It is time for a female president.

[Captain_Nemo]

I respect the fact that Hillary did NOT vote for Cheney's Energy bill....and I respect her work for women and children around the world. In all honesty (and i know I will get the posters who will yell and scream and call me names please don't bother I will ignore you) it is time that the USA showed their daughters and sons a female president.

Soft issues (rights of children and women) need to be placed on the front burner if we are to change our world.

Soft issues is what Hillary has spent her life fighting for.

If you are female in the USA then you have spent a lifetime looking at the pictures of the presidents and seeing all men. (And we wonder why women have self-esteem problems, domestic violence, make less money that men and are under represented in government.)

We are 52% of the population. after 276 years it's time to see ourselves in the most powerful position in the USA.

Some say "well, I would vote for a woman but just not this woman."

I ask "Who then?"

Out of fifty states we have two female governors
Out of fifty states we have 16 female senators.

We are underrepresented in our own government.

Then I look at the facts:

1. She voted against Cheney's energy bill and Obama voted for it. (6 billion in subsidies for oil companies.)
2. He has consistently voted to fund the war the entire time he has been in the Senate. (anti-war?)
3. She has consistently worked to better the lives of women and children around the world (look it up if you don't believe it.)
4. She has women's rights on her website and Obama does not
5. Barack courts the religious right with his male dominated language that promotes male domination in religion (I've had enough of that for a lifetime, actually.)
6. Barack has a shitload of corporate money behind him
7. His health care plan covers children but not their mothers? Wow, that makes sense!
8. He can trash Wal Mart in a debate with Hillary but there are many americans who cannot afford to purchase from anywhere else.
9. Read the Chicago Sun Times and search for "Rezko Obama." Then read every article. (that's all I need to say)

Lastly, In all honesty - and I mean this:
If there is not a female on this presidential ticket I wil have to abstain from voting in the GE. Why? Because a lifetime of voting for all men for presidents is enough.

I have to vote my with my core principals.

[Lautremont]

1. Voting with your core principals is not the same as

NOT voting with your core principals, if you know what I mean. Pulling the lever in the GE for a man if that's who wins the primary isn't the same as pulling the lever against a woman.

[sloppyjoe25s]

80. OPs facts are FLAT wrong - and it's FAR worse for a Black man

There are 8 female governors - 3 of whom support Obama. Not 2.

There are FAR more than there are Black Governors:

ONE - Deval Patrick, Massachusetts (and there have only been 2 in US HISTORY!!!)

How many black senators now?

One - Barack Obama - and there have only been 5 in US HISTORY!!

AND YET OBAMA DOES NOT PLAY THE RACE CARD.
He NEVER says "vote for me because I am black" --- WOMEN SHOULD NOT vote for Hillary because
she calls on them to "Make History" or "It's time for a woman"

WRONG - That will hurt rather than help women. Electing the Wrong Woman - Mrs. Clinton - will only set women back!

The time is always right to elect the best leader: In this election -> Barack Obama

[rzemanfl]

2. What schools do your core principals come from? Are you

going to share a ride?

[Boojatta]

3. What if Obama gets sex reassignment surgery, hormone injections, etc?

[AGirl]

146. is he transgender?

[Bicoastal]

4. If there is no Jewish candidate on the presidential ticket, I will have to abstain from voting.

Why? Because a lifetime of voting for all Christians for presidents is enough.

I have to vote with my core principals.

[Alexander]

5. Wrong. It's time for a good president, male or female.

I would be happy with Barbara Boxer, Kathleen Sebelius or Janet Napolitano if they had chosen to run this year.

[Captain_Nemo]

8. But they are not running. For first time we have a chance to make a difference for girls and boys.

[Yael]

14. If the first female president is a Republican -- are you OK with that?

[Captain_Nemo]

31. if she is pro-choice, yes.

[Alexander]

35. Wow. Says a lot about you. So if she's pro-war, that's okay?

Sounds like you might not belong here.

[jgraz]

44. Of course pro-war is OK. Hillary is about as pro-war as it gets.

[BigDaddy44]

85. As an aside.....

I know I'm new here, and I'm a long time lurker, but i really REALLY hate it when someone says "you may not belong here". Its as if someone failed some sort of ideological purity test, and is suddenly been deemed tainted or with suspicion. Can we please just discuss issues without putting the fear into people that they'll be reported to the DU Stasi if they have a wavering thought?

[MadBadger]

37. So if Condi Rice was pro-choice, youd support her?

Some democrat you are.

[SoxFan]

65. Fail

[LadyVT]

74. These responses are SO predictable... yawn

[SoxFan]

84. Answer this, then

If the election were between, say, Susan Collins and Mark Warner, who gets your vote?

[MadBadger]

18. I'm sick of whitey running things. I want a black man in the white house.

[NDambi]

188. Ha Ha..

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

157. she can't make a decision without Mark (Blackwater) Penn advising her

Seriously, her judgement is way off.

Do we really want the country's budget to be run like her campaign budget?

Do we really want the treasury spent on a few rich white guys, while the rest of the
country goes under?

Do we really want more wars?

And seriously, whats the chance of putting Blackwater out of business when
Hillary's consultant works for them?

[ErnestoG]

6. Absolutely. Just not HER.

[yourguide]

7. I agree that it's time for a female president.

This one just isnt the one.

[Captain_Nemo]

17. I find it kind of sad that my fellow progressives dismiss the following:

She stands for health care for all - this includes working mothers who need it desperately.
She has mobilized women around the world to stand together for their rights.
She has never courted the religious right with words like "His truth" His word"
6 billion dollars in a giveaway to oil companies is a travesty for us. She voted against it.
She does not have ties to Rezko, Stuart Levine, Stroger, alexi Giannoulias,
She does not have Exelon
She has foreign policy experience

[MadBadger]

23. First of all half your things are attacks on Obama and what exactly is her foreign policy experience

[OzarkDem]

32. Agree

The minority of progressives supporting Obama seem to have lost all concern over real issues they once cared for.

Also not surprising to see rampant sexism among progressives.

[yourguide]

38. ROFL

I am a woman, I WANT to see a woman win - she just isnt the one I want to see win. Obama is a better candidate.

But of course, now you cry sexism too.

[OzarkDem]

66. no, just ignorance of the issues

I don't care who you vote for.

BTW, your pics of Obama look really bizarre.

[yourguide]

34. I also find it hard that MY fellow progressives dismiss the following

She has run a negative campaign
she has taken over $750,000 in campaign contributions from lobbyists
she has taken almost $1,000,000 in PAC contributions
she voted for the war in iraq
she was the LAST democrat to admit she was wrong in the vote for iraq
she has significant ties to Norman Hsu and other "shady" donors
she has blown a significant lead in the polls and campaign funds
she has not passed ANY lgbt legislation for the state of NY or in the congress


oh and edited to add: She denies supporting NAFTA even though it's in her book then pitches a friggin fit when a mailer mentions it.

[jgraz]

39. I'm not your "fellow" progressive if you'd vote for a Repug

9 more days of this shit...

[ErnestoG]

82. Wait, you forgot....

Voted for IWR

Voted for Kyl-Lieberman

Close to PNAC and various Republican PR firms

About to be dragged into court in a fraud trial

Peddling a health care INSURANCE bill, not a universal health care coverage bill.

[K Gardner]

9. She has NO principles. She is a shell of a human being. No thanks but knock yourself out.

[OzarkDem]

10. Thanks, great points

She also has policy statements and plans that are well thought out. She has taken the time to work on developing new plans for the future of the US. All Obama offers is vague talking points. That says a lot about their character.

I also have a great deal of concern over his complete lack of addressing women's issues.

[Captain_Nemo]

20. Yes, and I find that sadly lacking in this thread. My so-called fellow progressives dismiss

women and children's rights so readily.

I am actually sickened to think that there will actually be another all male ticket on this years ballot.

That is pretty fucking disgusting.

[yourguide]

60. Just because she is a woman

it doesnt make her the RIGHT woman, or dont you get that?

[LadyVT]

75. These aren't progressives. These are DU posters.

[Adams Wulff]

184. I call Bullshit..

There are pages and pages of policy from Obama on this board, and you know it.

the fact that you won't read them, or click on the links provided is your deficiency, not Obama's.

It is your policy not to reply to ANY positive threads regarding Obama in hopes that it will sink like a stone.

I have seen many threads where the information is spoon fed to Hillary supporters, yet literally ignored.

They won't listen, they won't read, their lack of curiosity is rivaled only by G.W. Bush.

I have tried to bring to Hillary's supporters the policies and positions of Senator Obama, and the silence is deafening.

They don't want links, because moving the mouse and clicking is hard.

When you cut and paste pages of the platform, it's too long, and violates DU rules.

When they are gathered in an Austin TX. bar for a debate watching party, they cheer their candidate while she speaks, and chat among themselves when Barack speaks.

They don't want to read.

They don't want to listen.

They don't want to know.

All they want to do is attack using Clinton's talking points. I guess Hillary and her campaign learned a lot from Rupert Murdoch.

[intaglio]

11. Would you have voted for Margaret Thatcher?

If so your only politics are the politics of envy

[Captain_Nemo]

26. Other countries have more of a history of women leaders.

[Yael]

12. So, if the Republicans were running a female against Obama, she should get the vote?

[XemaSab]

13. This woman doesn't agree

:(

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. I agree with evey one of your points.

[Captain_Nemo]

98. Then, keep talking about how important it is for girls to see themselves reflected in positions of

power.
As Hillary said in Beijing..."Women's rights are human rights."

[Whisp]

111. what about those women and other humans in Iraq?

what about their rights?

feh.

[texas_indy]

16. 276 years??

From your post:

"We are 52% of the population. after 276 years it's time to see ourselves in the most powerful position in the USA."

2008 - 276 = 1732

I thought we were still under British rule in 1732. Man, you sure do learn something new everyday on DU, eh??



Texas is Obama country! VIVA OBAMA!

[cali]

19. I don't give a shit what the gender of the president is

I want a good president. And I don't believe she fits the bill. sorry.

[Captain_Nemo]

24. maybe you should think about how girls view themselves in the world. Imagine

what it is like to never have had a female president. Never.

It sucks.

[grace0418]

42. It does suck. But I'm still going to vote for the best candidate, man or woman.

And not voting because you can't have exactly what you want is pointless and selfish.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

62. How do African American children view themselves? nt

[LadyVT]

77. The poster is discussing GENDER, not race--you can discuss that elsewhere.

Stay on topic, please.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

83. I'll discuss what I want, where I want.

I'm being told by the OP that I must support the woman because, somehow, the elevation of an incredibly privileged and well-connected white woman will improve the status and self-esteem of little girls the world over. This despite the fact that several women before her have ascended to be heads-of-state without any significant improvements to the lives of women in their nation ensuing from it. Did the coronation of Queen Elizabeth I or Queen Victoria usher in an era of liberation for the women they ruled over? I hardly think so.

Sorry, but I see the patriarchy as an all-encompassing hierachal system, where white women have been complicit in subjugating people of color just as surely as men of color have been complict with white men in oppressing women. Probably even more so. It's not either/or. It's both/and. Stop with the false dichotomies, please.

[NDambi]

191. You can't separate the two..especially in this election..or don't you know ...a ...

black man is running for President too.

It's a valid stand and very much on topic.

[cali]

64. I'm a woman

and I know that there will be a woman president in the future. Thankfully, it won't be Clinton. And not having had a woman president is not the most tragic thing in the world. Not even close. I'd rather a woman made it on her own anyway, and not because her hubby was the president.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

86. Honestly, it's kind of insulting when you think about it.

You'd think that HRC was our last chance to ever see a qualified woman in the White House. They clearly don't think too highly of their own gender. I can rattle off several names of highly qualified women that would have a great chance if they were running right now, including my own Gov. Janet Napolitano.

[Captain_Nemo]

99. she's not running. and, given the amoutn of insults Hilalry has endured - fat ankles, being called

a whore (here o nDU) the impact of this is daunting. You have to be VERY resilient. We don't know if these other 8 Governors can hold up to the scrutiny. She is our first chance and may be the last for a long time.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

100. But she is not our last chance.

Bullshit misogynistic slurs notwithstanding, I still cannot reconcile her votes for the Iraq war, Kyl-Lieberman, and cluster bombs. I wouldn't vote for a warmongering, triangulating, slimy campaigning male if there were a better candidate available so why should I pick the woman? That has nothing to do with her gender. It has to do with her being an entitled-acting DLCer who thinks that we should all line up behind her because she's entitled. She couldn't even deign to campaign in Red states like mine, while Obama had a ground game here back in March.

[NDambi]

192. I certainly don't see Obama as the last chance..I see it as a beginning of things to come ..a...

turning of the page, so to speak.

Don't be so pessimistic about the chances of a woman president in this country.

HRC is too polarizing..it may not be fair, but thems the facts.

[Recursion]

76. And imagine what black kids think about only seeing white Presidents

Or does that not matter?

[Captain_Nemo]

107. Demographics: women are in majority and we cross racial boundaries. You change the country more with

a female president.

Female persons, percent, 2006 50.7%

Black persons, percent, 2006 12.8%

http://quickfacts.census.gov/

[Recursion]

110. Why hasn't the majority elected "one of their own" in the past 88 years?

I've always wondered that. Women are a majority of voters. Why do men still run the government?

[Captain_Nemo]

117. EXACTLY! and the answer is: We encourage it. If you keep buying from the company store you will

never be free.

[Captain_Nemo]

127. My first answer was too flippant. The reason is because women are underrepresented in US government

It wasn't until 1985 (I am pretty sure) that the first woman was in congress as an elected official. In the past .

Ou of fifty states (100 Senators) we have 16 women.

and we only have 8 governors. (I misspoke earlier and wrote 4 governors and all hell has broken loose with people getting nastier by the minute.)

e haven't been in power very long and we don't have the financial ties men have to draw from.

So, Hillary is unique in many regards.

There may not be another female candidate in my lifetime.

[Recursion]

Dupe

Delete

[Recursion]

130. You're joking, right? Jeanette Rankin was elected in 1916

She was elected before national Suffrage. She voted against WWI and WWII.

[Captain_Nemo]

148. so nasty here. Yes, I was wrong. Nasty, nasty.

[Recursion]

154. How was I nasty?

I pointed out you were off by 70 years, to an extent that essentially made your argument moot.

[Nederland]

196. Pointing out factual mistakes

...is not being nasty.

[Recursion]

152. Gah! Dupe again

[NDambi]

193. So the self-esteem of women is more important than black people's because there are more women?

[NDambi]

189. And how should blacks view themselves since they've never seen a black president..?

How about Native Americans?
How about Latino Americans?
How about Jewish Americans?
How about Asian Americans?


Just curious.

[saltpoint]

21. How about Amy Goodman? I like Amy Goodman.

[Orsino]

22. We may not be able to afford the luxury of voting for Clinton.

We need a hero, and I don't think she will ever become one. My hope's faded for Obama, too.

But I'll applaud whichever one of them makes history by taking the Oval office.

[Captain_Nemo]

29. Presidents are not heroes. Presidents fix problems.

[jgraz]

43. well, lately, all Hillary's been doing is causing problems

For herself, for her campaign and for our party. She's a walking train wreck.

[Captain_Nemo]

162. Ooh, she is doing a great job. Her toughness is what I want in a president. Not a showman.

[Orsino]

48. If she can fix *any* of the major problems facing us, she is a hero.

That Newsday story, though, turns my stomach. If I'm ever going to consider supporting her for president, it won't be today.

Right now, I'm actually glad that she seems to have lost the nomination.

[Obamanaut]

72. Not necessarily true - nothing fixed in the past seven years. nt

[LadyVT]

78. Totally agree.

[PM7nj]

25. there are 8 female governors

..not 2.
delaware, washington, hawaii, michigan, arizona, kansas, connecticut, and alaska all have female governors.

[MadBadger]

28. At least three of those are supporting Obama too

[texas_indy]

40. Darn it, there you go bringing facts into the discussion!!

Here, have another sip of koolaid and lets celebrate the founding of the US 276 years ago in 1732!!

Texas is Obama country, VIVA OBAMA!!

[quantass]

27. Voting Only Because she is Female... Boo!

I get the impression from your post that the strongest reason of all just happens to be because she is a woman. You have not considered Hilary's laundry list of evils. I would like a female president one day but i want one that has integrity and i have respect for her at ALL TIMES ... Hilary is making an embarassment of herself and i was hoping she would have taken that one single moment of praise on Tuesday and expanded on that for these last days of her campaign but she has decided to humiliate her name and end her career on a sour note...good riddence.

[Captain_Nemo]

30. show me the laundry list. and you didn't read the thread. I mentioned all the reasons why.

[OzarkDem]

36. Best candidate, not just female

and many Obama supporters aren't fooling anyone. They know he is poor on issues and experience and are making their choice because she is a woman.

[Yael]

41. Would you vote for a Republican female over Obama?

[OzarkDem]

54. If they were more qualified and better on the issues, sure

However, the prospect is highly unlikely.

[NDambi]

195. And many HRC supporters aren't fooling anyone..many are making their choices

for Hillary simply because he's black (issues be damned)!

See, how it works? It cuts both ways.

[Obamaman2008]

33. Voting for someone based on Gender is Sexist

Obama didn't choose his gender. To say you are going to vote for someone based on gender or race, I think is Unamerican and discriminatory.

[Deja Q]

51. Yeah, but since when does common sense dictate politics?

And you're 100% correct. The OP is being shallow and selfish for the sexism.

[rodeodance]

58. yet some with vote for him because he is black-will you then say it is racist? Get real.

do you see your distorted upside down 'logic"??? do you.

[Captain_Nemo]

105. I have heard a lot of African Americans happy they might have a black man in office. Do you trash

them like you have trashed me here?

[Obamaman2008]

114. I don't see Obama supporters saying they should vote for him because he is Black

Understand the difference, one is Pride, and the other is Prejudice

[Captain_Nemo]

174. Don't even try to paint me into a corner. There have been

numerous articles about the excitement of having an African American president. and it is exciting. But, I see a complete negation and lack of discussion around the fact that the first female president is exciting too.
Its just treated as "oh yeah no big deal its Hillary."

That's bullshit.

[Captain_Nemo]

112. Yes, If I didn't agree with her politics. But as I wrote in the post I listed all the things

about her that made her superior to him (in my mind) as a candidate.

His health care plan is much less than Hillary's

Paul Krugman: Clinton’s plan ‘would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's.' "Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton’s would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's... And both plans seek to make insurance affordable to lower-income Americans. The Clinton plan is, however, more explicit about affordability, promising to limit insurance costs as a percentage of family income. And it also seems to include more funds for subsidies.

He voted for Cheney's eenrgy bill which gave 6 billion in subsidies to oil companies:

Obama voted for Bush's 2005 energy bill that contained $6 billion in oil and gas subsidies. In 2005, Obama voted twice for Bush's Energy Bill, HR 6. It contained $6 billion in oil and gas subsidies. Hillary voted against the bill.

---

[gordianot]

45. I refuse to vote based on gender, race, religious affiliation, or ethnic origin.

I admit I do tend to vote for Democrats whom I share common interest. A couple times I have favored a Republican but only cast a ballot for one Republican, never have I favored a Republican Presidential candidate.

My Democratic hero was Barbara Jordan and I have never recovered from the loss of Bobby Kennedy.

[Captain_Nemo]

46. I'll just say this here. Ignoring Obama's record doesn't help us. furthermore I am stunned

that my fellow liberals can completely ignore Obama's record. I am also disgusted at the lack of intelligent discussion around the fact that this is the first time in our country that women have a chance to see themselves in the seat of power. That is worthy of discussion.

I couple the lack of discussion about this with the facts on Obama's record:

1. He is not for health care for everyone
2. He voted for Cheney's energy bill.
3. He courts the religious right.
4. He has voted to fund the war the entire time he has been in the senate

If Skinner can write that sickening post about how we are finally voting for a black man and how great that is than my post at least has some facts about their records.

And, as I leave DU because of the utter disregard for facts and intelligent discussion about how the candidates fare on their backgrounds check this one out. and, if being a liberal doesn't give you an inkling of this guy then, well, I can't say it because I don't want the post deleted.

My Life as an FBI MOLE
"But sources said that, for more than two years when he was giving information to agents, Thomas provided a fly-on-the-wall look inside Rezko's real estate operations and his desperate attempts to keep his projects afloat.

Sources said Thomas also logged frequent visits to Rezko from Gov. Blagojevich and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.). Blagojevich and Obama were among the many politicians for whom Rezko raised campaign cash. Neither has been charged with any wrongdoing.

Sources said Thomas helped investigators build a record of repeat visits to the old offices of Rezko and former business partner Daniel Mahru's Rezmar Corp., at 853 N. Elston, by Blagojevich and Obama during 2004 and 2005.

In one case, sources said, Thomas told authorities he saw a Rezmar employee pass an envelope with a visible wad of bills to an unidentified Blagojevich aide.
Both politicians relied on Rezko for fund-raising connections. Obama was in the thick of his successful run for the U.S. Senate in 2004. Now in the glare of a presidential campaign, Obama has donated to charity $157,835 from contributions to his Senate campaign that he has linked to Rezko."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/786015,CST-NWS-mole10.article

Farewell my so-called fellow progressives:
Captain Nemo

[PM7nj]

53. How is Hillary a progressive?

This may shock you, but Hillary voted to authorize the Iraq War and she has also consistently funded the war (as she should have).

[Captain_Nemo]

121. I can surmise this about the war vote: She was the Senator from NYC (hardest hit on 9/11) and

she was presented with information from the CIA that there were WMD's.

Now, if she had voted no on the resolution I think we can surmise that she would hve been painted as a flag waving liberal.
Exactly the reason why Obama has consistently voted to fund the war.

Now read this on her progressive background:

"Anyone who doubts Hillary Clinton's international experience might consult with democracy activists in the Slovak Republic, who remember when she stood in solidarity with them and publicly challenged their new government's suppression of civil society.

They might talk to women - from the Philippines to Latin America to the Middle East - who can vote, own property, or go to school, because Hillary Clinton helped start a global women's movement for women's rights. Or they might travel to Africa and Asia, where Hillary Clinton visited countless remote villages to show how the poorest of the poor could become entrepreneurial and self-sufficient when given access to small loans.

In the heat of presidential campaign politics, candidates on both sides dismiss a First Lady's work as insignificant to foreign policy. But in Hillary Clinton's case, such a presumption is not only wrong, it trivializes the important global issues of human rights, democracy, and international development that are so central to strengthening American values and influence overseas and are hallmarks of her exhaustive work around the world.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

Whether working to support civil society in Russia, pushing for programs to combat the spread of AIDS in Africa, or flying into war-torn Bosnia to nurture a new peace agreement, she has carried the message and face of American democracy to some of the most challenging regions of the globe.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissa-muscatine-and-melanne-verveer/hillarys-unprecedented-e_b_76883.html

[Egnever]

124. Clue ... Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11

As senator from New York she knew that.

[Captain_Nemo]

132. clue: When the CIA goes to congress and presents information that WMD's exist and you

are the Senator from NYC. What are you going to do? Say, Oh I think you are lying?

also, this fucking IWR vote completely blinds people to EVERYTHING else she has done!
And, remember Barack gave one anti-war speech (wow, impressive) and has since voted to fund the war and said that his view on the war is the same as GW Bush's.(Wow, unique, forceful.)

Please, he is NOT that liberal.


Let's not throw away everything Hillary has done for women.

Anyone who doubts Hillary Clinton's international experience might consult with democracy activists in the Slovak Republic, who remember when she stood in solidarity with them and publicly challenged their new government's suppression of civil society.

They might talk to women - from the Philippines to Latin America to the Middle East - who can vote, own property, or go to school, because Hillary Clinton helped start a global women's movement for women's rights. Or they might travel to Africa and Asia, where Hillary Clinton visited countless remote villages to show how the poorest of the poor could become entrepreneurial and self-sufficient when given access to small loans."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissa-muscatine-and-melanne-verveer/hillarys-unprecedented-e_b_76883.html

[Egnever]

166. Clue..... I read the NIE

There was plenty of info out there saying it was all bullshit. Every single peice of evidence bush put out was proven false within minutes of him uttering it, you just had to look past the front page. She couldnt be bothered to read the actual inteligence reports.

And no its not just the IWR its the cluster bombs and the kyle/lieberman and the flag burning amendment bullshit and her cozyness with the worst of the lobying scum including her guru mark pen who represents blackwater of all things.

I encourage her to continue working for womens issues. That doesnt mean I want her anywhere near the white house.

[Recursion]

156. OMFG!!!! Did a DU'er just link Iraq to 9/11??!!!!!????!??!!!

Please please PLEASE tell me you were kidding.

[Captain_Nemo]

163. For you to read that into it you would have to leap in logic.

[NDambi]

197. Well

I couple the lack of discussion about this with the facts on Obama's record:

1. He is not for health care for everyone

(I agree with his health care more than hers-it isn't planning to garnish my wages for not participating).

2. He voted for Cheney's energy bill.

(She voted for the IWR--much more heinous in my eyes).

3. He courts the religious right.

(She courts lobbyist and special interest--I think they are more dangerous).

4. He has voted to fund the war the entire time he has been in the senate.

(She voted for the IWR--he voted to fund the troops--I would be upset, if he didn't--I have family members there--it's a done deal--give them what they need).

[onenote]

47. so are you saying that its not time for an African American president?

Sort of sounds like it.

[Captain_Nemo]

101. I am saying that women are in the majority and sexism crosses racial boundaries so

you are changing more people. And, frankly, yes, I think a female president changes much more than a male president. Let's look at her background with women and children. It is formidable. If we have a female we lift up ALL girls. IF we have a man we lift up all boys.

We have had men - forever in our country. Let's shift the power and change our country.

"They might talk to women - from the Philippines to Latin America to the Middle East - who can vote, own property, or go to school, because Hillary Clinton helped start a global women's movement for women's rights. Or they might travel to Africa and Asia, where Hillary Clinton visited countless remote villages to show how the poorest of the poor could become entrepreneurial and self-sufficient when given access to small loans.

In the heat of presidential campaign politics, candidates on both sides dismiss a First Lady's work as insignificant to foreign policy. But in Hillary Clinton's case, such a presumption is not only wrong, it trivializes the important global issues of human rights, democracy, and international development that are so central to strengthening American values and influence overseas and are hallmarks of her exhaustive work around the world.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissa-muscatine-and-melanne-verveer/hillarys-unprecedented-e_b_76883.html

[onenote]

202. fwiw, in my experience, I see more women achieving positions of prominence than Afican americans

I'm a lawyer and throughout my career, I have had far more female colleagues and seen more women achieve senior positions than I have American Americans. Have women cracked the glass ceiling? For the most part no. But African Americans seem to have trouble even getting in the door.

I'm not supporting Obama because he's African American but because I believe he is our best candidate. And I am not opposed to HRC because she's a woman -- and I will enthusiastically support her if she is the nominee. However, I do think that the benefit in terms of changing attitudes, within the African American population, within the white population and around the world, by electing an African American president cannot be understated.

[babylonsister]

49. And I don't respect the fact she voted for war.

That, and a host of other things, like I don't know who she is (a different personality comes out daily, it seems) and I don't trust her, at all.

[Deja Q]

50. For every fact I'm not fond of her; it's countered by a fact that's a good thing... but

to counter your points, the ones left blank mean I am in agreement with you:

1.
2.
3.
4. This could be conjectured: She likes to pander. He likes to think we're all Americans.
5.
6. Hillary doesn't?!
7. Her plan is insurance for all; health insurance companies will love that --- especially if you have any pre-existing conditions. Even asthma would be a disqualifier in the past. Now a person would get coverage... but has Candidate Clinton bothered to say how much the premiums for that poor sod might be?
8. She was on Wal-Mart's board. Has Barack? BTW: Thanks to offshoring and other issues, that's the reason why many can't afford to go elsewhere. ;)
9. Why?

You can abstain all you want. If you do, you lose your right to whine. Isn't that the usual attitude accorded people who don't vote?

BTW: The word is "principles"... Your word describes either the original sum of a debt, or the dude or dude-ette who runs a school. Methinks you might want to try the latter... :blush:

[KaptBunnyPants]

52. So Margaret Thatcher then?

[BringBigDogBack]

55. I'm 100% ready for a female president. Hillary is definitely not the one tho.

[Captain_Nemo]

164. Even though her health care plan covers all women and not just their children?

[Raine]

56. I won't vote for a candidate just cause they are a woman

or because they're a man or because they're white or because they're black or because they're straight or because they're gay etc. etc. etc. I will vote for the person I believe is best. The one absolute is that they MUST belong to the DEMOCRATIC Party. I don't believe Hillary is the best person, so I'm supporting Obama

[BattyDem]

57. I'm a woman and I won't vote for any canididate simply because she's a woman.

It has to be the right woman. Voting for someone based solely on their gender is just as silly as NOT voting for someone based solely on their gender. JMHO

[OzarkDem]

67. Too bad you didn't read the post

then perhaps you could respond to the issues mentioned.

[BattyDem]

71. I did read the post ...

and the OP clearly states that she will not vote for a man:

If there is not a female on this presidential ticket I will have to abstain from voting in the GE. Why? Because a lifetime of voting for all men for presidents is enough.

While I agree with the OP that women have been underrepresented and I would also love to see a woman in the Oval Office, I think it's silly to support (or not support) a candidate based on gender. If she has other problems with Obama, that's fine ... but to stay home if he's the nominee because "a lifetime of voting for all men for presidents is enough" is counter-productive. Women are certainly not going to make any great strides forward with John McCain in the WH.

I will vote for Hillary if she gets the nomination. Honestly, I won't be happy about it because I have issues with her just like the OP has issues with Obama, but my vote will not be based on her gender: it will be based on her party affiliation. We need a Democrat in the WH ... period. :-)


edited: typo :blush:

[Captain_Nemo]

106. Then you didn't take into consideration then things I listed about him and his

background that don't match my politics: Cheney's energy bill, his health insurance plan, his dubious relationship for 19 years with Rezko. And his lack of doing ANYTHING for women.

I'll stick with Hillary. At least she deems women's reproductive rights important enough to proudly put on her website.
Barack is too afraid of alienating his religious right followers.

[BattyDem]

125. I respect that, even if I disagree.

But you said you won't vote a man because "a lifetime of voting for all men for presidents is enough" and I just don't understand that because McCain (or any Republican) is going to be far worse for women than any Dem. :-(

About Obama's web site: I thought the same thing you did ... that he was ignoring women's rights. I even posted a thread about it several weeks ago. However, I have since discovered that women's issues, including reproductive rights, are featured on his web site in their own section. link

These are the primaries and of course, you need to support the candidate that you believe in. I feel the same way ... but if Hillary gets the nomination, I will vote for her. As a woman, I'm frightened of what another Republican president will do to my rights. That's why I hope you'll reconsider your decision to stay home if Hillary doesn't get the nomination. I know you think Obama is the wrong Democrat for the job ... but even the "wrong" Democrat is better than a Republican. :-)

[rodeodance]

59. nice post thanks.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. Clinton voted against a ban on cluster bombs.

Do a Google search on cluster bombs and see what they do to children. Remember that she votes like that to appear "tough" and so as not to displease the AIPAC lobby.

[undeterred]

63. Principles, not principals.

Hillary doesn't have principles, she has politics. And she doesn't give a hoot about the suffering of Iraqi women.

[BootinUp]

68. nice post. eom.

[loveangelc]

69. is it now a valid argument to say it's time for a black president?

because I rarely see that argument being made. The "it's time for a female president" line is so very dumb.

[Captain_Nemo]

109. I think Skinner wrote a piece about how great it is that we might have an African American but Skinn

Skinner didn't think it quite the same about having a female president. (she didn't write about the fact that its the first time in history a women has gotten this far.)

[loveangelc]

159. The thing is, Hillary can make an issue of being the first woman but Barack cannot

make an issue of being the first african american explicitly because it will make some voters ~scared~ I guess...

I just think the idea of voting for someone based on them being a female or half black is ridiculous.

[HockeyMom]

70. After 8 years of BUSH,

it's time for a DEMOCRATIC candidate, whether that is a African-American man, or a woman. We can make history either way.

The way I feel, either of our candidates is certainly better than an old, white, Republican man.

We have a win/win situation. I voted for Obama, but I will gladly support Hillary, who I voted for twice for NY Senator, if she is our candidate.

[Adams Wulff]

185. HockeyMom, I love you.

Thanks for that!

[LadyVT]

73. Well done!! K & R

[benld74]

79. K&R

About effin time I saw something like this on this site. Obama, Obama, Obama is all I hear all the time and frankly I am sick and tired of it. I confess, I have posted that a black man would be president before a woman, but I sure the hell won't be casting any vote in his direction. Even if he gets the nomination, I will stick Democratic, don't get me wrong, But I will be wathcin him like a hawk.

[Captain_Nemo]

169. Thanks, blacks got the vote fifty years before women did because white women helped.

[Captain_Nemo]

171. I meant "black men" got the vote and white women helped. (Please don't vilify me for a wrong fact.)

[dysfunctional press]

81. so- if the election in november is between barack obama and condi rice- you'll vote for rice?

or do you only mean one particular woman? :shrug:

[Adams Wulff]

187. 'Crickets' n/t

[redstate_democrat]

87. yawn

:boring:

[Zhade]

88. Sure, but not THIS one.

No one who thinks they get to choose their presidential powers deserves to be president.

[RBInMaine]

89. This is NOT about gender. Too bad you have to play this card.

[Captain_Nemo]

172. No the campaign is about president. The reaction to the primary is about gender.

[cooolandrew]

90. Cheney's energy bill was before Obama entered office.Dems represent women more than any party.

[Captain_Nemo]

97. NO! cheney's Energy Bill was when Barack was in the Senate. Check your facts please before you vote

[Garbo 2004]

91. I find it "sad" some Dems would sit out 2008 & not fight a Repub in the GE & dismiss a likely SCOTUS

vacancy/appointment during the next administration. Well actually, I find it more than just "sad." After the last 7 years, WTF is the matter with people?

I wasn't and am not thrilled with either (D) candidate. But I'll vote for the Dem nominee this November since this election is not just about me. Despite my deep cynicism about politicians, the political process and the powers behind the scenes, I still think the more likely greater good is with the Dems, however flawed and yes, compromised, they may be. Hillary said I think something to the effect of "Let's get real." Well yes, let's do "get real."

The Repubs are in disarray and are trying to unite while burdened with a "legacy" of the last 7 years that the country is fed up with. They are vulnerable on so many fronts, most of them long standing tenets of conservatives. Fiscal prudence? A nation burdened with national debt and much of it owed to (Communist) China. Taxes? Tax cuts and "incentives" for the wealthy and corporations so the working folks get to bear a disproportionate tax burden. And working folks are the "consumers" who help keep this economy going, by the way. National security? Allowed 9\11 on their watch and then squandered our military, national wealth and the lives of those who swore an oath and their lives to this nation on an invasion of a country that had nothing to do with it. And then let Iraq become a "catastrophic success," a boon to war profiteers (with our tax dollars) as well as a recruitment poster for extremists across the world. Keeping the power of the Fed gov't in check? The Bush administration increased the power of an imperial presidency and Federal government while repudiating limitations of that power in the Constitution, Federal Law and conscience. They've got a damned shitty legacy to run on.

The Republicans need a fractured Dem party. Have no doubt, the Republicans won't stand on "core principles" and the fight for the Dem, whoever it will be, in the GE will be tough. Despite all that is against them, they will try to pull it out.

A Repub administration and SCOTUS won't give a flying shit about working mothers (or fathers), health care for all, separation of church and state, limitation of corporate power, habeas corpus, civil liberties or your "core principals."

For those who say they won't vote for the Dem nominee, then go ahead and stand aside. Hillary's a fighter? Well then good, because in whatever capacity she may be by that time, the nation will need her and everyone else who gives a shit about the Constitution and the rule of law in the GE. And the rest of those who want to stand on "principles" and not "sully" themselves by working and voting in the GE for the Dem candidate (and I've seen this from a few supporters of Hillary and Obama), if you won't stand up then just stand fucking aside while the rest of us do fight against another four years of a Repubican administration that will carry on the Bush legacy. And if the Dems are successful in the 2008 GE, come back and then bugger the hell out of them with your core principles. If the last 7 years are instructive, it is not "politics as usual" and we cannot afford to be complacent or indifferent.

[Muzza]

92. Indeed!

I am male.

I am sick and tired of living in a world ruled by ARROGANT men. And yet again, we have another one - King Obama - vying for the highest job in the land. The sexism that has been evident throughout this presidential campaign - from Obama himself, his cult-like supporters, and the mainstream media - has disgusted and enraged me. It's a sad indictment on contemporary society when a woman with decades of public service experience and a proven political record is displaced by a smooth-talking, done-nothing, MALE preacher with highly questionable ethics! Should I be surprised? Probably not. This is the nature of patriarchy and male dominance. Any woman who votes against Hillary Clinton (given that she is the more qualified candidate in this job selection process) is voting for the ongoing oppression of all women. Think about that.

[RememberWellstone]

93. Agreed!

I totally agree with you whoelheartedly..time for real change from the boyz network.

[ProSense]

94. She voted to extend Bush's tax cuts

Senate’s Tax Cuts for the Wealthy

Voted YES on retaining reduced taxes on capital gains & dividends.

Vote to reduce federal spending by $56.1 billion over five years by retaining a reduced tax rate on capital gains and dividends, as well as.

• Decreasing the number of people that will be required to pay the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)
  
• Allowing for deductions of state and local general sales taxes through 2007 instead of 2006
  
• Lengthening tax credits for research expenses
  
• Increasing the age limit for eligibility for food stamp recipients from 25 to 35 years
  
• Continuing reduced tax rates of 15% and 5% on capital gains and dividends through 2010
  
• Extending through 2007 the expense allowances for environmental remediation costs (the cost of cleanup of sites where petroleum products have been released or disposed)]

Status: Bill passed Bill passed, 66-31

link

Roll Call

Voted YES on extending the tax cuts on capital gains and dividends.

This large piece of legislation (418 pages) includes numerous provisions, generally related to extending the tax cuts initiated by President Bush. This vote was on final passage of the bill. The specific provisions include:

1. Extension Of Expiring Provisions: for business expenses, retirement savings contributions, higher education expenses, new markets tax credit, and deducting state and local sales taxes.
   
2. Provisions Relating To Charitable Donations, and Reforming Charitable Organizations
   
3. Improved Accountability of Donor Advised Funds
   
4. Improvements in Efficiency and Safeguards in IRS Collection

Opponents of the bill recommend voting NAY because: Health care for children (among many other things) should come before tax cuts for the wealthy.

The 2-year cost of the extensions on capital gains tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans is $20 billion. So if we defer the tax break the administration is pushing for the wealthiest people in America, we would have enough money to provide basic health insurance for every uninsured child in America, and we would eliminate 20% of the uninsured Americans with that single act alone.

Proponents of the bill recommend voting YEA because: The largest provision in the bill--about $30 billion of tax relief--amounts to half of the net tax package and is designed to keep 14 million people out of the Alternative Minimum Tax. The AMT is terrible and should be repealed.

College tuition benefits for families who send their kids to college -- by definition, this benefit goes to middle-income families.

The small savers' credit -- for low-income folks that save through an IRA or pension plan.

Many small businesses use the small business expensing benefit to buy equipment on an efficient after-tax basis. It is good for small business. It is good for economic growth. Reference: Tax Relief Act of 2005; Bill S. 2020 ; vote number 2005-347 on Nov 18, 2005

link

Roll Call

Also: 1. Kyl-Lieberman 2. 2001 bankruptcy bill 3. Clutter bombs ban

[monomach]

95. I refuse to vote for someone just because they have a vagina.

How about I vote for the one who isn't a dirty negative campaigner instead?

[Exultant Democracy]

96. Sounds like you are a sexist bigot. I don't respect men or women who think

like you. Sorry but if you vote based on the color of someones skin, religion, or gonads then you are part of the problem.

[Captain_Nemo]

103. I disagree. Voting and not having the open mindedness to look at the problems and see links

between girls not having images of themselves in power positions and the lowly status of women around the world is to be blind to something that is right on front of your eyes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lissa-muscatine-and-melanne-verveer/hillarys-unprecedented-e_b_76883.html

"Anyone who doubts Hillary Clinton's international experience might consult with democracy activists in the Slovak Republic, who remember when she stood in solidarity with them and publicly challenged their new government's suppression of civil society.

They might talk to women - from the Philippines to Latin America to the Middle East - who can vote, own property, or go to school, because Hillary Clinton helped start a global women's movement for women's rights. Or they might travel to Africa and Asia, where Hillary Clinton visited countless remote villages to show how the poorest of the poor could become entrepreneurial and self-sufficient when given access to small loans.

In the heat of presidential campaign politics, candidates on both sides dismiss a First Lady's work as insignificant to foreign policy. But in Hillary Clinton's case, such a presumption is not only wrong, it trivializes the important global issues of human rights, democracy, and international development that are so central to strengthening American values and influence overseas and are hallmarks of her exhaustive work around the world.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[ErnestoG]

118. This is an odd view coming from someone who wants a gender-free judgement in politics

You turn right around and suggest it should be the basis for a president.

Weird.

[Exultant Democracy]

143. Bigots always have rationalizations for their bigotry . n/t

[Recursion]

102. If you want a female president...

...bring forward a female candidate that a majority of voters like and trust.

It's really that simple.

I could care less about the race or gender of the President; I want somebody who can get shit done.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

104. Yuo would have loved to have voted for Margaret Thatcher

[Captain_Nemo]

108. How come I don't see these two issues discussed since I listed the:

His health care plan is much less than Hillary's

Paul Krugman: Clinton’s plan ‘would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's.' "Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton’s would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's... And both plans seek to make insurance affordable to lower-income Americans. The Clinton plan is, however, more explicit about affordability, promising to limit insurance costs as a percentage of family income. And it also seems to include more funds for subsidies.

He voted for Cheney's eenrgy bill which gave 6 billion in subsidies to oil companies:

Obama voted for Bush's 2005 energy bill that contained $6 billion in oil and gas subsidies. In 2005, Obama voted twice for Bush's Energy Bill, HR 6. It contained $6 billion in oil and gas subsidies. Hillary voted against the bill.

---

[eridani]

113. But not one who voted in favor of cluster bombs. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

115. out of fifty states we have one black governor.

out of fifty states we have one black senator.
what does that tell you?

[Captain_Nemo]

116. For those who didn't read the entire post. Yes, I am voting for her becasue she is female AND she

stands for things I believe in. I listed them in the original post and I will recap here:

She didn't vote for Cheney's energy bill and her health care plan is far superior to his. The fact that she's is a female makes it all the better for me.
If I am left with all male tickets again (and the candidate whose health care pan I do not like) then I will abstain. I mean, really, why should I continue to encourage this sexist parade of all men in the Oval Office? I shouldn't have to.

Here are facts that tell me she is a better candidate.

His health care plan is much less than Hillary's

Paul Krugman: Clinton’s plan ‘would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's.' "Specifically, new estimates say that a plan resembling Mrs. Clinton’s would cover almost twice as many of those now uninsured as a plan resembling Mr. Obama's... And both plans seek to make insurance affordable to lower-income Americans. The Clinton plan is, however, more explicit about affordability, promising to limit insurance costs as a percentage of family income. And it also seems to include more funds for subsidies.

He voted for Cheney's eenrgy bill which gave 6 billion in subsidies to oil companies:

Obama voted for Bush's 2005 energy bill that contained $6 billion in oil and gas subsidies. In 2005, Obama voted twice for Bush's Energy Bill, HR 6. It contained $6 billion in oil and gas subsidies. Hillary voted against the bill.

---

[Johnny__Motown]

119. 4 democratic women governors (one from canada) You can't even count?

Janet Napolitano
Ruth Ann Miller
Kathleen Sebelus
(Jennifer Grandholm)



http://www.democraticgovernors.org/governors

[Captain_Nemo]

123. This nastiness is a hallmark if DU. I will ignore it.

[anonymous171]

133. What nastiness?

Do you consider being called out on poor research is "nasty"?

[Johnny__Motown]

135. I could have been more diplomatic, distorted facts piss me off is all

[Captain_Nemo]

160. I am just finally pointing out an opinion that MANY women have been thinking. this

This is a historic election for us. For the first time in our lives we could vote for a female. It felt different in the voting booth. There has always been this feeling of being on the outside of politics in my own country as a female. We voted for men and we have to fight for basic rights (abortion, birth control).

I thought "If we have a female president - and Hillary has worked tirelessly for women and children for years - then we just might get the so-called "soft issues (women's rights and children's rights and poverty) put on the front burner."

That changes us.

and, I wanted to bring it up on DU. The feelings of powerlessness all of our lives - could be somewhat alleviated. Barack does not inspire these feelings in me. I here the male dominated language and I think "another man running for president appeasing groups he doesn't believe in."

The sad thing is that the press has really given him a pass and villifying her.

That has an effect on women too. and it really has an effect on every girl who is watching. Every girl who dares to achieve the highest goals.

I hope she wins.

[Recursion]

165. So you'd vote for Elizabeth Dole? Or Olympia Snowe?

Or Kay Baily Hutchinson?

[Captain_Nemo]

168. Your questions to me never take into account the entirety of my original post. Look at the list.

[Recursion]

170. I don't see what her being a woman has to do with your list

You want someone who is progressive on women's and children's issues. Sounds like your first choice would be Kucinich, then Edwards, then pretty much a tie between Clinton and Obama.

[Tatiana]

120. So if Condi was running for President, you would.....? n/t

[Captain_Nemo]

122. Trying to get me thrown off of DU? Also, read the entire post. I put all of the reasons

why I prefer her.
In short:
Her work with women and children (Obama has not done the same)
She did not vote for Cheney's Energy bill (Obama did)
Her health Care plan is better.
He courts the religious right (she doesn't)

I think Condi wouldn't even be in this list.

Comparing Barack and Hillary - Hillary is smarter, more experienced and I like her plan for health care. He is too much of a compromiser and I don't trust that in a politician.

So, if it comes down to all male tickets again in a presidential campaign - I just can't do it.

[NDambi]

198. "Hillary is smarter,"

Do you have a link to prove such a statement?

[fizzgig]

126. why? because we both have vaginas?

i cannot believe you'd rather have a republican in the white house than vote for a male democratic candidate.

you want to set reproductive rights back simply because the dem nominee doesn't have the right plumbing? you want to set back the rights of everyone other than the rich and the corporations simply because the dem nominee is a man?

you would rather have a government cram it's way into MY vagina rather than vote for a dem without one?

[Captain_Nemo]

128. Wow, frankly, Barack's male dominated religious talk doesn't exactly make me feel too

comfortable with his dedication to women's issues. I am not 100% sure of his left leaning politics:

he voted for Cheney's Energy Bill
His health care plan isn't very good
he courts the religious right

Frankly, I don't trust him with a four trillion dollar deficit and he has NO military experience.

I am not comfortable with this guy.

[fizzgig]

129. so you are more comfortable with a republican?

:shrug:

[anonymous171]

131. Oh, so now

Hillary has tons of military experience? It's fine if you aren't comfortable with him, vote you conscience, but please don't project your fantasy's onto everything.

What's wrong with courting the evangelical vote(not the same thing as the religious right)?

[Captain_Nemo]

136. She is impressive on military matters. Do the research on her. And, as far as courting

religious evangelical voters...You drum up the anti-woman sentiments and beliefs in them. Reagan drummed them up and it led to the uprisings in the 80's against the women's health clinics.

He will have to thank them for their votes if he is elected. He will owe them something.

Hillary is not wooing them.

[Recursion]

138. Do you know what "evangelical" means?

I suspect you don't, from that comment.

Also, you don't seem to know much about women in politics, since upthread you say the first female Congresswoman was in 1985 (you're 70 years off).

[anonymous171]

141. Obama doesn't play the favor game

like Hillary does. We support him because we want him to help AMERICA, not our individual agenda. Not that those who support Hillary do so out of greed or pure self-interest.

[Captain_Nemo]

167. Oh really? I think you need to catch up on this:

You might want ot read every article of tim Novak's in the Chicago Sun times about Rezko. It's an eye-opener

2. Obama took a job in 1993 with a small Chicago law firm, Davis Miner Barnhill, that represents developers -- primarily not-for-profit groups -- building low-income housing with government funds.

3. One of the firm's not-for-profit clients -- the Woodlawn Preservation and Investment Corp., co-founded by Obama's then-boss Allison Davis -- was partners with Rezko's company in a 1995 deal to convert an abandoned nursing home at 61st and Drexel into low-income apartments. Altogether, Obama spent 32 hours on the project, according to the firm. Only five hours of that came after Rezko and WPIC became partners, the firm says. The rest of the future senator's time was helping WPIC strike the deal with Rezko. Rezko's company, Rezmar Corp., also partnered with the firm's clients in four later deals -- none of which involved Obama, according to the firm. In each deal, Rezmar "made the decisions for the joint venture," says William Miceli, an attorney with the firm.

4. In 1995, Obama began campaigning for a seat in the Illinois Senate. Among his earliest supporters: Rezko. Two Rezko companies donated a total of $2,000. Obama was elected in 1996 -- representing a district that included 11 of Rezko's 30 low-income housing projects.

5. Rezko's low-income housing empire began crumbling in 2001, when his company stopped making mortgage payments on the old nursing home that had been converted into apartments. The state foreclosed on the building -- which was in Obama's Illinois Senate district.

6. In 2003, Obama announced he was running for the U.S. Senate, and Rezko -- a member of his campaign finance committee -- held a lavish fund-raiser June 27, 2003, at his Wilmette mansion.

7. A few months after Obama became a U.S. senator, he and Rezko's wife, Rita, bought adjacent pieces of property from a doctor in Chicago's Kenwood neighborhood -- a deal that has dogged Obama the last two years. The doctor sold the mansion to Obama for $1.65 million -- $300,000 below the asking price. Rezko's wife paid full price -- $625,000 -- for the adjacent vacant lot. The deals closed in June 2005. Six months later, Obama paid Rezko's wife $104,500 for a strip of her land, so he could have a bigger yard. At the time, it had been widely reported that Tony Rezko was under federal investigation. Questioned later about the timing of the Rezko deal, Obama called it "boneheaded" because people might think the Rezkos had done him a favor."

http://www.suntimes.com/news/watchdogs/757340,CST-NWS-watchdog24.article

[ErnestoG]

134. So you'd prefer war friendly, PNAC friendly Hillary?

That's odd for a "progressive"

[Captain_Nemo]

139. And voting for Barack is odd for a progressive too: Pro Cheney's Energy bill Barack. Why

do you think Nader is getting in the mix?

Because Barack has shitloads of corporate money and he is a sleazy Chicago politican!

[NDambi]

199. Uh, in all fairness...Nadar bashed them both..HRC didn't escape his wrath...

[RunningFromCongress]

137. Out of 50 states there is 1 black governor and 1 black senator

But I don't know why that stat would matter.

Do you understand what equality means? It means that i don't give a shit that Obama is black or Hillary is a woman. Sex/Race should have NOTHING to do with your voting priorities, else you are just being sexist/racist in your own way.

[Captain_Nemo]

142. And women are 50.7 percent of the population. AA's are 12.8 percent. Women cross all

racial boundaries. So, I want a female to really even out the playing field.

[RunningFromCongress]

145. Again, the fact she's a woman has NO RELEVANCE. To say it does is sexist.

Her sex only becomes relevant if she is elected as it would clearly show that sex DOESN'T matter. Same thing applies to Obama when it comes to race. Voting for a woman, because it's a woman is SEXIST. Period.

[Captain_Nemo]

177. And I think you are not being honest as to the unprecedented nature of this primary

Two groups who have been underrepresented and oppressed are going for the top spot. You are blind if you don't think people's gender adn race comes into this. Both women adn African Americans want to see themselves represented in teh WH.

[Blondiegrrl]

140. Wow ... your logic is just ... illogical.

Voting for someone just because she is a woman goes against the core definition of feminism. Women deserve equal treatment, not special treatment.

I, for one, chose to vote for Barack Obama because I believe he's the superior candidate. Gender, skin color, etc., does not affect my decision. It's irrelevant.

[Captain_Nemo]

144. Your superior candidate voted for Cheney's energy bill + has a shitty health care plan. Progressive?

[Blondiegrrl]

173. Garnish people's wages to FORCE them to buy insurance?

Who exactly has a shitty healthcare plan?

Hey, we could play the game all day over who has the better platform. My point was that you claim to be voting for Hillary strictly because she's a woman.

[Captain_Nemo]

175. Maybe you should watch the debate and learn about your candidates health care plan.

[DDQ]

182. Hillary is the best candidate.

I am tired of people assuming that if we vote for her it is only because she is a woman.

I delieve she is the best person for president.

I see the reverse happenng---that people are not voting for her because she is a woman.

I think some people don't even realize it. Others are more aware of it. Some even come out and say it.

[JimGinPA]

147. You Must Be Really Proud Of This Thread, Since You Keep Kicking It Yourself

:eyes:

[Captain_Nemo]

151. I don't know what that means. I am not kicking anything. I am responding to people.

[Hippo_Tron]

149. To answer your first question, Barbara Boxer

[Captain_Nemo]

153. Perhaps, but her liberalness would just get her kicked around visciously. Hillary does possess

The right qualifications to be a strong match against a republican.

It is so nice to have a nice response to my post. DU is a really hard and kind of rotten place.

It is so important to get women into office. I am not sure I will see another viable female candidate in my lifetime.

[Hippo_Tron]

176. I think you will see another viable woman candidate the next time Democrats have an open primary

Hillary's lack of success thus far has not been about gender, it has been about the fact that she marketed herself as the safe choice and people this time around happened to not want the safe choice. That isn't going to deter women in the future from running and frankly we have a lot of them.

Yes there are more men in the Senate and Governor's mansions but frankly a good number of them are too old or not charismatic enough to ever have a shot at the presidency. Joe Biden and Chris Dodd look like the typical male Senator and their presidential campaigns sank like an anchor. Even with Hillary in the race I think that Janet Napolitano, Kathleen Sebelius, Claire McCaskill, Barbara Boxer or several other female candidates would've fared far better than Dodd, Biden, Richardson, and maybe even Edwards.

There are more viable presidential candidates per capita among female elected officials than among male elected officials. There are more women being elected to office all of the time.

[AGirl]

150. I agree....with your points.

I have to agree..

[Captain_Nemo]

155. So nice to hear. I have been getting bashed for telling my honest beliefs about being a female in U

USA. Not much intellectual discussion here at Du, eh?

[AGirl]

179. I understand it, its important to express our honest opinons.

[progressive_realist]

158. I'd just like to brag for a moment

Even though your stat on the number of female governors is too low by far, my state is the only one with both a female Governor and two female Senators. The rest of you have some catching up to do. :)

For the record, current female Governors:

Sarah Palin, AK
Janet Napolitano, AZ
M. Jodi Rell, CT
Ruth Ann Minner, DE
Linda Lingle, HI
Kathleen Sebelius, KS
Jennifer Granholm, MI
Christine Gregoire, WA


Current female Senators:

Lisa Murkowski, AK
Blanche Lincoln, AR
Dianne Feinstein, CA
Barbara Boxer, CA
Mary Landrieu, LA
Olympia Snowe, ME
Susan Collins, ME
Barbara Mikulski, MD
Debbie Stabenow, MI
Amy Klobuchar, MN
Claire McCaskill, MO
Hillary Clinton, NY
Elizabeth Dole, NC
Kay Bailey Hutchison, TX
Patty Murray, WA
Maria Cantwell, WA

[Captain_Nemo]

161. thank you - I misspoke on that and I have been getting the nastiest responses.

[casus belli]

178. This is unintentional sexism.

To suggest we need a woman for president just because we've never had one before and you feel it's overdue is a subtle form of sexism. How about you just say, we should be open to voting for the best candidate, without regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

Just because there are flavors you haven't tried, it doesn't necessarily follow that they taste better than the ones you have. I have been pretty surprised to find that many Hillary supporters are more guilty of sexist statements than many of those they accuse of the same. In fact, those charges of sexism, in the absence of any real evidence that the poster is sexist, is in fact sexist itself. If Hillary is the best choice for you, then great. But, if you're only voting for her because you feel a woman in the whitehouse is overdue, then you may want to take a closer look at that. Until we can make a decision without regard to prequalifications, sexism, racism and other forms of intolerance will carry on, often unintentionally by those who would say they seek to end it.

Ultimately, whatever you do...all the best to you.

[OneBlueSky]

180. I agree . . . as long as it's not Hillary Clinton . . . n/t

.

[donheld]

181. I, too, agree . . . as long as it's not Hillary Clinton . . . n/t

[AtomicKitten]

183. I agree; just not this particular female for president.

[NDambi]

186. It's time for a Black President...whooo hooo..

Oh goodness...let's vote gender and race...what the hell

[MadHound]

190. I agree, it is time for a female president, just not this particular female president.

She is too much of a warmonger, too much of a corporate stooge. Sorry, but I can't get past her IWR vote, her support for the war, and her support of Kyle/Lieberman. Nor can I get past such things as her support of the Patriot Act and NCLB.

But you're right, it is time for a female president, but not Hillary.

As far as not voting for Obama because he is male, well gee, isn't that the same sort of sexism that you purportedly cry foul over. How is that going to help matters? And by not voting for Obama, aren't you really simply allowing McCain, another male, into office. Sorry, but you're being sexist with this statement, and aren't making any sort of sense.

[DDQ]

194. Thanks Captain Nemo It is Indeed Time for a Female President

I too believe Hillary is the best candidate. I saw her speak in Washington State right after Super Tuesday. I was very impressed with her. I trust her to be a voice for those who need advocacy.

I have voted 8 times for a male democratic president--even when I felt disenfranchised by the democratic party.

I believe many people are not voting for Hillary because she is a woman....and that the MSM has bashed Hillary again because she is a woman.

I am sick of the sexism and misogyny that has come to the forefront because of this election. It is also a wake up call to me that the sexism and misogyny seems firmly entrenched in the democratic party.

I believe many people share your feelings.

[dmac]

200. Long but interesting read.....

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20070604&s=berman

[Eurobabe]

201. Oh boy.

:eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

203. I would vote for Barbara Boxer.

I will not vote for Hillary.

[Political Heretic]

204. Interesting "facts." I don't pick presidents on race or gender.

Then I look at the facts:

1. She voted against Cheney's energy bill and Obama voted for it. (6 billion in subsidies for oil companies.)

Yup - bad vote.

2. He has consistently voted to fund the war the entire time he has been in the Senate. (anti-war?)

So did she. I can respect someone believing that de-funding the war and giving the president the opportunity to let my best friend rot in Iraq without support might not be the best way to get our troops home. So I won't penalize either candidate for it too much. However, what he didn't do was vote for the IWR. She did. Period.

3. She has consistently worked to better the lives of women and children around the world (look it up if you don't believe it.)

And she is to be commended.

4. She has women's rights on her website and Obama does not

Yes, he does.

5. Barack courts the religious right with his male dominated language that promotes male domination in religion (I've had enough of that for a lifetime, actually.)

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. As a person of faith and a radical leftist, I don't take well to such stupid sweeping generalizations.

6. Barack has a shitload of corporate money behind him

By the numbers, not as much as Hillary Clinton. So choosing her over him for this reason is illogical. There may be other reasons, but this one is contrary to reason.

7. His health care plan covers children but not their mothers? Wow, that makes sense!

The differences in their health care policies are an honest debate. I don't like her program, but I understand some do. Might be a reason to vote for her.

8. He can trash Wal Mart in a debate with Hillary but there are many americans who cannot afford to purchase from anywhere else.

Yeah like me last year. That doesn't change the fact that Wal-Mart deserves to be trashed. What should be done is looking for ways to improve the lives of americans who don't have other options. Both candidates are talking about how to do that. The "wal-mart" point is contrary to reason.


9. Read the Chicago Sun Times and search for "Rezko Obama." Then read every article. (that's all I need to say)

Read Media Matters complete debunking of the Rezko bullshit. Read every point. (that's all I need to say.)

"Lastly, In all honesty - and I mean this:
If there is not a female on this presidential ticket I wil have to abstain from voting in the GE. Why? Because a lifetime of voting for all men for presidents is enough."

That's fine, I just wish you could be flown to Iraq and stand nose to nose with my friends son, or my own best friend and explain to them why you're OK with leaving them there to die under a McCain presidency.

[Kitty Herder]

205. Yes, we do need a female President. But we don't need Hillary.

She's so entrenched in the corporate establishment that she I don't think she can find her way out of it.

[crawfish]

206. Why do you hate African-Americans?

;)