If Michigan gets a revote, my support is up for grabs.

[last1standing]

I was an Edwards supporter who didn't bother to vote in the Michigan primary because he wasn't on the ballot. Now that he's out and there's a small chance that Michigan could hold a caucus, I'm completely undecided on who to vote for. Both candidates are obviously "moderates" which really means they swing to the right but both are also obviously better than McCain so I want to vote for one of them. The question is who?

My major problem with Obama is his cozying up to homophobes who have used his rallies as a forum to spew their hatred. While Obama couldn't necessarily know they would do this, he could have come out much more strongly in condemning them. To merely say he doesn't agree with them doesn't cut it in my book.

The problem with Clinton, for me is who's behind her. I remember the days of James Carville, Terry McCauliffe, James Begala, Lanny Davis, Rahm Emmanuel, etc.... Their philosophy of only playing to swing states and constantly running to the right with DOMA, NAFTA, welfare "reform" and a slew of other right wing legislation is not something we need right now. We need someone who will move this country forward, not back, and Clinton's team has a proven record of not doing it.

You see, thanks to the wonderful partisan hacks at DU I know all the negative things about each of these candidates, unfortunately, I haven't heard much that I can really support about either of them other than they're not repubs. Can anyone tell me what makes them support their candidate other than the fact the other one is Satan incarnate?




Edited to correct spelling.

[tabatha]

1. Do you listen to his speeches?

He talks against homophobia.

[last1standing]

2. I never said he didn't, but I do think actions speak louder than words.

What has he done to stop homophobia? That's something I could back.

[XemaSab]

7. He used to be a civil rights attorney

and he sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate adding sexual orientation to the list of things you can't discriminate against.

He and Clinton filled out their Human Rights Campaign questionaire similarly.

http://a4.g.akamai.net/f/4/19675/0/newmill.download.akamai.com/19677/anon.newmediamill/pdfs/obama.pdf

[last1standing]

14. Thanks. Your's is the only post that actually says something good about a candidate...

Without smearing the other. I appreciate you showing me this. It does help.

[redstate_democrat]

47. Yup

He did sponsor legislationin Illinois to add sexual orientation for non-discrimination laws. The FEDERAL government doesn't even have sexual orientation added into the Civil Rights Act, even though it was amended in 1991 and should by NOW have that class added. It is a shame, but Obama said he would support adding sexual orientation to FEDERAL non discrimination laws. He is PRO LGBT ALL THE WAY!

[mkultra]

9. well, i dont know

I believe Obama supports GLBT issues but i dont know of anything hes done in the senate to support tht topic. On a side note what has Clinton done in the senate to suppor it?

[Unsane]

11. Speaking out against it?

Bill Clinton, FWIW, made homophobia official government policy with DADT.

[sandnsea]

3. Any time Hillary really steps in it

Out comes Donny McCLurkin and the homophobia charges.

[last1standing]

5. Talk about blinders.... Did you not get past that part and read what I said about Clinton?

n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. OMG! You noticed it too?

It's so obvious, isn't it?

[last1standing]

23. So you don't have anything to say in support of your candidate?

I'm honestly keeping an open mind, but so far I haven't heard a single thing in support of Clinton, only Obama (along with a healthy dollop of smears against Clinton). I've researched the candidates, which is why I supported Edwards, but find very little to differentiate the two remaining other than what I've posted above. I'd really like to know why people here are actively supporting their candidate.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. If you've researched, then why the fuck do you need our input?

The answer is you don't. You used your OP as an excuse to dredge up some Obama bashing.

[last1standing]

28. Well, you've just hit my ignore list.

I just hope you're able to give up the hate once the primaries are over. Somehow I doubt it. :(

[PassingFair]

4. He was (and continues to be) attacked by the right as being a Muslim.

I cut him a LOT of slack on the religious campaigning because
he has had to overcome that misconception.

I say this as a Michigan atheist who did not have Obama as a first choice either.

[last1standing]

6. But that doesn't say anything "good" about Obama, just that there are racists out there.

And that he's willing to humor them at the expense of gay people. I can't see that as a reason to support him.

[PassingFair]

16. He can't change the bible.

Last time I looked, Hillary went to church, too.

I don't see her denouncing Christianity either.

What do you want, a bribe?

Vote your conscience.

[last1standing]

17. No need to get offensive, man.

I asked for something good about the candidates. Obviously, you couldn't think of anything so you got snide. I'm very sorry for you.

[PassingFair]

29. It is pretty obvious that you...

support Hillary anyway.

Your "vote" is not really up for grabs.

IF there is a "re-do" caucus here in Michigan, Hillary
will be SLAUGHTERED with or without your vote.

Both candidates would NEVER amend the constitution
to outlaw civil unions.

Your choice in November will be between a Republican
and a Democrat.

Don't feel sorry for me.

I'll be fine.

:hi:

[last1standing]

32. Wow, do you have that wrong.

If anything I'm being swayed more towards Obama right now than anything else, but if you need to think I'm bashing him, I can't stop you. :shrug:

[mkultra]

20. well, in truth

My sense is that he doesnt actively take up the banner of GLBT. People seem to thin hillary does but she doesnt seem to ever say that she supports Gay marriage. From listening to them both i get the sense that she supports gays more directly than Obama. To me, thats not a big deal as im not much of a associative voter and im not Gay. Obama does talk about ending discrimination and injustice and he has directly stated that the Gay and lesbian community have been victims of this problem.

So i guess he seems to me to be more equality centric while hillary seems more gay centric.


DOes that make sense to anyone but me?

[mkultra]

8. Obama

Obama supports GLBT issues and has plegded to reinsert them into the anti descrimintaion policies of the White house and all federal agencies. He also support Civil union.

Obama has pledged and never has taken a dime from lobbyist or cooporations. Clinton has taken more than any republican.

Hillary lies. She signed a doc pledged to support the unseating of delegates in FL and MI and now that she could benifit from it she wants them seated.

[Johnny__Motown]

12. I voted Uncommitted, at 7:36am in 4 in. of new snow that had not been plowed yet

I was 3rd in my district to vote ( at that point there was at least a 20% Uncommitted vote there ) and I was highly motivated to do any little thing I possibly could to spite her (I knew Hillary would try to cheat).


I would love a chance to caucus for my man Barack. I told my boss in Dec. of '06 that my dream ticket was Obama/Richardson. I also told him more recently that I would need to take the afternoon off if there was a caucus.


Sign me up, raise my taxes to pay for it. I don't freaking care.

[last1standing]

15. You voted out of spite?

That really doesn't say much about your candidate, does it? Wasn't there anything good about Obama that you felt you could vote "for"?

[Johnny__Motown]

26. I have disliked the Clintons longer than I have supported Obama, and Obama was not on the ballot

Yes

I knew she was trying to cheat. This is clearly an attempt to distort MY say in our nominee. I voted to water down that distortion, I consider this spiteful. Yes I voted Uncommitted to spite her.

Perhaps you define that word differently.


Also could you please list two distinctly different definitions of the word "is"? Thanks.

[last1standing]

30. I'm not trying to attack, I'm just trying to find a reason I should support a candidate.

Instead of just voting against one. I think I've been very clear on that from the beginning. Sorry if I wasn't.

[Johnny__Motown]

37. OK, my bad, didn't mean to over react

It sounded like you were disapproving of my "spite" toward a candidate I assumed was trying to use my state as a way to cheat.

If you want a reason to support Obama then just look at how well he has run his campaign while Clinton has run a terrible campaign.

There is clearly also a trust issue here.

My last point would be that she clearly does not care what damage she does to this party. Her recent tactics should not be validated by increased support.

Just my opinion, for whatever it is worth.

[mkultra]

13. Homophobes

Yeah, he let one introduce him once, and never has again.

He has a wide base of support and sometimes people within his base conflict.

I personally am very spiritual but i support gay marriage as i dont consider it my problem.

I do however stand against abortion which is a big rub between me and alot of my friends.

[XemaSab]

18. Obama inspires me

Especially watching him during the debate the other night, I feel like he can work outside the box and get past some of the problems we've had as a country, both here and abroad. For example, I know he didn't say he wanted to normalize relations with Cuba, but opening travel to relatives of Cubans and meeting with Cuba's leaders is a terrific first step.

Another issue I think we can make real progress on is racism. The other night I was chillin' with my (white) friends and they were saying they never thought they'd vote for a black man, and now they look at black people differently. I'm not saying he can fix it, but we can move forward on that. I think sending him abroad as the face of America will say to the world that we have really changed our ways after the last 8 years, and it's not a war on Islam or on black people or any other group. The other thing I'm going to say about his race is that it feels like we've had the same group of people running the country for way too long, and he's not a part of that.

I liked the fact that he told the interviewers exactly what he was thinking. He defused the plagiarism thing, and when they asked him about the earmarks, he said "That's not true." I think he's going to tell us what we need to hear as a country, even if it's not popular.

I went and looked up his earmarks, and a lot of them are for museums, the arts, and parks. God forbid we should have a president committed to the arts. Especially after W.

He's a fresh face with fresh ideas, and I really want to give him the chance to show us what he can do.

[maximusveritas]

19. Here are some differences

Obama has pledged to fully repeal DOMA, as Edwards did.
Clinton has not made that pledge, sayiing she will only repeal part of DOMA.

Obama is not as good as Edwards on trade, but he's much closer to his position. David Sirota, a major labor advocate and Edwards supporter, is now supporting Obama. Here's one of his articles explaining how Obama has returned that issue to the campaign:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/obama-finally-putting-a_b_86346.html

If you look at Obama's record both in Illinois and Washington, he's been a longtime advocate of progressive legislation and values. He's explicitly rejected the centrism of the DLC that tries to find some false middle ground between the left and right. He wants to bring Republicans and Independents over to our side to help implement progressive legislation that our country desperately needs. He has had to moderate his rhetoric now that he's running in the Presidential election, but I know that he's a progressive at heart. It's similar to the way Edwards had to become more moderate when representing a red state like North Carolina, but he's always been a progressive in his gut.

There are a bunch of other reasons, but that's a good start.

[last1standing]

21. There have been a couple of really good posts supporting Obama so far.

But none supporting Clinton. She has a ton of supporters on the forum, can't anyone give me a positive reason to support her instead of just voting against Obama?

[Orsino]

22. He and Clinton both oppose same-sex marriage.

The homophobes have had their way with both of them.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. Look at what Hillary has done for children and women....

for the 9/11 workers. Throughout her whole life she has made health care a priority and one of the greatest challenges this nation faces right now is economic crisis....health care being a major part of that crisis.

I personally am not swayed by pretty words and feel good speeches...I want to see the U.S. put back on strong economic ground and I think Hillary is the person to achieve that.

[last1standing]

31. Thanks.. I'm glad someone has actually said something supportive of her.

I don't necessarily agree that she's better than Obama on the economy but I could see how one could vote for her on children's and women's issues.

[LadyVT]

40. Women's issues:

(originally posted by PHansen):

“Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice”
SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

Hillary Clinton has also been a prominant international leader speaking out against Violence Against Women world wide:
“Hillary Clinton traveled to 79 countries during this time, breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon. In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself, declaring "that it is no longer acceptable to discuss women's rights as separate from human rights" and resisting Chinese pressure to soften her remarks. She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<149><150> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.”
SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

She has also spoken out strongly against mutilation of Muslim girls. I understand around 95% of young Muslim girls in Africa are mutilated, the equivalent of male castration, and without pain killers.

BILLS HILLARY HAS SPONSORED JUST IN THE LAST YEAR TO HELP WOMEN:
SOURCE: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?id=300022&ta...

S. 1240: Compassionate Assistance for Rape Emergencies Act of 2007
S. 2415: Protection Against Transmission of HIV for Women and Youth Act of 2007
S. 1816: National Women's Rights History Project Act
S. 1800: Compassionate Care for Servicewomen Act
S. 1075: Unintended Pregnancy Reduction Act of 2007
S. 766: Paycheck Fairness Act

If you look at the same very record in the last year for Obama, you will find no bills to help women.
SEE: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?tab=bills&id...

If you study more about Hillary Clinton’s background, you will also notice that throughout the last 35 years she has been a strong advocate for protecting not just women but children, the sick, and even animal protection groups give her excellent ratings. Children, animals and often sick people are not able to vote. These facts indicate to me a lot about her true character: a highly compassionate person who cares about the vulnerable being abused."

This may not be important to everyone, but it is very important to me.

[last1standing]

46. Great points. They should be important to all of us.

You've given me something to look into. Thank you.

[machiado]

27. compare voting records

Here is a comparison by someone in your position, trying to decide between Obama and Clinton

http://www.rumorsdaily.com/2008/01/21/troeltsch-examines-clinton-vs-obama-on-voting-record-differences/

[last1standing]

33. Not a whole lot of difference between them, is there?

I have to wonder what makes people so aggressive in their hatred of the opposing candidate and their supporters when I see what you just posted. Thanks.

[LadyVT]

41. They have BOTH voted 95% of the time with the "old" Democratic guard

[fiorello]

34. My long list for Obama... and a short list for Clinton

I'm an Obamite but I see good things about Hillary - since you asked for a Hillary list I am providing some. Reflecting my long decision process!

For Obama.

1. Foreign policy. Obama has assembled advisors who (i) were experienced in the Bill Clinton administration; but (ii) were smart enough to oppose the Iraq war from the beginning. Including some innovative thinkers (e.g. the author of "A problem from hell" about genocide.) Plus, Obama's statements about foreign policy were good and thoughtful. He's clearly the best on foreign policy - better than Edwards, I would say.

(There was a big article on this in The Nation - I can't find the link right now.)

2. Progressive history - Chicago community organizer, strong progressive voting record - see this link just published here.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

3. Outreach to voters. Not just the wild enthusiastic crowds - Obama went to talk to evangelical Christians; not to apologize or take back his liberal positions, but to convince them that evangelicals can support a progressive agenda. I've been waiting for years for a candidate to do that!

Obama has the potential to be someone really special.

Bottom line - I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he really is an economic progressive.

For Hillary.

1. The boring details: How many times I've heard Hillary mention a minor issue, beneath most people's radar, and get it just right. For example; the Bush war on science.

2. Progressive economic policy - borrowed from Edwards, but it's there: the health care plan, the economic stimulus, home mortgages. Obama has them too, but Paul Krugman is correct that Obama's plans are tilted slightly to the right. Plus, Hillary has agressively defended government intervention to help people - it is time someone challenged the Republican nonsense that 'government is the process' (meaning, let bridges collapse, New Orleans drown and poor people rot). Hillary will do that for sure. Obama? Well, I hope so.

(I was never a Hillary supporter because I think that 2 terms in the White House is enough - there must be a very strong reason to bring her back to support Hillary. But I wondered if she wasn't the best, back in November/December. Just before she went negative and brought back Bill.)

[last1standing]

35. I wish I could recommend your post.

Thank you for giving me some real info to think about. You and a couple of other people definitely have me leaning towards Obama, but your comment about Clinton's economic policies are very persuasive as well.

[cooolandrew]

36. Grovel grovel beg beg. I've got a very nice cult robe you can have. =)

[last1standing]

39. What?

I can't even begin to guess at what you're trying to say. Can you possibly restate your post?

[jab105]

38. I'm in FL...I just switched parties - from Independent to Democrat...

just in case we have a caucus...
If we do, both my husband and I will vote for Obama...I think he is the right person for the times that we live in...

I didn't bother changing registration before the FL vote because I knew that we didn't count...

Though, I really hope that it wont come down to FL caucus redo...

[Johnny__Motown]

42. Exactly, you knew it would not count. Now Hillary wants to count it. were you disenfranchised?

I would say yes. Just My Opinion

[last1standing]

43. To be honest a part of me does want MI and FL to decide this.

In Michigan we've been ignored by both the white house and congress for way too long as our economy languishes in the toilet. We need some national attention no matter how we get it at this point. For some reason the fact that our unemployment has been the highest in the country for years doesn't seem to have bothered anyone on a national level. Our tax base and our smartest residents are leaving by the truckful and we need help to get back on our feet. Instead of help, we're still paying more in federal taxes than we're bringing in. Alaskan residents receive a stipend for living in a state with high unemployment, while in this state we pay a premium for the privilege. I'd like that to come up in a debate or two as I've heard absolutely nothing about it so far and I'm sick of us being ignored while in our death throws.

*ahem* I do get a bit excited when I talk about this. :)

[cooolandrew]

44. The campaign represent how they would govern, Barack appears to have checks and balances. Also...

...He has this woman on his team who would make an outstanding VP...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyn35HL0eng

[cooolandrew]

45. The campaign represent how they would govern, Barack appears to have checks and balances. Also...

...He has this woman on his team who would make an outstanding VP...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyn35HL0eng

[last1standing]

48. Thanks to everyone who added something constuctive to this thread.

I wish there were more people at DU who felt they could say something positive about their own candidate instead of just trying to trash the other, but I'm glad there are a few here who remember what it means to stand FOR something still. I think there are too many here who think they're part of a campaign's spin machine perhaps.

Anyways, thanks. :hi: