how upset would you be if the superdelegates destroyed our party?

[mdmc]

Picture this - Obama will the rest of the primaries. He is on a 14 and 0 winning streak. He has more popular votes, and more delegates, but does not have enough to win the nomination.
The Clinton camp fights on - they circle the wagons. Through hard work and back deal bargaining, they are able to secure the nomination. It is not a democratic win, but it is a win none the less.
I doubt the party could survive such an ordeal. But I, myself, would love to see it.
It would be somewhat historic, but I think it has happened before (historians - please check in).

Would Nader run? Would Bloomberg? Could Howard Dean keep us all together? What would the GOP do? I think it would be very interesting.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. I'd give up.

I've got better things to do.

That said, it won't happen.

[CitizenRob]

32. Same here.

I love our party, but I'm not willing to let a few elites select a bad candidate (Hillary) for me. If they want to lose the election for the party, so be it.

[Bucky]

2. What the-- ?

Worrying about superdelegates was like two weeks ago. Where have you been?

The only way superdelegates can destroy our party is if they enter the convention hall firing bazookas.

[mdmc]

9. There is no worry? Obama has it in the bag?

For true?

[Bucky]

25. No, he doesn't have it bagged. If he wins Ohio & Texas in two weeks, it's over.

If he wins Texas but not Ohio, he can still bury Clinton in Pennsylvania. If Clinton wins both Ohio and Pennsylvania, it's a 50-50 ball game. Even then, the Florida and Michigan uncommitted delegates will break to Obama. This nomination is Obama's to lose. If he can't close the deal here, he's not the man I voted for.

[Cameron27]

67. Good post

:thumbsup:

[mac2]

28. Obama like Bush was a drug addict

He admitted it in the book he wrote. Once that gets out we won't win. I was shocked our party would pick such a person for public office let alone President.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/01/chicago_suntime.html Obama can't seem to get his facts right.

No druggie for President as far as I'm concerned even if he is "recovered". His extremist personality gave up drugs for religious agenda just like Bush. Faith Based cronyism is also a belief of Obama.

They pushed him as a "savior" when he needed to have one himself.

Hillary and Obama are both globalists.

"We couldn't do better than that." a caller asked today on Air America when talking about both candidates.

When the Air America caller talked about Obama's home being paid for by a man now under investigation, Ed Schultz said, Oh Edwards has a big home too. There is a difference Ed. Edwards didn't have his home arranged or paid for by anyone but himself. He was a good lawyer.

Where is Edwards now that we have two candidates which can not win?

[mdmc]

33. both can beat Mac

I read both of his books, and don't remember him mentioning being a drug addict. But then again my short term memory is fired up, ready to go.

[mac2]

36. Drugs by Obama mentioned by an advisor of Hillary

She apologized for it. He was gone.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2007/12/14/2007-12-14_hillary_clinton_apologizes_for_aides_cra.html

It's in Dreams of My Father by Obama.

They hide Obama's drug problems from us?

[backscatter712]

69. Lose the right wing lies.

Where did you hear that trash, Rush Limbaugh?

[polichick]

3. I'd join Donna Brazile as she walked out the door. nt

[LakeSamish706]

5. Your absolutely correct, because she has already stated she would do just that. n/t

[mac2]

23. I'd show her the way.

Both Donna and Howard have been there too long. They've lost elections and ignored the mandate of the Democratic party members from 2000.

Actually most Americans of both parties voted for the mandate to get out of Iraq, etc. Bring our troops home. They want National Health Care. They want our debt and trade policy gone, etc. They want accountability for the plunded money. They don't want amnesty but our borders secure. They want us to be respected in the world not spread fear and do plunder.

What do Democrats do when they gain a majority? They ask for health care for just children. They fund the illegal war. They give Bush everything he asks for.

Donna supports Faith Based funding, etc. How dare she talk on TV about what we "Democrats" are doing or believe. She doesn't represent me.

I want that leadership gone.

Who are leading candidates for President from our party? A man who was a drug addict, supports globalism, won't impeach the criminal President, and gives a good speech (written by another person). Hillary Clinton who is also a globalist, voted for war, won't impeach the criminal President, etc.

John Edwards and Dennis Kucinich come back we need you to be our "d"emocratic leaders.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. I'd give her a good shove to make sure

she actually left. She might as well be working for the GOP these days.

[TheDebbieDee]

62. And I'd slam the door against her hairy ass as she she walked out....

Donna Brazile is a friggin RNC operative and has been for a long time.

[VenusRising]

56. Howard Dean has not lost us elections.

His 50 state strategy is one that has gained us many seats in important areas.

It was Terry Mcauliffe and the DLC that lost us elections when he was DNC chair from 2001-05.

[mac2]

60. Seats in important areas?

We couldn't win against corrupt, land deal fraud Hastert in Illinois? We had a chance to win more seats but they were Progressive Democrats who were against the war so they got no support financially or politically. They blew it.

The country was set for a Progressive government but the DLC didn't want it. We should have had a comfortable lead if those candidates had support of the party leaders.

[surfermaw]

4. This subject is nothing but a bunch crap, to try to make Hillary look bad

It not going to happen, it never was going to happen, so why keep posting the crap, those delegates have been selected and are responsible, so why post the crap.

[mdmc]

16. She is in it to win it my friend

If she can't do it at the polls, but she can do it in the backroom, why wouldn't she.
Bill makes HRC look bad for real (at least in SC). This is a what if post at DU D:p - it is nothing - for true - except a discussion on the web.

[DemBones DemBones]

54. So is Barack Obama, so what?

You don't think he's ever done any back room deals? :rofl:

[mac2]

61. Back room deals? You bet.

Obama and his wife are both members of the Council on Foreign Relations. A secret meeting group who help decide our foreign policy.

Yes...Hillary and Bill Clinton belong to the Bilderberg Group.

No Americans politican past of present should belong to any secret group who meet without press or openness.

We have to declare those groups illegal and ask them to not attend them in our name. Challenge them about it.

[Exilednight]

6. I highly doubt it will happen, but for arguments sake, let's say it does ...

I would seriously consider about leaving the Democratic party. What is the point of calling ourselves Democrats if we can not use the democratic process to choose our candidate. After the 2000 fiasco of bush v Gore, I hold very strong views about this.

[DURHAM D]

7. I am way more worried about the cross over Repubs. eom

[mac2]

43. We should be

Why would they vote Democratic when McCain is the same globlaist...Amensty agenda person?

[IndianaGreen]

8. They won't do that!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w68rOsJa74o

Despite Hillary's threats to fight to get her "delegates" from Florida and Michigan seated at the convention, and then getting the superdelegates to ignore the popular will, the grown ups in the Democratic Party will vote for the candidate with the most votes and wins.

[mac2]

44. Deleted

[mac2]

45. In a perfect convention

[OHdem10]

10. No more upset than when the GOP and Indies determine

our candidate. They can once again vote in Dem. Primary in Texas.(Schneider
on CNN read the Texas Law re this afternoon.

I do not understand why you want to chew on this.
The Super Delegates will go with the people. We
have been told this over and over. What is the beef???

[mdmc]

19. I will believe it when I see it

until then I have my doubts:shrug:

[DemVet]

27. Huh uh...

The Super Delegates will go with the people.

Not necessarily. Superdelegates polled by my local paper still have a lot of DIE HARD Hillary supporters here in Virginia, a state that went for Obama.
Some cited that they gave her their word and they are sticking to it.

Super Delegates are supposed to vote their conscience, not who their district or state voted for. That was the reason of giving them a say when the super delegate system was instituted.

[OHdem10]

35. Most of them will look out for their own interest. They are not

going to chance losing their office, or position in the Party.

[mac2]

63. The beef is with which people. Clinton or Obama

when the Super Delegates vote at the convention. It might be close or even "almost". See post #22.

[Fredda Weinberg]

11. I wish you'd remember why we have 'em in the first place.

Our party is diverse and selfish interests tore it apart for decades. We wanted winners to help pick other winners.

That is not evil or undemocratic. It happened for a reason and I don't see how circumstances have changed.

[mdmc]

20. the superdelegates are from the electable wing of the democratic party

What you term "winners" I term triangulators.

Why do we have superdelegates?

[Fredda Weinberg]

26. In the wake of the McGovern debacle, the scheme was erected

and to this day, I still think he was a great candidate ... definitely represented our party. But our party has spent too much time out of the white house to dismiss successful triangulators. So this election cycle, we have a real competition - and we'll be stronger for it.

[mdmc]

29. but if all we run are triangulators, we really lose, even if we win

Perhaps we can blame Nader again:shrug:

Of course I love McGovern. I think that Jimmy Carter was the best president in my lifetime.

[Fredda Weinberg]

38. I trudged through 5' of snow to try to re-elect him. It was my first

presidential election and I was crushed. But best president in my lifetime? We would have to disagree. I appreciated eight years of relative peace and prosperity ... Carter's years were turbulent and insecure.

[mdmc]

50. well, I was in fifth grade when Carter lost to Raygun

I thought the world was going to end and that I would be sent to fight in Iran when I turned 18
:patriot:

[Fredda Weinberg]

55. And that's why we have super delegates. Not perfect, but a balance

And the system continues to adjust. Maybe their time has passed ... but that's not what I see this season.

[mdmc]

74. The sheeple wanted bonzo - there was no need for superdelegates

Ray-gun would have won no matter who we fielded, imho. The superdelegates had nothing to offer us back then.

The sheeple thought Ray-gun was nice, they didn't believe in his meanness.

The charm and charisma of a candidate wins elections. Superdelegates have nothing to counter it.

[mac2]

59. They've been causing chaos in that area of the world

since the first world war (for oil of course).

[Exilednight]

31. winners to pick other winners? I've been out of school longer than some of these kids with ...

super delegates have been alive. It would be one thing if it was the wisest of the wise, but it's not. I literally saw a 20 year old kid that holds the power of 13,000 regular voters.

[Hippo_Tron]

39. That kid got hyped up a lot by the media, most superdelegates are not that young

[Exilednight]

51. I've seen more than one, and the fact that there are any proves the system is broken

[Hippo_Tron]

40. Yup the winners picked Mondale

He was a real winner, let me tell ya.

[mac2]

64. It's better to say we've had divisions in the party regarding

important issues so we solve them at the convention.

[mac2]

73. See post #46

[Redstone]

12. Very. And if they overruled the will of the voters, it WOULD destroy the Democratic party.

I'd not "love to see it," though. Not THIS year.

Redstone

[mac2]

30. I thought they ruined the Democratic Party

this year by having Edwards and Kucinich drop out before Super Tuesday. We Progressives lost before even the Primary by our own party. They only want and support only DLC picked pro-war candidates.

Michigan and Florida delegates were dismissed for them wanting to hold their primary early like Iowa and New Hampshire.

The Super Delegate thing is not fair.

All these actions weren't democratic at all but manipulation by the leaders of our party. I don't really care who they want to win now since it was determined before I even voted in the Primary.

[0007]

13. I'd be a mighty pissed off tiger.

[liberalnurse]

14. The variable is in play....

rarely use, yet legal and has always been in the process.

So be it; Yes, it will be highly likely that the super delegates will have to do their job. We had our turn.

[RamboLiberal]

15. As pissed as I was in 2000 when Chimpy stole the election - nt

[islandmkl]

17. old redneck question: "How'd that work out for ya?"....

General answer: "Not toooooo gooood!"

[thevoiceofreason]

18. They won't -- just be calm.

[mdmc]

21. I wouldn't mind if they did

I'd like to see Obama win the white house, but perhaps it is time for a real new deal. A new party for a new deal.

I am pretty calm my friend. I know there is nothing that I can do about it except discuss it with my buds.

[Bucky]

22. Historical precedents for brokered conventions

Humphrey in 1968 was brokered in because the leading delegate holder, Johnson, had already withdrawn from the race. There was violence that year, but it had damn little to do with delegate bargaining. The hippies rumbling with the cops in Chicago's streets weren't dejected Bobby or MacCarthy supporters; They were war protestors.

Before that, you'd have to go to the 1924 convention where the leading delegate holder was Gov. Al Smith of New York. Dems had their 2/3rds rule back then, so some nobody shmooo named Joe Davis (a Democratic lawyer & power broker from New York) beat out the popular, but controversially Catholic Smith. It took them 100 ballots before they cut the deal to put Davis in. Smith went on to get clobbered by Hoover four years later, so his ability to kayo Coolidge was at best negligible. Davis himself was so obscure that he actually disappeared in mid October and his own children didn't even call the cops until Christmas--a real "I thought pops was with you" thing.

That was the era of the brokered convention. The 1920 convention is the most famous brokered Dem national convention. Screen icon William Jennings Bryan, recently raised from the dead, was just shy of a majority, so he couldn't patch together the 2/3 vote required. His opponents were Woodrow Wilson's son in law Bill McAdoo (also Sec'y of Treasury) William McAdoo and the prequel fascist AG A. Mitchell Palmer, famous for the anticonstitutional Palmer Raids during the Red Scare that followed WW1. After 44 ballots, they compromised on another non-candidate, Gov. James Cox of Ohio.

As a rule, then, brokered candidates don't win.

[TexasObserver]

24. I would immediately focus entirely on the Senate and House seats put at-risk by that decision.

Revenge is a dish best served cold, and I would serve it up when it wouldn't hurt the party, and that means first win, then strip some people of their choice assignments in congress. For the DNC types, it means kicking them off the DNC. For the VIPs, like Bob Strauss (if he voted wrong), it would mean stripping those offenders of their titles and positions.

That is exactly what I will want done.

First we win all the races we can, then we settle all the family business, starting the day after the election when the dust settles.

[yourout]

34. At that point it would be time for a 3rd party......Is there a Labor party already?

[mac2]

37. Our attempts to build a third party has always been

destroyed from within. I'm sure Ross Perot did it on purpose just when he thought he might win. Jessie Ventura made sure the 3rd party was destroyed.

If a third party does exist it would be good to do it now. There are parties which disappeared throughout our history. We no longer have a Wig party. The candidates really have to be qualified for President.

I don't know why Ron Paul stays with Republicans or Edwards and Kucinich stay with Democrats. They are good candidates who get little media attention when they have the agenda and plan for America we want...mostly.

Kucinich (D-OH) might lose his Congressional seat because of his amnesty stand.

Where are the Constitutional representatives today?

Here's the list of Presidential candidates. http://www.votesmart.org/election_president_search.php?type=alpha

I don't see a Labor Party listed. Democrats are supposed to be for labor and the working person.

[mdmc]

47. we have a working families party in NYS

close to "labor party"

[mac2]

58. Hi to NYer

I was born, raised and educated in Western NY State. I miss it and the people. I live in the MW now. It's so different. Not as many go on to college. They have a more divided financial structure of society. Each keep in their own.

People in this area tell me they "expect" their politicians to be corrupt. I would never "expect" any such thing being a NYer.

When there is no candidate for your party do you endorse the regular Democratic Party candidates for that office...or independents, etc.?

[mdmc]

72. the wfp almost always endorses the dem, unless the dem is a neo-con

then the wfp might endorse a liberal gop.

I always vote for the best candidate.

[demo dutch]

41. This primary has already destroyed the party, Super delegates will just top it off

[mac2]

42. I agree

See #30.

[mac2]

46. Here's how the Super Delegate thing works

http://www.kptv.com/politics/15065561/detail.html

[whatchamacallit]

48. This is how it is for me

It depends on how well she does in Texas and Ohio. If she doesn't pull off big wins she needs to pack it in. If the shoe was on the other foot and Hillary was winning the way Obama has been, I'd already be getting my head around voting for her in the GE. But she's not. So if she discounts the party majority and manages to steal the nomination through some technical means, you can count me out. I've had my fill of broken-shit elections.

[suston96]

49. I think I am beginning to get it.....The DNC rules are OK to trash voters in Michigan and Florida...

...but they are no good regarding what superdelegates are intended to do....

Yeah, I get it......

[mac2]

57. Back room politics like in the times of the Robber Barons

Yes..they are back.

[suston96]

66. Time to end these primary horrors - primary dates, caucuses, delegates uncounted...

..It is NOT a DNC/State matter: God damn it, it's about a presidential election process that MUST be governed and protected by all the constitutional dogmatics, written or implied, that guarantee every citizen to participate fully and equally in their own self-governance.

It is NOT about candidate blind partisanship. It's about the very fiber of a democratic republic.

[bigtree]

52. I don't think the candidates will let them,

[LWolf]

65. That outcome?

With that outcome, I would simply shrug to see the obvious corruption of the process play out, and watch Democratic voters turn a blind eye to that corruption.

With a different outcome: a brokered convention that denied the nomination to both HRC and Obama, I'd sigh with relief and move forward. There's nothing democratic about the primary process as it stands. I'll happily support reform of the WHOLE process, which includes booting out superdelegates. Until then, I think a Clinton OR an Obama presidency will be bad for the nation, and bad for the party, so I'd be thrilled with a way out.

[backscatter712]

68. I would make it my mission in life to destroy the party.

Since at that point it would be clear the that Democratic Party cares more about it's insider agenda than about the American people.

I'd leave, I'd join the mass exodus from the party, and I would work to make sure none of the insiders continued to have a job in November.

That said, I'm not too worried - it looks like the superdelegates are switching to Obama.

[marshall]

70. Maybe we'll move to a three or four party system

A party for left and a party for the right, and one or two parties in the middle.

[mdmc]

75. I feel like we have a three party system right now

We have the libertarian right, mainstream (gop + dlc), and the liberal left.

[lapfog_1]

71. Why would you love to see it?

I can understand someone that wants Hillary to stage a comeback, to win the primaries from here on out, to have more pledged delegates than Obama and then to win the nomination.

But I can't understand someone that wants her to win literally by "doing anything" to win.

Frankly, it would set the party up to lose big in the fall. So many young supporters of OBama's would leave the process for this year (by having him lose ugly). As for me, I was a major donor in the Green Party in 2000 (after joining the Greens in 1994 because the Democrats wouldn't run a congressional candidate that stood up to corporate polluters). However, I did not contribute to the Ralph Nader campaign and wrote many emails to fellow Greens urging them not to go this route. When Gore "lost" the Presidency, I resigned from the Green Party and rejoined the Democrats. Should the Democrats become very. uh, Undemocratic, then I will likely leave the Democratic Party as well. And so will a lot of young people.

If Hillary wins the most pledged delegates, I have no problem supporting her this fall. But your scenario is our nightmare. I have no idea why you like it so much.

Lest you think that my leaving would be no big deal, I have contributed well over $20,000 to Democrats in 2002, 2004, and 2006. Ok, I'm not Mr. DeepPockets. Even with my contributions (which are scattered to many different races, usually in $200 and $400 increments) I rarely rate a "special invite" to a party or something. But overall, it represents a great deal of money to ME. But I suspect that many OBama backers, especially the ones new to the Democratic party, would leave as well out of disgust. Such behavior is certainly not one that will win new converts to the Party or contributions to the many 100's of races that we need to win to maintain control of the House and Senate.

Just so you know, if Obama shows up to the convention with fewer pledged delegates, I would expect that he would fold up long before the convention and support Hillary, thereby unifying the party and, for him, waiting till 2012 or 2016 to run again.

[mdmc]

76. some folks think that the dlc has already destroyed the dem party

This would be a chance to start over.
Lets give workers a real new deal.