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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:09 PM
Original message
Dancing boys: Gender bias in this election?
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 05:22 PM by LadyVT
Three things first: I am a Democrat, and I voted for Hillary. I would also vote for Gore or for Edwards. This is not a post about why anyone should vote for anyone. This is for those who cannot understand why many of us react so strongly to the election.

After the debate, my husband and I sat on the couch together, and I tried to explain to him why I was so involved in this race. One of the primary reasons I voted for Hillary was that her record working for abused and neglected kids, and on women’s issues, is perhaps the strongest of any living person in this country. That’s not everyone’s priority, and it doesn’t need to be, but this has also been my life’s work, so it is one of mine, and it's an issue that cuts to the core for me.

But far beyond the issues that convinced me to vote for Hillary and to turn away from Barack, I realized that there is something very close to the bone that’s being hacked at in me, and perhaps in many of us. It explains the very deep pain I feel (regardless of who wins the nomination) about how the campaign is being portrayed. I explained it to my husband this way, and he urged me to post about it:

Imagine you live in a world in which nearly all the leaders of the country are women, and always have been women. Women Presidents, vice-Presidents, and until 4 years ago (when men were appointed for the first time in history), women Secretaries of State and Speakers of the House. In the entire history of your country, only 33 men have held cabinet level positions in government.
Even now, six out of seven members of Congress are women.

Sit a minute and try to imagine how you would feel if that were the case. Your entire life, the face of power has always been female. The vast majority of all newscasts include video and audio of women talking about what they are going to do to change the country, voting in Congress, travelling around the world, making news, and so on. All Presidents have been women. Occasionally, there is interest in the President’s spouse, and specials come out at the holidays about the first gentleman decorating the White House.

As you grew up, you took this for granted, and never even thought to imagine you could be in politics. Men are nurses, teachers, entertainers. The men on TV you watched as a kid took care of their families and had nurturing jobs. They didn’t run the country!

So you went to school, you began your career, you made 25% less than your wife, and you kept on. You did most of the work around the house, and did most of the childrearing. You were happy to have your family and your life. Eventually, you did get a bit tired of being governed by women. You thought, now and then, about how it would be to have a man in the White House.

Once, about a decade ago, a first gentleman, “Lawrence,” became active in politics. This was astonishing! You and your friends watched closely. You noticed immediately how great it felt just to SEE a man covered by the media who was speaking intelligently and articulately on issues of concern to you and your family and the world. This man was trying to pass a healthcare package, but the women-dominated, right-wing branch of the Republican party came out fighting, sent out a misleading mailer, and the healthcare package did not pass. Lawrence's wife, the President, "Barbara," went back to being the most dominant political figure on television.

Nevertheless, Lawrence continued to travel around the world, speaking out on men’s rights (working to stop penile mutiliation, sexual abuse of boys, and the rape of men during wartime), getting to know world leaders personally, and so on. Occasionally, he would end up on the news, and again, how refreshing it was to see a man on television (even for a few soundbites) who was not a pole dancer, talk show host, or entertainer of some type. It was as if, perhaps, men were gaining some credibility in the world. Perhaps men were going to be heard and equally represented at last.

Afterwards, though, a Republican administration took office amidst allegations of election stealing. During these years, people frequently longed for Barbara’s administration. One of the only positive things to come from these eight long years was that the electorate was so disillusioned and despairing about the state of the government and country that they seemed quite ready to elect a Democrat. By the end, Lawrence had been twice easily elected to the US Senate, we had a male Secretary of State and Speaker of the House for the first time in history, and you began to be hopeful about men’s chances in government again.

Last year, new candidates prepared to run for President. Several women declared their candidacy, only this time, a man joined them: the former first gentleman, Lawrence! You were riveted. How would the electorate respond? Initially, you said, “there is no way this country is ready to elect a man to be President of the United States!” With only 16% of Congress being male, it just didn’t seem likely.

Over the past year, what you’ve seen has shocked even you. Every time you go to CNN.com, you see advertised there a Lawrence doll with his pants down, his genitals streaming beer with just a click of a knob. It costs $19.99 and is called the “First Gentleman’s Beer Piss.” It is listed on an ad sponsored by Google. Also available for sale is a Lawrence toilet brush. (You also see these ads on the few sites where this kind of abominable advertising is criticized!)

Lawrence is accused of “pimping” his son because he campaigns for his father. Cameras zoom in on Lawrence’s groin, and comments are made. The media focus on his hair cut, clothes choice, whether or not he’s had a face lift, what hair gel he uses, how old he looks, instead of his position on the issues. There is little public outcry about most of this.

You’ve heard news commentators make remarks about Lawrence that they could never get away with if they were talking about ethnicity or social class. When he shows emotion, he’s too weak. When he asserts himself strongly to defend himself, he’s called “unhinged," "ranting," "flipping out." When he lists policies, he’s boring and cold. When the female candidates do this, they are brilliant and inspiring, genuine, and strong. This does not surprise you; you’ve been seeing this your entire life, and this has happened to you, as well. Your friend, Juan, a teacher, shares with you research demonstrating that students evaluate the performance of male and female teachers differently (females are evaluated on their competence, intelligence, and familiarity with the material; males are evaluated on how they dress, look, and on whether or not they are “nice”).

On message boards, you are astonished at the level of rage directed at Lawrence. Sexual comments, profanity, sheer irrational fear is spewed all over the internet at him. Again, you think, these kinds of comments would not be tolerated if they were about race or social class. And yet, a chorus of voices rises up sounding like the radical right-wing, attacking a fellow Democrat. You can’t believe this stuff could be tolerated. But then you remember--they are raging against a man, not a women. And that is somehow okay in America.

After the March 4 primary, you counted the number of times major media outlets used positive and negative adjectives in their headlines about each candidate, and found that the negative to positive about Lawrence vs. his opposing female candidates is 5 to 1. You notice Lawrence is described in ways that make him sound like an infant, an emotional wreck, or as some kind of lunatic sorcerer who wants to destroy women, including his opposing candidates. "Your candidate is going to destroy the party and the country!" they cry. The other candidates are described as if they were queens, tenders of the poor, or oppressed women. They are compared to famous historical figures. Lawrence is compared with warlocks, mental patients, and sexual deviants. You are shocked at many of your friends, who don’t seem to realize that this portrayal naturally affects the way Lawrence and the other candidates are perceived by voters.

George Steinhem, a longtime supporter of men’s rights, pens a column for the New York Times about his gender bias concerns. When you read it, and the few other pieces like it before gender falls right out of consideration as an issue, you know Lawrence probably doesn’t have a chance. And after him, there isn’t likely to be another qualified man to run for a very, very long time.

Then you see Lawrence’s last few moments of the Texas debate, and you feel so moved. You realize, in those last few minutes, that this may be one of the last times you ever see 90 minutes of a man on television who isn’t a half-clad dancer gyrating on VH1, a male model with siliconed biceps, or some other entertainer.

Lawrence has shown himself to be brilliant, articulate, empathetic, caring, competent, knowledgable, and strong.

And even all that is not enough. We miss our dancing boys just too much.
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Bicoastal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. But Lawrence voted for Georgina Bush's IWR resolution.
Sorry, Lawrence. I'm sticking with Brunhilde Obama.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's fine--as I said, I'm not trying to changing anyone's vote here :)
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another example from just now
"**Note: If you have a problem with "hysterical", substitute one of these words:

agitated, berserk, beside oneself, blazing, carried away*, convulsive, crazed, crazy, delirious, distracted, distraught, emotional, excited, fiery, frantic, frenzied, fuming, furious, impassioned, impetuous, incensed, irrepressible, mad, maddened, nervous, neurotic, overwrought, panic-stricken, passionate, possessed, rabid, raging, rampant, raving, seething, spasmodic, tempestuous, turbulent, uncontrollable, uncontrolled, unnerved, unrestrained, uproarious, vehement, violent, wild, worked up*"

(from another thread on DU)
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EmilyAnne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. What do those words have to do with a particular gender? I've known many hysterical men and women.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. It's a female gender stereotype...
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Once a week you post a thread about why you're voting for Hillary....
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 05:25 PM by scheming daemons
Last week it was all the supposed "reasons" you moved away from Obama.


This week.... it's nearly 20 paragraphs that can all be boiled down to one sentence:


"I'm voting for Hillary because she's a woman."


We get it.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Sums it up perfectly.
:thumbsup:
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Oh, another one who doesn't or WON'T "get it"
Very sad.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Wow...did you actually read my post?
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Every last word..... 5 minutes of absurdity I'll never get back....

Changed the genders of all the participants and said how would YOU feel, Mr. MAN, if you grew up in a maternalistic society and finally saw a male who busted through the "glass ceiling" and had a chance at being the President?

It was your way of saying.... "I'm a woman. I've lived with this shit my whole life, and dammit... I'm going to vote for the woman because it's about damn fucking time."


There's nothing wrong with that. Lots of people vote for lesser reasons than that.


But let's "be real" here (to quote your candidate).... you're voting for her because she shares your gender.

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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Sorry, you're incorrect.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Did you read it?
:eyes:

I take it you don't think much of women. Yes, we ALL know. :eyes:

Honestly.....
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. Married to an independent career woman, have two daughters... one a teen.
But thanks for your concern.


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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. Women managers are preferred in corporations over men managers.
This is a research result. A lot of people are surprised to learn they prefer having a woman in charge. And yet when it comes to a choice for president, they still lean toward the man. It's bullshit to say "I'll vote for a woman but not that woman," and then blame it on her being "polarizing." No one in the world was more polarizing than bush, but he squeaked through.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes, and they are paid even LESS than the average wage discrepancy
This is a research finding, as well - The Figure That Shows it Pays to be a Man" from the UK Guardian, 9/5/07
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That's okay, because we can manage money better and make it last longer.
;)
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's OKAY?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That's why I winked.
To show that Hillary is a better manager and can get the budget in shape. Women are used to being able to do more with less. :D
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Boo! I can't see winks! I need winks! Where are they?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Winking smilie, or winking emoticon.
Click "Options" at the top of the page (looks like a Rolodex card)

Click "Edit your preferences"

"Hide avatars and other images?" Select "yes" if you do not want to view avatars and other images when viewing a thread.

==========================

If you have "yes" selected, that may be why you didn't see my winking smilie. ;)
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yes! Thank you! Magic! Love the wink!
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Now see this ...
:pals:
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. ahhhh...thank you :)
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. I read your post, and it explains your own perspective well
and makes sense.

You won't want to hear this, but the same illustration that you used could be made for people whose skin color is not white. That is a factor that people seem to dismiss rather lightly, unless they have experienced this reality for themselves.

Beyond that issue though is the fact that perhaps some people don't see "Lawrence's" actions in the role of "first man" as being as ....positive as you do. I'm one of those. There are many aspects of Hillary that I do admire and respect. I don't care much for her 'style'- and before you jump on that as 'sexist'- I find her aggression, and anger to be something I don't care to encourage, or support. I felt the same way about John Edwards, which is a large part of why I chose to support Obama in NH's primary and to vote for him. Anger has fueled too much of our politics in the last few decades.

Much of your own frustration and anger over the treatment of Hillary by the media, is more common than you may want to think. If you look around, you'll find some pretty offensive crap about Laura bush, or w himself- (not that he hasn't earned peoples disgust), but the rude, offensive crud that you claim people have engaged in towards Hillary (the nut-cracker) the references to her feminine attributes, happens all the time- to men, (again bush's codpiece- his protecting his 'boys' etc.) You probably don't care much because it is happening to someone who it is easy to enjoy belittling- but it is sexist, and demeaning in much the same way your illustrations for Hillary are.

As for "pimping" out her offspring- that comment would have come about regardless of the sex of the candidate who was being criticized. The wall of separation between Chelsea and the media was very appropriate and positive when she was a young person placed into the White House spotlight, and the viciousness of those seeking 'a story' at any expense, but now that she is an adult who is using the media to her advantage, she cannot expect to be treated with 'kid-gloves' and not be resented by the very media she is using to her advantage. It isn't nice- but it is the reality of the media in this century. Look at the lengths Angelina Jolie had to go to to give birth with a semblance of peace-

As difficult as it may be to accept, or to believe, there are many people who don't find Hillary to be the best choice for the job based on the same characteristics you highlight in your second to last sentence. It may also be hard for you to accept that this judgment has nothing to do with her sex, and everything to do with her personal actions and words.-

I DO wish I was going to live to see this country headed by a female president. But more important than my desire to know that someone who is 'like me' is president, is my desire for there to be someone who can work to bring us all, women, men and children back from the edge of complete chaos and destruction, and in my own estimation, that person is not Hillary.

I appreciate that you speak about your own observations and feelings in this post- It is much more useful and effective (IMO) than your other post about why you don't support Obama-

peace~
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, of course the post could be changed for Hispanics, or Asians, or
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 06:55 PM by LadyVT
African-Americans, or anyone else, and I certainly don't take that lightly. I'm not African-American, however, and I don't feel like I should be trying to create an African-American's experience in my post for that reason. I can't possibly understand that experience. "You won't want to hear this" is true in the sense that I feel it is diminishing to all of us, not in the sense that I am unaware of it.

Further, I get that many people don't support HIllary for good reasons of their own. I tried to leave out the real world accomplishments of "Lawrence," but it got hard to do that while writing up a simulation. The real world accomplishments are not even what the post is about, except that she is not a high school dropout, for instance.

I am sure this also happens to Laura Bush, and I feel just the same way about it. She is not, however, running for President. "You probably don't care much" is inaccurate. I've done a fair amount of work in the world to prevent gender bias in both directions.

I disagree that if Hillary were a man, he'd be accused of pimping his son... you are correct "it is the reality of the media in this century," which is what sickens me.

Again, I would (and have) vote for Al Gore, or John Edwards, and probably for several other potential, as yet unknown male candidates. I'm not voting for HIllary Clinton because she is a woman. Apart from the voting in THIS election, I see this issue as a big one when it comes to future elections, not just this one. It seems to be getting worse, IMO.
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adoraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. LadyVT - I enjoyed reading your post, I am a white male...
and I do see why it would suck. I am voting for Obama, and I originally followed his campaign because I hated Hillary so much. Now I love Obama (and still hate Hillary), but it got me thinking about why I hate her so much. Could the media have been a big influence? Possibly in the beginning, but now I believe its just because I think shes a terrible person and won't unite like Obama (no offense, lol).

I highly respect posts like yours and it makes me understand why so many females are going for Hillary since she is a female.

The problem though, is there seems to be more people like Roseanne or NOW New York who make absolutely ridiculous claims. The sexist claims they make don't make me want to vote for a woman (your post would be far more effective).

To be honest, before I heard about Obama, I thought it would be a bad idea to have a black person as President. Did that make me racist? Yes, but I have come to like him so much that I am not racist in the slightest anymore. I don't want him to just beat Hillary, I want him to beat McCain (I am an Independent).

Point is, I don't think I would have a problem voting for a woman, but I dislike Hillary for so many reasons that I would never vote for her (none being that shes a woman).

Perhaps some of the initial bias was because she was a woman (like my initial bias for Obama), but after the last year or so I have come to want Obama more than anything.

If, in a few decades, a woman like Obama came along and was up against a man like Hillary, I think I would vote for the woman like Obama. Can't say for sure, but I believe so. Really depends on the person it would be.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. So you think you could get over your sexism
"in a few decades?"

I hear Mike Huckabee calling your name.
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adoraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. oh shut up
I meant I don't believe another woman would actually have a chance in a few decades. I may be wrong though. I think we will have 8 years of Obama and then probably at least another election or two until another woman makes a serious run. I didn't mean it like that and you know it.

I don't consider myself sexist, but yes I do have a little bias. I think everyone does for something (race/age/sex). Anyone who denies that I think is lying.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. adoraz, thanks for your post. I appreciate your thoughtfulness in responding, and
Edited on Sat Feb-23-08 07:14 PM by LadyVT
you might want to check out a video called Dreamworlds (there are now 3 revisions of it). It really makes media influence over our sense of gender very clear, by looking at MTV and VH videos and ads.

I'm glad you've changed you views about African-Americans.

Do please consider that it is dangerous to "hate" anyone you've never actually met. Everyone on television is "created" in some sense by the media through editing, good and bad. And men and women are always edited differently, and in both cases, often in horrific ways!

It's also relatively recently (since the advent of television) in our history to vote for the most likable candidate, or that attractiveness has been an issue. Sometimes I long for the days way before I was born, when voters learned about candidates mostly through the newspaper, which maintained their trust with the American people by being strictly unbiased and focusing on issues, positions, experience, and all that stuff we mostly have to come here to get these days!

Anyway, thanks again for your post.
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adoraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. lol don't worry I don't "hate" her
Its not like I want to kill her or anything, I just really dislike her thats all. :)

Hate was too strong a word.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. was your use of "Dancing boys" intentional? are you aware of
this:


The Dancing Boys of the North

Wealthy strongmen recruit adolescent boys for entertainment and sex, with the local authorities powerless to stop the practice.

By Sayed Yaqub Ibrahimi in Mazar-e-Sharif (ARR No. 268, 10-Oct-07)

“Some men enjoy playing with dogs, some with women. I enjoy playing with boys,” said Allah Daad, a one-time mujahedin commander in the northern Afghan province of Kunduz.

He is one of a growing number of men involved in what is known as “bacha baazi”— literally, “boy-play” — a time-honoured tradition, deplored by human rights activists and clerics, that is seeing a revival in the relatively secure north of Afghanistan.

The boys are kept by powerful older men, made to dance at special parties, and often sexually abused afterwards. Known as “bacha bereesh” - literally, “beardless boys”, they are under 18, with 14 the preferred age.

“When I was young, I had a bacha bereesh who was the best in the region,” recalled Allah Daad, 44. “He danced like a flying pigeon.... Nobody could take his place afterwards. I kept him for three years, then left him when he matured.”

Allah Daad has kept many boys over the years, and says he enjoys his “hobby”. “I am married, but I prefer boys to women,” he said. “You can’t take women with you to parties in this region, and you can’t make them dance. These boys are our prestige.”

Large halls known as “qush-khana” provide the venues for bacha baazi parties where the boys’ “owners” or “kaatah” invite their friends to watch them dancing. Late in the night, when the dancing is over, the boys are often shared with close friends, for sexual abuse.

Allah Daad explained how the boys are enticed into the arrangement. “First we select boys in the village and later on we try to trick them into coming with us,” he said. “Some of them stay with us for money; they get a monthly allowance, and in return we can have them any time we want. They don’t stay with us all the time - they can do their own jobs and then just come to parties with us.”

If a boy refuses to become a bacha bereesh, he said, there is little a man can do to make him. “We can’t force them,” he insisted. “Only the very powerful can have boys with them all the time.”

The owner will take his boy to wedding parties to show him off to other men.

“When the party starts, the boys are dressed in special clothes, called ‘jaaman’,” continued Allah Daad. “Then Mazari dancing bells are tied to their feet and they dance in time to the music.”

Several different types of dances are popular, he explained, each with its own beat. If the boy refuses to dance or performs badly, his master beats him with a long stick.

“We have to do that,” said Allah Daad. “We spend money on these boys, so they have to dance.”

Allah Dad’s current bacha, who is 16, refused to be interviewed.

Another owner forced his 14-year-old boy to speak, although he would not give his name.

“I was dancing last night,” he said, looking exhausted. “I have been doing this for the past year. I have no choice - I’m poor. My father is dead, and this is the only source of income for me and my family. I try to dance well, especially at huge parties. The men throw money at me, and then I gather it up. Sometimes they take me to the market and buy me nice clothes.”

The tradition of older men maintaining adolescent boys is by no means restricted to the north of Afghanistan, but the custom is in abeyance in the south, where the Taleban and their strict moral code act as a deterrent.

In the north, no such curbs exist, and bacha baazi has seen a massive resurgence in the past few years.

“Bacha baazi has increased tremendously lately and is still on the rise,” said Baz Gul, a resident of Kunduz. “In the past, people were ashamed of it, and tried to hide it. Now nobody is shy about it, and they participate openly in these parties.”

He explained that there were several reasons why the practice had become more common, one of which was the growing influence of local strongmen, who regard bacha baazi as status symbols.

http://iwpr.net/?p=arr&s=f&o=339770&apc_state=henparr



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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. It was a reference to female "pole dance" media culture
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. I can make the same argument for Obama as a black man.
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yes, you could. Please see response #18 where this was addressed.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-23-08 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
32. Kick
Because it needs to be seen.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
36. It all sounds good, but...
a) many of the allegations leveled at Clinton have also been leveled at Obama; He's going to destroy the party, he's a republican plant designed to subvert the 'real' candidate; he's too egotistical, ambitious, yadda yadda.

b) it's so, so easy to use sexism as a figleaf for Hillary Clinton's failure - yes, failure - to run a competent campaign. In your scenario, none of the several women governors or senators around the country have a chance. Everything rides on Hillary's success...sorry, no it doesn't.

c) women are pole dancers, talk show hosts, or entertainers, in the scenario you paint above (by comparison). Now, I'm no fan of the current administration, but we have a female secretary of Labor (incidentally, the longest serving member of the cabinet...perhaps because the Bush administration hasn't proposed much in the way of labor policy), the press secretary is female, The secretary of state is female, the transportation secretary is female, the trade secretary is female, and we have also had (but since resigned) female secretaries of agriculture, the interior, and the environment.

Are these posts unimportant? Are these womens' achievments unimportant or insignificant? Why is your role-reversal fable so dismissive of them? You complain that only 33 cabinet members in history have been female, but make no mention of the fact that fully a quarter of them have been appointed by the current administration. Much as I dislike Bush, he's made a genuine commitment to including women at the top levels of his administration in numerous key positions. His judgment and management skills are abysmal, but he has shown some degree of sincerity and his talk about diversity and a cabinet that reflected today's America has actually been matched by actions.

Your post would have hit the nail on the head...if it were written in 1978. Now it's 2008 and the world has moved on considerably, but your analogy is way out of date.

And for myself, I have not dealt with the face of power being male all my life...because I'm from Europe. I lived in the UK when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. My own country, Ireland, has elected female presidents the last two times, one of whom went on to become human rights commissioner at the UN after she retired from the presidency. I've had about as many female employers as male. My female partner substantially outearns me at the moment. Neither of us have any doubt about whether a woman can or should become presidnt of the USA. It's just that neither of us like Hillary Clinton.

To be perfectly honest, the #1 reason that I don't care for is that she didn't take on Bush in 2004, but waited for him to leave office instead. Kerry was an inadequate nominee who candidacy made much of the campaign into a referendum on Viet Nam and the 60s. So we proposed a war hero against a war president...but I don't recall Hillary declaring a run for the nomination. I would have been out night and day to support her if she had, whereas Kerry stimulated only minimal participation from me. I signed up at a draft Hillary website in 03 or early 04.

In my view, she missed the moment and is now trying to catch a wave that has already moved past her. Her campaign went through last year looking like the second coming of Clinton. Without an incumbent to run against, she took over the role. A natural choice, a Clinton to clean up after a Bush and all that...where was all this moral courage in 2004? Everyone knows that it's easier to run for a vacant office than against an incumbent. She didn't make the attempt to push Bush out so she could clean up - she's just positioned herself at the head of the line to enter an empty White House. Gee, how daring.

Now those of us disenchanted with the idea of Clinton redux are painted as maintainers of gender bias, while risking frank accusations of sexism if we criticize Hillary directly in ways that we would any other candidate (which is not to say that there has been no sexism in the campaign, but there have been plenty of other isms floating around too, and most Democrats comments on McCain are pretty ageist). I reject these labels. Hillary Clinton is for me a candidate with a sense of entitlement, who let a decisive moment in history (2004) pass rather than take a political risk, and has tried to win the nomination this time by playing on a sense of historical inevitability.

I can think of a long list of more worthy women candidates for the nation's highest office, and when one of them runs I'll be thrilled to sign on to her campaign the day after she declares. I absolutely reject your notion that if Clinton doesn't succeed, neither can any other woman for a long time - I think it's insulting to the achievements and personal struggle of those women on a human level.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
37. K & R!
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LadyVT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-24-08 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
38. It would be great if responses could focus on the main point.
Which is NOT Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, or who anyone should vote for anyone else.

Only 16% of Congress are women. 85% of Congress are men.
Women still make at least 20% of what men make for doing the same jobs.
The adjectives used by the media, and many DU posters, to describe women are predictable and stereotypical.

We have a LONG way to go.
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