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Obama said ‘I believe I showed the judgment of a commander in chief’

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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:41 AM
Original message
Obama said ‘I believe I showed the judgment of a commander in chief’
But what exactly did Obama mean when he said “showed the judgment”? Notice he said “said” showed. Sadly, that’s exactly what Obama is about. He shows. And he admits it.

And then Obama continues: "I said this is going to distract us from Afghanistan; this is going to fan the flames of anti-American sentiment; it's going to cost us billions of dollars and thousands of lives and overstretch our military. And I was right" Well, not exactly Mr. Obama. I searched your anti-war speech and you never even mentioned Afghanistan. And you never mentioned anti-American sentiment.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

In December 2002, actress and comedienne Janeane Garofalo said "We feel that military action in Iraq will allow the terrorists to fan the flames of anti-American sentiment and further destabilize the Middle East" but not you.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/12/10/sproject.irq.celebrity.letter/


In early October of 2007, perhaps on the third or the day before, you said “Five years ago today, I was asked to speak at a rally against going to war in Iraq”.

It was in October of 2007 then you talked about Afghanistan and , not in 2002, not before the October 11 IWR vote, not before the Iraq invasion.

http://liberalview-fromtherightofamerica.blogspot.com/2007/10/obama-5-years-ago-today.html

The lie here, Mr. Obama, is that your speech was October 26th not October 2nd. The significance of the 26th date is that by that time you had access to many speeches by senators which you obviously used in your26th speech.

And someone has even had the courage to change the date in the wikisource version of you speech. How cunning.

http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama%27s_Iraq_Speech&diff=prev&oldid=589293

The date is significant, and the lie is telling. Obama has not shown the judgment of a commander in chief. Obama has shown the judgment of an obfuscator.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. lol
from lame to lamer. This is such penny ante stuff. Some of you have become so desperate that you're to be pitied.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Your sense of humor has taken a Dixie.
There is nothing at all funny about this.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. only Cali is allowed to make these judgments, doncha know?
I don't happen to think a speech made from the safe position of a state legislator seat in a liberal district is any match for having the actual responsibility for that vote. Obama's blurring of that distinction between having the responsibility and making an opportunistic speech is dishonest and self-serving.

He pulled his punches for Kerry, at the 2004 convention, who had cast the identical Iraq resolution vote as Clinton. "What would I have done?" he responded when asked about that vote. "I don't know," Obama told the New York Times.

Obama never spoke out in any overt way against the occupation when he got in to the Senate. In June of 2006, Obama voted against a proposal by Sen. John Kerry to remove most troops from Iraq within a year, calling it an "arbitrary deadline" that could "compound" previous US missteps there.

Obama gave his first major speech about Iraq as a member of the Senate in November 2005, 11 months into his term. He didn't introduce legislation to end the war until last January, when he was exploring a run for president.

He first voted against funding for the war in May 2007, after he had declared his candidacy for president.

Not exactly the opposition he pretends in this campaign..

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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. You just can't get past Hillary's IWR vote, can you? nt
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. BINGO. n/t
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jasmine621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Maybe you both should read Hillary's speech on the IWR in 2002
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. There are big problem with that analysis ...

one of the problems:
... can only speculate that Senator Clinton was misled by the intelligence reports that were coming out of our intelligence agencies; nonetheless, even at the time this intelligence was widely questioned by dissenting voices that turned out to be right about this issue and about the coming quagmire in Iraq.

(1) this is an admitted subjective analysis because of the use of 'speculate'

(2) it critically fails to acknowledge the true fact that all democratic senators voted for IWR resolution or at least one of the two WMD amendments except one: Senator Bob Graham who clearly stated that the rest of the democratic senators did not have access to the classified information he had

I truly do not have time to debunk the massive amount of sheer lies Obama supporters are posting here. But I do know they should be ashamed.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. From Media Matters....
http://mediamatters.org/items/200708160004

--Obama said in his October 2, 2002, speech:

OBAMA: After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again. I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism.

What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.---

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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Obama's words. So? The above mentioned analysis is wrong.
Obama's words prove nothing to me.

How he came to those words, the facts he used, the intelligence he used, appears to be this huge mystery to his supporters.

How weak the argument remains that Obama is ready to be CIC.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. His speech was on Oct 2, 2002...
quit changing the subject, liar.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. There is no proof that Obama spoke on Oct 2, 2002.
The wikipedia entry that for years said he spoke on Oct 26, 2006 was recently changed, and I gave you the proof that it was changed.
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Windy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Are you Fing kidding me! This is the problem with HRC supporters. Don't like the facts, change them
or claim "it never happened".

Please PLEASE for the sake of our country...PACK IT IN!
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #53
63. He gave that speech every other day...
for a fucking month.

Here's some more for you...

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1667361,00.html

Against that national headwind, anti-war activists in Illinois staged an Oct. 2, 2002, rally, and invited Obama to speak. A little-known state senator from one of the nation's most liberal districts, Obama was considering a bid for the U.S. Senate.

"I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances," he began at the rally, adding that he opposed only "dumb wars."

After conceding that Saddam was a ruthless butcher who coveted nuclear capacity, Obama said the Iraqi leader posed no direct threat to the United States and could be contained through international diplomacy.

"I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences," Obama said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More at the link.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #53
65. Oh, yes. Wiki is so reliable...
:eyes:
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
57. Give. It. Up. It was her VOTE that matters...NOT her speech. Poor judgement. Period. nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
59. I can't get past it because Hillary still stands by it and refuses to
call it a mistake.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. Obama is NOT anti-war....he has said he would nuke Iran and all options are on the table
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. smear, distort , smear some more....spin some more
how pathetic.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. I posted links to the actual truth.

But thanks for showing off how your would rather not discuss issues.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. In Obama OCT. 2002 speech...
he said. "I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda."

So the "fan the flames" thingy has been around a while.

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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6.  Thanks for pointing this out. He copied those words ...
from another senator.

Guess who.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. ....
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. He didn't copy one phrase. Most key parts of his speech were copied from
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 09:48 AM by Maribelle
other senators.

Notice the s on the end of senators.


And has Obama ever, even once, how he knew?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
62. How did the millions in the street around the world know?
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. Most of these didn't want war - period. Stop using these innocent people.
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 03:51 PM by Maribelle
Obama said he was only aginst dumb wars not all wars.


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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. Stop using these innocent people.
You're kidding, right?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. lol yet again. gee, I hate to break this to you
but "fan the flames" is about as common a phrase as in the English language as you could possibly find. You are funny.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. Obama's an empty suit -- and we will become a joke
Just a fact.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. But Obama's empty suit could portend dangerous situations for our country.
At least those corrupt folks that gave us the fraud Bush were powerful players on the world stage.

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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. Yes
And this is a very interesting point that I have been discussing with other Democrats -- Bush had that supportive structure to compensate for his ineptness -- I'm afraid Obama will be surrounded with lackeys who, like Obama himself, also buy the hype.

I find no comfort in Barack Obama facing Putin. Yes, a "joke" would be the least of it.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. And if Obama's supporters that have posted in this thread think ....
those weak and personal attacks in their posts are going to hold even a drop of water against the Republican military juggernaut, they're even bigger fools than they show off to be here. Obama will be slaughtered by McCain on this issue alone.


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. how lame is it, not to know fact from opinion.
even small children should know the difference. I shake my head at DUers who are so confused that they don't know the difference. Your statement is a classic example of opinion with nary a fact in it. Do try and educate yourself. Perhaps then you could engage in reasonable debate.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Why don't you try discussing how Obama got the info to say 'he knew'
I would truly love to see how Obama knew.

"knew" - - like he say classified documents? "knew' - - like he performed an analysis on the WMD Inspectors analysis?

How did he know???????


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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Common bloody fucking sense....
is how he knew. Just like most of us who were against this war from the beginning KNEW.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. There was plenty of evidence out there
in the public domain. Conflicting intelligence reports. Intelligence experts speaking out, etc. That's how I knew it was utter horse shit. It didn't take much research or perspicacity to find that out. How sad you weren't up to it. How multiple times sad that Hillary, warned by far wiser and more experienced colleagues such as Pat Leahy, was so neglectful of her duty.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. And how did Pat Leahy vote on theWMD Levin ammendment?
The Levin amendment To authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces, pursuant to a new resolution of the United Nations Security Council, to destroy, remove, or render harmless Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons-usable material, long-range ballistic missiles, and related facilities, and for other purposes.

YEAs ---24
Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND) Corzine (D-NJ) Dayton (D-MN) Durbin (D-IL) Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT) Kennedy (D-MA) Kohl (D-WI)
Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Mikulski (D-MD) Reed (D-RI) Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sarbanes (D-MD) Stabenow (D-MI) Wellstone (D-MN) Wyden (D-OR)



http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00235

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Sorry, you need to inform yourself better
that has nothing to do with his vote on IWR. Go read his speech where he made it crystal clear that he'd NEVER vote for a blank check for war for ANY president, dem or repuke. And he repeatedly used those words. He compared the IWR to the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. He predicted that war was inevitable if they passed it and he predicted the massive loss of life and the disasterous occupation. The speech is on his website. Enlighten yourself.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. It was an amendment to the IWR. Had it past it would have been a part of it.
Enlighten yourself. What on earth do you think Lehey beleved when he voted YEA to add this to the IWR authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces, pursuant to a new resolution of the United Nations Security Council, to destroy, remove, or render harmless Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, nuclear weapons-usable material, long-range ballistic missiles, and related facilities, and for other purposes.


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Sorry, you really need a course in logic
And you really need to read this before you continue spouting off on something you know so little about.

Mr. President. On September 26, I spoke at length in this Chamber about the important issue before us. I voiced my concerns and the concerns of a great many Vermonters--in fact, a great many Americans from whom I have heard. I spoke about the President's plan to send Americans into battle to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

Many Senators have also expressed their views on this difficult decision. As I prepared to speak 2 weeks ago, I listened to Senator Bingaman urge the administration to seriously consider a proposal for ``coerced inspections.'' After I finished speaking, Senator Johnson voiced his support for providing the President with the broad authority he seeks to use military force against Iraq.

The opportunity and responsibility to have this debate is one of the cornerstones on which this institution, and indeed this country is built. Some have suggested that expressing misgivings or asking questions about the President's plan to attack Iraq is somehow unpatriotic. Others have tried to make it an election year issue on bumper stickers or in TV advertisements.

These attempts are misguided. They are beneath the people who make these attempts and they are beneath the issue. This is an issue of war. An issue of war should be openly debated. That is a great freedom of this Nation. We fought a revolution to have such debates.

As I and others have said over and over, declaring war is the single most important responsibility given to Congress. Unfortunately, at times like this, it is a responsibility Congress has often shirked. Too often, Congress has abdicated its responsibility and deferred to the executive branch on such matters. It should not. It should pause and read the Constitution.

In the Senate, we have a duty to the Constitution, to our consciences, and to the American people, especially our men and women in uniform, to ask questions, to discuss the benefits, the risks, the costs, to have a thorough debate and then vote to declare war or not. This body, the Senate, is supposed to be the conscience of the Nation. We should fulfill this great responsibility.

In my 28 years in the Senate, I can think of many instances when we asked questions and took the time to study the facts. It led to significant improvements in what we have done here.

I can also remember times when Senators in both parties wished they had taken more time to carefully consider the issues before them, to ask the hard questions, or make changes to the legislation, despite the sometimes overwhelming public pressure to pass the first bill that came along.

I know following the Constitution is not always politically expedient or popular. The Constitution was not designed to be politically expedient, but following the Constitution is the right course to take. It is what we are sworn to do, and there is no question that having this debate, which really began some months ago, has helped move the administration in the right direction.

Today, we are considering a resolution offered by Senator Lieberman to authorize the use of force. Article I of the Constitution gives the Congress the sole power to declare war. But instead of exercising this responsibility and voting up or down on a declaration of war, what have we done? We have chosen to delegate this authority and this burden to the executive branch.

This resolution, like others before it, does not declare anything. It tells the President: Why don't you decide; we are not going to.

This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long. This Vermonter does not sign blank checks.

Mr. President, I suppose this resolution is something of an improvement. Back in August the President's advisors insisted that there was not even any need for authorization from Congress to go to war. They said past resolutions sufficed.

Others in the administration argued that the United States should attack Iraq preemptively and unilaterally, without bothering to seek the support of the United Nations, even though it is Iraq's violations of U.N. resolutions which is used to justify military action.

Eventually, the President listened to those who urged him to change course and he went to the United Nations. He has since come to the Congress. I commended President Bush for doing that.

I fully support the efforts of Secretary Powell to negotiate a strong, new Security Council resolution for the return of weapons inspectors to Iraq, backed up with force, if necessary, to overcome Iraqi resistance.

Two weeks ago, when the President sent Congress his proposed resolution authorizing the use of force, I said that I hoped his proposal was the beginning of a consultative, bipartisan process to produce a sensible resolution to be acted on at the appropriate time.

I also said that I could envision circumstances which would cause me to support sending U.S. Armed Forces to Iraq. But I also made it clear that I could never support the kind of blank check resolution that the President proposed. I was not elected to do that.

I commend Senator DASCHLE, Senator HAGEL, and others who tried hard to work with the administration to craft a bipartisan resolution that we could all support.

But while the resolution that we are considering today is an improvement from the version that the President first sent to Congress, it is fundamentally the same. It is still a blank check. I will vote against this resolution for all the reasons I have stated before and the reasons I will explain in detail now.

Mr. President, there is no dispute that Saddam Hussein is a menace to his people and to Iraq's neighbors. He is a tyrant and the world would be far better without him.

Saddam Hussein has also made no secret of his hatred of the United States, and should he acquire a nuclear weapon and the means to deliver it, he would pose a grave threat to the lives of all Americans, as well as to our closest allies.

The question is not whether Saddam Hussein should be disarmed; it is how imminent is this threat and how should we deal with it?

Do we go it alone, as some in the administration are eager to do because they see Iraq as their first opportunity to apply the President's strategy of preemptive military force?

Do we do that, potentially jeopardizing the support of those nations we need to combat terrorism and further antagonizing Muslim populations who already deeply resent our policies in the Middle East?

Or, do we work with other nations to disarm Saddam, using force if other options fail?

The resolution now before the Senate leaves the door open to act alone, even absent an imminent threat. It surrenders to the President authority which the Constitution explicitly reserves for the Congress.

And as I said 2 weeks ago, it is premature.

I have never believed, nor do I think that any Senator believes, that U.S. foreign policy should be hostage to any nation, nor to the United Nations. Ultimately, we must do what we believe is right and necessary to protect our security, whenever it is called for. But going to war alone is rarely the answer.

On Monday night, the President spoke about working with the United Nations. He said:

"To actually work, any new inspections, sanctions, or enforcement mechanisms will have to be very different. America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. That is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements."

I could not agree more. The President is right. The status quo is unacceptable.

Past U.N. resolutions have not worked. Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials have lied to the world over and over and over. As the President points out, an effort is underway in the U.N. Security Council--led by the United States--to adopt a strong resolution requiring unconditional, unimpeded access for U.N. weapons inspectors, backed up with force if necessary.

That effort is making steady progress. There is wide acceptance that a new resolution is necessary before the inspectors can return to Iraq, and this has put pressure on the other nations, especially Russia and France, to support our position.

If successful, it could achieve the goal of disarming Saddam without putting thousands of American and innocent Iraqi lives at risk or spending tens of billions, or hundreds of billions, of dollars at a time when the U.S. economy is weakening, the Federal deficit is growing, and the retirement savings of America's senior citizens have been decimated.

Diplomacy is often tedious. It does not usually make the headlines or the evening news. We certainly know about past diplomatic failures. But history has shown over and over that diplomatic pressure cannot only protect our national interests, it can also enhance the effectiveness of military force when force becomes necessary.

The negotiations are at a sensitive stage. By authorizing the use of force today, the Congress will be saying that irrespective of what the Security Council does, we have already decided to go our own way.

As Chairman and sometimes Ranking Member of the Foreign Operations Subcommittee for over a decade, I have received countless letters from Secretaries of State--from both Democratic and Republican Administrations--urging Congress not to adopt legislation because it would upset ongoing negotiations. Why is this different?

Some say the President's hand will be strengthened by Congress passing this resolution. In 1990, when the United States successfully assembled a broad coalition to fight the gulf war, the Congress passed a resolution only after the UN had acted. The world already knows that President Bush is serious about using force against Iraq, and the votes are there in Congress to declare war if diplomatic efforts fail and war becomes unavoidable.

More importantly, the resolution now before the Senate goes well beyond what the President said on Monday about working through the United Nations. It would permit the administration to take precipitous, unilateral action without following through at the U.N.

Many respected and knowledgeable people--former senior military officers and diplomats among them--have expressed strong reservations about this resolution. They agree that if there is credible evidence that Saddam Hussein is planning to use weapons of mass destruction against the United States or one of our allies, the American people and the Congress would overwhelmingly support the use of American military power to stop him. But they have not seen that evidence, and neither have I.

We have heard a lot of bellicose rhetoric, but what are the facts? I am not asking for 100 percent proof, but the administration is asking Congress to make a decision to go to war based on conflicting statements, angry assertions, and assumption based on speculation. This is not the way a great nation goes to war.

The administration has also been vague, evasive and contradictory about its plans. Speaking here in Washington, the President and his advisors continue to say this issue is about disarming Saddam Hussein; that he has made no decision to use force.

But the President paints a different picture when he is on the campaign trail, where he often talks about regime change. The Vice President said on national television that ``The President's made it clear that the goal of the United States is regime change. He said that on many occasions.''

Proponents of this resolution argue that it does put diplomacy first. They point to section 4, which requires the President to determine that further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone will not adequately protect the national security, before he resorts to military force. They say that this ensures that we will act only in a deliberative way, in concert with our allies.

But they fail to point out that the resolution permits the President to use unilateral military force if he determines that reliance on diplomacy alone “..... is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq .....''

Unfortunately, we have learned that ``not likely'' is a wide open phrase that can be used to justify just about anything. So let us not pretend we are doing something we are not. This resolution permits the President to take whatever military action he wants, whenever he wants, for as long as he wants. It is a blank check.

We have the best trained, best equipped Armed Forces in the world, and I know they can defeat Iraq. I hope, as we all do, that if force is used the Iraqi military surrenders quickly.

But if we have learned anything from history, it is that wars are unpredictable. They can trigger consequences that none of us would intend or expect. Is it fair to the American people, who have become accustomed to wars waged from 30,000 feet lasting a few weeks with few casualties, that we not discuss what else could happen? We could be involved in urban warfare where large numbers of our troops are killed.

And what of the critical issue of rebuilding a post-Saddam Iraq, about which the Administration has said virtually nothing? It is one thing to topple a regime, but it is equally important, and sometimes far more difficult, to rebuild a country to prevent it from becoming engulfed by factional fighting.

If these nations cannot successfully rebuild, then they will once again become havens for terrorists. To ensure that does not happen, do we foresee basing thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq after the war, and if so, for how many years? How many billions of dollars will we spend?

Are the American people prepared to spend what it will take to rebuild Iraq even when the administration is not budgeting the money that is needed to rebuild Afghanistan, having promised to do so? Do we spend hundreds of billions in Iraq, as the President's Economic Adviser suggested, while not providing at home for homeland defense, drought aid for farmers, education for our young people, and other domestic priorities?

Who is going to replace Saddam Hussein? The leading coalition of opposition groups, the Iraqi National Congress, is divided, has questionable support among the Iraqi people, and has made little headway in overthrowing Saddam. While Iraq has a strong civil society, in the chaos of a post-Saddam Iraq another dictator could rise to the top or the country could splinter along ethnic or religious lines.

These are the questions the American people are asking and these are the issues we should be debating. They are difficult issues of war and peace, but the administration, and the proponents of this resolution, would rather leave them for another day. They say: vote now! and let the President decide. Don't give the U.N. time to do its job. Don't worry that the resolution is a blank check.

I can count the votes. The Senate will pass this resolution. They will give the President the authority he needs to send United States troops to Iraq. But before the President takes that step, I hope he will consider the questions that have been asked. I hope he considers the concerns raised by former generals, senior diplomats, and intelligence officials in testimony before Congress. I hope he listens to concerns raised privately by some of our military officers. Above all, I hope he will listen to the American people who are urging him to proceed cautiously and not to act alone.

Notwithstanding whatever disagreements there may be on our policy toward Iraq, if a decision is made to send troops into battle, there is no question that every Member of Congress will unite behind our President and our Armed Forces.

But that time has not yet come. Based on what I know today, I believe in order to solve this problem without potentially creating more terrorists and more enemies, we have to act deliberately and not precipitously. The way the United States responds to the threat posed by Iraq is going to have consequences for our country and for the world for years to come.

Authorizing a U.S. attack to overthrow another government while negotiations at the United Nations are ongoing, and before we exhaust other options, could damage our standing in the world as a country that recognizes the importance of international solutions. I am afraid that it would be what the world expects of a superpower that seems increasing disdainful of international opinion or cooperation and collective diplomacy, a superpower that seems more and more inclined to ``go it alone.''

What a dramatic shift from a year ago, when the world was united in its expressions of sympathy toward the United States. A year ago, the world would have welcomed the opportunity to work with us on a wide agenda of common problems.

I remember the emotion I felt when I saw ``The Star Spangled Banner'' sung by crowds of people outside Buckingham Palace in London. The leading French newspaper, Le Monde, declared, ``We are all Americans.'' China's Jiang Zemin was one of the first world leaders to call Washington and express sympathy after September 11.

Why squander the goodwill we had in the world? Why squander this unity? If September 11 taught us anything, it is that protecting our security involves much more than military might. It involves cooperation with other nations to break up terrorist rings, dry up the sources of funding, and address the conditions of ignorance and despair that create breeding grounds for terrorists. We are far more likely to achieve these goals by working with other nations than by going it alone.

I am optimistic that the Administration's efforts at the U.N. will succeed and that the Security Council will adopt a strong resolution. If Saddam Hussein refuses to comply, then force may be justified, and it may be required.

But we are a great nation, with a wide range of resources available to us and with the goodwill of most of the world. Let us proceed deliberately, moving as close to our goal as we can by working with our allies and the United Nations, rather than writing a blank check that is premature, and which would continue the trend of abdicating our constitutional authority and our responsibility.

Mr. President, that trend started many years ago, and I have gone back and read some of the speeches the Senators have made. For example, and I quote:

“The resolution now pending is an expression of American unity in this time of crisis.”

“It is a vote of confidence . . . but is not a blank check for policies that might in the future be carried on by the executive branch of the Government . . . without full consultation by the Congress.”

Do these speeches sound familiar? They were not about Iraq. They were spoken 38 years ago when I was still a prosecutor in Vermont. At the end of that debate, after statements were made that this resolution is not a blank check, and that Congress will always watch what the Executive Branch is doing, the Senate voted on that resolution. Do you know what the vote was? 88 to 2. It passed overwhelmingly.

In case everyone does not know what resolution I am talking about, I am talking about the Tonkin Gulf resolution. As we know all too well, the Tonkin Gulf resolution was used by both the Johnson and Nixon administrations as carte blanche to wage war on Vietnam, ultimately involving more than half a million American troops, resulting in the deaths of more than 58,000 Americans. Yet, even the Tonkin Gulf resolution, unlike the one that we are debating today, had a sunset provision.

When I came to the Senate, there were a lot of Senators, both Republicans and Democrats, who had voted for the Tonkin Gulf resolution. Every single Senator who ever discussed it with me said what a mistake it was to write that kind of blank check on the assurance that we would continue to watch what went on.

I am not suggesting the administration is trying to mislead the Congress about the situation in Iraq, as Congress was misled on the Tonkin Gulf resolution. I am not comparing a possible war in Iraq to the Vietnam war. They are very different countries, with different histories, and with different military capabilities. But the key words in the resolution we are considering today are remarkably similar to the infamous resolution of 38 years ago which so many Senators and so many millions of Americans came to regret.

Let us not make that mistake again. Let us not pass a Tonkin Gulf resolution. Let us not set the history of our great country this way. Let us not make the mistake we made once before.

I yield the floor.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Not more words? Votes are actions, not words.
Please.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Both words and actions count and
duh he voted AGAINST the IWR. You seem to have a problem with that basic fact. It's quite simple for most people. Oh, well, so you don't get something this important. It's sad but there you go.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. That Amendment gave more oversight to the UN...
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 09:53 AM by ingac70
instead of leaving it in the hands of Dubya, no new resolution from the UN, no war. Hillary was bloodthirsty and voted against it.... In case you didn't notice, virtually all those peoples names on that vote against the final resolution... BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T TRUST BUSH like Hillary did.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. It specified the use of force.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Only with UN approval.
No blank check for Dubya like Hillary wanted... sad the Levin Amendment didn't pass... the UN never would have approved a resolution to invade without concrete proof of WMD.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. but, Leahy voted against the use of
force in the main legislation and would have voted against it under any circumstances. You have a problem with the reality of the actual IWR vote.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
68. Maybe he listened to Scott Ritter?
I know I listened to Scott Ritter, among others.

Perhaps he heard or read something by Anthony Zinni. I know I did.

Maybe he listened to Wes Clark's testimony before Congress?
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
31. What fact do you have?
A barely three year junior Senator? Oh wait I forgot, he was also a "community organizer." The OP points out conflicting holes in Barack Obama's statements -- a valid critique. But you have faith in someone inexperienced for the job -- it is you who grasps at the intangible.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
60. I'm talking about Hill's vote
and Pat Leahy's advice which she scorned. I think both Hillary and Obama would make decent presidents. I firmly believe she voted for the IWR out of political expedience, and although I deplore it, it's not something I find incomprehensible. It's all too human. There really aren't any conflicts in Obama's statements. It's hardly a valid critique. And though he doesn't have as much experience as Clinton, he's not far behind her in that regard. She has 4 more years in the Senate. He has 8 years in the Illinois State Senate and that gives him quite a bit of experience on domestic issues. She's older than he is. But he's spent more time on the ground dealing with issues of poverty and voter rights. Some of her First Lady experience is valid, but certainly not all of it. None of her corporate legal work which consumed most of her professional career is pertinant. You folks are so pitifully desperate it's reached the point of absurdity.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. wow, that's just.... stunning. in its inanity.
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 08:55 AM by enki23
high marks for effort, but the actual content is some of the most insanely stretched, garbled lunacy i've yet seen here. gotta give it a D+, purely on its stylistic merits. by the way, "show" is very commonly used as a synonym for "prove". and the idea that using an common phrase like "fan the flames" constitutes plagarism is the icing on this whole goddamned farcical cake.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Cannot refute the facts, I see.

But thanks for going through all that trouble to grade my stylistic merits, showing off the levels to which you Obmama supporters will stoop to avoid discussing the turth.

Freakin stylistic merits??? You've got to be kidding me.

Hurts you, I see.


:rofl:
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
80. facts?
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 04:03 PM by enki23
didn't see any "facts" to dispute.

for the record. i'm not a "supporter" of anyone. i didn't vote in the primaries, and i didn't donate to anybody. i would prefer obama to win the nomination, but i'm not deluded (at least these days) into believing arguing on the internets actually constitutes "support" for any candidate or cause. so i'm not an *anybody* "supporter," in this particular race. but lame is lame. and your post falls just shy of it.

it's enough to "show" anyone with functioning frontal lobes just how pointless all this bullshit really is.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. It's too late now. The media will not ask any questions and dems will be left holding
the bag of defeat in November.

No ounce of truth about him will come out this primary season. The media has chosen our candidate for us. The plan of Republicans cross voting for the weaker candidate has been succeededing.

If people don't wake up soon. It will be too late.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. OCT. 2nd, 2007....
http://vermontersforobama.org/2007/10/

"But I didn’t see how Saddam Hussein posed an imminent threat. I was convinced that a war would distract us from Afghanistan and the real threat from al Qaeda. I worried that Iraq’s history of sectarian rivalry could leave us bogged down in a bloody conflict. And I believed the war would fan the flames of extremism and lead to new terrorism. So I went to the rally. And I argued against a “rash war” – a “war based not on reason, but on politics” – “an occupation of undetermined length, with undetermined costs, and undetermined consequences.”"- Barack Obama

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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
32.  How was Obama convinced? Or did he just copy others thoughts on length and costs?
You've offered no facts, just more and more words.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. You're original post didn't ask for that....
I am refuting your lies in the OP...

He was convinced because REPUBLICANS ARE KNOWN LIARS.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. That was in thequotes which you just posted.
Sheesh.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. You said he didn't speak on Oct 2,2002. n/t.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. He didn't. He only implied he did with no proof.
No newspaper clippings.

No Chicago newsclips on television.


nothing


zero


ziltch

nada
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. .....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/09/thomas-b-edsall-the-atte_n_59875.html

"On the other hand Obama's October 2, 2002, speech at an anti-war rally in Chicago in which he laid out his case against the war provides a very strong refutation of the case that his opposition to the war did not necessitate leadership and courage."
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #51
64. Liar
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
22. Hmmm, let's look at Hillary's judgement on this matter
She enabled Bushco's illegal, immoral war by voting for the IWR. In doing so, she ignored the wishes of her constituents, and the American people in general, who were emailing, sending, phoning and faxing in millions of messages at the rate of 268:1 against the IWR. Polls were showing that 68% of the American public didn't want to do anything, including the IWR, until the inspectors finished their job. But Hillary ignored all of this, and voted to let slip the dogs of war anyway.

Furthermore, she has continued to support the war, funding it, promoting it, and not admitting her vote was a mistake. Arrogance, nothing but sheer arrogance.

In addition she is now rattling the saber at Iran, signing Kyle/Lieberman, even though the NIE and IAEA have shown that Iran is not a nuclear threat.

She has also stated, repeatedly, that she will keep combat troops, going on combat missions in Iraq for the foreseeable future, perhaps throughout her entire first term(if she is elected).

All of these actions are not only signs of very poor judgment, but are also signs of arrogance and an unwillingness to listen to the people. She voted against the will of the people when she voted for the IWR, and now she is wanting to keep the war going despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of the American people want us out of Iraq ASAP.

You want to talk about judgment, well this is indeed a sign of poor judgment. So poor in fact that Hillary doesn't deserve to get the nomination. Instead, she needs to be held accountable for her actions, which is part of what is going on with this election. What, don't you believe in accountability?
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
23. Uh, he mentioned Al Qaeda. Most of the world recognizes that that means
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 09:11 AM by arewenotdemo
Afghanistan (and Pakistan).

"So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings."

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech
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carlotta Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
33. If the only criterion for being Commander-in-Chief is...
having been against the War...well, then I guess I'm qualified, too.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
34. .....
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 09:36 AM by ingac70
3 October 2002
Chicago Daily Herald
All
8
English
(Copyright 2002)

300 attend rally against Iraq war:

The Rev. Jesse Jackson called on the Bush administration Wednesday to "lead the world, not rule it" at a downtown rally protesting plans for war against Iraq. State Sen. Barak Obama, a Chicago Democrat; the Rev. Paul Rutgers, chairman of the Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago; and former state Sen. Jesus Garcia of Chicago, among others, joined Jackson in urging the federal government to avoid a military strike against Iraq. "While we're looking at Saddam Hussein, we're taking attention away from our economic problems," Jackson said, pointing to the recent stock market plunge and the $2 billion national deficit. Obama, along with several of the speakers, acknowledged the necessity of war in some cases, but only as a last resort. "I don't oppose all war; I oppose dumb war," Obama said. He also said a war in Iraq based on passion and politics would provoke the worst impulses of the Arab world. Police estimated 300 people attended the event.



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Freida5 Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
44. Think about it! He gives one speech at Peace Rally and that qualifies him to be Commander in Chief
It even sounds stupid.
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. Yes, Barack Obama even claims he "got it right" with this criteria
It certainly does sound stupid. If he gets the nomination, the repukes will have a field day.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
67. Qualifications to be President...
http://www.presidentsusa.net/qualifications.html

Age and Citizenship requirements - US Constitution, Article II, Section 1

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.

Term limit amendment - US Constitution, Amendment XXII, Section 1 – ratified February 27, 1951

No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
70. Uh, yeah, when your two opponents made dumbass, finger-to-the-wind
political calls on the same matter. Calls that have well and truly fucked the planet and humanity sans consent or lubrication for generations.

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JAbuchan08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
76. He's got a lot more judgement than George Bush,
or Hillary Clinton. I'm pretty sure that George Bush only gave pro-war speeches, and Hillary was hedging her bets up until the campaign. To be fair, Obama hedged his bets more recently.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
56. October 2, 2002 Anti-War Speech in Federal Plaza
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 10:08 AM by WesDem
Chicago Tribune - Chicago, Ill.
Author: Bill Glauber, Tribune staff reporter
Date: Oct 3, 2002
Section: News
Text Word Count: 1196

Document Text
IN CHICAGO.

They sang “Give Peace a Chance,” waved tasteful “War Is Not An Option” placards and listened dutifully to speeches that echoed in the glass-and-steel canyon that is Federal Plaza Wednesday.

Some in the crowd of about 1,000 came straight off the college campus. Others were veterans of past protests to stop the Vietnam War. There were even a few second-generation activists following in the wake of parents radicalized by Vietnam.

Older and grayer, the 1960s anti-war vets were as passionate as ever to demonstrate against the Bush administration’s preparations for war in Iraq.

Organizers pronounced themselves delighted with the rally’s modest turnout, its content and its civility.

“Well, nobody misbehaves anymore. We’re all too old,” said Don Rose, a longtime social and political activist.

Despite the small turnout, the rally marked the first high- profile public disapproval in Chicago of the Bush administration’s war against terrorism.

The rally wasn’t a replay of the Days of Rage–it was more like a gentle call to arms for a nascent peace movement desperate to head off a new Gulf War. From savvy public relations experts, veteran political activists and religious leaders to a few scruffy anti- global campaigners, a loose coalition took shape in a Chicago square.

Organizers and speakers went to great lengths to emphasize that it’s not all wars they oppose–just the prospect of a rush to war against Iraq.”

Source: Chicago Tribune 10/3/02


3 October 2002
Chicago Daily Herald
(Copyright 2002)

300 attend rally against Iraq war:

The Rev. Jesse Jackson called on the Bush administration Wednesday to “lead the world, not rule it” at a downtown rally protesting plans for war against Iraq. State Sen. Barak Obama, a Chicago Democrat; the Rev. Paul Rutgers, chairman of the Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago; and former state Sen. Jesus Garcia of Chicago, among others, joined Jackson in urging the federal government to avoid a military strike against Iraq. “While we’re looking at Saddam Hussein, we’re taking attention away from our economic problems,” Jackson said, pointing to the recent stock market plunge and the $2 billion national deficit. Obama, along with several of the speakers, acknowledged the necessity of war in some cases, but only as a last resort. “I don’t oppose all war; I oppose dumb war,” Obama said. He also said a war in Iraq based on passion and politics would provoke the worst impulses of the Arab world. Police estimated 300 people attended the event.

Source: Chicago Daily Herald 10/3/02


Publication: Daily Herald (Arlington Heights, IL)
Publication Date: 03-OCT-02 Format: Online
Delivery: Immediate Online Access

Article Excerpt
300 attend rally against Iraq war:

The Rev. Jesse Jackson called on the Bush administration Wednesday to “lead the world, not rule it” at a downtown rally protesting plans for war against Iraq. State Sen. Barak Obama, a Chicago Democrat; the Rev. Paul Rutgers, chairman of the Council…

Source: Goliath



Judgment. Foresight. Leadership.

I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not – we will not – travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #56
66. I've been told...
that Chicago papers aren't good enough. As well as Media Matters.

This person (the OP author) is fucked in the head.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. "the rally’s modest turnout" To see Jessee Jackson? You'd think it would've been a bigger crowd.
And this guy hangs his hat on this tiny event and his timid words to prove he's Presidential?
What a joke.
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Maribelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
77. Wrong. There were speeches in Chicago throughout October. Nowhere can you find ....
something that links the erstwhile part of the speech where Obama says "I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda." said at any rally that occurred before October 26th.



In all your pull quotes, you've failed to do that.

But here is proof that there was a rally October 26, 2002

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/224621801.html?dids=224621801:224621801&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Oct+27%2C+2002&author=Shira+Kantor%2C+Washington+Bureau+Tribune+staff+reporter&pub=Chicago+Tribune&edition=&startpage=8&desc=Thousands+protest+Iraq+war+threat+

Thousands protest Iraq war threat ; Rallies in D.C., Chicago among marches worldwide




Chicago Tribune - Chicago, Ill.
Author: Shira Kantor, Washington Bureau Tribune staff reporter
Date: Oct 27, 2002
Start Page: 8
Section: News
Text Word Count: 1138

Abstract (Document Summary)
Anti-war demonstrators gather Saturday near the White House in a day of protests that drew thousands to Washington. Police said there were no major disruptions. Activists gather in the Loop's Federal Plaza for a two-hour rally Saturday before marching through downtown Chicago to protest administration policies on Iraq.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
61. Looking at who got suckered by Chimpy and who didn't is all you need to know
Your OP is confusing. Your logic and appeasement for Hillary's free pass for Chimpy is the usual for people who wish to avoid that very flaw in judgment that has led to a trillion dollar way with a million dead.

Before you jump on the next "conclusion", Obama voted for the troops and veterans who needed to be protected in harm's way and funded for sustaining injuries when they came back.

Hillary got suckered. Barack didn't.

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
69. Sigh. 10 more days of this shit
Please tell me you'll stop after she loses TX and OH by 30 points. Please?
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
71. Quick - STILL time to change candidates and vote for Hillary! SEND HER MONEY NOW!
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 12:17 PM by jmg257
She alone has shown how "ready" she is, she has shown her vast experience (she was 1st lady for a long time, ya know! look how she shined in...that...1 moment...during the debate - OK, so nevermind about that)

She NEEDS you (well - your $$$ anyway) more then ever! (since she is broke and can't even manage her own campaign finances).

BILL NEEDS you too - he wants to get back in the white house so bad he can taste it! (he has already bought the cigars!)

We MUST slam Obama at every turn - no matter how juevinile or inconsequential, OR WRONG! - damn it, we owe it to her! (She counted on this for SOO long, and I can't stand to see her cry again - and she gets SOO mad)

There is STILL time to turn it all aorund! We only need like 65% of all the voters to agree in the remaining states that matter!
Yes she can! (well - not really but so what?)



psst...Put a fork in her - she's done.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
72. 'Notice he said “said” showed'?
Do you realize you're spouting gibberish? This is sad.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
73. yeah, and i guess knowing as little about it as he does that CiC would be g.w. bush...
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
78. Good job!
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
81. He spoke out against the war when over 70% of the nation favored it,
Has Either Clinton EVER Spoken Out Against Something That Polled Above 70%?


NO
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