I can't believe I've finally decided between Clinton and Obama.

[last1standing]

I supported Edwards and since he dropped out of the race, I've been trying to find something that could get me to support one of the remaining candidates over the other. Both have good qualities and both have bad. For me they're both far too "moderate" and have not really been addressing the most important issues we face as a nation in any substantive way. However, after the non-denial by the Clinton team regarding the picture of Obama in Somali garb and reports that they are smearing Obama with the Jewish community, I have to come down on the side of Obama for the election.

I'm not so very starry eyed that I think that any negative campaigning is evil. Nor do I think that Obama has played a clean game. Personally, I think we need someone who can throw some effective dirt if we're to stand any chance in the general election. My problem with the Clinton team's methods, though, is that they are scorched earth tactics. Clinton is making sure that if she does not win the nomination, Obama will never stand a chance in November. I think too much of Clinton to believe this is for spite, but I do believe its in order to ensure herself another run in 2012 instead of 2016 when she may feel she will be too old. Unfortunately, that will mean another four years under a repub and it will be the fault of Clinton when this happens. I can't support this so my vote goes to Obama. The devastation of our economy under four (or eight) more years of "trickle-down" economics, free-trade policies and deregulation is unacceptable to me. Therefore, I will never support Clinton in any nomination process again. The health of our nation is far more important than the future of her political career.

And when all the flamers come in to practice their own miniature versions of scorched earth tactics I won't respond, only click the "ignore" button.

[Occam Bandage]

1. Thanks for your post. You're right that Clinton's repugnant tactics are electoral suicide.

[Independent-Voter]

2. Very clear, objective look at things from at JE point of view. Great post.

[Yael]

3. Welcome to the team, fellow Edwards refugee

[grantcart]

42. let me second tht

[Metric System]

4. Wow, you've already declared that Hillary's guilty before she's even done the crime. Ugh. n/t

[last1standing]

7. multiple confirmations and a non-denial are enough for me.

And just a small point but it would be "Wow, you've already declared that Hillary's guilty before it's even been proved. Ugh." The crime has been committed already, you see, and in any court she'd have a hard time beating back the charge. It's the equivalent of:

Prosecution: Mrs. Clinton, did you do the crime?

Clinton: He's a really bad man!

Prosecution: But did you smear your opponent with out of context photographs?

Clinton: He wore those things! I saw him!

Prosecution: We have multiple witnesses confirming you did it.

Clinton: Why won't he debate me more often?!!!


But, of course you and others will say that there is no "proof" her campaign did this even with multiple sources confirming it. That's your right, but it's also mine to see what's happened and to make an informed decision. If you can't stand that then I'd suggest you not read my posts.

Thank you.

[Metric System]

9. I was referring to this: "I think too much of Clinton to believe this is for spite, but I do believe

its in order to ensure herself another run in 2012 instead of 2016"

You have no proof of THAT claim.

[last1standing]

13. Nope. It's hard to prove a "belief".

And that's exactly what I said, it's a belief. However, I think it's a logical one based on the fact that she's either doing it because she is a petty, spiteful person or she's looking at her career over her country. I prefer to think she's not so petty.


Edited to change "proof" to "prove".

[FlyingSquirrel]

47. IMO, it would be better if she were being "petty" or "spiteful"

I am coming in late on all this so I'm only speaking in hypotheticals since I have not seen the evidence nor even the so-called smears. But if someone were attacking their opponent, and doing so in the knowledge that they themselves had little chance of winning the GE this year, then I'd prefer that it be out of spite as opposed to a cold calculation with complete lack of concern for the welfare of the country over the next four years. That would be worse IMO.

[SCantiGOP]

5. me too

my wife and I both voted for Edwards in the SC primary, I was an Obama supporter within a few days and my wife switched from Clinton to Obama a few days after that. It's called momentum.

[CountAllVotes]

6. same here

I too was going to vote for Edwards. I decided on Sen. Obama being he wants to get us the hell out of Iraq!

:kick:

[saracat]

8. I think it is very sad that you have voted for misogyny.And I think it is sadder still that you

think her fight is only for herself yet somehow must have come to the conclusion that Obama is altruistic.The "scorched" earth that has been thrown at Clinton is much much worse that anything Obama has experienced. Clinton was not my favorite.I too was an Edwards supporter and originally ranked Obama second but as I observed his tactics and understood what he really stands for, If Hillary is not the nominee, it is likely I will sit this GE out, except for the down line.I will right in Edwards and go back to being ashamed of this country.Obama is nothing to be proud of.IMHO.It is very sad. I had begun to have real hope, not the empty kind.

[last1standing]

11. First insult. I'm a sexist for voting for Obama.

Ignore #1.

[saracat]

17. I didn't say that but if the shoe fits.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Keep it up.

I'm enjoying it.

[anigbrowl]

30. 'Voted for Misogyny'?! Explain.

[last1standing]

32. Why bother?

There are some Clinton supporters who will immediately say that a vote not for her is misogynous. But then there are some Obama supporters who will say a vote not for Obama is automatically racist. I just put both on ignore and go on to live my life. I'll never change their minds and I refuse to read their narrow minded posts. Life is better this way. :)

[apocalypsehow]

45. That translates from Hillarysupporterspeak into English as: "you don't back my candidate."

n/t

[apocalypsehow]

Former Edwards supporter here, too. Welcome! I agree with your post in its entirety.

n/t

[Iggo]

10. I can't believe it, either.

Really. I can't.

[damntexdem]

12. Just stick to your guns. Vote. Support a Dem in November.

This nightmare can end. And the flamers' flames will be just so much smoke drifting away on the wind.

[last1standing]

14. I'll be voting Dem in November, regardless.

Once again, the things I mentioned in the O/P are too important to let a repub have four more years of mismanagement. I just won't vote for Clinton in the nomination process, this year or in future. She's lost my primary support forever.

[RiverStone]

15. Welcome - good choice and good post.

Former Kucinich supporter here...

I do however think Obama will win in the GE - but it will be very close. :hi:

[Vinca]

16. Thank you. I suspect your reaction will be typical among undecideds. nt

[Araxen]

18. We'll win without you

don't let the door....

[last1standing]

19. Only two actual flamers so far. Not bad.

And thanks everyone who welcomed me aboard. I'll be sending in my first donation later today :)

[grantcart]

43. the rest are waiting for their memos

[MethuenProgressive]

20. It was in the National Enquirer (3 million readers) weeks ago. Why blame Clinton??

[Bongo Prophet]

23. Both Bill and Hillary loudly and repeated say Obama is not qualified to be president.

That, to me, is beyond the pale.
Especially since he has a good chance of being our nominee, this statement is a gift to the Repubs, and a betrayal of our party and country.

Beyond all the outrage, real or feigned.
Beyond any whisper campaigns and innuendo.
I cannot imagine a democrat with integrity, like Kerry, Gore or Carter ever saying such a thing.

But both Clintons are now doing that, and repeatedly.
When I saw Bill on c-span shaking his finger and saying that, from the back of a pickup in Texas - not that Hillary was better, that would be fine - something just clicked.
They have decided to go the low road, and I do not do the low road.
I defended them, and Chelsea, for so many years now, since 1991 - I did it because it was the honorable thing to do - to see what they are doing now makes me feel as if I have been played as a fool.

Both Bill and Hillary are so gifted, but have shown the last few weeks that they are also so very lacking in integrity.
I am more saddened by this than angry.


Ms Prophet and I were also leaning Edwards, since gore declined to run, but now there will be 2 more voting AND caucusing for Obama in Texas.

[last1standing]

24. Yeah, its become all about the Clintons.

I've defended them all for years as well - and would still defend Chelsea as she's not part of the problem that I can see - but I'm done now. I appreciate Bill for giving us some very good years (mixed with bad) during his tenure, but we need someone who will think about country first, ambition second. I don't see that in Hillary Clinton now. I used to.

[Bongo Prophet]

26. Yes, and unfortunately, most Hillary supporters will just say you hated them anyway.

This compounds my sadness, because they can't see the erosion of support is not "hate", but the realization over time of being manipulated.
When we needed integrity most, we get dismissal and betrayal.

[last1standing]

27. No doubt, but I'm sure it would have been the same if I had come out for Clinton.

There are more than enough immature fanatics in both camps trashing and insulting anyone who they imagine disagrees with them.

But you're right about the manipulation, dismissal and betrayal. The Clinton camp is taking us for a ride now and I want out of the car. It's time for them to ride off into the sunset before they completely destroy their once great legacy.

[Bongo Prophet]

35. I agree about some immature fanatics making ALL supporters look bad.

It is a real problem, and in addition to general assholish behavior of some (like the ground level radiation, or amount of floor sweepings in a wiener) there are freepers and others playing games with us.

I really try to keep that in mind, and I have people I respect on both sides, so that helps in keeping a balanced view of this.
Despite my disappointment in the negativity, I will not start being an ass to all supporters, and just join in what I despise.
Integrity requires that I stay on the high road, and I will strive to do so.

Thanks for the discourse, last1standing.
On to November.

[tpsbmam]

25. Exactly why I chose Obama....

Though there are some small differences in their records that made me lean toward Obama. These were small enough that I remained undecided for a long time. Like so many, Clinton earned my ire over some of her votes (Iraq, Kyl-Lieberman, etc) but I was still willing to consider her (after Edwards dropped out). And it wasn't this photo for those who aren't sure who leaked the photo. It was awhile back that the tone of Clinton's campaign completely turned me off, including her take on superdelegates and delegates in general.

Neither of these two candidates would have been my choice for nominee but given the choices we have in front of us, as the campaigns have progressed, it became clear to me not that I Obama was my guy but that I couldn't support Clinton.

[last1standing]

31. Its a shame we have to choose the lesser of evils in the primary, but we do.

I'm sure Obama will make a fine president. I just don't think he'll focus on the changes that need to be made to bring back the middle class and protect the poor from the robber baron corporations. There's a time for incremental changes and a time to fight the beast at the door and I'm afraid I hear something right outside.

Still, when the choice comes down, I'm not going to vote for someone who has chosen her ambition at the expense of the country and Clinton has done just that.

[JVS]

28. I'm so disgusted with her that if she were on fire, I wouldn't even piss to put it out.

[Independent-Voter]

33. Given Bill's predilection for freakiness with fucking interns, she might be into that pissing stuff

[TexasObserver]

29. welcome from another Edwards to Obama suporter,

[grasswire]

34. it's amazing how many people believe Drudge is credible

When the evidence is known to all of us that Drudge and his "insane clown posse" hammered the Clintons with vicious lies for nearly a decade.

Some of the lies used against the Clintons:

++ Bill molested Chelsea in the White House.

++ The WH Christmas tree was decorated with condoms.

++ Hillary's frigid.

Those are just a few. There was a full-time staff for opposition research and dirty tricks against the Clintons. Those people still exist, and they still use Drudge to spread the manure.

And yet some so-called Democrats willingly -- even gleefully! -- accept anything Drudge cares to fling.

Shame, shame, shame.

[last1standing]

36. CBS and Rawstory are also reporting it.

Are they cogs in the Drudge machine? Also, the Clinton camp has issued a non-denial which means they feel the story is worth commenting on but they know if they deny it they'll be caught lying. You can either hold on to an illusion that the Clinton camp didn't circulate the photo, despite all evidence to the contrary, or you can accept it and make an informed decision as to whether this is what you want in a candidate for president. I did and came up with my answer. You need to do the same.

Anything other than that really will be a shame.

[grasswire]

37. No.

They are reporting that Drudge reported it.

Has CBS done any original reporting on it?

Has Raw Story done any original reporting on it?

Did you read this at the bottom of Raw Story's story?

...

Supermarket tabloid The National Examiner reportedly ran the photo in its Feb. 4 issue. The photo appeared on right-wing message board Free Republic and conservative blog Sweetness & Light before Drudge picked it up. At least one Freeper recognized the need for wider distribution.

"Good Job,"a user on Free Republic said to the person who posted the tabloid pic. "t needs to get to Drudge,M.Malkin,Debbie Schussel etc....I want to see his explanation on this,"
....

And there it is. From Freerepublic to Drudge to others who quote Drudge.

Same old story. Wingnuts meddling in Democrats' business, causing trouble.

[last1standing]

38. So you're going to hold onto that illusion. Ok.

Just understand that some of us have given it up.

[David Zephyr]

39. Welcome. We need you.

Our enemy is John McCain and the GOP.

[Scurrilous]

40. K & R

:thumbsup:

[NastyRiffraff]

41. Well, somehow this has become a Hillary flame thread

But I'll reply anyway.

I applaud the fact that you're voting for a Democrat. I disagree with your choice, but it IS your choice. I think you're being unfair to Hillary, though, and THAT is not a flame. I very HIGHLY doubt that she wants to ensure a run in 2012, if Obama does win. That's my opinion, you have yours, but I think you're extrapolating (guessing?) quite a bit.

[last1standing]

46. I really hope you're right and I'm wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that I'm not.

Thanks for the post. It's always good to see civilized disagreement in this forum. :hi:

[bigbrother05]

44. From Edwards to Obama me and Mr bbo5 saw

the unraveling a while ago, Welcome aboard, and I am also hoping that the middle class and poor are taken care of.
I realize that there are alot of sound bites, but I am hoping he will deliver. And i/m willing to take the chance.

[Eurobabe]

48. Good decision

Hillary's latest scorched earth policies convinced me that I made the right choice after Biden dropped out. :hi: