IS Washington. She is an insider, she has her pockets lined, and she has been corrupted by Washington long before she got there.

Obama gives me hope. Obama gives me the dream that once was this country. Obama helps me to believe that we can put this country back on track.

The one thing that did disappoint me though, is I asked her, "What if Hillary is nominated?" Her reply: "I wont vote". And do you want to know why Mr. Durden? Why my parents after 60+ years of voting Republican are voting for Obama, is because of two things. 1. What the chimp in the WH has done. 2. Because of articles like yours that portray Hillary as the 2nd coming of Christ come to save the nation.

Mr. Durden I respect your opinion, but I think that with you as a leading poster to DU, it is important for you, as well as others, to remember that there are people like me that watch what you put to paper, or the web as it were, and let whatever happens happen! Whoever wins I will support, I may not like it if it is Hillary, but I will still vote for her as she shares some of the same ideas as Mr. Obama. I am not saying don't campaign for who you believe in. At the same time, it is important for you to remember that your "do it or die" mindset is only serving to shut down the voters like myself. To say that I am stupid to be an Obama supporter is an insult, and I do not appreciate it. I may not be vocal that often, but I also don't like being pistol whipped into scare tactics that we are all going to go down in flames if Hillary does not win. To anyone, if you have taken the time to read my post, I appreciate your time and thank you!

[Adamocrat]

235. As another GAY...

My eyes just glaze over when I hear Obama speak. After the destruction of Dean and Kerry in the previous cycle, I'm sick of rhetorical B.S. (and that's all Obama seems to have). At the very least, and I mean the VERY least, I know that Hillary Clinton won't take away my right to exist and put me into some weird ex-gay concentration camp. Obama's connection to those people (McClurkin) are just too close to home, and too near the bone, etc. I don't want a charismatic president. I want one who can get down to business and fix the mess(es) we're in.

[2QT2BSTR8]

181. 2nd post in error- delete

Double post - deleting this one.

[bvar22]

183. What are you going to do? Vote Republican?

Stay home?

Obama does NOT need to "court" anyone.

ALL Democrats NEED to line up and support the nominee.
Period.

I am NOT an Obama or a Hillary supporter.
I don't expect any real change from either one of their "Centrist" Corporate Owned asses,

BUT on Election Day, I WILL line up and vote DEMOCRATIC.

Anyone who feels like they need to be courted before they will vote for the DEMOCRAT is beneath my contempt.

[2QT2BSTR8]

184. AMEN bvar!

[Tarc]

199. Do you know how to read all the posts in a thread?

He's already said he will vote for the democratic nominee.

And yet Clinton supporters would need to be courted, just as Obama supporters would if Hillary wins. There's been more than a bit of invective and venom all around over the last few months.

[susankh4]

205. Obama does NOT need to "court" anyone.

Then why is he out there kissing independent and republican ass?

[guyanakoolaid]

185. How shall we court them?

Shall we bake them cookies, take them to the movies (a nice tearjerker perhaps), hold their hand and sing "Up With People"?

The entire gist of your post is misguided. Obama has refrained from going negative, even after the negative attacks by the Clintons, and he has continuously sought unification with not just all Dems but Republicans, too. It's more than a tad disingenuous for Clinton to insult Obama supporters, telling them to "get real", awhile you belittle them as "valley girls", only to tell them they have to do more to win your love.

If you want to bemoan a candidates lack of "general support of the party", Obama should be the last current candidate (of either party) you should be discussing.

[speedoo]

186. Man, there is so much wrong in your post.

I almost dismissed your post out of hand after you tried to compare McGovern in 1972 with Obama in 2008. I loved George, worked my ass off for him, but there was no way he could win that election, given the mood of the country. The wind was in his face, but the anti-Bush wind will be at Obama's back. Ridiculous comparison, IMO.

But I decided to read your post, only to find your claim that "Obama already has BAGGAGE DELUXE. Hell, you alienate every Veteran over the age of 40 just with that picture of him standing in front of the flag without hand over heart." Well, I'm a veteran, well over 40, and I could care less about Obama not having his hand over his heart. And if you think Obama's got baggage, Hillary has more than any dem candidate I can recall. I live in NY and I can tell you, people even in her home state can't stand her.

Give up the all caps, by the way. It does not help you make your weak case.

[99th_Monkey]

187. You may hate them both, but you sound like a Hillary shill .. ah .. i mean supporter. nt

[ErnestoG]

189. True. His OP is sending my Bullshit-meter into the red zone.

[Tyler Durden]

208. You aren't helping EITHER.

I'm beginning to think that perhaps, as I told the other guy, I should shut up and let your campaign alienate the Clinton Supporters. After all, I'm a SOCIALIST. I WANT massive political change.

Maybe Madman McCain and his war machine combined with Pelosi and her merry band of collaborators is exactly the way to speed up the process. Maybe I should just shut up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

228. That IS how your namesake would do it --

burn down the whole MF mess.

Creative anarchy.

[Tyler Durden]

251. Don't temp me.

I didn't just pull this name out because I liked the movie.

[Tyler Durden]

207. Thank you for making my point for me.

How many possible Obama supporters from the ranks of other candidates does the campaign lose every time something like what you just said hits "YouTube?"

Hey, I don't have a horse in this race. You have to worry about offending people who've worked for a campaign for almost a YEAR and still think THEY are the correct ones. This isn't how you go about fixing things.

But hey, I want to see Democratic Socialism come to North America sooner rather than later, so maybe a Democratic Party Schism and President McCain are in MY interest and I should just shut up.

[99th_Monkey]

233. Two months ago, I couldn't have imagined I'd be defending Obama from attacks like yours

I started out with Kucinich, then Edwards ... then I saw Ted & Caroline's endorsement speeches .. the announcement..

.. then one of my sons (the political wonk) encouraged me to listen to Obama's "concession" speech when he lost NH .. and damn..
the guy does have some kind of fire and eloquence and ability to make broad appeal .. to reconcile, and (dare I say) to heal.

and I'm UTTERLY opposed to seeing any continuation of the cozy Bush/Clinton Dynasty's rule over our ailing nation.. so here
I am, defending Obama from what I feel was an unjustified attack in your OP.

I DO get the point of your OP, but feel you could have made the point much better and more convincingly (for me at least) without
acting like an attack dog towards Obama and his supporters... the vitriol was unnecessary and counterproductive IMHO.

[Tyler Durden]

238. If I'm wrong on ONE ITEM in my OP, point it out to me.

None of that was "Vitriol." BOTH campaigns have made what I said look like complements.

It is far past time that the Obama Campaign, IF as they say they have this one nicked, should take the moral High Ground. Not one item that I cited was something I didn't see here, other places on the net, or actually HEAR out on the street.

If you want to talk vitriol, comparing a Democratic Party Candidate to the Bush Family of Evil is a good start, and a great place to stop. NEITHER one of these candidates or campaigns is squeaky clean, and the winner will need the loser's help. So in the words of an old song:

"You gonna neeeeed my help someday....
So if you can't stop your sinnin'-PLEASE...
QUIT YOUR LOW DOWN WAYS."

(The "my" is rhetorical. Personally, I've gotten to the point where I don't give a damn WHO gets nominated, and I'm only marginally more concerned whether or not they get elected. I haven't truly had a horse in this race since 1972.)

[MrSlayer]

190. I just joined the cult but I do not think he has it "in the bag" yet.

But he's pulling that bag up around It's torso right about now. If he wins Texas and Ohio that bag is closed and slung over the shoulder.

[amborin]

191. my husband won't vote for Obama

he's going to sit this election out

i'll vote for Obama, but reluctantly, and with trepidation

my husband's disgusted with many Obama supporters' vicious attacks on Hillary

as the OP writes, too many more dems like my husband and we lose the GE

[mitchtv]

250. I got about three around me

all MexAM. Partner,partner's sister and Niece the love HIllarygay/. I keep telling them USSC but they are distrustful of rhetoric ( they are all older like me in precisely the demographic Obama is weakest in. MCCain has some goodwill with Mexican Americans too. Neice said she will bolt ( they are fundies anyway)

[TheDonkey]

192. DROP OUT HILLARY

stop spreading your hate and lies against the Obama campaign.

[Tarc]

200. Obama first.

:)

[aquart]

246. And this is what makes the Obama campaign so like the Bush campaigns.

Utterly revolting behavior.

[candymarl]

193. Nice try Tyler

I get your point and I agree. What's more important? Hating Hillary and the DLC, or winning in November? The DLC and Hillary are not going to disappear between now and then.

There has been an overwhelming Democratic turn out for the primaries. However, some percentage of those voters did vote for Hillary. We need enough votes in the GE to keep the Republicans from stealing this one. To tell any Democrat that their vote is not needed is political suicide.

We're supposed to be the reality based folks. The reality is - all Democratic votes and voters are important. You don't have to like it but that's the way it is.

I would never suggest disenfranchising Obama supporters if the situation were reversed. Aren't we the party that wants every vote to count? Even the votes of those with whom we disagree?

The Republicans win unless there is massive voter turnout absent a third party Republican challenger.

I do not want to wake up to President McCain.

[kentj44]

194. the main difference i see

between the two candidates is that clinton is campaigning to be president and barrack is campaigninng on a movement.

[BringBigDogBack]

195. I like your sig.

[ellisonz]

196. As soon as Hillary drops the fuck out.

:eyes:

[Drifter]

201. Exactly ...

Once Hillary finds reality, and realizes that she has no chance to take the nomination (not to mention the general). For the party, she needs to get out now before the big embarrassment that will be the Texas and Ohio primaries. She needs a virtual shut out in those contests, and it doesn't look like she she can even win at all.

It is time for the party to unite behind Obama.
We do not just need to win in November, we need to CRUSH them to put an end to this nonsensical conservative movement that has put America on the brink of destruction.

Please Hillary, the time is now to drop out.

Cheers
Drifter

[madwivoter]

212. I like your 'obligatory disclaimer'

Ha! Good stuff.

Thanks for just being you. These posts get me through my day.

[alphafemale]

216. Frankly? At this point? We may not need you in the General Election,

Go pout in the corner.

[Orsino]

219. Take two steps forward, and genuflect.

Speak politely of Her Majesty, or she will endorse McCain. Or her courtiers will jump ship to the Republican Party. Or something.

Jesus Christ. Honey does catch more flies than vinegar, but I don't see either side as the villain here. We're simply witnessing a hotly-contested race, with neither faction able to score the most points against the other. Hillarites, heal thyself.

I will be interested to see which candidate first tries to be the adult, and to build a coalition--but who is honestly worried about Clinton supporters voting Republican rather than for Obama, or vice-versa?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

222. Nice rant, old timer! K & R.

:toast:

[Tyler Durden]

240. Creak.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

257. mmmff

:spray:

:rofl:

[MUL98]

223. Who cares...

...Obama and Clinton are both Republicrats looking to drag the party even further to the right. There are no real choices left in this election.

[Independent-Voter]

225. Ahh Sidhartha - that mountain top must be cold this time of year

[Imagevision]

227. This post is from a very unhappy Billary supporter, they'll get over it though...

[Tyler Durden]

239. Same old BS.

You don't get it all, do you? My horse is not in this race, I don't give two shits which one of the ones left get the nod, and I'm only marginally more concerned whether the one who does get nominated gets elected.

I haven't had a horse in this race since 1972. YOU are WRONG, and that attitude will not win friends or influence anybody. I'd say the same damned thing to a Clinton supporter if the tables were turned.

Both campaigns should be ashamed of themselves.

[elizm]

254. Clinton supporters I know personally have graciously conceded...

...And never had the arrogance to think that I should need to COURT them. They fully expect to support Barack Obama as the nominee. It is only here on DU that the Clinton supporters spew such hate towards him and his supporters.